The Problematic Story of the Woman with the Mattress
Posted on February 9th, 2015 in Uncategorized | 454 Comments »
In the Daily Beast, Cathy Young reports on the story of Paul Nungesser, the Columbia student at the center of that university’s sexual assault controversy; Nungesser was accused of varying levels of assault, from forced anal sex to “emotional abuse” to grabbing and trying to kiss a student, by three different women.
The most high-profile of them, of course, is Emma Sulkowicz, who says that Nungesser violently anally raped her and then got up and walked away without a word; to make a statement about the event, and fulfill her credits as a performance art major, Sulkowicz has been carrying her dorm room mattress around on campus. She has gotten a huge amount of supportive publicity, including a cover story in New York magazine and an appearance at President Obama’s recent state of the union, courtesy of New York senator Kirsten Gillibrand.
Nungesser first spoke out in a recent NYT article, which I found poorly reported and badly written. (More on this later, I hope.) Young’s piece has much more work behind it—and it raises serious questions about the accusations made by all three women, and particularly Emma Sulkowicz.
While Sulkowicz has always said that they started out having consensual sex, her account diverges drastically from Nungesser’s at this point. According to Sulkowicz, he suddenly and brutally assaulted her, then picked up his clothes and left without a word, leaving her stunned and shattered on the bed. According to Nungesser, they briefly engaged in anal intercourse by mutual agreement, then went on to engage in other sexual activity and fell asleep. He says that he woke up early in the morning and went back to his own room while Sulkowicz was still sleeping.
Sulkowicz has said in interviews that she was too embarrassed and ashamed to talk to anyone about the rape, let alone report it; an account of her mattress protest by New York Times art critic Roberta Smith says that she “suffered in silence” in the aftermath of the assault. Yet Nungesser says that for weeks after that night, he and Sulkowicz maintained a cordial relationship, and says she seemingly never indicated that anything was amiss.
(Hat tip to Young: that is an adroit use of the words “art critic.”)
Central to Nungesser’s account is the fact that he and Sulkowicz corresponded at length, on cordial and even flirty terms, for weeks after the alleged incident; he gives Young screenshots of long instant message “conversations” they had. Asked about these conversations, Sulkowicz acknowledged that they were accurate and offered to annotate them, then changed her mind. Her defenders have argued that people who are the victim of assault don’t always respond in predictable ways, which I’m sure is true.
Sulkowicz is now critizing the Daily Beast for posting these Facebook interactions and saying that the media has done her wrong; but as this writer points out in the New York Times, she doesn’t have a lot of ground to stand on—she sought out the media in the first place.
The stories of the other two women are also less than convincing; one sounds like the result of an intense but non-abusive relationship, and one sounds trumped up to try to have Nungesser expelled from a coed fraternity he was a member of. There’s some suggestion that the stories were coordinated.
A theme of the article is that Nungesser may be the real victim here, and it’s an argument that has to be taken at least as seriously as the argument that he is a serial sex offender. After all, he was outed by the Columbia student newspaper, among others. His life on campus was turned into one of suspicion and alienation and hostility from other students. He had to undergo a frustratingly opaque disciplinary process (which, despite the low “preponderance of evidence” standard, nonetheless did not act all the accusations—I was going to say “cleared him of…” but I don’t know if Columbia’s process actually does that).
Most provocatively, Nungesser argues that Sulkowicz’s decision to carry her mattress around campus is in fact a form of harassment, designed to shame him and force him to leave the university. Whether or not he did anything, I think he’s right about that.
As a free speech near-absolutist, I would say that Sulkowicz has the right to carry her mattress, and the best response is to speak out in your defense in public, which Nungesser has now done, twice.
But I would also point out that if a male student carried out such a highly visible campaign directed at shaming a female student, you can be sure that he would have long before been charged with harassment by her defenders. Imagine if Nungesser started taping transcripts of his conversations with Sulkowicz to campus bulletin boards; campus sexual assault activists would go ballistic. Yet if she has the right to attack him in public, doesn’t he have the right to defend himself in public?
In the end, it seems pretty clear to me that Columbia did the right thing in not taking any action against Nungesser; from what information is public, none of these accusations are very convincing, and how could you possibly establish what happened when they are not reported until weeks, months, after they allegedly happened?
But Nungesser and his parents rightly point out that the young man is still saddled with a reputation as a sexual offender—something they insist is untrue and unfair.
“What really struck us as outrageously unfair,” says Nungesser’s father, Andreas Probosch, a schoolteacher who speaks near-perfect English, “was the university’s non-reaction to Emma Sulkowicz’s public campaign. After investigating the allegations against Paul for seven months they found them not credible, but when Ms. Sulkowicz went to the press and claimed Columbia had swept everything under the rug, why didn’t they stand by his side and say, ‘We do have a process and we followed that process and we stand by the acquittal’? Instead they declined to comment and just threw him under the bus.”
Kudos to Young for a disturbing story that provides a reality check to the other reporting on this case.
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P.S. Here’s an example of the other reporting on this case. It’s from—you guessed it—Jezebel. The added emphasis is my doing.
Jezebel has spoken with three students who accuse Nungesser of sexual assault—one of whom, a male classmate, is currently in the process of pursuing disciplinary action through Columbia and has never previously spoken publicly about his allegations. There is not, by these students’ accounts, much ambiguity in their experiences with Nungesser.
The male classmate part is interesting: Jezebel gives his name as “Adam,” but in true Sabrina Rubin Erdely style, we don’t know if that’s his real name or not. Adam “identifies” as “queer and black”—I’m just using quotes because that seems safer—and says that “Paul pushed him onto his bed and sexually assaulted him.”
What does that even mean?
But Adam “didn’t tell anybody about the incident until months later” out of “denial, fear that nobody would believe him, fear that even defining himself as a survivor would somehow damage others.”
Fear that even defining himself as as survivor would somehow damage others? What does that even mean?
Adam’s response to Cathy Young’s article: Adam scoffs that apart from the disservice it does to Paul’s alleged victims, it “invalidates and completely erases my entire experience.”
It completely erases his entire experience?
I think at this point journalists need to really consider very carefully the decision to grant anonymity to people accusing others of sexual assault.
Also, Emma Sulkowicz responds to the Daily Beast article via an email, excerpted below, to Jezebel:
I went public with my story because I wanted to show the world how flawed the college process for handling cases of sexual assault is. I have already been violated by both Paul and Columbia University once. It is extremely upsetting that Paul would violate me again—this time, with the help of a reporter, Cathy Young. I just wanted to fix the problem of sexual assault on campus—I never wanted this to be an excuse for people to dig through my private Facebook messages and frame them in a way as to cast doubt on my character. It’s unfair and disgusting that Paul and Cathy would treat personal life as a mine that they can dig through and harvest for publicity and Paul’s public image.
This is why I have chosen to release the full conversation, plus the context in which things were said. I want people to have all the information so that they can make informed decisions for themselves, rather than seeing a redacted version of the conversation with bits and pieces picked out to make me look a certain way.
If I had a choice, no one would see my private Facebook messages at all.
Let’s be honest here: The more this woman talks, the more she discredits herself. Whether she was assaulted by Paul Nungesser, we will likely never know—that’s what happens when you wait for months to make an accusation. Did Columbia “violate” her? The university took her claims seriously, heard everything she and others had to say, and made a decision that she doesn’t agree with. If that’s a violation, this woman is going to have a hard time in the real world.
And don’t even get me started on the fact that a woman who is toting her mattress around campus, appearing on the cover of magazines and attending the state of the union is complaining about her privacy being violated. People who are accused in public have a right to defend themselves in public.
Jezebel’s main argument is, ultimately, this:
While Young’s piece might read like a dud of an aspirant bombshell to anybody who isn’t the American Enterprise Institute’s Christina Hoff Sommers (another ” rape isn’t real” cheerleader), the process by which she obtained the “exclusive” information for the piece showcases a new normal for women who publicly accuse men of rape: an open-ended ideology-driven crusade to discredit them, a reality bent to suit a narrative.
We’re back in Sabrina Rubin Erdely-land again: Any attempt to investigate whether a claim of rape is true—and this one is being investigated because it is very public and highly controversial, not out of some default skepticism—is “an open-ended ideology crusade to discredit them.”
I would just ask Jezebel: If this situation doesn’t apply, then under what circumstances would it be appropriate to not assume that an accusation of rape is inherently true? I mean, who is really practicing open-ended ideology here?
P.P.S. The original version of this post misspelled Kirsten Gillibrand’s name.
454 Responses
2/9/2024 7:52 am
http://jezebel.com/how-to-make-an-accused-rapist-look-good-1682583526
2/9/2024 9:22 am
There need to be more repercussions for universities which fail to provide a “safe place” for their male students.
http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/202107/
Tort Notices Filed by Students Cleared of WPU Gang Rape. “Two of the five William Paterson University students who were accused of an on-campus gang rape last fall, but were cleared of the charges when a grand jury refused to indict them, have filed notices indicating their intent to sue the school, which is public, as well as its president, director of public safety and others.”
They violated their duty of fairness toward students in favor of sexism and gender prejudice. Make ‘em pay.
2/9/2024 9:54 am
My family has followed this case with interest because of personal links to the institution in question, so I can say that the only really new thing here were the social media messages.
One can say that a victim of sexual assault can act in “unpredictable ways” but what one cannot say is that one can decide whether one has been sexually assaulted (including acting in “unpredictable ways”) six months after the fact. It makes the prospect of any fair judicial or quasi-judicial process impossible.
In this case, not only did the Mattress Girl wait over six months to generate the complaint, the complaint was generated after she had met and spoken to a prior girlfriend of the accused.
After a lengthy hearing process Columbia did not find Nungesser had violated their policy, and the NYPD never pursued the case, either. That should have settled that.
But that’s not how the gratification works. Sexual assault is a terrible thing, we want to show how much we deplore it, so we need someone to deplore, and we need someone to idealize as a survivor. In that sense, both Nungesser and Mattress Girl are just totems in the larger conversation.
As to the double standard: Of course it is there, and furthermore, to seek extra-judicial punishment in the fulfillment of a course requirement is just completely bizarre. What next? Fomenting a riot or an insurrection to fulfill a thesis requirement?
2/9/2024 10:38 am
My sister attends Columbia as an undergrad now. She says that popular opinion on campus has tilted heavily against Emma Sulkowicz since the Daily Beast article. Many of the students feel ‘misled’ since the FB messages came out.
2/9/2024 10:44 am
The whole issue of extra-judicial punishment is contrary to our notions of basic fairness and justice, and as is usually the case, those screaming the loudest for extra-judicial punishment are actually those least interested in fairness and justice.
Many people are rightly asking why convicted felons lose their right to vote. Whether they should or not is an open question, but the question should be asked, especially given that once someone has completed whatever sentence they were given, they are supposed to have been ‘forgiven,’ with no other consequences beyond those strictly necessary to protect society (Bernie Madoff wouldn’t be allowed to run an investment business if he ever got out of prison, and people with multiple DUI convictions shouldn’t be allowed to drive school buses) - except that they aren’t forgiven… they lose their right to vote. Extra-judicial punishment is of the same ‘you’re forgiven but you’re not’ piece, but it’s even worse because how much extra-judicial punishment you are subjected to is entirely the whim of…?
Think about the Ray Rice case (and just to be clear, I don’t think he got the punishment that he deserved to get - famous people of any sort - entertainers, athletes, etc. don’t play by the same rules as you and I, but that’s life.) He was charged with a crime and punished (although there is no question that his fame enabled him to get off as lightly as he did) - where does the NFL get off imposing an after-the-fact punishment? Or how about P&G? Wasn’t it them who stopped working on charitable causes with the NFL because they didn’t find the NFL’s extra-judicial punishment severe enough?… P&G’s twice-removed extra-judicial punishment actually created victims without really punishing Ray Rice or the NFL. I’d be really interested in knowing if any P&G executives have been charged with domestic violence, and if so, if they are executives at P&G.
As odious as extra-judicial punishment is, it’s important to remember that it is only a symptom of an underlying problem, which is dissatisfaction with the justice system.
2/9/2024 10:48 am
Ooops…
I’d be really interested in knowing if any P&G executives have been charged with domestic violence, and if so, if they are *still* executives at P&G.
2/9/2024 10:50 am
It is Gillibrand.
2/9/2024 11:13 am
Thanks, Anonymouse.
2/9/2024 11:31 am
So glad someone has finally called out his disgusting self promoter and her shameless agenda. This shit needs to stop… men need to come out of the shadows and aggressively, and immediately, pursue legal action against these women, the hate groups behind the movement, and “news” sources like Jezebel and Gawker who routinely libel and defame alleged attackers. Reputations are protected by law, and men need to start utilizing their legal options they have available to them and stop giving these raptivist lunatics absolute free range.
2/9/2024 11:44 am
I find Sulkowicz’s annotation of the FB messages to make perfect sense. She is trying to initiate a conversation and doesn’t want him to avoid her. Notably his failure to actually talk with her, and rapid disappearance from their prior close friendship, strongly suggests that he knew he did something wrong to her.
Although people accuse Sulkowicz of “waiting six months,” the truth is that she and a friend discussed the incident the NEXT DAY and determined that it should be considered rape. That is called a “fresh complaint witness,” and it answers the absurd question you pose:
“how could you possibly establish what happened when they are not reported until weeks, months, after they allegedly happened?”
You are dead wrong on this. Women are under no obligation to instantly go to the police in order to have their allegations taken seriously. And investigations can be done and conclusions reached. You are just wrong and you are throwing red meat to your ideologically activated new readership.
I am not saying Columbia got Sulkowicz’s case wrong — although that is very likely in light of the fact that she stood to gain nothing by inventing the anal rape in the context of an ongoing friendship with a sexual component. And I think she is wrong to expect and demand that there to be no media scrutiny. But it is intolerable for that critique to quickly start shading into insinuations that no accusation can stand up unless it is instantaneous and unless the victim is immaculate in every aspect of her relationship with the accuser.
The generalizations are NOT ACCEPTABLE. We are trying to have a society here. And even in this particular case there is just no basis to imagine that she created this rape story the next day out of nowhere.
2/9/2024 11:46 am
“Reputations are protected by law.”
This isn’t true. People are protected from statements that are KNOWN to be false by the people making them. Sulkowicz does not fall into that category. And I bet she would welcome a defamation lawsuit, because she would win handily.
2/9/2024 11:46 am
“Whether she was assaulted by Paul Nungesser, we will likely never know—that’s what happens when you wait for months to make an accusation.”
DEAD WRONG. Unacceptable.
2/9/2024 11:54 am
“She is trying to initiate a conversation and doesn’t want him to avoid her. Notably his failure to actually talk with her, and rapid disappearance from their prior close friendship, strongly suggests that he knew he did something wrong to her.”
I’m pretty sure that you’re under no obligation to keep humouring an ex once you find out that they’re batshit crazy.
2/9/2024 11:55 am
Although people accuse Sulkowicz of “waiting six months,” the truth is that she and a friend discussed the incident the NEXT DAY and determined that it should be considered rape.
What’s the evidence of this? That is, where is the corroboration?
There is no dispute that this guy and this gal engaged in consensual sex on the night in question. The issue is whether, in the course of having consensual sex, he choked her and forcibly engaged in anal penetration. I submit there is just no way to prove that by any standard of evidence, short of bruising, anal tears, etc., and certainly none of that is going to be present 6 months after the event.
Also, she has much to gain from pursuing the claim. First, because it is her senior project. Second, because she has received a lot of attention and acclaim. Third, because she is obviously uncomfortable with this guy, and wants to see him expelled.
I’m interested in having a society, too. This means, among other things, abiding the decisions of Columbia University and the NYPD and not succumbing to calls for mob action.
2/9/2024 11:57 am
SE — the follow-on “accusers” waited months, as well.
Everyone takes rape seriously, except for those pushing the Obama administration, Title IX “guilt assumed, no chance of innocence” approach.
2/9/2024 11:58 am
“Whether she was assaulted by Paul Nungesser, we will likely never know—that’s what happens when you wait for months to make an accusation.”
DEAD WRONG. Unacceptable.
Unacceptable to whom? If two people engage in behavior and they are the only two people party to the behavior how can one establish the veracity of what happened months when neither party can prove what happened? That seems perfectly reasonable to me.
I thought you wanted to live in a society. Ex cathedra pronouncements of what is or is not acceptable don’t sound very sociable to me.
2/9/2024 11:59 am
Just like Mattress Girl, SE is imploding by the second here and not really helping out The Cause. “she stood to gain nothing by inventing the anal rape in the context of an ongoing friendship with a sexual component.”
What planet are you on? Are you serious?
She has everything to gain-publicity, campus celebrity status, non-stop attention, and a career as an activist speaker and performance artist.
2/9/2024 12:11 pm
“Are you serious?”
Nobody wants those things. Certainly not the NEXT DAY, when she talked about it with her friend.
2/9/2024 12:13 pm
“how can one establish the veracity of what happened months when neither party can prove what happened?”
Many different ways and it happens all the time. One of the key elements is called a Fresh Complaint Witness. When you have one of those you find out what they said at the time and observe if it has changed (as in the Jackie case). There is work involved in this, and it is not for lazy people. Investigations take work. They are harder than opinions about what is generally “reasonable.”
2/9/2024 12:19 pm
A couple of points:
1) To get legal redress for having been defamed, whether you are the accused or the accuser, you need to be able to afford a lawyer, and which neither of them might be able to. In this situation, the accuser is probably better off in the sense that she would seem to be more likely to find someone to do it pro bono (given the current climate), although that might not be entirely free - I don’t know if they would have to pay out of pocket expenses, which could be significant.
2) The fact that the accuser in this situation has the question of her performance art and school project being muddled into it doesn’t by itself definitively make her a liar, nor should it, and nor is it unfair to point out those factors as being an incentive for her to make a false claim. But if we cast the story into another analogous context — if this were a business dispute she would have (I’m not a lawyer) a vested interest or a non-arms-length relationship here — making her accusation worthy of increased scrutiny and doubt.
2/9/2024 12:23 pm
I would be willing to bet that Mattress Girl would pass a lie detector test. She, like other dyed-in-the-wool narcissists (Brian Williams, anyone?) function on two different levels of reality. The first is objective. The second is a subjective, idio-reality that allows them to actually believe their self-serving prevarications.
Narcissism is the only theory that explains both the bizarre gaps in her story and her accomplished self-promotion.
2/9/2024 12:25 pm
If you want to convict someone of rape, you’d better report that crime to the police as soon as you possibly can, because if you don’t it obviously wasn’t a real rape (unless the woman was unconscious at the time and there is evidence to prove she was raped). Taking away someones freedom shouldn’t be taken lightly, and you’d better have proof to back up your accusations.
2/9/2024 12:34 pm
Many different ways and it happens all the time. One of the key elements is called a Fresh Complaint Witness. When you have one of those you find out what they said at the time and observe if it has changed (as in the Jackie case). There is work involved in this, and it is not for lazy people. Investigations take work.
So who’s doing the work?
My complaint about Mattress Girl is that her complaint — not publicized until months later — has been taken as prima facie accurate, even though both Columbia University and the NYPD looked into the accusation, and neither acted upon it. That means by normal standards that this guy shouldn’t be harassed by having this alleged incident treated as fact and/or subject to performance art.
As to “fresh complaint witnesses”, the first thing I would want to know is the identity and testimony of this person who corroborates the testimony of Mattress Girl the day after the alleged assault. Was this material submitted to Columbia University or the NYPD? If so, was it discounted, and if it was discounted, why? It’s not my job to do the work, because I’m not the one claiming the allegation is true, by reading between the lines of the Facebook messages.
Speaking of “fresh complaint witnesses”, the same approach was taken with the testimony of “Andy” with regard to Jackie’s alleged oral rape at UVA. However, further investigation concerning Jackie’s allegations has also tended to cast that testimony to a “fresh complaint witness” under a shadow (the sockpuppet Haven Monahan.)
Sexual/Romantic relationships are messy. Women, and men, can be seriously traumatized in such relationships, even when there is no “sexual assault.” But the reality of painful relationships doesn’t rise to the level of proof of a felonious act.
2/9/2024 12:38 pm
SE-could you provide a source for the fact that Sulkowicz spoke to someone about the incident the next day? I agree with you that that’s a relevant point, but I haven’t seen it, or I’ve missed it. That said, waiting months before filing a formal complaint against someone makes it very hard to move past a she said-he said situation.
Also: This is the 2nd time you’ve suggested that I am tailoring what I write to appease the appetites of my “new readership,” or something like that. This is stupid and boring and insulting to all parties. You will observe how my “new readership” reacted to my post about Larry Summers, which didn’t seem to have stopped me from writing it. I’m my own guy, and I think you just need to accept that.
2/9/2024 12:40 pm
Columbia did the work; we don’t know all the things they considered. I am not saying they came to the wrong conclusion (notably, they DID initially find an assault in the case of “Josie,” and then it was overturned on evidentiary technicalities). But I do know that reading the Daily Beast article reveals no “gaps” whatsoever in Sulkowicz’s story. She communicated via FB to try to talk things out after the assault. Nothing else she has said is in any way incongruous with anything else she has said.
The issue with “Andy” is very much on point — looking into what he ACTUALLY heard that night (as opposed to what Jackie said she told him) was the first step in dismantling Jackie’s story for good. If there was a fresh complaint witness in Sulkowicz’s case, it matters very much what she remembers from the discussion on that next day.
2/9/2024 12:42 pm
SE-Where was the source for that again? Not being snarky, just want to know.
2/9/2024 12:44 pm
I don’t understand, Richard, why you are making sweeping generalizations about how delayed rape accusations can never be proven. I am suspicious that you have been marinating in your comments section, and this is distorting your view of reality in general. If you have held this opinion for a long time, I am surprised — it’s the first I’ve heard of it and I consider it a pretty radical statement. (Oh, look, here is a commenter taking it another step in all earnestness; these are the people that have been very vocal here for several months: “you’d better report that crime to the police as soon as you possibly can, because if you don’t it obviously wasn’t a real rape.”)
The Sulkowicz statement about the next-day discussion with her friend appears in her annotated version of the FB exchanges. You should have clicked on that version when you read the Jezebel article.
2/9/2024 12:46 pm
NB. The “assault” on Josie wasn’t alleged to have been rape. Just to clarify — I’m not trying to elide anything factually.
2/9/2024 12:53 pm
SE -
I’ll take your side here - in a fashion.
You obviously care very much about this issue, and I have no reasons to doubt your either sincerity or your honesty. One of the vexing things about human nature is that when we are in that position (myself included) we tend to let passion get the better of rationalism. I can’t help but wonder if that is true here in your case, and I’d say that it appears to be the case with some of the other responders.
One rape is one too many, and one false accusation is one too many, although unfortunately, we will always have some (many?) of each. We can only hope that justice truly gets served, and throwing away the normal rules that we apply in all other situations, doesn’t help get us there… a guy who is falsely accused, along with whatever else happens to him as part of that is an injustice, just as it is when the wrong guy is convicted of an actual rape… and in situations like that, although many people think the raped woman received justice, she didn’t really…
2/9/2024 12:54 pm
The annotations on the FB posts do not add to Sulkowicz’s credibility. She has said in other sources that she and Nungesser began a consensual sexual encounter, when without warning, Nungesser punched her, choked her, pinned her down, and anally penetrated her against her wishes.
Yet she needed to talk it over with someone the next day to determine whether it was actually a rape?
2/9/2024 1:01 pm
SE - I think you are being pretty fast and loose with the facts here.
The only support for the allegation that Mattress Girl discussed the alleged sexual assault and “had it explained to her that it was rape” is from an annotation that was done _last week_. There is _zero_ evidence that this “fresh complaint witness” even exists at this point, aside from this annotation made by Mattress Girl.
Now, perhaps this “fresh complaint witness” can come forward and speak out, but, no wonder no one has heard of her before now. However, we are now two years and some months away from the alleged sexual assault (which took place in the context of consensual sexual intercourse.)
2/9/2024 1:02 pm
SE -
Not to beat up on you but “But I do know that reading the Daily Beast article reveals no “gaps” whatsoever in Sulkowicz’s story”?
Please!
An article doesn’t even count as hearsay evidence. We have no way of knowing that whoever the author is isn’t an activist, and that they aren’t making stuff up.
If you need proof of what I’m saying, Google “Sabrina Erdely Rubin”.
2/9/2024 1:05 pm
I would like to read a post regarding the orginial nytimes piece that you found poorly reported. I thought it made several claims that the journalist failed to investigate, notably, that there was a faculty member supervising this. Along that line, I am curious if Sulkowicz did receive university credit for her piece, if so how much, and what sort of advice she was given by faculty.
I found the annotations by Emma at Jezebel opened more questions than they answered. As SE points out, there is now an unnamed witness that Emma told about the assault within 24 hours of their occurrence and who Emma claims convinced her it was a rape.
Since Columbia seemed to clear Paul of the rape charge (caveated that it’s not clear what Columbia did besides fail to act) it does seem likely that this unnamed witness was not called before their proceedings and/or was not believable and/or did not say what Emma claims.
2/9/2024 1:11 pm
SE-“I talk to one of my girlfriends, who explains that it was rape.” That’s the best you got? First, it’s pretty darn vague, and this is the first we’ve heard of it. Second…I mean-according to Sulkowicz, Nungesser “began choking and hitting her and then penetrated her anally while she struggled and screamed in pain.” And the next day it has to be explained to her that this was rape? Something there does not add up.
2/9/2024 1:13 pm
(third time post (sorry) link obfuscated to keep it from being spam filtered (but add msnbc to the front))
> I would just ask Jezebel: If this situation doesn’t apply, then under what circumstances would it be appropriate to not assume that an accusation of rape is inherently true?
This should also be asked of Melissa Harris Perry:
The Columbia University rape case in focus
The Daily Beast Contributor Cathy Young, the writer who interviewed the Columbia student accused of rape, joins Melissa Harris-Perry’s conversation on the case and how journalists report on rape.
melissa-harris-perry/watch/the-columbia-university-rape-case-in-focus-395714115642
2/9/2024 1:17 pm
The Beast article is the one that defended Nungesser and depicted Sulkowicz as unreliable because of her attempts at Facebook communication.
2/9/2024 1:19 pm
“perhaps this “fresh complaint witness” can come forward and speak out, but, no wonder no one has heard of her before now.”
This is my point. A competent investigation by Columbia would have spoken with her (and probably did so).
2/9/2024 1:20 pm
(wordpress asks me to slowdown!)
“I talk to one of my girlfriends, who explains that it was rape.”
I don’t think that’s vague at all. I think Emma can now produce the witness who will testify she an Emma spoke of a sexual assault the night or a sexual act in the context of rape. This is something a reporter should follow up on and investigate.
2/9/2024 1:24 pm
Jay-I think if that person exists, she should certainly come forward. That might help bring clarity to a murky situation. But it still doesn’t explain why Emma Sulkowicz needs to be told that being strangled, punched and anally violated is rape.
And SE, if you think that Columbia spoke to this FCW, and still reached the conclusion that it did, then you must think either that the FCW was not credible or that Columbia erred in its conclusions. Which one?
2/9/2024 1:26 pm
SE - Just to be clear about what you said in your strongly worded rebuttal to Richard earlier:
I find Sulkowicz’s annotation of the FB messages to make perfect sense. She is trying to initiate a conversation and doesn’t want him to avoid her. Notably his failure to actually talk with her, and rapid disappearance from their prior close friendship, strongly suggests that he knew he did something wrong to her.
That’s a very slanted way of looking at the evidence. To me, it looks much less suspect. Knowing that they had sexual relations (a part of which is supposed to have involved non-consensual anal penetration) suggests either (a) that she wished to pursue their relationship, and he did not or (b) that he is trying to avoid her because he committed a crime. I’d be happy to let a jury decide.
Although people accuse Sulkowicz of “waiting six months,” the truth is that she and a friend discussed the incident the NEXT DAY and determined that it should be considered rape. That is called a “fresh complaint witness,” and it answers the absurd question you pose:
The fact that you consider “the truth” to be an allegation made in the form of an annotation (!) to a Facebook post that was done in response to a news article that tended to impeach her narrative says something about jumping to conclusions, to put it mildly.
2/9/2024 1:30 pm
This next-day discussion with her friend is a relatively new development in her version of the events. Here is what Emma Sulkowicz told Amy Goodman on September 16, 2024 (if the transript is correct):
“Immediately afterwards? Well, at first, I didn’t even tell my parents. It was very—I was very ashamed, I felt disgusting, and I didn’t want to talk about it at all.”
(A Survivor’s Burden: Columbia Student Carries Mattress on Campus Until Alleged Rapist is Expelled)
2/9/2024 1:31 pm
SE -
“perhaps this “fresh complaint witness” can come forward and speak out, but, no wonder no one has heard of her before now.”
This is my point. A competent investigation by Columbia would have spoken with her (and probably did so).
On what basis do you say “probably”? Sulkowicz made an annotation last week on a neutral Facebook conversation from 2012, and you not only assume the veracity of this statement, you then assume that this third party was part of Columbia’s proceedings against Nungesser? I mean, maybe. But in the absence of any corroboration this is web spinning, pure and simple.
2/9/2024 1:32 pm
It’s amazing how many of these scandalous university rape cases do not, in the end, seem to hold up. This situation is more and more reminding of the child rape hysteria in the 80’s that destroyed so many, many innocent people-and not just innocent, but blatantly, obviously innocent.
2/9/2024 1:33 pm
No man should ever get a fair trial; to give him one is injustice to women. Men are guilty of any and all depredations a woman accuses them of, and defending oneself is hate-speech.
Tom Robinson should have been hanged solely on Mayella Ewell’s say-so. Atticus Finch must be damned as a rape-denier.
Is this our new reality?
2/9/2024 1:34 pm
Same May 16, 2024 with the Columbia Spectator:
“When it first happened, I didn’t want to talk to anyone. I didn’t even tell my parents. … I didn’t even want to talk to my best friend,” she said.
2/9/2024 1:35 pm
Oh, and “under what circumstances would it be appropriate to not assume that an accusation of rape is inherently true?” That’s easy: If you’re Bill Clinton, a Kennedy, or any other media favorite, your’re fine.
2/9/2024 1:36 pm
Should have been “reminiscent” not “reminding.”
2/9/2024 1:48 pm
It is weird that people insist there should be corroboration for the statement that corroborating evidence exists. So then that evidence is brought forward, and the next question is “how will anyone corroborate THAT?”. The witness is then tagged as an accomplice “web-spinner,” and the conspiracy theories just add a new layer.
If the fresh complaint doesn’t exist, then I am sure that Columbia found that out, or found out it was ambiguous. Maybe Sulkowicz described the encounter to a friend as a hypothetical, and the friend didn’t remember the conversation. In that case it becomes, indeed, very difficult (and perhaps in the end rightly impossible) for the school to determine whose memory of the communication in the encounter is sharper, and whether the lack of consent was clear at the time. So there is a decent chance Columbia did the best it could.
SPMoore — you’re getting facts wrong again in an attempt to fit your theory.
“Knowing that they had sexual relations (a part of which is supposed to have involved non-consensual anal penetration) suggests either (a) that she wished to pursue their relationship, and he did not or (b) that he is trying to avoid her because he committed a crime.”
If you read the actual stories you learn that they had had consensual sex twice in the past without either party being skeeved out or starting to avoid the other. So your option (a) makes no sense.
2/9/2024 1:50 pm
That “again” refers to the fact that you wrongly identified Andy as having supported Jackie’s story, when in fact he had rebutted it. Only Erdely thought he had supported it.
2/9/2024 1:53 pm
SPMoore, you are right that I should not have called Sulkowicz’s annotation “the truth.” It is possible that this statement about the next-day conversation is a lie. But it is a dumb thing to lie about, since everyone then asks, Who was your friend and We want to talk to her.
2/9/2024 1:54 pm
I am afraid there is no such friend. As Emma Sulkowicz told the Columbia Spectator: “When it first happened, I didn’t want to talk to anyone. I didn’t even tell my parents. … I didn’t even want to talk to my best friend.”
2/9/2024 1:55 pm
May,
That is possible.
2/9/2024 2:13 pm
SE -
It is weird that people insist there should be corroboration for the statement that corroborating evidence exists.
So in other words, if someone says that there is a “First Complaint Witness” in order to support a claim of rape, no one should ask any questions? That’s weird.
If the fresh complaint doesn’t exist, then I am sure that Columbia found that out, or found out it was ambiguous.
I’m sorry, but you are just making stuff up here. We don’t know that the FCW exists, let alone that Columbia found out that they didn’t exist, so how can you be “sure”?
If you read the actual stories you learn that they had had consensual sex twice in the past without either party being skeeved out or starting to avoid the other. So your option (a) makes no sense.
No, I am not creating “facts to fit my theory.” They had consensual sex twice before, and the third time she clearly wanted to make something more of it, either because (a) she wanted to pursue the relationship this time, or (b) because she was raped.
SPMoore, you are right that I should not have called Sulkowicz’s annotation “the truth.” It is possible that this statement about the next-day conversation is a lie. But it is a dumb thing to lie about, since everyone then asks, Who was your friend and We want to talk to her.
Which is exactly what everyone is doing now, since you claimed that it was “the truth.” However the truth value of a statement doesn’t depend on whether it would be “dumb” to say something that isn’t true. And I didn’t call the statement a “lie”. I called it what it is: an annotation that was made last week to a story that called her credibility into question, and for which there is zero substantiation at this point.
Let’s get this alleged FCW before the court of public opinion, pronto. Clearly neither Columbia University nor the NYPD thought it was worth mentioning.
2/9/2024 2:19 pm
The Jezebel comments creeped me out. It’s like watching the thoughts form in a self righteous lynch mob.
2/9/2024 2:20 pm
[…] BRADLEY: The Problematic Story of the Woman with the Mattress. Bradley, readers may recall, is the one who first raised questions about Sabrina Rubin […]
2/9/2024 2:23 pm
“Let’s get this alleged FCW before the court of public opinion, pronto.”
No can do, kemosabe. That court can’t just subpoena people.
And Columbia is not allowed to comment in public about an individual case. As I say, I am confident BECAUSE I HAVE PARTICIPATED IN THESE INVESTIGATIONS that if Sulkowicz mentioned her fresh complaint witness to Columbia, Columbia then spoke to that person.
If Sulkowicz did not mention him or her (not necessarily her best friend) to Columbia, I agree her credibility is now badly shaken.
2/9/2024 2:24 pm
Would like to point out something that always struck me as weird and which was mentioned again at a recent comment at the Columbia Spectator.
In May she had this huge TimeMag special with video interview and an op-ed where she claims: “My rapist is still on campus” and that she is scared to see him every day. Well, Nungesser actually was in Prague at that time, which she admitted a couple days later, I think. She even later said, that she enjoyed the semester when he was abroad.
Whom did she there?
2/9/2024 2:39 pm
SE: ” And I bet [the alleged victim] would welcome a defamation lawsuit, because she would win handily.”
She made a complaint to the University, which likely applied a preponderance of the evidence standard. Moreover, this is an issue where universities are under pressure to do something (fist into palm) about the problem. Yet, no action was taken on her complaint,
As others have noted, the police and prosecutors also declined to press charges, suggesting they felt her allegations could not, upon further inquiry, reach the higher standard of beyond reasonable doubt.
So, she lost in a somewhat sympathetic forum at the university, where they applied the same standard as a civil trial. And state enforcement officials dropped the matter as well.
Yet you, SE, think she is the one who will prevail in a defamation claim. Handily?
I would not share your optimism if I were her attorney.
2/9/2024 2:42 pm
I saw Paul Nungesser with the Devil. And then he anally raped me.
2/9/2024 2:56 pm
Passingby,
In a defamation case Nungesser would have to prove not that Sulkowicz’s allegation was false but that she BELIEVED it to be false herself (or was reckless about whether it was true or false). Based on the little I have seen of Sulkowicz, I think that argument would stand very very little chance.
2/9/2024 2:59 pm
I suspect Columbia regrets its decision to clear Nungesser of the rape accusation. The university has since then become a participant in the harassment of Nungesser by accepting this mattress carrying stunt as a performance art project. Will Sulkowicz get a better grade on it if she successfully forces Nungesser to leave Columbia? What a sorry state of affairs in higher ed.
2/9/2024 3:00 pm
Wow, I’m glad I was an undergraduate in the 1970’s!
2/9/2024 3:04 pm
SE -
“As I say, I am confident BECAUSE I HAVE PARTICIPATED IN THESE INVESTIGATIONS”…
If this is indeed true, and if your original statements on this blog before you make your quasi-corrections and justification are what you truly believe, then you are the poster child for everything that that is wrong with the whole issue… you are an activist who is more interested in ‘winning’ than you are in the truth, and your kind should never have any role in the system.
I’m sorry, but you’ve lost me.
2/9/2024 3:11 pm
Cathy Young?! Goody Young is a witch!
2/9/2024 3:17 pm
“Jezebel” is a Gawker site. It should not be taken seriously under any circumstances.
2/9/2024 3:21 pm
“Why are these reporters digging into my personal life? Can’t they see I’m carrying a MATTRESS???”
I doubt that Jezebel’s Erin Gloria Ryan (@morninggloria) would like it if somebody accused her of rape. I also doubt she’d learn anything from it.
2/9/2024 3:26 pm
Jim Treacher FTW.
2/9/2024 3:31 pm
RB -
There is obviously something very wrong with your blog server/software!
I noticed the previous time SE accused you of pandering to your new audience (me included) but just dismissed it because of the source. When she did it again today, I thought I should look into it. I’ve never seen any ads on your site, and so I assumed it was my machine. I’ve tried Firefox, Chrome, Opera, and even IE, and still no ads.
If your going to pander to me in order to drive up your page views and hence your revenue from advertising, you need to get your ducks in a row and fix your system. And if you don’t carry advertising, well, I’m sorry to be the one to break the news to you, but pandering is kind of pointless.
Please don’t ban me from your blog for speaking truth to power…
2/9/2024 3:33 pm
Meh, I made tiny corrections to phraseology. I stand by my claim that a delayed rape accusation can still be adjudicated with fairness to both parties.
InterestedObserver, you were “lost” a long time ago as your comments on the Summers thread reveal. I’ll get in line with Duke University as an entity that has zero credibility on any issue in your eyes.
You wrote:
“The legal world has a saying – ‘False in one, false in all,’ meaning that if someone is caught deliberately being untruthful or even trying to do so, everything they say can rightfully be viewed as suspect and even false. Normally I’d follow and read the link you provided, but given that, among other things, it’s from Duke University, it’s safe to say that it’s tainted, and to say nothing of the fact that you mention that it references tenure, which is also an indication that it is likely phoney.
“Remember the ‘Duke 88’? In case you don’t, they were the 88 ‘professors’ who, before any investigation, signed their names to a public proclamation that the soccer players were guilty of rape, and who doubled down and reiterated their statement even after it was proved the whole rape story was bogus. Do you remember the school or even any of their colleagues saying anything against that travesty? Neither do I. In fact, and because of that, I’d go so far as to say that Duke isn’t a real university and that any graduate should sue for fraud because their sheepskin isn’t worth anything, never mind the inflated price they paid for it because it was from ‘Duke.’”
I looked up the letter that spurred this judgment from you and it doesn’t say anything about any rapists being guilty. It says things are bad on campus:
“The students know that the disaster didn’t begin on March 13th and won’t end with what the police say or the court decides. Like all disasters, this one has a history. And what lies beneath what we’re hearing from our students are questions about the future.
This ad, printed in the most easily seen venue on campus, is just one way for us to say that we’re hearing what our students are saying.
…We’re turning up the volume in a moment when some of the most vulnerable among us are being asked to quiet down while we wait. To the students speaking individually and to the protestors making collective noise, thank you for not waiting and for making yourselves heard.”
I don’t think I would have signed that, but I also don’t think it finds anyone guilty.
2/9/2024 3:35 pm
I would be the last one in the world to accuse Richard of being mercenary. His blog is a valuable public service. I just think on this issue some of the recent attention might have slightly torqued his opinion-forming apparatus. (For example, it behooved him to read Sulkowicz’s annotation before posting at length.)
Treacher, that is funny.
2/9/2024 3:39 pm
“I’m afraid there is no such friend.”
These one-sided and politicized narratives of assault and university cover-ups can’t seem to withstand even the most basic fact-checking. Funny how a rather ordinary job of reporting both sides of a contested series of events seems to be a shining example of journalistic excellence by comparison.
2/9/2024 3:40 pm
The Duke “rape” was not a “disaster”, because it was made up out of whole cloth. It never happened!
2/9/2024 3:44 pm
The professors were referring to the racist and sexist climate that they considered disastrous. Hence the fact that it didn’t begin on the date of the alleged rape.
2/9/2024 3:58 pm
“Fake But Accurate!”
The war-cry of rape fakers and their enthusiastic enablers on college campuses everywhere.
2/9/2024 4:00 pm
In the paragraph referring to the “frustratingly opaque disciplinary process”, there is a phrase, “nonetheless did not act all the accusations”, that doesn’t make sense to me. Is it a typo? I ask becuase Nungesser was prohibited from entering buildings where Sulkowicz could be, something that interfered with his part-time job as an audio-visual technician.
2/9/2024 4:06 pm
She speaks!
SE, do you really need a ‘paint by numbers’ diagram for a black and white picture? Do you even have two neurons rubbing together?
You and your kind are whatever three bus stops beyond pathetic is. You are like Lena Dunham… proclaiming that because you are either a victim (real or otherwise) or on the side of victims, including alleged and phoney ones, that your views have some sort of moral superiority over those with whom you disagree, and you use that false mantle of victim-hood/abject and uncritical sympathy for those claiming victim status to make the most outlandish and reprehensible claims. Are you really that morally depraved?
Here you go again. Where exactly is the proof that, to quote you, “things are bad on campus”?
“The students know that the disaster didn’t begin on March 13th and won’t end with what the police say or the court decides. Like all disasters, this one has a history. And what lies beneath what we’re hearing from our students are questions about the future.”
Really? It’s nice to know that the Duke 88 don’t believe in the justice system. Are any of them lawyers? If so, as officers of the court they should be disbarred for what they did. And was their poll of students conducted with a sufficient sample size to ensure that if can be projected across the entire Duke student body with any reasonable margin of error? Somehow I think not. It’s more likely that they were hearing the same sort of voices in their heads as SRE was apparently hearing in hers.
You never answer your opponents directly, instead always offering minor immaterial stuff that doesn’t change the nature of your assertions; almost retracting and/or correcting what you said except for explicitly acknowledging what you said was wrong; or just ignoring it altogether.
So, if you will pardon the expression, man up. It doesn’t hurt nearly so much to admit that you are wrong as you seem to think it does. Or is it that you get your thrills from lying? If that is the case, just go away… and get some professional help.
Thank you.
2/9/2024 4:19 pm
All rape allegations should be believed.
For example, Juanita Broaderick accused Bill Clinton of rape. By definition, Bill Clinton is a rapist.
All good liberals have to agree with that, right?
2/9/2024 4:19 pm
Help me out. What did I say that was wrong? All I see is that I failed to acknowledge the possibility that Sulkowicz might be blatantly lying when she describes a conversation the day after the alleged rape.
If that is all: you got me. She might have been lying there. If so, that is worth noting (and it is worth taking notice of all the facts presented for that reason among others).
The reason professors have tenure is to prevent shrieking about how they should be “disbarred” (or the equivalent) whenever someone disagrees with their political critique. For example, this cat McAdams at Marquette. They are NOT allowed to fire him. But they seem to be doing so.
2/9/2024 4:45 pm
SE -
Before going on, I notice that you used ‘elided’ on one of your posts. Great vocabulary and usage of a very uncommon word! I’m mentioning it because I’m going to use it too.
You have neatly elided a couple of things here. I said the lawyer professors should be disbarred, not fired. There is a difference, you know. Even if they were disbarred, they would still be able to be law professors, including tenured ones… the two things are completely unrelated. If you don’t know the difference and what it entails, especially given the context which we are discussing, you need to take remedial lessons in commenting… if you were a ball player, you’d be strictly ‘A’ class, if that, and shouldn’t be making an idiot of yourself in the majors.
You have ‘fessed up to more than one thing on this blog, but rarely as completely as you have in the first sentence of your second paragraph, although it reeks of insincerity. I’ll note that you are trying to deflect my criticism of you by doing exactly what I have accused you of doing - to use a term which is currently in vogue, you are conflating debarment and firing to deliberately avoid addressing my points.
I have neither the time nor inclination to go back and produce more examples… I’ve proved my point with your (unintended, I’m sure) help. I don’t want to fall into the trap of arguing with an idiot… that would make me one as well, or at least confuse others as to which of us it was.
2/9/2024 4:48 pm
Me too. I was sexually assaulted by Paul Nungesser too. He rapin erybody around here.
2/9/2024 4:55 pm
And he did after the helicopter we were flying in was hit by an enemy “RPG”. I was momentarily stunned and he took full advantage of me.
2/9/2024 4:59 pm
My delightful former student Alex Pasternack appears in this relevant video: Enter youtu.be, then a slash, then hMtZfW2z9dw
Or Google Antoine Dodson bed intruder song.
2/9/2024 5:00 pm
One of the big problems with the activist narrative is relying on “Josie” both as a complainant and to establish a pattern. Josie never claimed to have withheld consent, she claimed to have been borderline depressive and that fact alone prevented consent. But this is nonsense. It’s quite suspicious the activists elide the details and simply refer to an “abusive relationship” as if that were an established fact. Since they delve into every detail that adds any weight to the accusations one can only believe this an intentional omission.
Effectively there is no second witness besides Sulkowicz [the newly mentioned male victim has never been credibly reported] so the incident needs to be understood individually.
The main disconnect seems to be her original insistence she was punched - not just that there was an unconsented form of sex. If this were true why would she need someone to “convince” her she was raped?
2/9/2024 5:11 pm
I’m pretty sure most people here would have caught Elmer’s pop culture reference even without your libsplaining it to us, SE.
2/9/2024 5:14 pm
This whole scenario is a great example of why I don’t like people.
2/9/2024 5:23 pm
My daughter graduated from Columbia. Since then (actually, since a couple years before then) I have been unable to avoid collecting reasons not to contribute to the University as a Columbia parent.
This inexplicable decision of the University not to stand up and defend its own inquiry findings goes on the pile as one more reason in my collection.
2/9/2024 5:29 pm
It’s not inexplicable. Under HIPAA, colleges are not allowed to discuss the results of disciplinary proceedings against individual students. As Harry Lewis used to add, a college will not comment on an individual case “even to correct the record.”
2/9/2024 5:32 pm
I am reminded of this case on a regular basis because I was at this institution and so have other members of my family, and their friends as well, so I am well up to date on this particular story even it is discussed in places like this blog.
My complaint all along is that this case was adjudicated and no guilt was found and therefore picking on this guy is just totally wrong. Furthermore, the margin of guilt was razor thin: no one disputes that they had sex, no one disputes that they had anal sex, the whole matter under adjudication is whether he forcefully, without consent, and with violence, had anal intercourse with her. Now how in heck would you prove something like that?
“She has no reason to lie” doesn’t cut it, that was exactly the pretext that lynched I don’t know how many men (usually black men) a century ago. And the fact that both parties were having consensual sex and neither was drunk at the time makes it rather hard to determine when the bar of consent was allegedly breached. So that’s the first problem.
The second problem is that the two co-complaintants were not even sexually assaulted, by the normal meaning of the term. In the first case, he was involved in a consensual sexual relationship with the student, and in the second case he appears to have made a pass at a student. Calling the guy a “serial rapist” is a seriously hyperbolic use of the term.
But this is not what SE said: That poster claimed that the “truth” was that Sulkowicz told someone the very next day, and had it explained to her that what she experienced was rape. This from an annotation done last week for a friendly source meant to rebut an article that tended to impeach her credibility.
That article, in turn, tended to undercut the idea that she had been raped and wanted nothing more to do with her attacker. A neutral interpretation is that she wanted to continue the relationship, but he did not. A biased interpretation is that he was running away from a rape victim. How does that follow? Supposing he did spend more time with Emma. Does that mean she wanted to use the rape accusation as leverage? Doesn’t that constitute blackmail? Alternatively, did she think that if she spent more time with Paul, talking it out, she could get him to turn himself in as a sexual predator? Since when do tthe victims of violent felonies have the discretion as to whether charges are filed, or not?
This is why I doubt her story. But even if I didn’t doubt her story, the main point is that both Columbia and the NYPD did. That’s good enough for me.
Now, can an accusation of rape be successfully prosecuted long after the rape? Sure, but clearly there are hurdles to be overcome, because there won’t be any forensic evidence, and in a case of consensual sex that turned into rape, it will be virtually impossible to determine when and how the threshhold was crossed. This isn’t Liz Securro we are talking about here.
2/9/2024 5:40 pm
Oops.
I said HIPAA but I meant FERPA.
Flame away.
2/9/2024 5:47 pm
“A neutral interpretation is that she wanted to continue the relationship, but he did not.”
That’s not neutral. They had been close friends for a year. Why would he stop wanting to be friends? There are possible non-rape-related reasons but none is visible anywhere here.
“Since when do the victims of violent felonies have the discretion as to whether charges are filed, or not?”
Since always.
You know what gives Sulkowicz more credibility for me than anything else (subject to the possibility that something comes out to contradict her, of course)? She acknowledges that it was “irrational” of her to want to talk to him about the rape. Her annotation doesn’t make excuses for that irrationality — it even acknowledges that she had a senseless desire to tell him in person that she was going to file charges, and only on reflection did she realize that was dumb. This reflectiveness made her credible to me on my first exposure to the case (admittedly just two days or so ago).
2/9/2024 5:48 pm
I find it strange that Emma was supposedly screaming for her attacker to stop, and that this took place in a dorm room and no one heard anything. Its hard enough to keep consensual sex quiet in a place like that.
2/9/2024 5:56 pm
“You know what gives Sulkowicz more credibility for me than anything else (subject to the possibility that something comes out to contradict her, of course)? She acknowledges that it was “irrational” of her to want to talk to him about the rape.”
Do you know what would have given Sulkowicz real credibility? If she has been the one to admit that she contacted her alleged rapist after the fact, instead of waiting for that information to come out, and then bashing those who released it.
And is there any evidence that this “why did you rape me” conversation ever took place? Is Emma even alleging that it did? And since both parties claim to have met on several occasions after the alleged rape, then why didn’t Emma bring it up?
2/9/2024 6:03 pm
SE — So what you are saying is that in the case of attempted murder, or conspiracy to commit murder, it is up to the victim, and not the DA, to determine whether or not to press charges?
Nor were they “close friends” for a year. There were gaps in their relationship. They got together for this freshman orientation and that’s when they coupled for the third time. They hadn’t been hanging around together for awhile.
You know what gives Sulkowicz more credibility for me than anything else (subject to the possibility that something comes out to contradict her, of course)? She acknowledges that it was “irrational” of her to want to talk to him about the rape.
Well, you are quoting an annotation from last week, when she was attempting to explain away her cuddly and loving FB messages. What else could she say?
But, Okay, I’ll mark you down as someone who believes that Emma was raped by this guy but for some reason she needed to talk to him before she turned him in to Columbia and/or the police. But at the same time she made no mention of these cuddly and loving FB messages when she constructed her narrative six months later. I think the prima facie interpretation of these messages is that Emma either (a) wanted to continue the relationship, or (b) wanted to use their sexual coupling (whether or not sexual assault was involved) as leverage.
I mean: If she was a victim of a violent felony she had a duty to go to the police, not suck up to her rapist and ask to spend time with him. Was she expecting him to persuade her not to press charges? That scenario makes no sense in terms of the seriousness of the crime alleged.
2/9/2024 6:11 pm
Looking at the reasoning gives me pause to think (“I wanted to show the world how flawed the college process for handling cases of sexual assault is” and “I just wanted to fix the problem of sexual assault on campus”).
I am a bit concerned that there *might* be activists who want to “highlight” the ostensibly epidemic problem of “rape culture”. So much so that they skew each others experiences, embellish or even invent them. Especially when personal accounts reinforce each other — memory is constructed after all.
The widespread narrative of “rape culture”, combined with watering down what is considered as rape/sexual assault, might incentivize such a behavior “to fight for the cause”. After all, what’s the life of an accused in comparison to the actual victims who could be helped this way? Especially if they think that all men are potential rapists. And that being accused of rape isn’t *that* bad (some people actually hold this strange belief)?
If some people actually act this way — and I have no idea whether this was the case here (I hope not) — then it solves nothing, but creates two kinds of victims. First, those who are falsely accused and whose lives are severely damaged or even ruined. Second, the men and women who actually experience sexual assault/rape. They have to deal with a horrid crime that has become a political football, in which narrative is more important than empirical data.
2/9/2024 6:15 pm
“So what you are saying is that in the case of attempted murder, or conspiracy to commit murder, it is up to the victim, and not the DA, to determine whether or not to press charges”
In cases in which the victim is the only witness, yes. Without a witness there is no case.
2/9/2024 6:18 pm
SE -
I’m not bashing you on this:
“Since when do the victims of violent felonies have the discretion as to whether charges are filed, or not?”
Since always.
I can’t remember the particulars, but over the years I’ve seen it go both ways… victims wishes being respected in terms of prosecution and their wishes being overridden (with the authorities explicitly stating that victims don’t determine whether a prosecution goes ahead, the charges, etc.) So I’m curious as to what the state of affairs is - did it change from the former to the latter at some recent (~25 years) point? Is this part and parcel of the Crime Victims Rights Act, which is at play in the Jeffrey Epstein case, and where no one seems to be disputing either that the girls should have been consulted about his plea deal and NPA, and that they weren’t?
To be clear, I’m not challenging your assertion… the Epstein case may provide an answer of sorts… in the old, pre-internet days, when victims rights were denied, it was impossible for them to get a forum.
Richard, I was kind of hoping you would give us your two cents worth on the Epstein thing…
2/9/2024 6:35 pm
In cases in which the victim is the only witness, yes. Without a witness there is no case.
Then that leaves open the possibility of counter-charges of extortion, right? I mean, if X commits a violent felony on Y, and Y withholds going to the authorities or going public with an accusation in order to get X to do such and so, then that is extortion.
In fairness, I am not saying that that is what happened in this case. However, I think that’s a more reasonable explanation for her desire to talk to him about the sexual assault (if that is indeed the case, there is actually no evidence that she ever wanted to talk to him about the sexual assault other than the annotations she wrote last week to diminish the impact of her loving and cuddly messages from the time period immediately after the sexual assault.) The alternative is that she wanted to engineer some kind of confrontation in which she would bear witness to him of his sexual assault BEFORE going to the authorities, but even that would be compromising because it would suggest the possibility that he might do something to talk her out of it. In which case we are again looking at a plausible case of extortion. To keep herself squeaky clean in this case, she would have required some witnesses to whom she had confided her experience as well as her plan to confront him. There is no evidence for either of those either, pace the FCW also alleged as recently as last week, in an annotation.
2/9/2024 7:00 pm
You guys and Richard are being tone deaf about the challenge someone who has been raped by a friend has to reckon with. To be clear: I am not saying Sulkowicz was definitely raped. But if she was, OF COURSE it would be difficult for her to process that fact and understand that his “rough sex” was in fact a crime. (A couple of people have said he punched her, when I think she said “hit” and to some extent choked.). And OF COURSE she would think that maybe there would be a conversation in which he would atone or explain or something. This is not entirely rational but it is nonetheless a reaction people have when trust is betrayed. This is not “suspicious” or “bizarre” behavior in the context of how someone processes a deep and inexplicable betrayal.
Again, there may have been miscommunication and her lack of consent may not have been clear. Or she could be a crazy liar with another agenda like Jackie. But her story about feeling the need to communicate further with this close friend, in the course of trying to find answers about the crime, is coherent. The fact that it doesn’t match the Law and Order SVU idea of how rapists should be treated is exactly the point: it is very difficult for a person to get to the point of understanding that her trusted friend is (again, allegedly) a criminal who has victimized her.
I do want to acknowledge the concern people have voiced: that supportive conversations with such a person, down the road, could put a different spin on things and make actions seem more criminal than they were. But if a *factual* description is consistent from the time of a fresh complaint (the day after), that concern is much allayed.
2/9/2024 7:02 pm
I do think blackmail and extortion are real concerns as well, and I was aware of a student situation not involving assault in which something like that was broached and briefly pursued. There are no facts to suggest there was extortion in this case, and Sulkowicz’s Facebook chats are far more consistent with the “I irrationally wanted to talk to him” story than the “I wanted all his pocket money for the next decade” story.
2/9/2024 7:14 pm
I say this only tongue-in-cheek: I would love to know whether Sulkowicz’s parents were aware of those FB messages until the Daily Beast article and if not how that was received by them.
2/9/2024 7:24 pm
SE - Okay, thanks for your responses, I don’t think we are on different continents here.
I think you are overstating the extent of their closeness prior to the distance that was created in the Fall of 2012. This is at variance with what I have heard for some time now. This in turn weakens somewhat the claim of betrayed trust, etc. etc.
The fly in the ointment is that the string of FB messages, as well as the alleged FCW, were not mentioned when she went public with her narrative. If she had mentioned them originally, there would be no revelatory aspect to it now. But because they are revelatory, and she is annotating them to remove their sting, they hurt her case, in the court of public opinion, if no other. Surely you can see that that is what is happening here.
That doesn’t invalidate your interpetation of the FB messages, and it doesn’t validate mine. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on that. Best regards.
2/9/2024 7:33 pm
Fair enough. Hey, so, I just randomly clicked a month in the Richard Bradley archive and, no kidding, this post came right up. (Honest.) I’m not posting it to claim Richard’s views have changed, but I wonder if he would now say they have changed.
“In later years, Brodhead became the dean of Yale College, and subsequently the president of Duke. Throughout, he’s handled himself with a similar sense of decency and respect for the values of a university.
“So my heart goes out to Brodhead now that he’s enmeshed in a hideous controversy at Duke; an African-American woman says that she was raped by three white players of the Duke lacrosse team. (Charlotte Simmons was a terrible book, but perhaps Tom Wolfe did get some things right.)
“Brodhead has cancelled the rest of the team’s season, which seems appropriate given the ugly circumstances of what may or may not have happened.
“But you have to love the eloquence and fair-mindedness of his statement on the matter.
” ‘In this painful period of uncertainty, it is clear to me, as it was to the players, that it would be inappropriate to resume the normal schedule of play,â Brodhead said, according to InsideHigherEd.com. âSports have their time and place, but when an issue of this gravity is in question, it is not the time to be playing games.â
“And in a statement quoted by the Times, Brodhead said: “While we await the results of the investigation, I remind everyone that under our system of law, people are presumed innocent until proven guilty. One deep value the university is committed to is protecting us all from coercion and assault. An equally central value is that we must not judge each other on the basis of opinion or strong feeling rather than evidence of actual conduct.”
“Responding to a question about outraged reactions to the alleged incident, Brodhead said, “How can I be surprised at the outrage? If the things alleged are verified, they’re outrageous.”
“It is refreshing to hear simple, honest and direct speech that educates without inflaming. We should expect that from university presidents, but it doesn’t always happen.”
For my own part, I think all the things Brodhead said were important. But I’m not sure that canceling the season quickly was correct.
2/9/2024 7:39 pm
And SE, if you think that Columbia spoke to this FCW, and still reached the conclusion that it did, then you must think either that the FCW was not credible or that Columbia erred in its conclusions. Which one?
Accepting for the moment that this FCW is real, as opposed to an ex post facto fabrication to support Sulkowicz narrative, another possibility is that said FCW did indeed here from Emma the next day, and the FCW didn’t find her story credible.
Bringing such a witness to the attention of Columbia or the police would then tend to undermine Emma’s narrative.
2/9/2024 7:39 pm
On the other hand, both I and the poster who was discussing this earlier might be forgetting that the school — and its professors! — could consider hiring strippers for a team event (albeit an unofficial one) to be in itself a disciplinary violation of a medium-high order.
2/9/2024 7:50 pm
Hi, SE. I’m just curious, where do you see Nungesser avoiding Sulkowicz? He’s the one who asks (after missing her at the party) when she’s coming. He gives her his new cell phone number and asks her to text him so they can “hang out.” He reaches out to her twice in early 2013 and she doesn’t respond. She also confirmed his story that when she texted him in March 2013 and said she wanted to meet (to set up a conversation about the alleged rape), he was willing to meet and she was the one who backed out.
I also think you’re somewhat downplaying the violence of the attack as she described it. She says that he hit her across the face and choked her so hard that she felt he “could have strangled me to death.” And yet in none of those messages does she seem to be in any fear of him. (One thing that I find really hard to believe in her annotations is that when she decides to “talk it out,” she wants to do it in person — with a man who supposedly lashed out at her in savage and completely unprovoked violence.)
The annotations have other oddities which I discuss in an upcoming article on the Minding the Campus website. I’m not saying that I’m convinced Nungesser is innocent. (One possibility, which I think has been mentioned in this thread, is that neither of them is telling the truth — for instance, that he did something coercive but not nearly as violent as she claims. It could be, for instance, that the anal sex was uncomfortable for her and she asked him to stop but he didn’t stop right away. I want to stress that he didn’t say anything in our interview to indicate that but obviously his statements shouldn’t be taken at face value.)
But to me, Sulkowicz’s annotations raise more questions than they answer — such as the sudden appearance of the girlfriend to whom she told about the rape the day after. As far as I know, no such friend testified at the hearing. Why not? This would be crucial corroborating evidence.
2/9/2024 7:55 pm
And here perhaps is the nut of the matter:
“You guys and Richard are being tone deaf about the challenge someone who has been raped by a friend has to reckon with.”
Fair enough. There are two things going on here: 1) An honest disagreement by both sides on the closeness of the relationship, and 2) the men not fully understanding the personal betrayal involved on top of the rape, if in fact there was one, and if they were indeed somewhere past acquaintances and towards real friends. In the context of that kind of betrayal, seemingly irrational behavior perhaps isn’t so irrational.
The flip side is that women don’t seem to fully understand how frightening the prospect of being falsely accused is for a guy. The actual percentage of false claims may be relatively low, but that still translates into a lot of them (as an example, the White House acknowledges that they knew even before the Affordable Care Act was passed that ~5% of the population would lose their insurance… that’s ~15 million people, hardly a small number in spite of the low percentage).
It’s normal human behavior on both sides, but until both sides can walk in the other side’s shoes, we’ll continue shouting past each other.
2/9/2024 8:13 pm
Most liberals seem to forget that their sainted Al Gore was accused a few years ago of sexual assault by a massage therapist that he used at a hotel he was staying. The police investigated and concluded that there was insufficient evidence to arrest the former VP. Now, the question to all you liberals out there, is Al Gore a sexual predator or not? I won’t ask you if Bill Clinton is guilty of sexual assault, we KNOW he is definitely a sexual assaulter (you do agree-right?).
2/9/2024 8:31 pm
Jimbo,
I don’t agree, but this is because I’m an actual liberal. This trend towards throwing out due process and playing to mob and witchhunt dynamics is utterly illiberal and reminds me quite a lot of McCarthyism. Lewinsky and Clinton were consenting adults. I don’t know anything about the Gore case.
2/9/2024 8:47 pm
Vista —
The legal standard for Clinton/Lewinsky-type relationships in the workplace is an imbalance of power where there is some sort of direct or indirect reporting relationship between the individuals (I’m paraphrasing - I’m not a lawyer).
By that measure, the relationship certainly should have been off-limits. But to consider whether or not liberals let the Perjurer-in-Chief off easily, we need to try and consider the consequences of a similar relationship, which is kind of difficult since we’ve had only a few Presidents since those kind of extra-curricular activities became of interest to the press and thus verboten.
In spite of the difficulties of a direct comparison, there is one from the same era that is quite instructive: Dick Cheney was CEO of Halliburton at the time. Does anyone really believe they would have pooh-poohed his carrying on in a similar fashion if he were and it became public? I think we all know the answer is no.
Having said that, I don’t think the Republicans should have gotten their shorts in a knot over the perceived lack of morality of it all, especially given that so many Republicans seem to come up a little short on that measure. They should have impeached him on the fact that he plead to perjury, and given that he appoints our nominal top legal beagle, the AG, and so is effectively is boss…
2/9/2024 8:52 pm
Ms. Young,
The avoidance is all in September and October and is quite clearly indicated in Ms Sulkowicz’s annotations as the key theme of her experience of the Facebook contacts: she wanted to find a time to talk to him one-on-one but he wasn’t very cooperative and she couldn’t / didn’t make it happen. I take her at her word that she phased out of this “denial” mode and realized that in the later months she didn’t generally want to be in contact with him anymore.
I am not impressed with your statement that, to you, Sulkowicz would be more credible if she showed physical “fear” on the face of her Facebook chats. This shows a lack of insight about how people construct their self-presentations in online interactions, as well as a grotesquely oversimplified view of how those who have been assaulted by a friend are supposedly immediately capable of flipping a switch and seeing that trusted person as a monster capable of sexual violence in broad daylight. Would you really have expected Sulkowicz to write Nungesser coldly and fearfully and propose that they get together along with some pepper spray and an armed chaperone for a serious “sesh” in which she accuses him of rape? Her actual notes are much more in accord with human nature than the ones you (or I) might have scripted for her.
In general, my sense is that both you and Erdely are prone to overgeneralization and not particularly interested in individual human stories. Obviously, you are more professional and journalistically ethical than she is, but this does not necessarily equip you to do a good job with the kind of investigation you’re trying to do. You should team up with an expert who has worked through a couple of dozen rape or maybe-rape aftermaths, to learn how accusers and confused maybe-accusers work through the task of trying to communicate — with themselves, with others, with the men involved — about what happened.
There is no substitute for actual experience in these situations. Gut reactions about what responses are “normal” for a victim (or confused maybe-victim) are not reliable.
Respectfully,
Standing Eagle
2/9/2024 8:54 pm
SE-In retrospect, I’d agree with you; I think canceling the season so fast was probably a mistake. That said, it may have been inevitable sooner or later. But I like Brodhead—I’ve known him slightly for almost 30 years—and he’s always struck me as an honorable man. And I think the language of his that I quoted is generally right; imagine if Teresa Sullivan at UVA had said, “I remind everyone that under our system of law, people are presumed innocent until proven guilty.” Some people would actually have been pretty pissed at her if she said that, but she would actually have had the virtue of being right…
2/9/2024 8:56 pm
Also, SE, I do now think that I am being tone-deaf regarding what someone who has been raped has to deal with; I actually accept the premise that someone who’s been raped, particularly in a situation where she knows her accuser, might not respond the way logic would suggest. I’m just far from convinced that this is what happened here.
2/9/2024 8:56 pm
Excuse me, that should read “I do *not* think…”
Sort of a major typo there.
2/9/2024 9:19 pm
Oh, and one other thought, SE: There’s another problem with your argument about people not responding as you’d think they might. Agreed, it’s possible. But according to Sulkowicz, she does quite a rational thing the morning after the alleged incident: She talks to a friend about it. If we assume that this is true—granted, a big assumption—then Sulkowicz doesn’t appear to be acting like someone in trauma or shock. It’s only weeks and months *later* that she is allegedly acting irrationally, like someone who’s been raped might. Can illogic follow logic? I’m sure it’s possible. But things are getting pretty convoluted here.
2/9/2024 9:23 pm
InterestedObserver:
That legal standard is an instance of state overreach into the private sphere. This is a liberal view. The conservative view, near as I can tell, is that men in positions of power ought to be better than Clinton was at preventing his affairs from leaking out.
2/9/2024 9:24 pm
Read the actual investigations she lost and mattress girl looks even more slimy.
2/9/2024 9:31 pm
We have no idea what form that conversation took, and just a few hours ago you were complaining that it didn’t lead directly, as it logically should have, to corroborating evidence of the complaint. So it hardly seems fair to now treat it as evidence that Sulkowicz was proceeding in a cool and rational manner and therefore should be held to that standard from that date forward.
I’ve written before about the madonna/whore problem — anyone who gets upset about unwanted sex is feeling regret about her lost
innocence, anyone who doesn’t act out is not legitimately upset and why should she be because she has sex all the time. We should all agree that facts can cut in both directions, and not move too fast to adjudicate what they definitely mean. (I was guilty of this myself when I heard “Andy’s” real story, without knowing about Jackie’s catfishing agenda.)
Anyway, and with all that said, I think it’s legitimate for me to point out that just now you’re indulging in some damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t argumentation.
2/9/2024 9:33 pm
I also think, in fairness to Ms. Young’s argumentation, that if the accused at Columbia was “not allowed to introduce” the Facebook exchanges for the deans to consider, then that is an astonishing breach of protocol.
2/9/2024 9:39 pm
“I was too ashamed to do anything about his for several months, but not I’m not too ashamed to walk around a college campus toting a mattress….and I get credit for it in my imbecilic college major.”
2/9/2024 9:41 pm
Did Nungesser tell you why he didn’t release the transcripts of the Facebook chats sooner? It seems to me that he could have spared himself a fair amount of grief if he had and would have been able to derail the “Sulkowicz is a Victim-Hero” mindset before it became a widespread phenomenon.
2/9/2024 9:42 pm
Why don’t Columbia men just date off-campus? This doesn’t seem worth the trouble.
2/9/2024 9:45 pm
She consented to anal sex. She did not want to be known as one who consents to anal, so she lied and claimed to have been forced.
2/9/2024 9:46 pm
SE erroneously states in arguing why Nungesser couldn’t win a defamation suit - “This isn’t true. People are protected from statements that are KNOWN to be false by the people making them.”
That standard - knowledge of falsehood or reckless disregard for the truth - is the case if the person being discussed is a public figure. The standard for defamation is lower, however, when making statements about someone who isn’t a public figure. I’m not sure if Nungesser would prevail, but that’s not the standard that he needs to meet to do so.
2/9/2024 9:50 pm
“I also think, in fairness to Ms. Young’s argumentation, that if the accused at Columbia was “not allowed to introduce” the Facebook exchanges for the deans to consider, then that is an astonishing breach of protocol.”
That “breach of protocol” is something which the campus grand inquisitors have been pushing for for years. Evidence which might favor the accused is deemed to be potentially “traumatizing” for the accuser, so it’s not permitted to see the light of day.
2/9/2024 9:51 pm
Dave,
You are absolutely right. I should have double-checked this. I am eighteen months removed from the bar exam and I was not methodical enough. Nungesser would only have to prove that Sulkowicz was “negligent” in claiming he had raped her, such that a “reasonable person” could not have thought he had done so.
I give him a 15% chance in such a trial.
2/9/2024 9:53 pm
Vista -
I wasn’t commenting on what I thought the standard should be, only what it is. It might surprise you to learn that I agree completely and unequivocally with your assessment about the state overreach. I would only quibble that it’s more of a libertarian viewpoint than a liberal one. But I’m glad you pointed it out to me… you are the first liberal I’ve ever encountered that complained about state overreach in anything.
I think that there is a very clever joke in your comment about the conservative viewpoint. I can’t comment on what their viewpoint is, because I’m not really sure what it is (beyond something undoubtedly hypocritical), although I can tell you that I wish it were the same one as ours.
I’d add that your and my view doesn’t appear to be shared by liberal feminists. They are the ones who have on the one hand insisted on this standard and yet on the other hand ran around saying, as the president of NOW did, that they wouldn’t mind Clinton getting into their pants, all at the same time as he was being accused of being a sexual predator. As a matter of fact, I know the liberal feminist viewpoint is that it’s the nature of the charge that matters more than any evidence, but I still find it odd that he paid Paula Jones a million bucks to settle her claim if he was really innocent, meaning that he effectively worked for free his first term.
It was also liberals, as I recall, trashing Paula Jones for not having made a wiser choice in selecting her parents, mocking her for choosing parents who were poor and lived in a trailer park, and for giving her genes that didn’t have movie star good looks. Definitely not liberal of the liberals to behave this way, or at least definitely not liberal of the way they profess to act and be. I’ll be polite and not mention the hypocrisy of Hillary Clinton lying and protecting him and having her staff — remember Betsy Wright, her Chief of Staff telling us that her main job was putting out ‘bimbo eruptions? — besmirch women who were by all appearances, and who were later proven, like Jennifer Flowers to be telling the truth.
But thanks for the reply.
2/9/2024 9:57 pm
SE wrote, ‘Although people accuse Sulkowicz of “waiting six months,” the truth is that she and a friend discussed the incident the NEXT DAY and determined that it should be considered rape.’
She had to DISCUSS it before she decided it was rape? And then STILL WAITED 6 months to report it? WTF?????
SE wrote, “I am suspicious that you have been marinating in your comments section, and this is distorting your view of reality in general.”
I’m certain you and Sulkowicz have been marinating in feminist theory and this is hugely distorting the view of reality you both hold.
SE wrote, ‘We are trying to have a society here.’ Yeah, where men accused of sexual assault are guilty until proven innocent, unlike EVERY OTHER CRIME. Just like black men before the Civil Rights movement.
UNACCEPTABLE.
Go to hell.
2/9/2024 10:01 pm
Not trusting women because you have trouble believing their accusations is just wrong. Period. What the Right Wing is doing to Ms. Sulcowicz is no different from what was done to Betty Parris and Abigail Williams.
2/9/2024 10:09 pm
NateWhilk,
I’m ready to stand corrected on this, but the lovely ES insists on telling us — without providing any supporting details — that she has experience in these matters and because we — the men — don’t, her views are morally superior to ours. Did you notice how she lectured Cathy Young in her condescending passive/aggressive way? Standing Eagle… oh, my!
She reminds me of Lena Dunham, who seems to think claiming to be a victim is a mark of sisterhood and shrouds everything she does in terms of her caring for victims, yet as far as I can tell, she hasn’t done anything beyond moving her lips.
2/9/2024 10:16 pm
This new type of feminism which automatically awards women a legal and discursive advantage over men strikes me as a veiled method of reproducing the relative poverty of women. Men will seek out women who are relatively poor, so as to counterbalance the relative advantage women enjoy legally and discursively. That keeps the relationship “equal.” First-wave feminism grasped this: the only way to elevate women’s political and material status is to give women and men genuinely equal treatment under the law. Any inequality under the law will always work against women’s advantage in the end.
2/9/2024 10:22 pm
This shouldn’t need to be said, but apparently it does…
There is a huge difference between giving women the benefit of the doubt until there is reason to do otherwise and not trusting women because of skepticism of their accusations.
Whatever would we do without that old straw man Mr. Right Wing? Somebody should give him credit for providing a foil for people who have no stronger arguments.
2/9/2024 10:27 pm
InterestedObserver
You’ve never heard liberals complain about state overreach in matters of pot prohibition? Domestic wiretapping? State bans on sodomy? State bans on gay marriage? Requirements that flags be flown, anthems be sung, allegiances be pledged?
I’ll say again, I do not consider this campus sexual assault hysteria to be a liberal movement; I believe it has much more in common with McCarthyism than it does with the political philosophy of John Stuart Mill or John Rawls. Right now it’s very much inside the Democrat coalition, but sooner or later the contradictions are going to cause that coalition to splinter (just like the GOP has lost its ability to get the the Bible-thumpers and the Ayn Rand quacks to get along). I’d like to get most of the feminists back into the dispositionally liberal fold before that splinter happens.
2/9/2024 10:43 pm
Vista —
Touche! I stand corrected. Of course I’ve heard of those things. Can I sell you a bridge and plead ‘rookie error’?
You sound to me like a classical Democrat, for whom I have great admiration, and not one of today’s.
Everyone talks about the Republicans having all the loonies, but the Democrats long ago chased all the moderates out of the party. When Rahm Emmanuel ran the Democratic Congressional Committee, he insisted on no ‘purity tests’ in terms of unquestioning allegiance to party doctrine, especially in matters of conscience, and look what happened… they took the House of Representatives. Once he left, that philosophy was heaved overboard and they lost the House. The country is worse off for it, and not because I think Democrats are better than Republicans… each party needs moderates (and a few outliers, although not too many!).
2/9/2024 11:00 pm
SE, I think the difference between our approaches is summed up by your comment, “I take her at her word.” I don’t, particularly since some of her interpretations seem a bit far-fetched (see, for instance, the way she reads Nungesser’s comment that he’d like to see her even though his room is a mess as an attempt to guilt-trip her into helping him clean up). I don’t take him at his word, either. (Though I have to say, so far everything he told he me that I could check out has checked out.)
She says he was avoiding her. He says they kept missing each other when they wanted to get together one-on-one, and that maybe she was pulling away because she was in a new relationship. Note that in the birthday message, he asks (in Spanish) “where are you in my life?”
I understand that these are Facebook exchanges and that people have an “online persona” that may differ from their real-life behavior. I’ve been in a lot of online chats and I’ll say that the vast majority of the time, you can sense when something is “off.” (I’ve actually had the experience at least three times that I can recall of having an online friend get upset at me and repeatedly asking them what’s wrong only to be repeatedly told “everything’s fine” and then find out later that they were, in fact, upset about something.) If you look at the Emma/Paul chats, there is no change in tone from “before” to “after.” The flow of dialogue is entirely natural. I could MAYBE buy that “we need to hang out and talk about life and thingz” is her way of trying to set up a talk about the rape without making him suspicious. But when she adds “because we haven’t had a paul/emma chill sesh since summmmerrrrrr” …. yeah, okay, it doesn’t RULE OUT that he violently raped her, but it makes it extremely improbable, IMO.
Also, your “you can’t just flip a switch and start seeing a longtime friend as a monster” comment isn’t very convincing to me when the allegation is of such extreme and, well, psychotic violence. If someone suddenly hits you in the face, starts choking you, and subjects you to an excruciatingly painful rape, that will flip the switch all right.
What would I expect? I would expect Emma to be physically terrified of Paul and not want to be anywhere near him, not as a matter of rationality but as a matter of instinct. If she did want to “talk it out with him,” I’d expect her to do it by email or phone out of concern for her own safety.
Again, it’s conceivable that this is not how she reacted, despite being brutally raped. But there are just too many things here that don’t make sense.
2/9/2024 11:03 pm
Oh, and in response to the question about why Nungesser didn’t release the Facebook chats sooner: I think he was looking for an appropriate way to do so in a venue where it wouldn’t end up being ignored.
2/9/2024 11:19 pm
Is SE commenting Sabrina Erdely? The discredited feminist reporter of Rolling Stone fame and her completely outlandish and mostly made up account of “Jackie”, the juvenile but love struck freshman looking to impress a boy? SE, please go away and hide in your hole and never, ever, ever come out. Please…..
Just saying…….your opinions aren’t really worth the bits and bytes they are written on……
On another note, go Richard B.!! Great comments on these crazy feminist antics on campuses across the country, being sponsored by the Democratic party in an effort to gin up the single college-educated female vote. Keep stirring the pot guys, you’re making the country a better place.
2/9/2024 11:24 pm
“Is SE commenting Sabrina Erdely?”
I very much doubt it.
2/9/2024 11:31 pm
Interesting Observer, I think you missed the joke in the “C. Mather” comment about believing women. It’s a Salem Witch Trials reference.
2/9/2024 11:39 pm
Cathy Young —
Thanks for pointing that out to me. I’m not totally up on that aspect of history although I have been to Salem, so I guess I’ll need to investigate to find out what the joke is.
I stand by my straw man comments. It makes me crazy how some people on either side of the isle — whether a political issue or not — choose sides based on labels rather than trying to be fair. For my part, I try to be an equal opportunity curmudgeon…
2/9/2024 11:41 pm
Abigail Williams and Betty Parris were two of the girls who accused people of witchcraft. (C. Mather is Cotton Mather of course.) The post is trying to point out that “Believe the accusers” is a witch-hunt mentality.
2/9/2024 11:45 pm
Thank you. Now as then, the burden of proof on the accused seems to be pretty much the same… we’ll truss them up like turkeys and throw them in the water and if they don’t drown…
Proving a negative is probably easier.
2/10/2024 12:15 am
BTW, great reporting Cathy Young! I’m a fan of your dispassionate quest for the “truth”. Keep it coming!!
2/10/2024 12:23 am
Carrying a mattress is more something an “activist” would do than a victim would do-according to several victims I spoke to.
It appears Cathy Young sought out to get both sides of the story.
Sorry Jezebell, not.
2/10/2024 12:25 am
Also, I understand an online persona is differnt. Saying you “miss someone” that raped you?
*agenda*
2/10/2024 12:35 am
See what happens when a reporter like Cathy Young does her job and seeks out the other side? Who would know the Mother would be a feminist.
I am no fan of Rush Limbaug, but damn it, he is right about one thing:
Feminist are usually unattractive women who use their agenda to get media attention.
I know plenty of people who were raped, let me tell you, they would not be running to the NYT or Jezebell-if they did, it would be years because the of the trauma and the help of therapy.
2/10/2024 12:48 am
I meant to say (rest in bold
I am no fan of Rush Limbaug, but damn it, he is right about one thing:
Feminist are usually unattractive women who use their agenda to get media attention, otherwise they would not get the media attenton
Ironic, while Sabrina Erdley was ok Cloud 9, excited that the Washington Post had interviewed her she tweeted about it, for such a “blockbuster” “bombshell” no network came running.. Perhaps they smelt the BS.
2/10/2024 12:49 am
The rest of my comment not in bold I used the wrong HTML tags.
2/10/2024 12:51 am
You know what, I’m being mean but truthful.. I need to exit. The SE troll who is condoning real journalism.
2/10/2024 12:55 am
Cathy Young,
You are a journalist who should never take anybody at their word, you should always fat check like you did in your article, thank you. Good Job. Hell, Look what happens to Sabrina Erdley when she did not fact check.
2/10/2024 12:57 am
Anonymous 12:35, 12:48 & 12:49 — are you drunk blogging, or are you just that thick?
2/10/2024 1:00 am
…also, 12:51. Sigh.
2/10/2024 1:06 am
@SE
“But if she was, OF COURSE it would be difficult for her to process that fact and understand that his “rough sex” was in fact a crime.”
This is such an absurd statement to make. It’s not difficult to process and understand the fact that you were raped, you KNOW you were raped during the rape (unless you were unconscious).
This is what I find ridiculous of all these public rape claims. Unless the victim is below 18 years old, there is no reason for a woman to take months to understand or have someone else explained to her that she was raped. You just know.
And yes the Facebook messages are a strong evidence for Nungesser. Emma claimed she was an emotional wreck after the rape and traumatized with his presence in campus, but yet the messages showed she was completely fine with messaging her ‘rapist’ and meeting up with him voluntarily. This completely raises doubt on her accusations.
2/10/2024 1:22 am
@Gal
Memories become increasingly distorted with time. Usually initial impressions are usually more reliable. That’s the whole problem with recovered memories.
When someone is OK with a sexual encounter at first, then decides that they have a problem days later (usually after consulting some militant feminists who weren’t on the scene), it probably wasn’t rape.
2/10/2024 1:31 am
SE Commenting as soon as somebody asked if it was Sabrina Erdley.
2/10/2024 1:33 am
SE commenting as soon as somebody asked if it was Sabrina Erdley commenting. Oh, she is “standing eagle ” *smirks*
Hi “SE” Sabrina.
2/10/2024 1:34 am
SE QUIT commenting ask if she was Sabrina Erdley.
Sorry for the multiple comments, I was trying to use my microphone and not type.
2/10/2024 1:35 am
OMG. I give up, its late. Good night. LOL.
Obviously, you knew what I meant to say, Smart people in this room.
2/10/2024 1:37 am
Anonymous, you are an embarrassment.
2/10/2024 1:54 am
SE- it frightens me that you have obviously been involved with cases like this as you stated here;
“And Columbia is not allowed to comment in public about an individual case. As I say, I am confident BECAUSE I HAVE PARTICIPATED IN THESE INVESTIGATIONS that if Sulkowicz mentioned her fresh complaint witness to Columbia, Columbia then spoke to that person.”
It frightens me immensely because it is obvious that you only see the complainants point of view and seem to automatically discount the defendants view. Your faith in this fresh complaint witness as an infallible source and actually your use of the words “Fresh Complaint Witness” shows that you live in the world of feminist academia and no where near the real world. Lord help the poor man who would find you sitting on his jury no matter what the accusation. Your defence of this girls facebook flirtations is astounding in its absurdity.
Please, do yourself and society a favor and walk away from any involvement in sexual accusations or the adjudication of such accusations. You seriously can’t see the forest for the trees.
2/10/2024 6:01 am
Re the person who suspects SE of being Sabrina Erdely: That’s just silly.
Standing Eagle is obviously a Native American (from the same tribe as Elizabeth Warren).
2/10/2024 7:07 am
I-Roller —
That is obviously hate speech! How dare you?
So what if Warren doesn’t have a Certificate of Indian Blood or that she refuses to release her applications to Penn U or Harvard, where suddenly she got a job with tenure after years of non-tenured positions at non-Ivys.
I’m sure SE has a explanation for it (even if it’s stupefying to the point of hilarity). Even if for once she doesn’t, Warren must be a real Native American because other people who have falsely claimed to be Indians have gone to jail for it in the past, and the only place Warren has gone is to the senate.
Oh, that’s right… she is a senator from the bluest of blue states, where identity politics trumps everything…
2/10/2024 7:29 am
P.S. It’s utterly disgraceful how we treat Native Americans. Leave it to the libs to be fraudulently abusing their shameful state for personal gain… “It’s not how we walk the walk, but how we talk the talk that matters.”
2/10/2024 7:48 am
SE really discredited herself even further when she compared Cathy Young to that vicious fraud SRE.
She probably also thinks that the Jezebel hit piece is serious journalism.
2/10/2024 7:50 am
Ms. Young:
You are not paying attention.
1. You say, “some of her interpretations seem a bit far-fetched (see, for instance, the way she reads Nungesser’s comment that he’d like to see her even though his room is a mess as an attempt to guilt-trip her into helping him clean up).”
Two inches above that annotation Sulkowicz explained that he had asked her IN PERSON to help him move all that stuff. That was the activity she was supposed to come over for. When he says the room is a mess he is clearly reiterating that he really wants her help. It’s bizarre that you can’t absorb what the red letters say. (If he told you that in fact he never asked in person for her help, that is a different matter. But from here it just looks like you’re not reading what is put in front of you.)
2. I suggested that you might consider an expert consultant to help you sort through the process someone goes through when they have had a nonconsensual and violent sexual encounter with someone they trusted intimately. I indicated that general human intuition was not as reliable as expert experience.
Your response: “[this] comment isn’t very convincing to me when the allegation is of” something so violent. If it were me, Cathy Young, something so violent “will flip the switch all right.”
“What would I expect? I would expect Emma to be physically terrified of Paul and not want to be anywhere near him, not as a matter of rationality but as a matter of instinct. If she did want to “talk it out with him,” I’d expect her to do it by email or phone out of concern for her own safety.”
In other words, Thanks, SE, for the suggestion that an expert might be more reliable than my intuition. But I ran this stuff by my intuition and also checked with what I would instinctively do, so I think I’m good, so thanks anyway.
Ms. Young: you can do a better job if you team up with someone who has experience. I think your goal of shifting the actuarial discourse from one in 5 to one in 53 is probably laudable. But when you try to report on individual stories you are showing that it’s not your strong suit to get into people’s shoes and think things through from both sides.
As to the accusation from others that I don’t think empathically from both sides’ perspective when I consider a case, it is dead dead wrong and I’ll match my record for evenhandedness against anyone’s. In fact my colleagues often said they had a very hard time predicting how I would see a case (often because they hadn’t worked through all the facts fully themselves).
SE
2/10/2024 8:00 am
From Cathy Young, more on Columbia’s mattress-girl and Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand’s witch hunt.
“The story is also a reminder that rape cases should be handled by police and courts, not universities — and not only because law enforcement and the justice system are better suited to the task. Police and court records are publicly accessible; university records are sealed by law, which means key aspects of this nationally publicized story are nearly impossible to verify. In the name of justice for both accusers and accused, it’s time to fix this broken system.”
See Instapundit for link.
2/10/2024 8:02 am
SE - I apologize completely and unreservedly for mocking you for closing your reply to Cathy Young with “Standing Eagle.”
I didn’t stop to think that it might have been related to your heritage before I hit ‘Send,’ and as such, my sarcasm was beyond the pale. This isn’t meant as an excuse, merely an explanation.
Again, my sincerest apologies.
2/10/2024 8:04 am
Note, though, that anyone involved in the university Victim-Industrial Complex will fight tooth and nail to keep their star chambers. They have a vested interest here.
2/10/2024 8:27 am
It is quite true that college confidentiality policies for disciplinary proceedings (required by federal law) make it deucedly difficult for reporters to relitigate cases after a university has acted on them.
It is especially difficult when a reporter wants to talk directly to a source (by email or Google Hangout if possible, since it’s so much more convenient logistically) but the source reads some of his or her past work and discerns a constant theme to the effect that rape is over-reported. Totally unfair.
By all means universities should stop deciding allegations of peer assault, and brawlers and vandals should be condoned on campus, to force all crime victims to get their attackers arrested by the police no later than the day after the alleged crime. This will make reporters’ jobs much less frustrating.
Sorry to be sarcastic, but that’s an absolutely terrible argument. The fact that a story has become “news” in the eyes of pundits does not mean that all such stories should be transparent forever. By that logic all divorce mediations should be public because there was so much interest in Ivana Trump.
2/10/2024 8:29 am
Mattress Girl is a “Performance Art” major. This whole thing is a class project.
2/10/2024 8:30 am
InterestedObserver, I am not a Native American. It’s a nom de frickin plume (Get it, feather, bird?) from twelve years back. I am, also, neither female nor a non-attorney.
2/10/2024 8:31 am
You think maybe they might have used this logic in evaluating their daughters texts and Facebook posts in corresponding with the other student at Columbia before making such an unwarrented public letter to the student newspaper asking for his expulsion. Bizarro-land in the house of Sulkowicz:
From a NYT article, By DINITIA SMITH,Published: December 9, 2000:
“Dr. Kerry Sulkowicz, who practices in Manhattan, corresponds with patients by e-mail and conducts psychoanalytic sessions by telephone with patients who are traveling, as psychotherapists long have. He says that using such technology is not such a big departure for psychoanalysis.”
”There are some aspects of e-mail communication that strikingly replicate some aspects of the psychoanalytic situation, as in the relative anonymity or facelessness of it, like when the patient in analysis is out of view of the analyst, it can have a disinhibiting effect on the patient. E-mail can be a very disinhibiting medium,” Dr. Sulkowicz said. ”Patients have sent me thoughts that they haven’t been able to convey in a session.”
2/10/2024 8:44 am
SE, rape is a crime. It needs to be dealt with in the courts, not in some secret star chamber. For the benefit of society at large, as well as for the benefit of the accused and the accuser.
Justice needs to be done, and to be SEEN to be done. Anything else makes a mockery of the concept of living in a country under the rule of law.
2/10/2024 8:46 am
Agreed. The courts are the optimal place. But school disciplinary proceedings are for the sake of the school community, not society at large (or its journalists).
2/10/2024 9:12 am
…and only if the outcome is accepted by any member of the school community. Something that doesn´t seem to be the case here.
2/10/2024 9:43 am
The really neglected thing here is the only things that “vindicate” Nungesser appears to be the nicey-nice IMs that the “victim” made to her “assailant” and the time between “assault” and accussation. Thus suggesting that all Nungesser needed to be “guilty” would be a next-day rape accusation, without the cordial messages.
2/10/2024 9:45 am
” I am, also, neither female nor a non-attorney.”
This SE troll is claiming to be a lawyer? LOL
Mr. Bradley, you have another ripe fruit here for a commentary analysis post, ala Nicole’s idiotic word salad comment you dissected a week or so back… IF you’re into feeding the trolls. This SE train wreck makes Nicole look halfway cogent, though.
2/10/2024 9:46 am
Both of Sulkowicz’s parents are psychiatrists in Manhattan. Did they help her with this trauma? Why was she ashamed to tell them?
2/10/2024 9:52 am
People like SE are the problem here. There’s no presumption of innocence anymore, now it’s a presumption of guilt. They are the Morality Police and have appointed themselves judge, jury, prosecutor and censor.
If you don’t get a rape kit, immediately, you forfeit any moral right to accuse someone of rape. Destroying the physical evidence is tantamount to being an accessory after the fact.
This was pretty obviously an attempt by jilted lovers to abuse the university and court systems to punish a guy for not being interested in more than casual sex.
Sulkowicz belongs in jail, and SE belongs in the kind of totalitarian moralist societies like Saudi Arabia where truth is not a defense.
2/10/2024 9:59 am
I have not expressed an opinion about whether Sulkowicz was raped.
I think it’s more likely than not — because why would someone invent this overnight? — but I am not privy to what the Columbia disciplinary body saw, read, and heard. There may have been inconsistencies between the fresh complaint (to a friend the next day) and other accounts, or that friend may have been a phantom. Although the Facebook exchanges are exculpatory evidence, they don’t tip the balance for me by any stretch.
The idea that Sulkowicz stood to benefit in her career as an activist by making a false rape charge is just dumb: she became an activist well over a year later, and there is no indication that she craved fame or distrusted men in advance. The Facebook messages show, on the contrary, that there was an intimate friendship there that she had a hard time letting go of. (Let it be noted that some people think that that should have been easier, and would have been easier for them. Perhaps. Being nineteen [and clueless about sex {especially entangled with violence}] is difficult, and you probably don’t remember it as well as you think.)
2/10/2024 10:00 am
All these years after the sexual revolution, promiscuity is bearing its natural fruit.
2/10/2024 10:15 am
When I was 19, I wouldn’t have been confused as to whether someone punching me, strangling me, and forcibly putting his penis in my rectum whilst I screamed in pain, was “rape” or not. It certainly wouldn’t have taken me six months to figure it out.
And if I’d been “too embarrassed” to tell anyone, even my parents or the police, about it, I’d likely have been too embarrassed to go about carrying a mattress on my back in order that the world and its dog knew about it.
None of this woman’s story even makes sense.
2/10/2024 10:31 am
“And if I’d been ‘too embarrassed’ to tell anyone, even my parents or the police, about it, I’d likely have been too embarrassed to go about carrying a mattress on my back in order that the world and its dog knew about it.”
Unless perhaps you were trying to compensate for what in retrospect you understood to be unjustifiable feelings of shame that you should not have felt. As a literary critic I can tell you a lot of art comes from such impulses.
(I can only imagine the venom that this comment will trigger. The very existence of liberal-arts academia for the benefit of a community of young students absolutely fills the Instapundit crowd with RAGE.)
2/10/2024 10:39 am
In my day, when a girl was upset, we just found a black guy to take the fall. That was a lot easier and it made everyone happy.
Suppose a friend pushed you down the stairs, causing you serious pain. You were deeply embarrassed by this, so you didn’t contact police see a doctor despite extensive (but non-obvious when clothed) bruising, and made no attempt to document the damage to your body. If you came to the authorities six months later, with no evidence, it’s almost inconceivable your assailant would be charged, and its very unlikely you could even win a civil judgment — especially if you’d remained cordial with them.
2/10/2024 10:40 am
SE, no rage, just sadness that, although some of your comments are lucid, and even make sense, that the larger gist of your non-stop harangue clearly leads toward a mindset of uber liberal justification after the fact that poor Emma was raped, as is clear from your comments (though you try to “present” that you are “even handed” here), without really ascribing any fault to her. It is clear this is not a black and white case, and the grey is frustrating many who wish to see it as one way or the other. But, the larger politicization of this horrible but rather statistically rare occurrence truly is coarsening our society at large. Let’s just say I am truly happy to be no where near any campus today, rather having been to college in a more innocent and tranquil time.
2/10/2024 10:46 am
SE, you keep referring to expert opinion but have yet to cite any opinion but your own. E and P were not in a relationship - they were friends with benefits. This is not a case of domestic violence. Nor it is a case of a woman being raped while she was unconscious. It is allegedly a case of sudden, violent, painful rape by a friend. Please provide an expert cite that says it is common for a woman who is violently and painfully raped by a friend to then continue to jovially contact said friend in order to talk and hang out in private.
As CY said, this strains credulity. If you have expert evidence to the contrary, please provide it. Your opinion does not cut it anymore than E’s annotations do - neither ring true to a reasonable person. So if you have evidence that this in fact normal behavior in the circumstances, please provide it.
And remember, we need evidence about women who were 1. VIOLENTLY and painfully raped and 2. NOT (and never) in a relationship with the alleged perpetrator.
2/10/2024 10:50 am
RB
I´m looking forward to reading your take on Kaminer´s reporting in the NYT.
2/10/2024 10:56 am
I agree with SE, it is ridiculous and offensive to suppose someone would make up or dramatize a story simply to gain attention or sympathy.
2/10/2024 10:56 am
“If you have expert evidence to the contrary, please provide it. Your opinion does not cut it”
That’s a fair point. I’m not an expert. I’m just pointing that based on my dozen or so cases’ worth of experience (by no means all of them actionable), the Sulkowicz annotations make sense.
However, I don’t know what you mean when you say there was no sexual or intimate relationship between PN and ES. It is clear that there was. The fact that such a thing does not compute in your worldview doesn’t change the fact that it existed.
2/10/2024 10:57 am
It’s terrible the way rape victims are treated like criminals.
2/10/2024 10:58 am
Her story seems very credible.
2/10/2024 11:01 am
If the university won’t take action, we will!
2/10/2024 11:05 am
Where’s a good college I can go where I can major in accusing someone of sexual assault?
2/10/2024 11:06 am
Women never lie about rape!
2/10/2024 11:09 am
Me like Chief Standing Eagle very much. Welcome in my teepee anytime.
2/10/2024 11:11 am
SE -
I had no way of knowing it was a ‘nom de frickin plume.’ As for your not being female, I really didn’t and don’t care, and I had the ‘nor a non-attorney’ part figured out… someone saying ‘I am eighteen months removed from the bar exam and I was not methodical enough’ is usually indicative of them being a non-attorney, which I must say is an interesting formulation.
You will note that I didn’t apologize for calling you out for being supercilious and condescending to Cathy Young, who was entirely civil and polite to you, and and has continued to be so even after your abhorrent treatment of her.
2/10/2024 11:17 am
@SE
“I have not expressed an opinion about whether Sulkowicz was raped.
I think it’s more likely than not — because why would someone invent this overnight? ”
This is another idiotic statement. Ask Jackie. Ask Crystal Magnum who accused the Duke lacrosse team. Ask Tawana Brawley. Ask Wanetta Gibson, who landed Brian Banks in prison for rape charges when all they did was only kiss, and then received $1.5 million for her rape lie.
People lie all the time, and women do lie about rape and profit from it like Wanetta Gibson. And regardless whether Emma Sulkowicz was truly raped or not, she already benefited from it. She got fame, attention and appeared in front pages in magazines. She even got invited to the State of the Union.
I have no problem of all this had her rapist was convicted in prison, but Paul Nungesser is cleared of all charges and for all purposes he is an innocent man. She could at least not reveal his name and details so he can be left alone. But now she accused him publicly, so Nungesser has the right to defend himself publicly too.
2/10/2024 11:22 am
Where’s the empathy?
2/10/2024 11:26 am
I’m starting to think there is a psychological disturbance in women the age of “Jackie” and “Mattress Girl” and Lena Dunham that is akin to Munchausen’s syndrome. It seems they will make up the most terrible, horrible stories in order to get attention. I am a female aged 47. When I was their age, in my part of the country/social mileau, the girls I knew ordinarily did not “put out” without being in a serious relationship - because, as our mothers told us, the boys wouldn’t buy a cow if they could get the milk for free. I do know of girls who “went all the way” with guys who then didn’t call (and weren’t, in the cold light of day, interested in a relationship), but the girls had the good sense to keep it to themselves … not cry rape six months later. I suppose no one wanted to be viewed as “easy,” so they kept their mouths shut. As our mothers used to say … you make your bed, you lay in it.
Nowadays, there is no shame for these girls in admitting that they did something really stupid (and frankly, trashy). Instead, they get fame and fortune and sympathy and respect and all these other things the vapid, stupid, immature girls of this era are looking for. Munchausen’s in a nutshell, as far as I can see.
Frankly, the 80’s were a lot better than today. At least when I was young, people didn’t ruin each other’s lives in the pursuit of fleeting sexual gratification.
2/10/2024 11:27 am
SE, you write:
“The very existence of liberal-arts academia for the benefit of a community of young students absolutely fills the Instapundit crowd with RAGE.”
Has it not occurred to you that many of the people in this very comments section are not from the “Instapundit crowd” but rather are college educators who have been driven to forums like this one because telling their colleagues what they really think about this topic is *literally* a fire-able, livelihood-negating offense now?
2/10/2024 11:36 am
I find myself wondering how the people who believe in “rape culture” and think Nungesser should be kicked out of Columbia would react if pro-death penalty advocates borrowed some of their rhetoric and arguments:
1. “There is a murder culture in America.”
2. “We need to make it easier to convict people who have been accused of murder.”
3. “The word of an accuser should be enough to convict someone of murder.”
4. “This process should take just a couple of months at best.”
5. “If people are falsely accused, convicted, and executed, that’s good because it will serve as a warning to anyone thinking about committing murder.”
I have a feeling that most people would say something like that would be appalling. I know some people here would argue that accused rapists on campus only face expulsion from the quasi-judicial processses at colleges. But as others have pointed out here, getting expelled from a school for sexual assault is a pretty huge black mark on one’s record and will have very long lasting impact on that person’s life. So I can’t see how people can object to treating sexual assault like any other very serious crime and having it investigated and adjudicated by the police and in courts of law, instead of by college adminstrators.
2/10/2024 11:39 am
Convicted rapists should go to jail. The college solution — give the accused rapists to lower-ranked colleges — is a mockery of justice.
2/10/2024 11:41 am
It was interesting to read through these posts and watch SE implode with her statement that “the truth is that she and a friend discussed the incident the NEXT DAY and determined that it should be considered rape.” yet when called on it she finally had to fess up that this “truth” was a Facebook annotation only made in the last week and she (SE) doesn’t actually know of any independent corroboration. Of course she blames it on “poor phrasing” on her part, but actually it shows a casual disregard for relaying the facts of this case. SE may be a passionate advocate for her side, but I wouldn’t accept anything she says on the facts of the case.
2/10/2024 11:44 am
” But school disciplinary proceedings are for the sake of the school community…”
…is to put it charitably, a crock of shit. Schools are supposed to prepare people for the real world, not provide them with a view of it that they could only otherwise get if they were abusing mind-altering drugs. Being pampered and put in a cocoon is what kindergarten is for.
Furthermore, schools extra-judicial discipline, delivered even when there is no legal finding of misconduct, is an affront to any civilized notion of justice. It might even prove to be unconstitutional… now that some of those guys at William Patterson University have sued everyone involved, perhaps we’ll see an end to this madness. I hope they have the money to take it all the way to the Supreme Court if necessary, but if not, I’m willing to contribute…
So we have a non non-attorney here, one who, judging by the slipshod nature of some of his comments here appears to be a sloppy half-doer, and who at the same time evidently fancies himself an expert on psychology, and smarter than everyone else in the room if not the world… this guy would take win, place, and show all by himself in a contest for the world’s most narcissistic individual, and even competing against Barack Obama. That’s saying something.
2/10/2024 1:16 pm
“[Liberal arts colleges] are supposed to prepare people for the real world.”
False.
“fancies himself an expert on psychology”
Also false.
“world’s most narcissistic individual”
That’s my persona for the sake of this website. It makes for good discussions when people stick to the facts.
I did appreciate the clarification when someone pointed out that Sulkowicz might be lying about the existence of a conversation the next day. Most of the other facts in the record are taken as true for the purposes of discussion, but it was quite right to point out that “the truth was that Sulkowicz CLAIMED she spoke to someone the next day.”
2/10/2024 1:20 pm
Hang in there, SE. Even when I (passionately) disagree with you, I welcome your comments here—the site wouldn’t be the same without you.
2/10/2024 1:25 pm
“whether Emma Sulkowicz was truly raped or not, she already benefited from it. She got fame, attention and appeared in front pages in magazines.”
Again, nobody wants those things.
The motives of prior false rape accusers (why not throw in Jackie?) don’t seem to apply here. If someone can explain how from the standpoint of her original accusation (or the next day) Sulkowicz could have seen a path to profit and gratification that actually would be appealing to someone in real life (a shakedown of the highly non-affluent Nungesser family? her own campus newspaper column?) I’d be interested to hear it explained. Jackie herself thought she could get Andy as a boyfriend and then thought she could explain away her bad grades. Once we learned those facts her story of assault was ACTUALLY challenged.
Instead Sulkowicz is talking into megaphones and carrying an extremely heavy mattress. There may be some vanity in this but it’s hard to see “vested” self-interest, in the sense we usually define self-interest, driving it.
2/10/2024 1:30 pm
I read the annotations. I think that everything she says would also hold true if she had consensual anal sex and was weirded out.
She starts avoiding Paul, he gets the gist that something is wrong, and so we see the on-again, off-again texts. It would also explain the awkwardness, which doesn’t necessarily come through on the texts, but which she explains in the annotations as being there.
I am not saying that I believe this is what happened, I can’t know, only that it is a just as likely an explanation as a brutal rape.
Though I will say this, I believe that rape victims will react differently and not necessarily as expected, as SE said. What we haven’t seen is any quantification of how people react. SE has a sample size of 12. Do people split 6/6, 3/3/3/3 with four different types of reactions, etc.? The question is rhetorical and just meant to illustrate a few points. 1) SE’s experience is quite limited, and 2) some types of reactions must be more common than others. Does anyone have these data? I do have to think a visceral fear of a brutal rapist would be more prevalent than “I love you” and “Let’s have a chill sesh” types of messages. Agree with Cathy Young about the tone of those texts. I found it odd that the “I love you” was completely ignored by Emma even though she annotated that particular text.
I also have to think with regard to the alternative hypothesis I state above (consensual anal sex with awkwardness afterwards), what we see actually happening would be a very prevalent type of response, quite possibly the most common. Sheer speculation here, I know.
Finally, agree wholeheartedly with SE about the waiting six months thing. Taken by itself this doesn’t mean anything, discredit anything, or take away from the charge in any way. Sometimes people take time to come to grips with what happened.
2/10/2024 1:34 pm
SE:
Two inches above that annotation Sulkowicz explained that he had asked her IN PERSON to help him move all that stuff. That was the activity she was supposed to come over for. When he says the room is a mess he is clearly reiterating that he really wants her help. It’s bizarre that you can’t absorb what the red letters say. (If he told you that in fact he never asked in person for her help, that is a different matter. But from here it just looks like you’re not reading what is put in front of you.)
And what Sulkowicz “explained” is fact, right?
No, of course I haven’t asked Nungesser about this; it would be a dumb question, and I would be likely to get a self-serving answer. However, I did notice that in her message to him (the only hard evidence we have), Emma doesn’t say “I’d love to help you” but “I’d love to snuggle with you and talk about our summers.” So, was he asking her over to help him? I don’t know. You don’t know. (And what is the point of this annotation anyway? To suggest that Nungesser is an emotionally manipulative person? If he would try to guilt-trip a friend into helping him clean up his room, it’s also more likely that he would hit her, choke her and forcibly sodomize her?) Not only are these recollections unsupported, they’re also based on self-serving and unreliable memory.
As for “experts”: sorry, but I think the threshold for expert opinion to override common sense should be pretty high. First of all, the scholarship in this area is extremely politicized, with a strong bias toward “believing the survivor.” Secondly, even in non-politicized areas, “expert opinion” is not always gospel, if only because not all experts agree. There is such a thing as junk science. Remember when numerous experts agreed that recovered memories of sexual abuse were a real thing?
Speaking of experts, one thing that is supported by actual research is that memory is highly malleable and is often edited in self-serving ways. That’s highly relevant to this situation.
2/10/2024 1:35 pm
“Instead Sulkowicz is talking into megaphones and carrying an extremely heavy mattress. There may be some vanity in this but it’s hard to see “vested” self-interest, in the sense we usually define self-interest, driving it.”
How do you usually define self-interest such that feeding one’s vanity is excluded? Is money the only measure of self-interest?
Some people desire fame, attention, respect, adoration of an utterly uncritical group of activists, invitations to the SOTU, and having others give a shit when you stand up and speak into a megaphone. (Face it, most megaphone-carrying individuals deserve to be ignored.)
Much the way “Jackie” seemed to double down on her falsehoods once she was embraced by the campus activist community, Sulkowicz seems to have a story that evolves (and dodges and weaves) as she gets more attention. And while working hard to make people hear your story only to get angry about invasions of privacy when people start asking questions about that story may or may not be a typical reaction of rape victims, it is definitely a typical reaction of fabulists.
2/10/2024 1:36 pm
David, that’s the first on-point response to my actual comments that anyone has made. (And it is possible that the new element of anal sex could be the trigger, if it was qualitatively different to ES from what they has done before.) Thanks.
2/10/2024 1:43 pm
And yet, even after being corrected, you write:
“I have not expressed an opinion about whether Sulkowicz was raped.
I think it’s more likely than not — because why would someone invent this overnight?”
2/10/2024 1:44 pm
This guy’s an attorney, or a non non-attorney (in his own formulation, and whatever that’s supposed to mean that’s different from being an attorney)?
SE 2/10/2024 9:59 am;
I have not expressed an opinion about whether Sulkowicz was raped.”
,,,and in the very next sentence in the same post…
“I think it’s more likely than not — because why would someone invent this overnight?”
I can’t be bothered going back through his posts to see if this his first expression of an opinion, but I’m pretty sure that is isn’t. But it doesn’t matter.
So we now know, if we didn’t before, what his opinion is (as if no one could discern it before), and although he is likely to disown it with some bogus legalism like Clinton’s “It depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is” or Obama’s assertion that he doesn’t consider taxes to be taxes if they are good for you (read: he thinks that they are good for you), or some claim of having misspoken or been imprecise or …
Logically speaking, there are only three possibilities for him: 1) He is a troll, which given his rude behavior to anyone who politely challenges him makes it quite likely; 2) He is mentally deranged and can’t distinguish reality from fantasy; and 3) He has some sort of bizarre agenda which is beyond any rational analysis.
Whichever of these three it is, engaging him directly and even just commenting on what he says, even if it’s not directed at him, will just encourage him. My suggestion is to totally ignore him on this post and all others on RB’s blog. He’ll get tired of being ignored after a bit and move on somewhere else. I’m all for free speech, but he’s not contributing anything of value to what I’m sure RB and others would like to be a serious conversation on a serious topic, and he is in fact an impediment to that goal.
2/10/2024 1:48 pm
SE - The issue at this point is not whether Emma was raped or not, because that charge was made and was assessed by both Columbia U and the NYPD. It’s always possible that PN pulled an OJ here, but that’s just a matter of opinion at this point.
However, Emma’s subsequent conduct is very easy to interpret as self-interest.
In the first place, she got together with two other women to file a complaint against PN as a “serial rapist” (the word she and the two others have used ever since) some six months after the alleged attack. There could be self-interest at work here, if vindictiveness was a motive, and no risk, since she as anonymous at the time.
The only reason she has gone public, or, at any rate, the only reason she is toting the mattress around, is because that is her senior thesis project. So there is an obvious intersection between self-interest and her current conduct, since she is being graded on this. That covers the mattress, the public speaking, and, as far as I know, her self-outing as the rape victim.
The mattress, BTW, is not “extremely heavy.” It weighs maybe 50 pounds, which is very light for a mattress.
It’s also wrong to say that people do not desire fame, notoriety, praise, awards, etc. all of which she has received. Many people desire exactly that.
2/10/2024 1:55 pm
SE:
Maybe Mattress Girl is mentally unstable, maybe she didn’t want to be known as a girl that likes anal sex, who knows. The point is that her story is a mess and the accused’s story isn’t.
I have no idea what you base your opinion on, and I’m extremely terrified that you are a lawyer that doesn’t understand innocent until PROVEN guilty.
2/10/2024 1:55 pm
RB —
Would you check your software again?
Parts of certain posts seem to be missing, although only from one individual. I’m told certain things are false with no supporting data… surely that individual isn’t so dishonest as to make a claim they can’t support… I’m trying to be charitable here, even though that appears to be their modus operandi.
2/10/2024 2:01 pm
It’s important to note SE “stood with jackie” to the bitter end, then played this same troll semantics game when that ridiculous fabrication crashed and burned. Can I say I’m having deja vu all over again and not get called out like Richard did?
I’m with IO… ignore the troll. Cathy Young is clearly following the thread and is giving excellent comments and insight. This story too, I predict, will unravel, just like Jackie Coakley’s.
2/10/2024 2:23 pm
I would just like to point out a problem with Cathy Young’s reporting — I vividly remember Abigail turning me into a newt (well… I got better).
I’ll never forget that night, because it was just before our besom took ballista fire as we circled Pickering House — the Genista was damaged beyond repair, forcing us to make an emergency landing in the North River.
2/10/2024 2:25 pm
” My suggestion is to totally ignore him on this post and all others on RB’s blog. He’ll get tired of being ignored after a bit and move on somewhere else. I’m all for free speech, but he’s not contributing anything of value to what I’m sure RB and others would like to be a serious conversation on a serious topic, and he is in fact an impediment to that goal.”
To be fair, IO, I think SE has been a commenter here since well before RB’s observations about the RS article brought him an influx of new readers.
Besides, even though I disagree wholeheartedly with SE about most of this stuff, I’d rather participate in a blog where all sorts of voices are heard than one full of agreeable little noddy-doggies like I have on my dashboard
If you’re not confidant enough in your viewpoint to go head-to-head with someone who disagrees with you, then the solution is to work on making your arguments more robust; not to get all your friends to help you chase your opponent away.
2/10/2024 3:06 pm
Here’s a possibility:
The day after the sexual encounter with Paul, Emma tells a friend that she feels like she was pressured into anal sex and she feels icky about it. The friend responds by saying, “You were raped!” (This is, after all, the mindset taught in a lot of sexual assault awareness programs in college.) At the time, Emma brushes it off and continues to have cordial interactions with Paul. Later, as they grow more distant, she keeps coming back to the idea that maybe he raped her. Then she meets Paul’s ex and wants to talk about their relationship, and maybe that’s when they both come to the conclusion that he raped them (or “a better understanding of our shared trauma,” as she puts it in her marginalia).
Of course another possible scenario, as I said before, is that Paul did do something coercive, just not the brutal rape claimed by ES.
2/10/2024 3:17 pm
“The day after the sexual encounter with Paul, Emma tells a friend that she feels like she was pressured into anal sex and she feels icky about it.”
The only way this could be true is if she has turned the story of what happened into an actual lie. She says they never once discussed the possibility of anal sex, so the only “pressure” employed in any version of her story is hitting, choking, and holding her down while she screamed in pain for him to stop.
This isn’t like the other accuser, who has taken apparently consensual encounters and re-contextualized them as emotional abuse. She doesn’t tell a story about wishing she had been more clear about her discomfort with the situation. The story told by ES is crystal clear: she struggled and screamed. There is just no way to square her story with some kind of “grey area” theory.
2/10/2024 3:54 pm
Of course there is! She genuinely believes it was a “gray area” rape, but embellishes it with details of extreme violence to make a “conviction” more likely.
(To make it clear: Not saying this is what happened, but it’s possible.)
2/10/2024 4:09 pm
Since we are speculating, I think this was just a case of two (three) people whose personal styles, and sexual styles, are different.
PN comes across as blunt, forceful, and uncommunicative. ES and J come across as “high maintenance.” PN will consider women like that whiny and needy. ES and J will consider people like him domineering and emotionally abusive. This covers interactions outside and under the covers.
So PN hooks up with ES after a long absence (I’m pretty sure they hadn’t hooked up since the prior school year), and she “lets him” do something extremely intimate. And then nothing. He gets up and leaves, he doesn’t stay, they don’t have a long conversation, they don’t sleep together, they don’t go to breakfast in the morning, etc. etc. So she feels violated.
I should add that, speaking as an older man, I know exactly how she felt. I’ve known women who are the same way.
Does this scenario I am describing rise to the level of a sexual assault? I would say no. But I think the sense of violation was real, again, because I know the feeling. It’s hard to shake the feeling when a sex partner treats you like a piece of meat and doesn’t follow through, and again, I’m saying this as a straight guy. It happens.
So when ES met J and they compared notes they found they were dealing with the same kind of guy. And they decided to do something about it.
Bottom line is people should be more careful about who they sleep with. They ought to be very clear beforehand what the emotional and intimacy expectations are before they take their clothes off. And everyone should understand that even if you talk it out ahead of time you can never tell when love might strike, and if it does, and your partner doesn’t reciprocate, you are in trouble.
2/10/2024 4:15 pm
Cath —
Thanks for making your points in a civil manner.
I’m one of those new readers, so SE has certainly been here longer, and possibly a lot longer than me. Not to be obtuse, but sheer longevity strikes me as not being the best thing to judge by.
It isn’t that I’m not confident enough to go head to head with anybody (short of discussing math and statistics in detail — I’m challenged, as they say).
My issue is that so much of what gets posted here after Richard does his bit, and which I find fascinating in itself, seems to consist of the following (very loose guess on the percentages but accurate enough to illustrate my point):
1) 40% SE repeating the same old tropes in a rude manner (“You’re not paying attention!” or “You’re not qualified to…”)
2) 30% SE disowning what he previously said (blaming it on imprecise language, etc., or flat out pretending to address someone’s point while eliding it)
3) 10% Other people expressing interesting, respectful viewpoints
4) 15% Other people trying to respond to nonsensical and/or rude challenges by ES
5) 5% Other
So my complaint is basically the signal/noise ratio generated by SE. I’m not accusing him of being the guilty party, but on other subjects on this blog I’ve seen interesting people chased away by his kind of behavior… that’s their problem of course, but it diminishes what makes this blog great. So the way to look at it is that I’m simply being public about my overwhelming preference for the Cathy Youngs of the world over the SEs.
I generally don’t comment on who I believe and don’t believe because I don’t think I can make a rational decision — and I don’t have to — this far removed from the actual events. It’s difficult enough to do so on a jury when you are as close to the facts as you can get without having been there, and we are looking through multiple layers of filters in relying on press reports.
I have made clear on multiple occasions that one rape is one too many as is one false accusation; that I believe women deserve every opportunity that guys have and that they are every bit the equals of men in the smarts department; and that neither side of the political isle is more honest than the other, among other things. My point is that I think I’m a fair and reasonable person, without an axe to grind short of wanting fairness and justice.
I’m also more interested in the back story than the main event, so to speak… how things are done and what effect they have on the outcome. As such, I like to pick apart stuff in the same way that Richard does when he parses a sentence that he thinks is suspect. As an example, I’m interested in the whole Brian Williams kerfuffle. It’s been widely reported that his superiors knew what he was like before anointing him anchor, and if that’s true, the focus should be more on them than on him, which it hasn’t been up to now. So where most people might be interested in the topic in terms of him, I’m not. I’m not sure if I’ve make this completely clear, but here it is.
If you go back through my comments, I noted that I thought that SE was sincere but overly passionate, to the point of being detrimental to his own position. In a way, he is like SRE and RS, trying to do good and doing more harm. I’ve soured on him because of the his belligerent attitude, which I know is a occupational hazard on blogs.
I try and be polite and civil to everyone, even if I’m challenging them, and especially if they are challenging me. If you scroll back to last evening, you will find that I tried to give Vista a little tongue-in-cheek grief and got back much better than I gave.
Finally, I know what you meant, but I don’t have any friends here. People can and should make up their own minds.
So the long and the short of it is that I’m irate that SE sucks all the air out of the room without contributing as little as he does, and it’s deliberate in the sense that he thinks if he shouts loudly enough and often enough at someone he can convince them of his viewpoint, and that he is disingenuous and obnoxious in responding to others… the areas he comments on are, as with most others, not something I feel I particularly have much to add.
Sincere thanks for your comment.
2/10/2024 4:18 pm
I am certain that if Standing Eagle defended men and women of the Lakota, Cherokee, Navajo, or any other Native nation as well and as passionately as he defends women, he would be named an honorary member of those nations.
Keep standing tall , SE.
(And yes, I understand that it is a nom de plume.)
I want to know if Adam exists. Did this young man accused of rape by Emma rape another man? Or is that all conjecture as well?
Something Sabrina Erdely got right:
(From “UVa Rape Case: What We Do and Do Not Know”, Sara Ganim and Scott Bronstein, Feb. 8, 2015)
“…..For example, the university (UVa) has admitted that it never expelled a single student for committing sexual assault, even when the student admitted it…”
UVa has another alleged assault from January, 2015. The university reported the alleged assault to campus police. We will see if different results are obtained.
2/10/2024 4:48 pm
SE signs her name as “Standing Eagle”
Google “Sabrina Erdely Eagle”
Oh guess who else wrote about Madnna and the Whore? Sabrina Erdley.
“I already wrote about Madonna and the whore”
2/10/2024 4:56 pm
“One fall night, in the midst of an emotional conversation in Paul’s dorm room, Adam says Paul pushed him onto his bed and sexually assaulted him.”
This is certainly one odd allegation. It is already a strike against an accusers credibility when they appear to be going out of their way to make they allegation as vague as possible.
Is “Adam” saying that he Paul ripped off his clothes anally raped him? The only other way I could imagine this occurring is if Paul grabbed “Adam’s” genitals or something, but why not just say so? And why would you need to toss someone onto a bed in order to grab their genitals?
And what kind of journalist would publish this type of allegation without even bothering to ask the basic questions required to make the allegation make sense?
2/10/2024 5:15 pm
yawn…
2/10/2024 5:18 pm
Ms. Young,
You brought up the Sulkowicz annotation of the Nungesser “messy room” comment to show that Sulkowicz’s interpretations are “farfetched.” I pointed out that the context of the real-time interaction she describes makes it not farfetched at all. Your reaction is to say that she’s probably lying about Nungesser asking her to help him move. Really?
Then you say, in effect, “so what? If he asked her to help him move, then pouted when she didn’t help, that doesn’t mean he raped her.” Absolutely correct. Again, no one claimed that the messy-room issue reinforced her story. You brought it up to impeach her.
As to whether experts can be helpful, you are swift to generalize and talk about other things when the power of your gut reaction is questioned. My point is not that expertise is a good thing at all times, but that you’re not paying good attention to the individual specifics of this case. An expert in the emotional dynamics of (possible) rape by friends could focus you in on what Sulkowicz is actually claiming, which is — I repeat — internally coherent.
If someone can explain what in her story is inconsistent (May has called into question her claim to have spoken to someone about the nonconsent issue the next day, but the statement is ambiguous and refers only to her parents and “best friend”), that would be helpful.
Generally skeptical noises don’t add anything.
InterestedObserver, whining also doesn’t help matters. I have clarified the one imprecise thing I said, and many other things have been imputed to me (“standing with Jackie,” for example, which I never did [although at one moment I thought the story she told Andy might have been true, before the catfishing came to light] — I agreed with Richard’s analysis from the word Go). I stand by my forceful reaction to the statement about delayed accusations being disqualified from adjudication. Most people have concurred that that was an unwarranted overgeneralization, and I think Richard does too.
I am disappointed that Ms. Young believes she has nothing to learn about the psychology of young people in relation to sex. Many people devote their careers to studying it and paying close attention to individuals. I am not a psychologist but I think close attention to individuals is important.
2/10/2024 5:43 pm
“Of course there is! She genuinely believes it was a “gray area” rape, but embellishes it with details of extreme violence to make a “conviction” more likely.”
Well, that’s why I said that the only way to make this theory true is if the story she is telling is actually a lie. I would count embellishing the truth with details of extreme violence in order to secure a conviction a “lie” even if the victim honestly believes the encounter was not consensual.
2/10/2024 5:47 pm
I must ask, given the never ever, ever ending stream of blather and comments from SE: is he unemployed, is he on disability, is he old and lonely? Does anyone else here agree?
Who on earth has as much time to write as much drivel as he? Even if some is cogent, much is rambling gobbledygook.
SE, you might benefit from the words of Mies Van der Rohe: “less is more”. How about it?
2/10/2024 6:01 pm
SE:
Re the “messy room,” we have no idea what Paul was saying to Emma before the Facebook exchange. Maybe it was “my room is a mess, but I’d still love to see you.”
In any case, the bottom line is still that ES uses these annotations to take completely irrelevant jabs at Paul.
Also: I would appreciate a little less condescension. I’ve read a lot of research on sexual behavior, including sexual coercion. The problem with your reference to typical behavior after acquaintance rape is that in the overwhelming majority of cases, such rapes involve minimal force (and much of what’s classified as “acquaintance rape” in contemporary research is, I would argue, not rape at all but more like being pressured into sex). So it’s completely irrelevant to this case.
Got any research to support the contention that young women who are victims of extremely brutal rapes by acquaintances often don’t realize they’ve been raped and go on to have cordial interactions with their assailants for weeks after the attack? Please share some links.
2/10/2024 6:19 pm
SE said at 11:45am
By the time this RS scandal is over, SE is going to wish for one reader.. that’s if anyone buys her material in the future.
2/10/2024 6:21 pm
SE,
Are you Sabrina Rubin Erdely (sp?)?
2/10/2024 6:33 pm
You guys, come on. Look back at some old posts here. Commenter SE was here well before the RS/UVa thing blew up. Stop with the Sabrina Rubin Erdley conspiracy theories. Sheesh.
2/10/2024 6:48 pm
SE -
I didn’t realize that I was whining, but duly noted.
“An expert in the emotional dynamics of (possible) rape by friends could focus you in on what Sulkowicz is actually claiming, which is — I repeat — internally coherent.”
Forget that your statement is typical of your intellectual dishonest with its ‘(possible)’ rape qualifier. You want us to believe that actual rape is the same as ‘possible’ rape, whatever that is. Rape, when adjudicated in a court of law, which is the only place that it should be adjudicated, either is or it isn’t rape. You allegedly are a lawyer and should know that, and you should also know that you aren’t allowed to insert your own interpretations of what should be as what is… although it seems that you know neither thing and keep trying to do the latter in your arguments.
Put up or shut up - provide us with references to the experts noted in your quote that you have actually consulted with, and what courses and other education that you have undertaken on “the emotional dynamics of (possible) rape by friends,” and anything related to psychology as it pertains to rape. If you don’t, and elide the issue in your normal way, it will be obvious if it isn’t already just what a fraud you are.
But let’s make it interesting:
“I have clarified the one imprecise thing I said…”
You’ve just clearly stated that you have only said one imprecise thing, which is twisting my point about you disowning your own positions in various ways, but never mind. If I go through this blog, and not just this topic, and find another instance of you walking something back, will you shut up? If not, I think the above is a fair description of you.
So are man enough to take the challenge? Or are you a coward in addition to being a loudmouthed bully? Most bullies are cowards, so I won’t be surprised if you don’t take the challenge, but I’m sure that such an astute student of people as you already knows that…
Please reply with a straight up ‘yes’ or ‘no,’ and not your usual obfuscations and qualifiers…
.
2/10/2024 6:50 pm
#1 - The FB transcripts. I think both sets of transcripts are biased. On the one hand, PN is only including those snippets of convo that indicate some kind of relationship between the parties. Whereas ES is including not only most of those, but several others that she annotates.
The annotations are going to be intrinsically self-serving because what ES is doing is no different than a student writing a rebuttal in defense of the statements in his or her senior thesis, which, since her senior thesis is in effect her sexual assault, is actually to be expected. Having said that, there is virtually nothing in these annotations that can be verified.
For example, the claim that there was a FCW the day after the alleged sexual assault: that might be true, but that person has yet to emerge. And of course no one needs to be told that if such an FCW emerged at this point, after all the publicity over this case, they’d have to bring something special to the table to be credible.
Having said that, while PN’s comments are biased by selection, ES’ comments are clearly biased by annotation. For example, she ignores all the love notes from the previous summer, but feels compelled to claim that PN is “guilt tripping” her over an innocuous comment about his place being messy. Why? Then she says that they are going to meet with some mutual friend, and she feels compelled to point out that this mutual friend is no longer friends with PN. Relevance?
Then, on October 4, 2012, that is, about six weeks after the alleged assault, she sends the following message, “I love you Paul. Where are you?!?!?!?!?” But her only comment on that text is: “I’m still open to having this “talk” with him.”
So I consider her bias to be flagrant.
The overall defense to this is that “sexual assault victims” do not act in “consistent” ways. But what that also means is that there is nothing a “sexual assault victim” can say or do, after an assault, than can be considered an impeachment of the sexual assault. That in turn gets us into a never never land in which any sexual assault claim is true, just by being articulated. Context, and later conduct, is irrelevant. Luckily, our justice system doesn’t work that way.
As I understand it, Columbia refused to entertain these transcripts and dealt only with the alleged facts on the night in question. PN was found not in violation of university policy, and the NYPD didn’t believe her story, either (according to other accounts.) So that settles that.
However PN was convicted in the court of public opinion solely on her word (and her mattress) and it’s only natural that he would publish transcripts to show that, regardless of what happened, ES was still saying “I love you. Where are you!?!?!?!?!” six weeks after the alleged attack. Most people in the public are going to read that as an exoneration of PN. A few will continue to claim that that kind of sentiment is “consistent” with being a victim a sexual assault, and that’s where it will end.
2/10/2024 6:56 pm
Citing longevity as a relevant reason for giving SE a free ride is akin to Hillary Clinton claiming that the number of miles traveled in the Secretary of State’s airplane is a real, substantive accomplishment in the absence of any real accomplishments that she can site for her time in that office.
To turn your suggestion to me on its head, the one where you said I shouldn’t enlist my ‘friends’ to help fight my battles, you should let ES fight his own… he’s supposed to be a big boy and he brought it on himself.
2/10/2024 7:02 pm
Ooops…
Cath - this is directed at you, ‘site’ should be ‘cite, and ‘ES’ should be ‘SE.
2/10/2024 7:10 pm
Citing longevity as a relevant reason for giving SE a free ride is akin to Hillary Clinton claiming that the number of miles traveled in the Secretary of State’s airplane is a real, substantive accomplishment in the absence of any real accomplishments that she can site for her time in that office.
I think the appropriate Hilary response to both would be, “What difference does it make?” — surely to go down in history as one of the most mature statements of a senior cabinet member.
2/10/2024 7:23 pm
Anonymous —
I think you are forgetting her infamous ‘I misspoke’ statement when the Army security responsible for her security called her out for lying about her aircraft having to take evasive action when flying somewhere and for lying about having to run for cover on the ground when they got there (there was video of her and Chelsea calmly walking to accept some sort of award).
She misspoke?
2/10/2024 8:25 pm
As CY pointed out, SE needs to provide any evidence whatsoever that this behavior is typical for a woman violently raped by a friend. That seems to be whole of his point - that Emma’s behavior was indeed completely normal given the circumstance of a violent rape by a friend (NOT a boyfriend) - and yet his only evidence seems to be his own opinion! He tries to cite his personal experience with 12 cases (which in any event is too small a sample) yet quite predictably does not provide the number of those 12 that involved violent anal rape outside of a romantic relationship.
InterestedObserver, you are certainly right that SE has backpedaled or corrected himself numerous times in this very thread. I too thought he was trolling because of the way he purposely misconstrues what others have said.
SE, as others have pointed out, there are many reasons why she might have lodged this compliant even if wasn’t true - the most likely being if, hypothetically, she was pressured into having anal sex, thinking such a thing might transform their relationship from a friendship with benefits to boyfriend/girlfriend and then promptly regretted it when that didn’t happen and thus felt emotionally violated.
As others have said, it is simply not credible that she would have to discuss the situation with others - if it happened the way she claims - to know it was rape.
2/10/2024 8:53 pm
In school these kids were taught that everyone is a winner all the time. When this collides with the reality of the world we live in and all the heartbreak involved…It’s going to be a harsh lesson for a lot of these Special Snowflakes.
2/10/2024 8:57 pm
Ms. Young,
I am sorry if I gave the impression that I consider myself an expert in these topics. I do not. If you have done research to confirm your intuition that different levels of “force” change the way a friend reacts to coerced sex, and that Sulkowicz’s case clearly falls on the “way too forceful to be willing to speak to the assailant afterward” side, then more power to you. I am inclined to be suspicious of anyone NOT a scientist who claims that so-called “forceful” rape is more rapey, or even more violent, than “other” rape. That is because there is a long history of people demanding to see bruises and wounds before they would believe an allegation, because they were huge jerks.
On an unrelated topic, you should feel free, VeryInterestedObserver, to dig up other statements I have “walked back” over the years. My statement about “one imprecise thing” was clearly referring just to this thread (I guess it was also not precise enough), but knock yourself out.
Can anyone explain to me (citing science is great) why Sulkowicz is not credible when she says that she wanted to talk to her friend about what he did to her? I find this completely credible, upsetting though it is, and would find it credible even if the drunken rape were MORE violent. Real life is not tidy.
2/10/2024 9:07 pm
“we have no idea what Paul was saying to Emma before the Facebook exchange”
We have, on the one hand, her statement that he asked her to help him move some stuff, and on the other hand — nothing at all. Maybe she’s lying for no reason about the moving thing. Maybe a lot of things that also make no sense.
Jackie was a liar. Sulkowicz is not Jackie, but she certainly could be a liar. I prefer to figure out what someone’s real-time motives for lying might be before I decide he or she is lying.
2/10/2024 9:13 pm
“I am inclined to be suspicious of anyone NOT a scientist who claims that so-called “forceful” rape is more rapey, or even more violent, than “other” rape.”
What? What type of scientific qualification are you looking for?
2/10/2024 9:32 pm
Good lord, there SE goes again. Does he have no outside interests nor friends. Probably not, but just say NO!!! Stop your whiney, incessant need to impress everyone with your commentary. It is just not very good.
If you are a lawyer, and it is up for debate, God help any of your clients……..
2/10/2024 9:32 pm
Good lord, there SE goes again. Does he have no outside interests nor friends. Probably not, but just say NO!!! Stop your whiney, incessant need to impress everyone with your commentary. It is just not very good.
If you are a lawyer, and it is up for debate, God help any of your clients……..
2/10/2024 9:39 pm
Oh, hey, I just scrolled up a bit and realized I also made a mistake in talking about the defamation standard for nonpublic figures. To be precise, that was inaccurate rather than imprecise.
I also scrolled up a bit and noticed that InterestedObserver, who took a strong stand a few hours ago for civility and against obnoxious loudmouthedness, was very rude to me several times early in the thread. I seem to be recovering nicely though.
All these people clutching their pearls and complaining about incivility and condescension; sheesh! Why not make a substantive point instead?
2/10/2024 9:56 pm
SE -
No, I’m done. I’ve proved my point. I’ll just note that in place of the links that Cathy Young politely asked you for you gave her a reasonable admission that you are not the expert that you pretended to be while you were talking down your nose to her… or should I say at her. Good for Cathy. She deserves to be the one to hoist you on your own petard because of the good work she has done on this issue.
Good night.
2/10/2024 10:19 pm
This is comment 250 on the thread. I am dedicating it to Cathy Young’s statement of opinion about the state of the world of research into coerced no consensual sex:
“Much of what’s classified as ‘acquaintance rape’ in contemporary research is, I would argue, not rape at all but more like being pressured into sex.”
I find this statement extremely dubious and am strongly inclined to disagree with it. I can’t post links or I would track down some research and try to figure out what is the basis for this accusation against an entire body of social science, and what might be the basis besides ideology for “arguing” against it. In any event I think it is unorthodox enough that it makes a journalist more likely to become an advocate than a reporter.
I thought that statement was worth highlighting. Again, maybe it’s true an all the social scientists are out to lunch and they don’t know how to focus properly on CONSENT.
But if Ms. Young believes the definition of consent SHOULD be blurred and made less morally absolute, so that maybe some coerced sex is not criminal or a basis for community sanction — I could not disagree more with her goal.
2/10/2024 10:20 pm
Comment 251 is to apologize for a typo. Is that obfuscatory “walking back” of something I said? If so, so be it.
The typo is that the iPad turned “nonconsensual” into “no consensual.”
We regret the error.
2/10/2024 10:53 pm
SE:
I’d like to suggest you buy or borrow a copy of a book called “Stolen Valor.” The book in large part deals with the phenomenon of veterans (of the Vietnam War) and those claiming to be veterans (but actually aren’t) claiming to be various kinds of heroes and/or victims.
Some of those people do so because they are mentally ill, but a fair number of them proclaim themselves to be “hero-victims” because of the many benefits one gets from people believing them as such.
My point is that if someone can lie about being a prisoner of war who the Vietcong tortured, it does not strike me as beyond the pale that someone could do the same about being a rape victim. Because whether you agree or not, most people would argue that Sulkowicz has certainly benefited from her public “performance art.” She’s gotten uncritical praise and attention from the media and many of her fellow students. She’s made political connections that would be very helpful to her. She’s gotten several awards, and I would not be surprised at all if there’s a book deal in the works.
So I can see a motive to lie for benefit in such a case (if she is lying … which I happen to believe). And I could also see a motive to lie as revenge if she feels that Nungesser used her and didn’t love her.
2/10/2024 10:59 pm
So its the royal “We” now?
SE. The legal definition of rape in the U.S. is that it involves the use of force or the threat of thereof. Coercion is a far more broader term that includes all manner of psychological pressure.
Dear God, how are you a lawyer?
(a) Rape.— Any person subject to this chapter who commits a sexual act upon another person by:
(1) using unlawful force against that other person;
(2) using force causing or likely to cause death or grievous bodily harm to any person;
(3) threatening or placing that other person in fear that any person will be subjected to death, grievous bodily harm, or kidnapping;
(4) first rendering that other person unconscious; or
(5) administering to that other person by force or threat of force, or without the knowledge or consent of that person, a drug, intoxicant, or other similar substance and thereby substantially impairing the ability of that other person to appraise or control conduct;
2/10/2024 11:02 pm
This is possible. But the first story would require her to be a psychopath: destroying Nungesser to make herself famous with a two-year plan beginning at 19. It would help if there was any indication she saw the world of activism as attractive in advance; if so, she would be pretty unique and that would be suspicious.
The second story hinges on the belief that anal sex is more “using” a person than other kinds of sex. She might have thought this but I doubt it. If she was crazy into him why didn’t they communicate all summer before August 20?
2/10/2024 11:03 pm
SE,
*waves hand* my turn. question please:
Q. Are you Sabrina Erdely? (I apolagize if spelling is incorrect)
2/10/2024 11:31 pm
Anonymous: Colleges should punish as sexual assault both what the Model Penal Code calls rape and what it calls gross sexual imposition. (Recall that those definitions were written for purposes of locking people up, not sending them away from a school.)
Amanda: no.
2/10/2024 11:40 pm
Don’t go changing what you said.
“But if Ms. Young believes the definition of consent SHOULD be blurred and made less morally absolute, so that maybe some coerced sex is not criminal or a basis for community sanction — I could not disagree more with her goal.”
“Coerced sex” is not currently a criminal offence or the basis of any community sanction. And it’s a good thing that its not because “coercion” is far to broad a term to deal with alleged sexual assault cases in a clear and unambiguous manner.
2/10/2024 11:44 pm
Thank you, maskirovka77, this is an important point.
Emma Sulkowicz is getting a lot of support as a performance artist: NYT art critic Roberta Smith is speaking up for the idea that her matress should be bought and exhibited by the MoMA (you can find the video of their conversation at Brooklyn Museum on YouTube). Stony Brook University is anouncing a conference for March 27-28 in New York and one of two keynote speakers is … Emma Sulkowicz.
But if her rape story is a fake could “Carry that weight” still be considered a work of “pure and radical vulnerablity” (Jerry Saltz)?
2/10/2024 11:52 pm
SE:
I’m curious…what would it take for you to think Sulkowicz’s story is mostly or completely bogus? Would she have to make a confession to that effect? Or would Nungesser have to produce a video of them having their encounter with it showing her cheering him on?
I’m asking because if someone wants other people to accept an opinion that he or she asserts in grounded in facts and logic, it stands to reason that they have to be willing to state what circumstances would make them conclude they were wrong. And if they aren’t willing to do that, then that opinion isn’t much more than an emotionally rooted belief.
Turning the question to myself, what would it take for me to believe her story?
-if she had gone to the police after the incident
-if a rape kit had been done and evidence of trauma had been documented
-if she hadn’t engaged in what I consider to be a bizarre “performance art”
-if she had photographs of herself with bruises around her neck and on her face where Nungesser had supposedly hit her
-if witnesses had come forward publicly to state that she had told them about what Nungesser had done to her
-If there had been witnesses who had heard yelling/screaming from the room where the alleged rape took place
-if any communications between her and Nungesser after the incident had been much cooler and guarded
-if at least one other woman had come forward to credibly assert Nungesser had done the exact or nearly exact same thing to Sulkowicz (i.e. become violent during consensual sex, strike, choke, and sodomize).
If most or all of those things had been present in this case, I would have been a lot more willing to consider what happened happened the way she said it did. But of course, that’s not the case.
In the end, it’s a he said/she said story, and I really doubt many people would be willing to convict Nungesser of anything.
2/10/2024 11:53 pm
SE
And no, she might not have preseen all that in April 2013. But as maskirovka77 wrote, it might have been a revenge first and an occasion to get a lot of attention after she reported him.
2/11/2024 12:05 am
Since we are on the subject I feel I am qualified to speak on the matter since. I am a rape survivor. I am not English however, I don’t have perfect grammar.
I get angry when I read articles (pre hoax)Rolling Stone-Jackie, Emma, Lena Dunham and so on-or hear about the Emily Renda’s who are invited to speak at the White House to get bills and laws passed or write books and profit- Lena Dunham. Meanwhile 9 times out of 10 they did not go to the police. It took me five dang years to be able to be able to date and talk openly about it. I went to the police, he eventually pleaded guilty, I am glad I did so because he will never be able to do this to another person again. I know everyone is different and deals with trauma different; but they are leaving it so these criminals can rape again-that’s if they were raped to begin with. I say that for obvious reasons. Jackie; the man she later named that raped her; turns out he never went to the school etc., Emma see Cathy Young article.
If a woman is going to speak the press and someone else like Cathy Young is going to look at the side or speak to the accuser-they should NOT be attacked. This is what journalists should do. Journalist should not do what Jezebell does. I can’t stand them. They claim now victims won’t want to come forward and blame it on the Richard Bradley’s in journalism. No; its “journalists” like Sabrina Erdely and the broads at Jezebel is a reason why victims will not come forward. You print with-out fact checking. Obviously women do lie about rape. Or they get drunk and wake up naked with a man in bed and claim they were raped Meanwhile its regrettable sex.
I think a women should only utilize the press if the police did not even try to investigate it and/or turn her away or unless of course she wants to tell her story and she went to the police. Why leave thousands of women to be prey?
Five years ago I would have called Richard Bradley a jerk and a choice other few names (although when I read RS articles red flags were every where)
I do not think Richard Bradley is a jerk however. In the past five years (before reading RS) I can’t tell you how many stories I heard about rape, you put so much energy in to feeling sorry for them and you reach out, here to come find out because police do their job-these women admitted they lied about being raped. Most of the time it was for revenge. They were charged and if they were; they were ordered to get help. Who cares if the accused male life is hell.
Wake up people. Women lie about rape, I can not fathom why; maybe they want the so called attention they saw a real victim get? It’s not attention, it’s more like an invasion of privacy.
Please stop saying the numbers for women lie about rape are extraordinary low because they are not low.
Also please stop using the 1 in 4 ratio-the group who originally came up with numbers have said it is not 1 in 4 and asked for the ratio to not be used.
To all journalists,
You want to help rape victims tell their story?
Fact Check.
Get the other side of the story or at least try to, and don’t lie or make it seem like you tried to when questioned. When you fact check and get the other side; you won’t have situations like Jackie.
When someone like Cathy Young does YOUR job and gets the other side of the story-don’t you dare go on the attack.
Hey Jezebel,
Before you go attacking, next time pretend the accuser is your little brother-stop with your agenda! There are three sides to every story, the third side is the truth. Don’t believe the side because she has a vagina.
I don’t know how else I can say what I just did any nicer.
I know I need to work on my English, if you want to discredit me for that, that’s fine, if you are reading this sentence I know at least you read my comment.
2/11/2024 12:11 am
Thank you, Teresa!
2/11/2024 1:26 am
Good job Teresa.
I am so sorry you went through what you did, at the same time it is refreshing to hear this from someone who had the right to say it.
I remember reading on Wash Post, Sabrina Erdely had said Jackie text her and was proud of the attention the article was getting.. I wonder how Jackie feels now? I’d like to know why she lied. No, of course there will be no consequence for J. Or Sabrina. I noticed Jezebel never did a follow up post with all the things that Jackie lied about.
Richard, You are one awesome person with your “new readership”
2/11/2024 2:48 am
Bowing my head in respect before Theresa…
Should penalties for convicted rapists be increased? I mean, if that guy did a day less than five years of prison time, it was not enough.
2/11/2024 2:49 am
Teresa, first of all, thank you very much for sharing your experience and your thoughts. It means a great deal.
SE: so now you’re saying that if the man doesn’t stop when the woman tells him to stop, it should be considered every bit as violent as hitting her, choking her and overpowering her while she struggles? That’s ludicrous. The law allows gradations of any crime. Purse-snatching is not the same as armed robbery. (Incidentally, the notion that being “pressured into sex” should be treated as analogous to rape is a bit like arguing that guilt-tripping a friend or relative into giving you a “loan” that you both know will never be repaid is exactly the same as making someone give you money by force or threats. I think this notion is deeply insulting to actual rape victims.)
As for why it makes no sense for Sulkowicz to want to talk to Nungesser after the alleged rape if it happened as she has described it: because as described by her, his actions would make him psychotic. Would you want to confront a violent psychotic in person to ask “Why did you brutally attack me for no reason?”
Also, your assumption that Sulkowicz and Nungesser had no communications all summr before August is incorrect. I have records of their chats in June and July.
2/11/2024 8:13 am
I read all these comments and have a few thoughts.
The problem I have with a lot of these cases goes to the story-telling concept of suspension of disbelief. In many of these cases, the story given is extreme enough, and the details not convincing enough to maintain that suspension of disbelief. I can believe a Stephen King story about vampires. I can’t buy some of the details of these narratives.
When you have rules in society, in order for them to be accepted, they need to match what people in that society think is fair and reasonable. Part of that is a common belief in what is real.
I don’t know if Emma was raped, or if she was raped in the way she claims. I’m more interested here in the discussion about the accusation, and what people are claiming to believe about how women react to rape.
I do know that, as a woman, it makes absolutely no sense to me that someone beaten, badly choked, and violently raped would not know if they were raped or not. Maybe if you’re a dude you can buy “someone had to tell me I was raped” with that set of circumstances, but as a woman, sorry, I can’t buy that narrative. Disbelief not suspended.
I understand trauma. I also understand reality. When you have been punched, choked, and forcibly raped, you do know it happened, unless you were unconscious during the event.
Second, actually, yes, for most circumstances, you are more likely to be able to get action if you go to the police immediately. Most people, including me, do not “get” this insistence that victims not go to the police and not be expected to go to the police. Getting rape cases prosecuted is something activists should be actively encouraging. Instead, they seem to be doing exactly the opposite, which to me is a tremendously destructive thing.
When you wait a long time to raise an accusation of rape, you greatly reduce the odds that you will be believed, and you greatly reduce the odds that anyone can do anything about it. Women may not be obliged to go instantly to the police - true. But for heavens sake, it is a reasonable expectation of behavior and skepticism when one delays reporting is a reasonable response.
As far as asking for the corroborating evidence, that isn’t weird. You can’t just say there is corroborating evidence - you do actually have to produce it.
I am not, at all, impressed by the suggestion that, when observed behavior seems to undermine a narrative, that the best way to analyze it is to consult with an “expert” to explain why illogical behavior is really logical, especially when many of the experts appear to have a fairly strong ideological bias.
Women are not some exotic species that requires a naturalist to explain to ourselves. We do have some idea of what is reasonable behavior in another woman and what is not, and we are probably quicker to call “bogus” on explanations that don’t ring true. I understand that victims of trauma can respond in different ways, and people shade their stories to leave out parts that are embarrassing or reflect badly on them - but some behaviors do raise questions.
Having had friends who are afraid of former significant others, yes, actually, they usually are careful about getting together with that person, and they usually work out a way to feel safe, often involving meeting in public, careful plans of what could happen, and the clear realization that person is potentially dangerous. For heaven’s sake, women are not stupid - how can you possibly buy that someone who had been physically attacked would not realize that the person who attacked them was capable of attacking them?
I actually do think that all cases of violent assault - not just rape, but plain old assault, battery, murder, etc - should be handled by the judicial system, not by the campus disciplinary process. In particular, campus adjudications raise huge issues of fairness and due process, and a lack of ability to meaningfully punish the guilty, that, to me, are not an acceptable shortcut to get a desired outcome.
I will also comment that I’m extremely uncomfortable with someone who says they have served on a dozen sex assault panels saying, of a rape accusation, “I think it’s more likely than not — because why would someone invent this overnight?” The reason I am uncomfortable with this is that it indicates a belief that an accusation, by itself, immediately constitutes preponderance of the evidence. That’s alarming to any concept of due process.
Also, for the legal folks here, a question about libel, discussed much earlier. I’m not a lawyer. Wouldn’t an accusation of rape be considered libel per se, and thus the person making the claim would have to prove it was true, rather than the burden being on the accused rapist?
2/11/2024 8:55 am
OW UVA Alumna:
“I will also comment that I’m extremely uncomfortable with someone who says they have served on a dozen sex assault panels saying, of a rape accusation, “I think it’s more likely than not — because why would someone invent this overnight?””
Yes, agree. I will also note, SE, that you seem to embrace the (IMO correct) notion that reactions to trauma can vary wildly from person to person, yet don’t seem to grasp the mostly analagous notion that people lie for many and wildly different reasons. I can see a handful of logical reasons (reasons that make common sense to me, though I do not condone them obviously) for Emma to lie about this, and there are many other reasons that would not seem logical to me but are reasons, or non-reasons, people lie nonetheless. Yet you dismiss it all with the same premise you reject in others who are looking at Emma’s post-trauma reactions — namely that it doesn’t make sense to you why someone would act that way, because this is not a “normal” reaction.
2/11/2024 9:03 am
I think everybody’s barking up the wrong tree when they look at Mattress Girl’s actions in terms of slander and defamation. What it is is academic fraud.
Think about it: It’s an attempt at performance art, for which apparently she’s receiving a grade and university credit. As an artist, she’s basing her performance on an event that she claims actually occurred, but in fact probably did not (or at least, not the key element of that event, ie., the rape). In the literary world, this would be the equivalent of passing off fiction as nonfiction. Does anyone remember “A Thousand Little Pieces”?
While we’ll never know the truth of what happened that night, if Mattress Girl’s account turns out to be a lie, then whoever is grading her for that work should seriously consider making her repeat the semester.
2/11/2024 9:04 am
BTW, previous comment (Anonymous 9:03am) is mine.
2/11/2024 9:04 am
Saying that a rape accusation is likely true because why would someone make one up is really no different an the question on any jury form that asks whether you think that an arrest provides a reasonable presumption of guilt because otherwise why would the police have performed the arrest. PS: anyone who answers that question affirmatively is immediately excused from jury duty.
2/11/2024 9:29 am
You are right, Ms. young, there are gradations of sexual assault. Almost all of them warrant expulsion. And almost all of them should appropriately be brought to the police, as Teresa admirably did.
I didn’t say all assaults are equally violent, but I did say I am suspicious of those who think it’s important evaluate Oh, just how violent WAS it? Because even if there was no consent and even if there was a threat of force that was clear at the time, maybe we can find SOMEthing to suggest that the woman invited it and therefore partially exonerate the man. I am suspicious of people who place that emphasis in part because they are part of a deplorable history on this issue.
As to the term “violence” — and here I don’t expect anyone to agree with me — I think it applies not only to implicit threats of force (a very short step from the withdrawn consent situation you describe) but other situations as well. Consider:
Drunk girl kisses a boy on her couch and they make out. While he is kissing her chest and removing her pants she passes out. He knows she is passed out has intercourse with her. Assault? Yes. Violent? I say yes.
Boy tells girl, If you don’t have sex with me I will tell your parents and sister about your abortion.
Manic-depressive boy tells girl, I have been off my meds for a month. I love you. If you don’t have sex with me I will go back across the hall and jump out my window.
Boy tells girl, You just told me not to penetrate you even though you clearly want sex. I am on top. You want me to stop, then make me.
All of these things are assertions of power. I say all of them are assault — unwanted sexual contact. We can disagree about whether the word “violent” applies, which is why I believe the key inquiry is not violence but consent.
(Did Sulkowicz wonder, subconsciously or consciously: did I implicitly give consent for the slap, which turned him on? Did I implicitly give
consent for the choking, which turned him on? What happened there? Why am I so ashamed when he had all the power? This is a possible script for what she calls “being in denial.”)
Again, I am not an expert in these things. And a clearer story from him about how anal sex came onto the table might trigger more empathy from me to the extent it was internally consistent and credible. But right now I have only heard one coherent story that enables me to put myself in the person’s shoes. More in-depth reporting (despite how goshdarn hard it is to get a hold of the disciplinary records) could make Nungesser’s story more convincing.
I don’t mean to dodge the question above, about what would make me more skeptical of Sulkowicz. There are many such things. If she was revealed to have just made up the fresh complaint witness, that would be a huge blow to her credibility. If she turned out to be very keen on rape activism as an attractive line of work, in advance, that would be another. But failure to *show* sufficient fear of a friend after the fact is not discrediting to me in the slightest. In fact, requiring a rape victim to show fear after the fact is very close to the old tradition of requiring her to show evidence of a struggle during the rape itself.
We have a bad, bad history on this issue. (A few people above have raised the specter of lynching, and said that back then too people said, Why would she lie? The answer is that she was ashamed of having been caught having or seeking sex with a black man.). Unless someone can explain the motives for the woman to lie, I need to hear a clear and coherent story from the man before I consider the scales of evidence balanced.
2/11/2024 9:36 am
Emma may be telling the truth, but her case by any standard that includes due process, is weak. A true advocate of her position would acknowledge this reality imo-(“I believe you but it is going to be difficult to ‘convict’ without more evidence”)
If the “day-after friend,” Josie, Natalie, and Adam are considered to be supporting witnesses in the E v. P dispute, a close examination of their accounts might reveal that they are actually harmful to E’s case. From what I have read in both the Young and Jezebel reports, my skepticism about the believability of “the serial rapist” angle in the narrative has grown considerably.
2/11/2024 9:37 am
Everyone who says I’m jumping to conclusions needs to keep in mind that there is no way I would ever take action on the really very thin and underdeveloped factual record we have here. Whether as a juror or as a disciplinary-body member, I would insist on a FULL investigation of all claims and all conduct by both sides.
Please note that the police analogy is quite different. The police have a motive to arrest someone and they are NOT FIRSTHAND WITNESSES. The correct analogy is a witness on the stand identifying the defendant as the one who harmed her. But of COURSE that person could be lying, for any number of reasons. Desire to become an activist is not a plausible one in most cases, but that’s the only one anyone has offered about Sulkowicz. (Except that she was in love with him, which is based on no evidence — hell, a week prior she wasn’t even willing to help him move.)
2/11/2024 9:41 am
SE:
So you are in effect saying that the burden of proof doesn’t really apply in rape cases? An accusation of rape by a woman by itself is evidence sufficient for conviction unless the man can credibly rebut it?
I’m not a lawyer either. But my understanding is that the burden of proof is on the accuser. A defendant doesn’t have to put up a defense. Depending on the strength of a case against him, it may be very much to his advantage, but he’s not required to do so. A jury could in such a case say, “there’s not enough evidence for us to convict this man.”
2/11/2024 9:57 am
Of course you are right about the criminal-justice system, which locks up people found guilty. But the beyond-a-reasonable-doubt standard does not and should not apply in campus disciplinary proceedings. I have argued why that is in other places, although I am open to the argument that there should be an intermediate standard above preponderance of the evidence (and I am not wild about the federal government imposing a standard on deans).
Even though the criminal standards and procedures are IRRELEVANT, it is worth noting that there is a third-degree felony in play even if there is no violence. The Model Penal Code defines “gross sexual imposition” as follows: ”
2. Gross Sexual Imposition. A male who has sexual intercourse with a female not his wife commits a felony of the third degree if:
(a) he compels her to submit by any threat that would prevent resistance by a woman of ordinary resolution.”
2/11/2024 10:35 am
Regardless of whether we are talking about a reasonable doubt or a preponderance of evidence standard, or about a criminal case or a campus hearing, E’s case is weak imo (and also apparently in the opinion of Columbia’s formal tribunal). Consideration of “the day after friend” (who may not even exist), Josie, Natalie, and Adam may actually detract from the “serial rapist” part of the narrative-a narrative which some seem invested in advancing without a “FULL investigation of all claims.” The “serial rapist” label is extremely damaging and I think unfair at this point to Paul. He should be able to mount any kind of defense he chooses to such a damning and unsubstantiated accusation. He has accused no one of anything; he’s trying to his name and reputation.
Columbia has already done one investigation which resulted in a “not responsible” finding. Would we expect a different outcome if the “fresh complaint witnesses” were considered? I doubt it, SE’s experience and empathy notwithstanding.
2/11/2024 10:44 am
“E’s case [to have disciplinary action actually taken] is weak imo (and also apparently in the opinion of Columbia’s formal tribunal).”
I agree. But I don’t think it’s weak because of the FB chats, I think it’s weak because no surrounding facts have been presented to make it a full-fledged case that one can consider. (I’ve said repeatedly that I think it’s very possible the tribunal considered facts we don’t have and came to a reasonable decision.)
But I believe her story at this point, in part because PN’s story has not been told in enough detail to be credible.
2/11/2024 10:50 am
maybe we can find SOMEthing to suggest that the woman invited it and therefore partially exonerate the man. I am suspicious of people who place that emphasis in part because they are part of a deplorable history on this issue.
Reasonable people are suspicious of those who routinely misstate the weight of evidence, and always in the same direction.
Some examples:
I find Sulkowicz’s annotation of the FB messages to make perfect sense.
Not just less confusing than others find them, but “perfect”.
Notably his failure to actually talk with her, and rapid disappearance from their prior close friendship, strongly suggests that he knew he did something wrong to her.
Now we’re reaching for the worst possible interpretation, supported by essentially nothing.
the truth is that she and a friend discussed the incident the NEXT DAY and determined that it should be considered rape
Instinctive acceptance of supportive evidence even when based on nothing.
Women are under no obligation to instantly go to the police in order to have their allegations taken seriously.
“Interpreting” comments as more extreme than they are. No one claimed this was a “obligation” or requirement to be “taken seriously”. Only that time makes the investigation more difficult and so anyone desiring to make a case should make their complaint as soon as possible.
You are just wrong and you are throwing red meat to your ideologically activated new readership.
Impugning motives.
But it is intolerable for that critique to quickly start shading into insinuations that no accusation can stand up unless it is instantaneous and unless the victim is immaculate in every aspect of her relationship with the accuser.
Another complete misstatement of the opposition.
Nobody wants those things [fame, access to activist circles].
A ludicrous statement since some people clearly do work hard for exactly these things, including inventing stories to gain them.
Nothing else she has said is in any way incongruous with anything else she has said.
An extreme opinion treated as fact.
A competent investigation by Columbia would have spoken with her (and probably did so).
Assertion without basis in evidence. This person’s existence was only recently alleged even though fairly descriptive (and friendly) depictions of the evidence have been available for a long period.
they had been close friends for a year. Why would he stop wanting to be friends?
A misinterpretation to avoid admitting the possibility, the reference is clearly to a committed relationship rather than friends (with benefits or not).
You know what gives Sulkowicz more credibility for me than anything else (subject to the possibility that something comes out to contradict her, of course)? She acknowledges that it was “irrational” of her to want to talk to him about the rape.
This is presuming the desired conclusion. Evidence is evidence, and a lack of evidence? It’s evidence too!
A couple of people have said he punched her, when I think she said “hit” and to some extent choked.
Hit and punch are that different? Grasping at straws. Choking was clearly alleged, so he’s misinterpreting to minimize the discrepancies between her statements.
the school — and its professors! — could consider hiring strippers for a team event (albeit an unofficial one) to be in itself a disciplinary violation of a medium-high order.
Sure, the school that pays for porn stars to demonstrate sex toys to the students is outraged by strippers. Let’s pretend we should expel them. Next they’ll claim underage drinking is a big deal.
The avoidance is all in September and October and is quite clearly indicated in Ms Sulkowicz’s annotations as the key theme of her experience of the Facebook contacts: she wanted to find a time to talk to him one-on-one but he wasn’t very cooperative and she couldn’t / didn’t make it happen.
In fact both parties at times initiated contact. SE claims her initiation means something important while ignoring that Paul’s initiations contradict his conclusion.
I take her [ES] at her word
This pretty much sums it up. Everyone else is trying to find the truth while SE is trying to discover the best path to support ES no matter how implausible it is.
I’ll stop even though there are many more examples. I just can’t stand when unreasonable people lecture others. Especially disappointing is his insulting the author who graciously offered to discuss the matter even with someone as clearly dishonest as SE.
2/11/2024 11:07 am
“But I don’t think it is weak because of the FB chats….”
Neither did Columbia’s tribunal (!)…which determined the FB evidence inadmissible for its hearing. In fact, PN complained about this, according to CY. He was found “not responsible” anyway. We can assume that the tribunal found the case to be weak for other reasons. We don’t know the actual reasoning because of confidentiality restrictions.
“PN’s story has not been told in enough detail to be believable.”
Who should carry the greater burden? The accused? Or the accuser?
In the meantime, the accused is publicly branded a “serial rapist.” Doesn’t this seem to be at least a little bit unfair?
2/11/2024 12:04 pm
I’ve been very free to weigh in on this thread without giving my opinion of what actually happened, and it’s been suggested in an oblique fashion that I do so, or at least make my points more robust, so here goes…
I usually don’t have an opinion in cases like this because it’s very hard to decide who is right based on the filtered and incomplete information we get through the media, and which I don’t mean as a criticism… it’s in the nature of the beast. If I do form an opinion, I’m more likely to form it based on how I perceive the overall fairness of the process rather than from the actual ‘facts’ as we are told them via supposedly dispassionate and unbiased third parties, although I recognize that the very nature of the system requires that to be fair to one party may require it to be ‘less’ fair to the other party, and which sucks, to put it mildly. I also don’t have a built-in bias (that all men are guilty or that all accusations are false).
Perhaps much of the to- and fro-ing here is the result of two things — the system (the process) and language-related issues, with, as in this case, although not always, the two being inter-related. Before giving my opinion, I’ll try and explain exactly what I mean by all of this.
First, the system/process:
Under our system of justice, everyone is presumed innocent until proven not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in court, and everyone is entitled to legal representation to try and establish that they are not guilty. It’s worth looking at these two things separately in greater detail.
It’s important to realize that, for better or worse, the finding of ‘proven not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt’ is not the same thing as being found to be innocent. People form their own opinions independently of whatever the legal system decides, often coming to the opposite conclusion than the legal system did, and the terminology, quite apart from the utter vagueness and variable-ness of ‘reasonable’ as any definable sort of standard only encourages this. Someone who is acquitted is kind of innocent, sort of innocent, but not really innocent — the government just couldn’t convince people of their guilt. People who are charged but not found culpable can’t be formally discriminated against because of the charges, but there is still a stigma that has deeply negative residual effects, and that prohibited discrimination almost certainly occurs but is disguised or otherwise hidden.
‘Non non-attorneys’ don’t have to or even necessarily believe that their clients are in fact innocent - they are simply hired guns providing help to the client. Again, to make sure it’s clear, ‘non non-attorneys’ have as there responsibility to defend their client, not to ensure that justice ensues. So it’s entirely fair to say that in many cases, the ‘non non-attorneys’ are pretending, as they make their case on behalf of their clients, that their clients are innocent, and given that they have the legal obligation to represent their client to the best of their ability, it’s no surprise and even reasonable to expect that they would stretch the truth to the very edge of the definition of true and possibly beyond in order to do so. As they say about capitalism, it’s a terrible system, but it’s better than any other one.
This state of affairs brings up an interesting parallel. Streetwalkers, a common euphemism for a certain type of whore (and which is itself a coarse euphemism for a prostitute), also pretend something about their clients, which is that they love them, at least until the money runs out, and which, when you think about it, is equally true of the relationship between ‘non non-attorneys’ and their clients. It doesn’t help that money corrupts the system (as it does in most areas of life) — witness the ‘non non-attorneys’ in the class action suit on behalf of cabin crews suing over second-hand cabin smoke… they walked away with the better part of a half-billion dollars in legal fees while the cabin crews, who as an employment benefit/perk were able to fly anywhere in the world for pennies on the dollar, got… travel vouchers for reduced airplane tickets for themselves!
On to the language part of it…
The language issue causes different people to view the same things differently, sometimes innocently and sometimes by design; in the case of ‘by design’ it can be entirely benign or utterly mendacious.
Before getting into the peculiarities of English, it’s important to realize that language that is entirely grammatically and semantically correct can be totally devoid of useful information. As for English, it is a notoriously loose and forgiving (at the expense of miscommunication) language, with, among other things, it having fewer tenses than other languages; it being much more gender neutral than are other languages; its exceptions to exceptions; and it having various permutations of words that are spelt the same while having different meaning and/or tenses and pronunciations along with words that have different spellings and meanings but similar pronunciations (red, read, to, two, too, there, their, they’re to name a few). To all of this we add various literary and language devices — abbreviations, analogies, synonyms, antonyms, nicknames and nom de plumes, common expressions used as a form of shorthand, etc…. it’s a wonder we understand each other to the degree that we do. Let’s look at a couple of examples of how this can ‘muck things up.’
An example of language with zero nutritional value is a statement of say, twenty-five years of experience. That may be an ‘honest’ statement in the sense that we commonly take it, but it is often true that the person really has only one year’s experience twenty-five times. A statement like “eighteen months removed from the bar exam and I was not methodical enough” has plenty of useful information implied in spite of its brevity, although not complete information… it’s probably true that the result of whoever made the statement is a ‘non non-attorney,’ although not necessarily, because short of corroborating statements, we don’t know whether or not they passed, and even if they didn’t, they might be some sort of para-legal where no bar accreditation is necessary; in any case it doesn’t tell us if the person passed on the first try and with what sort of grade or if they took it multiple times before finally passing, with former Democratic Governor Deval Patrick of Massachusetts being a classic example; in a case such as just given, simply saying he passed also tells us nothing about whether there was any sort of social promotion/affirmative action involved.
Abbreviations have the both the advantage and disadvantage of being able to refer to different things, which is somewhat obvious.
Nicknames and nom de plumes are often abbreviated, thereby making the abbreviation twice removed from the actual individual they are meant to reference and thus lending themselves to the possibility of error.
Common ‘shorthand’ expressions often are oxymoronic – they make no sense but they make perfect sense at the same time. In addition, they are often context dependent, and often, although not necessarily, have a totally different meaning when not used as a shortcut… ‘They have no balls’ (if you pardon the expression) has an entirely innocent sports meaning and a not so innocent shorthand meaning, and under a certain peculiar set of circumstances the expression might be intentionally used in both ways at the same time.
Synonyms are different words that have essentially the same core meaning, often with semantic differences at the margins. Examples include ‘imprecise’ and ‘inaccurate,’ and ‘silly’ and ‘idiotic,’ with idiotic arguably being more pejorative and being an example of the semantic difference at the margin. To continue using the risque example above, we might go a bit further and refer to a coward as a eunuch to convey that, figuratively speaking, someone has no balls — a coward.
So, to put it all together, we could use the abbreviation for a nickname or nom de plume ‘SE’ to refer to a ‘Silly Eunuch.’ And to put the system/process and language parts together, we would have an idiot with no balls who is a whore. Oops, I better not go there… the PC police will have me for seemingly daring to question the mortality of someone’s actions and their virtue. Under the ‘relative moral-ism’ currently in vogue in the liberal arts, that is as big a no no as there is.
Or ‘SE’ might refer to something entirely different. Do you see what I mean by all of this?
But in terms of the he said/she said story here, my only opinion is that I hope justice truly is served.
2/11/2024 12:05 pm
SE:
Manic-depressive boy tells girl, I have been off my meds for a month. I love you. If you don’t have sex with me I will go back across the hall and jump out my window.
[….]
All of these things are assertions of power. I say all of them are assault — unwanted sexual contact.
I can think of half a dozen women that I have known or have head about who are guilty of this species of “sexual assault.” The fact is, men and women play all kinds of games and all kinds of head games in order to get sex, affection, attention, marriage, kids, and so on. When you make big moral pronouncements like this it makes it sound like you don’t have much real world experience.
As for “gross sexual imposition”, the law as stated implies that married men can threaten their wives to have sex? What is that supposed to mean? Also the language of the statute is clearly sexist.
The legal definition of force in a sexual assault / rape is completely relevant because you are arguing — for some reason — that a more lax standard should apply to college campuses. Why, exactly? Is it that the punishment is not imprisonment? Is this an argument that the burden of proof shifts from the accused to the accuser based on the seriousness of the punishment?
If that were true, then why not charge every college student a $50 fine for fornication on a weekly basis on a zero evidentiary standard, because, after all, no one is going to prison, and the punishment is after all relatively minor.
But expulsion from (usually pretty expensive) colleges is not a minor matter, and can ruin a person’s career prospects, all the more reason to use a higher evidentiary standard. For every ES out there who has high powered tuition paying parents, there are PN’s who also have high powered tuition paying parents who can also hire lawyers and sue the colleges in question. Which, as we both know, is ongoing.
2/11/2024 12:10 pm
“Under our system of justice, everyone is presumed innocent until proven not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in court, and everyone is entitled to legal representation to try and establish that they are not guilty.”
Not true in campus disciplinary proceedings. Sorry.
“you are arguing — for some reason — that a more lax standard should apply to college campuses. Why, exactly? Is it that the punishment is not imprisonment?”
Yes. Also, that the goal of the proceedings is not to prevent and deter violence but to maintain a healthy school community that fosters respect for everyone.
2/11/2024 12:15 pm
If columbia and nypd found the guy innocent it is end of story. Those institutions aren’t the same as, for instance, the ridiculous (in)justice system in Italy that keeps convicting Amanda Knox for no reason other than a system protecting itself from facts (innocents be damned!).
Disappointing re: Senator G. Unsure why such a smart politician is lining up behind dubious cases unless the senator is aiming to lock up the women and father/dad vote. Otherwise seems like bad judgment - i assume it is in earnest, but disappointing nonetheless.
2/11/2024 12:15 pm
ACLU, I agree with you — especially in reminding us that Columbia did what was presumably a full investigation and took no action. And I agree that the “serial rapist” tag is unfair given what we know.
In campus proceedings, the accuser bears a slightly greater burden of proof than the accused. That burden is increased greatly as one learns the accuser has a clear reason to lie.
2/11/2024 12:24 pm
What I find socking about this story is that someone can actually major in performance art.
2/11/2024 12:27 pm
Yes. Also, that the goal of the proceedings is not to prevent and deter violence but to maintain a healthy school community that fosters respect for everyone.
How can that be true, when ES’ senior thesis is clearly designed to foster hatred and contempt of PN, as well as his specific expulsion? I also happen to know from real world contacts at the institution in question that nothing in these proceedings, and including the sexual assault campaign that began a few years ago and of which ES’ senior thesis is the most talked about example, have done anything to “foster respect”, not only with regard to PN, but also ES, and even the institution itself.
How “healthy” can it possibly be, in a communitarian sense, to allow a student to basically major in trying to get another student expelled?
Does it mean she only gets a “B” if he isn’t expelled? An A+ if he is?
Let’s always keep in mind that both CU and NYPD did not pursue this allegation, and neither can be accused of bias (see the highly relevant Oliver Jovanovic case). So all we are talking about is the reason why colleges should use lower standards, and whether that is sufficient reason to adopt such lower standards.
2/11/2024 12:39 pm
SE -
Thank you again for proving my point that you deliberately and dishonestly twist things.
Incidentally, you have also proven my point about some people being imbeciles and being cowards.
It didn’t escape my attention that you didn’t reply to one of my previous posts directly, and that you didn’t answer my yes/no challenge directly, but elided it in your typical scum fashion.
And here you are deliberately conflating ‘campus disciplinary proceedings’ with ‘under our system of justice,’ and I already know your excuse… that I wasn’t precise enough, although I’m sure it was clear to pretty much everyone else. Why don’t we ask people to chime in if it was clear to them? If the majority says it wasn’t, I’ll apologize.
One thing I could have done better in my post was to include a reference to ‘fucking.’
So thank you again for volunteering to step up and play the part of the ‘fucking idiotic whore with no balls.”
P.S. That deserves an award for richness… that you are for the notion of respect.
2/11/2024 1:13 pm
SE, to explore the limit of your belief that trauma victims act in unexpected ways that can only be sorted out by experts, consider this hypothetical. Suppose the day after the alleged attack ES sent PN a message that said:
“Thank you so much for the awesome butt sex last night. I asked for it, and boy did you give it to me! I can’t wait to do it agaaaaaaaaaaaaain!”
Six months later, she tells substantially the same story she is telling today (ignoring how slippery she has been with the facts).
Would you still say that people are wrong to assume a message like that indicates that she was not attacked? Would it be wrong to assume, based on that message, that her current story of a violent rape is a lie, even if we can’t figure out why she would be lying about it now?
It seems to me that if you believe this hypothetical message would count as evidence that she wasn’t raped, then the disagreement with the actual FB messages is one of degree only, because it is at least hypothetically possible to disbelieve a purported rape victim based on her behavior immediately after the rape.
It also seems to me that if you don’t believe such a message disproves a rape allegation, nothing you have to say about this issue can be taken seriously.
2/11/2024 1:16 pm
Filmer -
I finally figured it out - SE in majoring in Performance Art, and this is his thesis…
2/11/2024 1:37 pm
Of course if PS had texted ES confessing to the rape, SE would be on here saying that this proves nothing, false confessions happen all the time, look at the Central Park 5. If you arn’t a scientist, you are completely unqualified to talk about how an accused person might react to a serious life destroying accusation…etc. Because SE seems so consistent and even-handed like that.
2/11/2024 1:52 pm
“if you believe this hypothetical message would count as evidence that she wasn’t raped, the disagreement with the actual FB messages is one of degree only.”
I think that is a fair characterization. There’s no doubt the FB exchanges tend to undermine Sulkowicz’s story — they just don’t outweigh it, especially when she explains what motivated them and the nature of her confusion in the immediate aftermath of the alleged assault.
I also think many of Marshal’s objections to my comments are appropriate opinions for him to have. I agree with none of them, but my words can certainly be cast in the light he chooses. The only exception is this one:
” ‘Women are under no obligation to instantly go to the police in order to have their allegations taken seriously.”
” “Interpreting” comments as more extreme than they are.”
Richard had written: “how could you possibly establish what happened when they are not reported until weeks, months, after they allegedly happened?” and “Whether she was assaulted by Paul Nungesser, we will likely never know—that’s what happens when you wait for months to make an accusation.”
I don’t think my characterization of those statements was unfair at all. They were categorical statements about the nonviability of delayed rape accusations. It’s not clear to me that Richard even stands by them.
SPMoore, you raise an interesting question about whether Sulkowicz’s project should be itself actionable under disciplinary rules. Richard raised this before. I think the faculty should have required her not to identify the accused individual in any public way. Not sure what the ground rules were or whether she broke them.
2/11/2024 1:59 pm
Although I understand why people are saying I think experts are actually REQUIRED to sort out individual reactions after nonconsensual contact, that’s not what I think. I do think Ms. Young has not done a good job of it, and that speaking with an expert would help compensate for her inattention to detail and her tendency to base her entire approach on her *intuition* about how people to react to rape (explicitly saying “This is how *I* would react; any other reaction is not plausible”).
I don’t think a more balanced approach from Ms. Young would end up suggesting Nungesser is guilty. But it would take off the “Gotcha” tag from her journalism and make her more credible to readers like me.
(How many readers like me exist, I don’t know; but I don’t accept that my approach to evidence is bizarre or outside the mainstream. Everyone keeps saying it’s obvious that Sulkowicz only made up the rape charge in order to get famous, but I think that’s completely outlandish and ascribes a very strange brand of bad faith to a 19-year-old. Also it doesn’t fit with the fact that she pursued a confidential university process and only sought fame a year and a half later, after being disappointed with it.)
2/11/2024 2:31 pm
Everyone keeps saying it’s obvious that Sulkowicz only made up the rape charge in order to get famous,
That’s an inaccurate generalization, which you have done frequently here.
Nobody disputes that they had sex, nobody disputes that they had anal sex, no one disputes that she (in her own words) felt “disgusting” the next day. The question is whether she suffered sexual assault, and, if so, by what standard. This goes particularly to the claim of battery.
Frankly, I don’t know, and it’s not a big issue because PN is not facing any sanctions at this point. What is an issue is the underlying veracity of her story, especially insofar as she has put herself front and center on the public stage with this issue for at least a year now.
You have a habit of arguing that either ES is “telling the truth” and anyone who disputes elements of her account is accusing her of “lying.” I don’t think that’s constructive. I don’t think her account is accurate, and I think she felt violated by the experience, but I don’t think she was sexually assaulted, based on the information I have received so far.
Things like the non-report of the incident for several months, the lack of corroborating evidence (including the newly alleged FCW), the fact that, while ES’ claim may not be hyperbolic, the other two women she chose to file her complaint with were and are extremely hyperbolic in their language, the refusal to follow through with the NYPD, and now the FB messages all tend to counterweigh her testimony. In addition, the fact that her testimony, for the last year or so, has been part of her senior thesis, also doesn’t work in her favor.
In sum, I don’t think most people really claim to know exactly what happened. Most of the comments here have been responses to your arguments that you are pretty sure that it happened just as she said, and that the FB messages do nothing to undercut her narrative.
The other neglected point of the original articles however was ES’ “outrage” over having her “personal life” invaded, this from a person who has spent the better part of two years trying to get a fellow student expelled, and has provided endless interviews and photo ops detaling the most intimate details of both hers and his private lives. I would say he is completely entitled to rebut her.
Also: Technically, I don’t think ES has publicly outed her assailant. But everyone on campus knows who is being accused. That’s because he mattress thing grew out of a previous campaign in which some women on campus were identifying male students as rapists in graffiti around the school.
2/11/2024 2:34 pm
” ‘Nothing else she has said [besides the FB posts] is in any way incongruous with anything else she has said.’
“An extreme opinion treated as fact.”
Besides the Facebook chats, where else has Sulkowicz made her own story inconsistent or been undermined by evidence? (Again, if she actually ruled out the existence of the next-day conversation at some point, that would be a very damaging revelation.)
I want facts!
2/11/2024 2:40 pm
Ah! SPMoore has provided facts.
The non-report of the incident for several months. — A lack, not an inconsistency. And a delay like this is very common on campus for alleged rapes on campus. She proffers an explanation in her original account that she was ashamed and trying to put it behind her. That is credible.
The lack of corroborating evidence (including the newly alleged FCW).
A lack of evidence is not an inconsistency. Lacking evidence is common. If there is an FCW that is STRONG corroborating evidence; of course if the FCW is invented that is highly highly discrediting.
The fact that, while ES’ claim may not be hyperbolic, the other two women she chose to file her complaint with were and are extremely hyperbolic in their language.
-Didn’t know about this but it is not Sulkowicz’s doing.
The refusal to follow through with the NYPD.
— You don’t think an assistant prosecutor, or anyone knowledgeable, might have told her that without better evidence she could never get a conviction?
In addition, the fact that her testimony, for the last year or so, has been part of her senior thesis, also doesn’t work in her favor.
— I disagree fully with this. It’s ex post facto thinking. It’s almost like people are saying it’s a highly suspicious coincidence that this *rape activist* claims to have been *raped.* Like, What are the odds that Lou Gehrig would get Lou Gehrig’s Disease? She is an activist BECAUSE she (believes she was) raped and believes that the case was badly handled.
2/11/2024 2:46 pm
SE: ” I do think Ms. Young has not done a good job of it, and that speaking with an expert would help compensate for her inattention to detail and her tendency to base her entire approach on her *intuition* about how people to react to rape.”
The irony in this statement and corresponding lack of self-awareness is astounding. Granted, Ms. Young’s reach is wider, but a more limited audience here doesn’t obviate the need for care and intellectual honesty.
SE: “How many readers like me exist, I don’t know; but I don’t accept that my approach to evidence is bizarre or outside the mainstream.”
It’s not. It is exceedingly common for people to form an opinion and then interpret and accept/reject facts to comport with that pre-existing conclusion.
SE: “I have not expressed an opinion about whether Sulkowicz was raped.
I think it’s more likely than not — because why would someone invent this overnight? — but I am not privy to what the Columbia disciplinary body saw, read, and heard.”
(a day later…)
SE: “But I believe her story at this point, in part because PN’s story has not been told in enough detail to be credible.”
It actually has. There is just no detail in Paul’s story other than video of the event (and maybe not even then) that would move you from your opinion. I also posit that the level of detail or not in Emma’s story is not what is moving you, it is the fact that she made the accusation, period, because why would she make it up after all.
Marshal had it right above. He called it dishonest, I’ll go with the synonym disengenuous and intellectually dishonest. I am open to the possibility that SE made up her mind last night, but it appears more likely that she was posing as open-minded to give herself more credibility. Likewise for the pose of appearing to be open to further evidence, when in practice she discounts everything that supports Paul’s version and inflates everything that support Emma’s.
This is really too bad, because this type of forum really benefits from a dissenting voice. It doesn’t reach everyone, but it does get some to perhaps look at something from a different angle, or in a different light. When that position is so badly skewed from bias and intellectual dishonesty it will actually serve to push some people the other way, and not lead to a productive debate.
2/11/2024 2:48 pm
I want facts!
Why is she continually calling PN a “serial rapist” when even you don’t consider that a fair and accurate description?
Why didn’t she follow through with the NYPD? We know from the Jovanovic case that the NYPD is more than willing to do so (false rape conviction pursued by DA Fairstein, same DA who presided over the false rape conviction of the Central Park Jogger. Thank heavens both eventually overturned.)
Why didn’t her continued contact with PN, including such things as “I love you!” on 10/6, form part of her narrative from the beginning?
Why wasn’t the FCW who she now alleged explained to her that she was raped even mentioned until last week?
Why would a rape victim need to have it explained to them that they were raped?
Granting the general thesis that nothing rape victims do is accountable, let’s try it this way: Why would a victim of a deadly physical assault featuring punching and choking need to consult with someone to know that they had been punched and choked?
These facts promote skepticism.
2/11/2024 2:57 pm
SE -
She is an activist BECAUSE she (believes she was) raped and believes that the case was badly handled.
Just a head’s up: things like this have been brewing at Columbia for a few years now. ES’ performance art thesis grows out of this. I don’t have all the data at my fingertips but I was informed on it while it was going on. Worth taking a look at it, for those who are truly interested in the case.
As for the Senior Thesis angle: I doubt she would be toting this mattress around and calling PN a “serial rapist” at every opportunity if she wasn’t getting academic credit for her “performance.” So, yes, regardless of what happened on that August night in 2012, I think the self-interest and self-aggrandizement is crystal clear. Of course, she also feels (and I am sure her feelings are sincere) that she is “doing something” about sexual assault awareness. And actually I think that’s a laudable thing. I do however disapprove in piling on to this exonerated guy and claiming that she will carry her mattress around until he is expelled. That is gratuitous, and threatening.
2/11/2024 3:04 pm
SE, Cathy Young provided links to two other Sulkowicz interviews that contradict what she said to Jezebel.
Google “Frustrated by Columbia’s inaction, student reports sexual assault to police” from Columbia Spectator on 5-16-2014 and you will see her say, “When it first happened, I didn’t want to talk to anyone. I didn’t even tell my parents. … I didn’t even want to talk to my best friend.”
Google “A Survivor’s Burden: Columbia Student Carries Mattress on Campus Until Alleged Rapist is Expelled” from 9-16-2014 on some site I’ve never heard of, and you will see a transcript where she says, “Immediately afterwards? Well, at first, I didn’t even tell my parents. It was very—I was very ashamed, I felt disgusting, and I didn’t want to talk about it at all. But after I met other women that my rapist had attacked, as well, I realized that if I didn’t—if I didn’t do something, he would continue to rape other students on our campus. So, that’s when I decided to report it to the school.”
Then, when confronted with her FB posts, she suddenly finds herself willing to talk about an unnamed friend who had to explain the basics of rape to her less than 24 hours after the attack.
That enough facts for ya?
2/11/2024 3:10 pm
Skeptical: Well done.
“Your honor, I move for a mistrial in the First Kangaroo Court of Public Opinion.”
“So granted!” BAM
2/11/2024 3:18 pm
When President Obama lost Chuck Hagel as his 3rd defense secretary, people who almost defend Mr. Obama said that it was perhaps a clue that the problem was him and not them (the defense secretaries).
Similarly, when almost everyone here is uniformly lined up against one individual here (and throw out my vote as tainted), perhaps it’s time for that same individual to consider that that it may not be ‘them’… it may be him.
It’ not always the case, but it’s worth examining…
2/11/2024 3:20 pm
It’s true that my position hasn’t budged much. No one has given me a coherent account to challenge Sulkowicz’s credibility when she says she made her nonconsent to the anal sex clear.
SPMoore, your questions are perfectly good ones and they are the same ones Sulkowicz has been putting out there for at least six months:
You ask,
“Why would a victim of a deadly physical assault featuring punching and choking need to consult with someone to know that they had been punched and choked?”
Let’s just edit that slightly to match the actual allegation:
“Why would a victim of sexual assault featuring being hit in the face and choking need to consult with someone to know that they had been hit and choked?”
and
“Why would a rape victim need to have it explained to them that they were raped?”
Sulkowicz says (easily Googled interview):
“My attacker was one of my closest friends at the time….
I spent months in denial. I wasn’t really ready to believe that I’d been raped because realizing that you’ve been raped is realizing that people can take control of you and objectify you. In that moment, I wasn’t a human to him. I was just a thing. And that’s pretty fucking scary. Once I finally did admit to myself that it had happened, I was really unhappy. And I think a lot of what I’ve been dealing with since then is trying to find ways to believe that I am human. ”
“Why didn’t her continued contact with PN, including such things as “I love you!” on 10/6, form part of her narrative from the beginning?”
Because it is very embarrassing and she knows it. Why and how would she bring it up?
Sulkowicz has said from the beginning, “I spent months in denial.” The FB exchanges show what denial looks like.
“Why wasn’t the FCW who she now alleged explained to her that she was raped even mentioned until last week?”
There is no particular reason this person should have been brought up to the public. I am confident the witness was examined by Columbia, if there is one. If there isn’t then I am probably going to end up agreeing with you guys that she has lost her credibility. The quotes Skeptical just posted were brought up by May previously, and Sulkowicz should be confronted with them. It is worth noting that the statements can be reconciled, since it might have been a different friend than her best friend and parents are among the toughest people to tell such a thing.
As Richard has discerned, this is an important issue for a journalist to inquire further.
“Why didn’t she follow through with the NYPD?”
Because she would never get a conviction.
“Why is she continually calling PN a “serial rapist” when even you don’t consider that a fair and accurate description?”
I am not a rape activist. I think she is out of line when she says this, but then I haven’t heard the story from PN’s ex-girlfriend.
David, you’re misreading the sequence of my comments. My opinion didn’t change, I just didn’t express it directly until the last day or so. But the opinion is still avowedly based on inadequate information. A proper investigation would probe how well Nungesser can describe the hours after the assault, when he says he stayed over and she says he left.
2/11/2024 3:26 pm
RB -
Even though this is free, we’re certainly getting our money’s worth, so to speak, and so a big thank you.
Not only are we getting a pretty accurate picture of what actually went on and some pretty astute analysis from Cathy Young and a few others, we’re also getting a modern day version of Abbot & Costello’s ‘Whose on First?’ with SE playing both parts as a bonus, and in fairness to him, he’s doing a first-rate job of it.
I know you didn’t plan it that way, but congratulations anyway.
2/11/2024 4:07 pm
In a boxing ring, if you hit your opponent with an uppercut, two straight rights and a vicious left hook while he can only answer with a weak jab, it stands to reason that will be the end of the bout, lights out, sayonara, all she wrote.
However, it is a frustrating feature of online discussions that you cannot force the opponent to give up. If, like the Black Knight in the Monty Python movie, he insists on shouting — with his arms and legs hacked off — “‘Tis but a flesh wound!”, there is really nothing you can do.
On the comp.theory mailing list in 2005, user “xanthian” introduced a new noun to the English language:
I submit this not to insult the esteemed commenters on this thread but in the hope of getting them to reconsider the utility value of continuing to engage with Chief Standing Eagle.
2/11/2024 4:24 pm
I-Roller -
This comp-sci quote from Rick Cook in 1989 sums it up quite nicely, although it was written in another context:
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
2/11/2024 6:23 pm
That’s something that Sulkowicz promised in those FB pages when Nungesser asked her to bring some “cool freshmen” to a party he was throwing.
As far as I’m concerned, the fact that she said that to someone she supposedly believed had violently raped her knocks her credibility completely out the window. Whatever happened between Sulkowicz and Nungesser, I do not believe it was anything like she said it did.
I suppose the next thing we’re going to hear from people who persist in believing her story is that rape victims sometimes become their rapists’ accomplices. But you know what? I don’t believe that is the case here. Sulkowicz was comfortable bringing “da females” because at that time she didn’t view herself as a victim or Nungesser as a rapist. She and Nungesser were still friends at that point. And that is the simplest explanation for the breezy/flirty/chatty communications between the two.
2/11/2024 6:35 pm
Cathy Young’s piece in Reason yesterday is worth a read as well:
Flawed Narratives, Perfect Victims, and the Columbia Rape Allegations —
Can reviving the old myth that women never lie serve justice in any way?
2/11/2024 6:36 pm
Sorry, link here: http://reason.com/archives/2015/02/09/flawed-narratives-perfect-victims-and-th
2/11/2024 8:37 pm
SE:
It is worth noting that the statements can be reconciled, since it might have been a different friend than her best friend and parents are among the toughest people to tell such a thing.
I just sat down to catch up and literally pulled a straw out of my coat pocket while reading this, it was left over from lunch.
I’d say the two separate quotes, under two separate circumstances, pretty much impeaches her credibility as a witness. If there is more on this mystery witness, as per CU’s investigation, then OK, but the burden is definitely on her now. Incidentally, Cathy Young’s article _did_ reference the hearing, through talks with Nungesser and her grad student “supporter”: Neither of them mentioned this third party.
“Why didn’t she follow through with the NYPD?”
Because she would never get a conviction.
This is the second time you have said this. Do you know this as as positive fact? Not necessarily a fact of law, but do you know that she didn’t bother continuing with the NYPD because she knew she wouldn’t get a conviction? Because I heard otherwise.
“Why would a victim of sexual assault featuring being hit in the face and choking need to consult with someone to know that they had been hit and choked?”
I stated the sequence as I stated it deliberately: I believe her statement was that the beating/choking was more ominous than you report. You have repeatedly maintained that a person who has been raped may be in denial for several months. Ok, I’ll go with that. But since when is a person who was beaten or choked in denial about the event? I mean, objectively, either it happened, or it did not happen. Unless we are talking about S/M or the Jovanovic case, people don’t “consent” to being beaten and choked. If it takes someone six months to make up their minds that they were beaten and choked, there’s something wrong.
The FB exchanges show what denial looks like.
Denial is a word that is used in these contexts to show that someone “really” was raped, but doesn’t know it. But from a legal, actionable, standpoint, actions have to be objectively true, not subjectively true. Suggesting that a sexual assault victim can be in denial for months (or years) about the sexual assault until he/she has a Saul of Tarsus moment, which may be true, but even you would have to admit that under those circumstances the determination that sexual assault took place is overwhelmingly subjective, not objective. And I don’t think adjudicating bodies (at colleges) or courts are equipped to deal with statements like, “I felt like I was raped.”
Here’s what else she says:
“I wasn’t really ready to believe that I’d been raped because realizing that you’ve been raped is realizing that people can take control of you and objectify you. In that moment, I wasn’t a human to him. I was just a thing. ”
I think that’s probably an accurate resume of how she felt, especially after he left, and I feel for her. But treating sex partners like meat is not an adjudicable crime.
“And I think a lot of what I’ve been dealing with since then is trying to find ways to believe that I am human. ”
Sounds like she’s trying to recapture the self-respect that she lost by giving into this guy (don’t think for one second that I like PN’s implied interpersonal or sexual style.)
Again, my main complaint that this guy should be publicly shamed for something he was essentially excused from. The idea that someone would take their sexual assault and use it to gain academic credit is also, to me, unsavory. But to each his own.
BTW, I like the definition of co-moron but as long as my interlocutors are nice to me, I don’t care. I’m engaged on this topic because I know something about it, and it’s a long winter such that my attention cannot be turned to more profitable intellectual endeavors at the moment. I will say this. Judicial temperament is an important requirement for a judge, and even for success as an attorney. Imprecision, snide and condescending language, rhetorical gestures such as exaggeration and and false dichotomies would not fly in any court room.
2/11/2024 9:07 pm
Some people pushing the “rape culture” meme have coined the term “rape denialism” to describe skeptical responses to some rape allegations. I agree that sometimes that’s what some of that amounts to. In other cases, it’s an effort to silence reasonable skepticism.
So, I think it’s only fair to introduce a companion term “rape trutherism.” I would define that as stubbornly believing in outlandish allegations and dismissing any behavior by the accuser that undermines his or her claims as either unimportant or evidence that the allegation is true because rape victims “don’t act rationally.” That’s not very far away from people with conspiratorial views of history…any contradictory evidence is “evidence” of the conspiracy. You can’t have a reasonable discussion with someone who is not willing to stipulate what it would take for them to accept that they were wrong.
So, I’ll close this out by asking SE once again, what would it take for you to believe Nungesser was telling the truth and not Sulkowicz?
2/11/2024 10:00 pm
There are a ton of possibilities that would lead me to dismiss Sulkowicz as not credible (and another number that would lead me to suspend my opinion and give Nungesser the benefit of the doubt). I’ve typed in a bunch of them and then had the iPad crash twice, which is frustrating, but some of the big ones are
If the fresh complaint witness did not exist
If Sulkowicz always wanted to be a rape activist
If Nungesser stayed the night
If Sulkowicz was not confident she said No
If Nungesser described with some detail a credible conversation or manifestation of consent to the sex they had
If Sulkowicz ever specifically said that she never spoke to someone the next day about it (as opposed to just saying in the context of whether she reported it that the time she “didn’t want to talk about it”)
Let it be noted that I never believed the Jackie story as RS reported it, and was among the first to dismiss her entirely when the catfishing came to light.
I see only one or two examples of snideness by me in the thread. I think the vitriol is unwarranted.
2/11/2024 10:57 pm
SE, you say you would change views if the fresh complaint witness did not exist. Aside from the vague statements of Sulkowicz (who mentions this person for the first time only after her story is seriously challenged in public), what evidence do you have that the witness exists? How do you know the witness is not Haven Monahan?
It’s odd that she would wait so very long (including after the protracted hearing process that could have gotten “her rapist” off campus) to mention this witness. It’s odd that she did not realize that being beaten and strangled and pinned down and anally violated constitutes rape until this Mystery Person explained it to her. It’s odd that Sulkowicz repeatedly said that she didn’t want to talk about it, and only when cornered flipped around and said that she talked about it almost immediately. It’s odd that the Mystery Person would let Sulkowicz twist in the wind rather than coming forward and saying, “Yes, I remember that conversation, it’s exactly the way Emma said it.” It’s odd that Mystery Person won’t even do this anonymously to favorably biased “reporters” like the twitter hacks at Jezebel.
In light of all this oddness, what can you say in support of the existence of Mystery Person, other than that you find Sulkowicz inherently credible and therefore you will believe whatever she says?
2/11/2024 11:09 pm
Nothing. I don’t think any of the things you call odd is odd, but if the person were established not to exist that would be that.
2/11/2024 11:12 pm
SE: you’re quoting an interview in which Sulkowicz says she “spent months in denial.” Yet now she claims that on the very next morning a friend explained to her that it was rape.
As for your claim that Nungesser didn’t tell his story in enough detail … what sort of details do you need, exactly? There were some fairly intimate details in our interview which I didn’t see any need to include.
2/11/2024 11:48 pm
I really hope that Nungesser has retained some lawyers who are experts on defamation and harassment and he sues Columbia and Sulkowicz.
I cannot fathom how Columbia could allow her to carry out her little campaign to “shame” Nungesser off the campus, let alone give her academic credit for doing so.
I would love to know what Columbia’s reaction would be if Nungesser started walking around campus wearing a t-shirt saying, “I’m innocent, and she’s a pathetic little liar.” Something tells me that that would not be tolerated.
2/11/2024 11:57 pm
It would not surprise me that if tomorrow Nungesser produced a video showing him and Sulkowicz the night in question with her enthusiastically participating and telling Nungesser exactly what to do to her, there would be some people who would say, “Well, you know, when some women are being raped, they may appear to be giving consent and be enjoying themselves but that’s just an initial response before the true shock and horror of what was done to them sets in.” And afterwards, they’d add another reason for Nungesser to be expelled … violating Sulkowicz’s privacy.
2/12/2023 4:47 am
maskirovka:
I really hope that Nungesser has retained some lawyers who are experts on defamation and harassment and he sues Columbia and Sulkowicz.
Law is funny. Things that ordinary people consider fine may expose them to liability, things that would appear to constitute prima facie slander or libel may be ok in the eyes of the law.
It looks like Sulkowicz’ thesis advisor ran the idea by Columbia’s legal people first and they said, well she can’t carry a mattress around and say I’m carrying it around until my rapist Paul Nungesser gets expelled but she can say I’m carrying it around until my rapist gets expelled.
(Never mind that Nungesser was seriously impacted in several ways on campus already, such as having his movements restricted and being shunned by people — word got around with or without the mattress.)
To an ordinary person, Sen. Gillibrand (I keep wanting to write Gilligan LOL) mentioning Sulkowicz’ “rapist” (not “alleged rapist”) would appear to constitute actionable defamation because by then the name Paul Nungesser had appeared in media accounts.
But (1) Gillibrand has immunity as a member of the Congress and (2) she, too, must have had legal advice telling her she could get away with it.
2/12/2023 6:00 am
Cathy Young,
You have been nothing but professional through out this process and we thank you for getting the other side of the story. It is important for journalist in all cases to get the other side of the story. Unless SE is someone of importance (?) you should not have to keep defending and explaining.
2/12/2023 7:44 am
Ms. Young,
As I thought everybody knew, the phrase “in denial” does not mean that someone is unaware of the propositional content of a troubling statement. It means the person is unable to accept or process the statement and proceed accordingly in a logical fashion. The FB exchanges could be a textbook example, if Sulkowicz has described her experience truthfully as well as coherently.
Any level of detail from Nungesser would increase his credibility for readers like me, who have experience with the issue and are not inclined to see the Facebook exchanges and draw any strong conclusion (I.e., “she cray-cray”) from them.
2/12/2023 8:11 am
SE:
You say you have experience and previously mentioned 12 instances. I touched on this in my first comment here, but here I will ask directly…how many showed affection (“I love you, Paul”) for their rapist afterwards, and of those that did how did it manifest?
2/12/2023 8:30 am
Two or three, and I’m not going to give any fact about any particular case. I didn’t ever see any such in writing, often because the dispute wasn’t investigated or adjudicated. This is before people communicated so much by text and FB.
2/12/2023 8:37 am
Haven’t you ever heard of women staying in violently abusive relationships? This is far from uncommon. It is hard to process violence from an intimately trusted person.
2/12/2023 9:00 am
Abusive relationships are a completely different dynamic and situation. Apples and oranges. With your experience I would expect this to be understood.
Certainly you can speak in a general way about the cases without revealing anything you shouldn’t. Did any show the level of affection and flirtatiousness that Emma showed to Paul?
2/12/2023 9:15 am
“Abusive relationships are a completely different dynamic and situation. Apples and oranges.”
Why? She says he was one of her best friends. The impulse to rationalize and forgive is surely similar, although this is a single incident rather than an ongoing pattern.
Again, as to cases I’ve seen, I wasn’t in the room for subsequent interactions and I didn’t see anything in writing.
I have no idea why you’re saying Apples and oranges and just waving your hands as if they’re so clearly distinct. Sulkowicz has given several interviews entirely focused on the fact that it was and is difficult to accept and believe what allegedly happened. That difficulty is not in believing that there are rapists in the world, but that a trusted friend could be so suddenly violent and show no remorse.
2/12/2023 9:33 am
I’ve seen the differences outlined in several articles written about this very case. I am writing on iPad today so please forgive that I don’t write it all out here. Would it be cheeky of me to say “consult an expert”?
What I gather from what you say is that you know that there were interactions of some sort, but can’t know if they were affectionate or not.
On another note, I saw another article by Cathy Young in which it said she specifically asked about the next day friend, and both Paul and his advocate did not see or hear of her at the proceedings. I say that, but then I see Cathy commented above and didn’t mention it, so that makes me wonder if I misunderstood. Perhaps Cathy can comment or someone can find the link.
2/12/2023 9:46 am
David,
I think “at the proceedings” may be a misleading description. Often there is a hearing in which only the principals are heard from, and everything else is done in smaller interview settings and through written statements. There is no need for a witness to testify in person before the whole panel in order for their testimony to be considered, as long as the accused party is privy to what the witness has written or said and can respond to it.
Again, if the fresh complaint witness was not sought or consulted, or if the decision-makers were not allowed to consider the Facebook exchanges at all (as opposed to Nungesser simply not being invited to read them out loud during his appearance), then that is an ASTONISHING breach of protocol. If, however, Columbia looked for the fresh complaint witness and s/he was not produced, then it is clear Sulkowicz lacked and lacks credibility.
The factfinding process may have been more multifaceted than Ms. Young or the (Skyped-in) “faculty supporter” realizes. Nungesser probably had another guide to the process besides the guy across the ocean (one professional enough not to go talking to the media about the internal proceedings). I don’t know — but again, I have no reason to doubt that Columbia did a competent job and investigated fully. In the end they made a judgment call that I might have disagreed with if I had been privy to all and only what they knew; but I might have agreed with it. (Note that “competent” does not mean “reached the correct result in my opinion” necessarily.)
2/12/2023 9:58 am
Here is how Young describes it:
“he was never allowed to present the Facebook exchanges, which he regards as strongly exculpatory, to the panel: The hearing, he claims, had to focus exclusively on the facts of the alleged attack in an attempt to decide whose version of this event was more credible.”
Again, if the panel did not consider the FB exchanges in writing at least, that is an astonishing failure in the investigation.
I am posting again to note that it appears the “faculty supporter” WAS in fact present in person for Nungesser’s testimony and for some prior proceedings. My mistake.
2/12/2023 9:59 am
Umm,
“…but if the person were established not to exist that would be that.”
Isn’t that proving a negative? …Which is impossible by definition.
So we have a situation where if some unnamed and possibly fictitious individual doesn’t exist, that will be taken as dis-positive…
Fascinating. As they say, you can’t make this stuff up… along with false rape accusations, of course.
2/12/2023 10:02 am
The procedures at these hearings are pretty opaque, but IF you are correct with “as long as the accused party is privy to what the witness has written or said and can respond to it”, then I think that pretty much answers the question of whether this next day witness was included in the proceedings. I don’t believe the question was ‘did you lay eyes on this person’, but rather ‘are you aware of this person’.
Regarding your experience, is it accurate to say that your experience comprises 12 cases, 2 or 3 had contact with their alleged rapists after the fact, and you have knowledge of 0 of them being affectionate to their accused attacker (because you don’t know any details of their interactions).
2/12/2023 10:14 am
No, that’s not accurate. They acknowledged that they had been affectionate.
Many other cases involved further interaction. I don’t know why you can’t conceive that these dynamics are very complicated and differ from case to case.
2/12/2023 10:24 am
That’s an impressive correct use of the word “comprises,” by the way.
2/12/2023 10:25 am
I can and do conceive that. I’ve stated it explicitly on this thread.
You invoke your experience a lot. It is also quite germane to know how common or uncommon or how much of an outlier Emma’s behavior is. So I am asking. So 2 or 3 were affectionate. How do you know this? What kind of situation were they? For instance, acquaintances, married couples, etc. I would imagine the dynamics would be different if they were living together when the alleged rape (it was all violent rape, correct?) occurred.
2/12/2023 10:56 am
All rape is violent.
2/12/2023 11:11 am
That’s pretty non-responsive but your point is taken. Let me rephrase…would it all be considered first degree rape, as I believe Emma’s accusation would be considered?
2/12/2023 12:27 pm
No. Again, I’m not interested in disclosing for the sake of your curiosity any fact of any actual example involving non-publicity-seeking individuals. There is actual research on this issue involving much larger sample sizes.
2/12/2023 12:54 pm
The fact finding process may have been
Nungesser probably had another guide to the
It’s bizarre this person is still declaring everyone else’s positions wrong entirely upon supposition. Somehow activists have come to believe the ability to envision a set of circumstances which (if they existed) would explain why a fact or discrepancy isn’t as damning as it appears is the same thing as those circumstances actually existing.
2/12/2023 12:56 pm
Marshal,
Just saying there are possible ways to reconcile the fact that there was no fresh complaint witness at the hearing and the fact that s/he allegedly exists. If s/he does not exist, as I’ve acknowledged, my view on the allegations changes.
2/12/2023 1:21 pm
That’s an interesting way of putting it, “for the sake of my curiosity”. You come on here to, what, presumably educate everyone? You make an appeal to authority, your own, to give yourself some cred. And when asked about the specifics as they relate to this case, clam up.
For the cases in which you say there was interaction after the alleged event, they may or may not involve all rapes, may or may not involve all first degree rapes similar to what we are discussing here, may or may not involve “I love you, Paul” levels of affection, and may not even involve cases where anyone was found guilty (or whatever an adverse finding is called in the proceedings in which you took part.
So, I am game. You are obviously familiar with these studies, bring some facts or at least a citation. Or is this more a general feeling that there must be studies out there, but you aren’t familiar with them or their conclusions? The ephemeral “experts” out there.
2/12/2023 1:22 pm
Not familiar with them myself. No longer in a related profession.
2/12/2023 1:33 pm
So in the end it all comes back to a “feeling” again. You and everyone else on this thread.
I don’t know if you read any of The Spectator at Columbia, but the comment threads there indicate that the “feeling” on campus has drastically shifted.
Meanwhile, Paul and his advocate were presented no evidence that this day after friend exists.
2/12/2023 1:37 pm
Citation for last statement above - mindingthecampus website, Cathy young February 10 story. I can’t cut and paste on this thing.
2/12/2023 1:41 pm
David, you say “Paul and his advocate were presented no evidence that this day after friend exists.” Where did you get that?
All I’ve seen on this topic is from Cathy Young:
“to me, Sulkowicz’s annotations raise more questions than they answer — such as the sudden appearance of the girlfriend to whom she told about the rape the day after. As far as I know, no such friend testified at the hearing.”
That’s Cathy Young’s perspective. She doesn’t say whether she asked Nungesser about such a person. She doesn’t say no such friend testified, and does not acknowledge that there could have been such testimony considered from a separate interview or a written statement rather than “at the hearing.” These proceedings aren’t usually ‘trials’ where everything has to happen in person on the day of. Again, any such testimony must not have been highly persuasive to the panel, but we don’t know that it doesn’t exist.
But maybe you have seen some statement from Nungesser to the effect that he never heard about any day-after friend, which would explain your categorical statement about it. I don’t think we’ve seen any such statement but you can correct me if I’m wrong.
2/12/2023 1:44 pm
SE,
Why don’t you write an article and let all of us pick it apart? How about that?
2/12/2023 1:45 pm
Ah! Thanks, David, I don’t think I had seen this article before. In it Ms. Young says “According to both Nungesser and his student advocate, no friend of Sulkowicz’s testified at the hearing to offer such evidence.” Again, such a thing might exist without being at the hearing. But I take your point and it may be important.
Ms. Young, your statement that begins “As far as I know” there was no such testimony was posted Feb. 9 at 7:50 pm. Can we assume that you spoke to Nungesser and his advocate to confirm that there was no such testimony (at least not at the hearing) between posting that statement and posting the mindingthecampus.com story sometime before 10:43 am on Feb. 10?
Thanks again, David, for anticipating my question.
2/12/2023 1:46 pm
SE: I really think any further argument is pointless. Your arguments seem to shift rapidly depending on convenience. For instance, as I recall, only recently you were arguing that Nungesser and Sulkowicz weren’t that close because they did not talk on Facebook all summer until August (which I pointed out is inaccurate). Now you’re saying they were such close friends that for her to break off this friendship after a brutal assault would have been as difficult as for an abused spouse to get out of a violent relationship.
Also, you suggest that it was unprofessional for Nungesser’s “faculty supporter” to talk to me about the proceedings. (And what does it matter that he talked to me on Skype?) First of all, he wasn’t faculty; he was, at the time, a Columbia U grad student who was involved in mentoring undergrads. Secondly, what exactly is unprofessional about his speaking to me? It’s a bit rich to suggest that while Sulkowicz is free to speak out and impugn the panel members as idiots who don’t understand what rape is, a former CU grad student who was there has no right to offer his own view of the proceedings.
This is my new article that was referenced here:
The Mattress Story Under More Fire
Regarding the “fresh complaint witness”: both Paul and his supporter say that no friend testified at the hearing with the kind of evidence that Sulkowicz describes in her annotations.
If in fact there was a person who could attest that Sulkowicz told her the next day about being raped, and that person was not called to testify at the hearing, this would have been a shocking failure in the proceedings. The fact that this is not among the issues listed in this open letter to Columbia from Sulkowicz’s parents strongly indicates that no such failure occurred.
So there are two possibilities, neither of them favorable to Sulkowicz:
(1) There was no friend and no next-day conversation.
(2) Sulkowicz said something to a friend the day after the incident, but it didn’t support her complaint.
Here’s an interesting hypothetical. Emma gets together with her friend and mentions that she had sex with Paul, and then says that he wanted anal sex and she went along with it even though she didn’t really feel like it. The friend, having gone through sexual assault awareness workshops in which young women have it drummed into their heads that unwanted sexual activity equals rape, says, “Oh my God, it sounds like he raped you!” Emma initially brushes it off and continues to have friendly chats with Paul. However, as they grow more distant, the idea that he raped her starts to take hold in her mind (and she later embellishes it with more violent details).
Sorry if I already posted something like this upthread — don’t have to look through all my posts right now.
Anyhow, I’ll stop here, I think. I’ll still check the thread and may post again if there is something needing clarification, but at the moment I have other projects I need to focus on. I may come back to this story in the coming months, especially if there are developments on the fourth complaint. And I have some information from off-the-record conversations that contains interesting leads.
2/12/2023 1:48 pm
Cathy Young,
You are a saint for dealing with, “SE”.not to mention, you have no issue debating or answering questions.
Sabrina Elderly.. TAKE NOTE.
2/12/2023 1:49 pm
Testing. I’ve been trying to post a comment and it doesn’t seem to be going through… but I’m also told I’m submitting a duplicate comment.
2/12/2023 1:50 pm
SE: I really think further argument is pointless. Your arguments seem to shift rapidly depending on convenience. For instance, as I recall, only recently you were arguing that Nungesser and Sulkowicz weren’t that close because they did not talk on Facebook all summer until August (which I pointed out is inaccurate). Now you’re saying they were such close friends that for her to break off this friendship after a brutal assault would have been as difficult as for an abused spouse to get out of a violent relationship.
Also, you suggest that it was unprofessional for Nungesser’s “faculty supporter” to talk to me about the proceedings. (And what does it matter that he talked to me on Skype?) First of all, he wasn’t faculty; he was, at the time, a Columbia U grad student who was involved in mentoring undergrads. Secondly, what exactly is unprofessional about his speaking to me? It’s a bit rich to suggest that while Sulkowicz is free to speak out and impugn the panel members as idiots who don’t understand what rape is, a former CU grad student who was there has no right to offer his own view of the proceedings.
This is my new article that was referenced here:
The Mattress Story Under More Fire
Regarding the “fresh complaint witness”: both Paul and his supporter say that no friend testified at the hearing with the kind of evidence that Sulkowicz describes in her annotations.
If in fact there was a person who could attest that Sulkowicz told her the next day about being raped, and that person was not called to testify at the hearing, this would have been a shocking failure in the proceedings. The fact that this is not among the issues listed in this open letter to Columbia from Sulkowicz’s parents strongly indicates that no such failure occurred.
So there are two possibilities, neither of them favorable to Sulkowicz:
(1) There was no friend and no next-day conversation.
(2) Sulkowicz said something to a friend the day after the incident, but it didn’t support her complaint.
Here’s an interesting hypothetical. Emma gets together with her friend and mentions that she had sex with Paul, and then says that he wanted anal sex and she went along with it even though she didn’t really feel like it. The friend, having gone through sexual assault awareness workshops in which young women have it drummed into their heads that unwanted sexual activity equals rape, says, “Oh my God, it sounds like he raped you!” Emma initially brushes it off and continues to have friendly chats with Paul. However, as they grow more distant, the idea that he raped her starts to take hold in her mind (and she later embellishes it with more violent details).
Sorry if I already posted something like this upthread — don’t have to look through all my posts right now.
Anyhow, I’ll stop here, I think. I’ll still check the thread and may post again if there is something needing clarification, but at the moment I have other projects I need to focus on. I may come back to this story in the coming months, especially if there are developments on the fourth complaint. And I have some information from off-the-record conversations that contains interesting leads.
2/12/2023 1:50 pm
Sorry, SE, but I really think any further argument is pointless. Your arguments seem to shift rapidly depending on convenience. For instance, as I recall, only recently you were arguing that Nungesser and Sulkowicz weren’t that close because they did not talk on Facebook all summer until August (which I pointed out is inaccurate). Now you’re saying they were such close friends that for her to break off this friendship after a brutal assault would have been as difficult as for an abused spouse to get out of a violent relationship.
Also, you suggest that it was unprofessional for Nungesser’s “faculty supporter” to talk to me about the proceedings. (And what does it matter that he talked to me on Skype?) First of all, he wasn’t faculty; he was, at the time, a Columbia U grad student who was involved in mentoring undergrads. Secondly, what exactly is unprofessional about his speaking to me? It’s a bit rich to suggest that while Sulkowicz is free to speak out and impugn the panel members as idiots who don’t understand what rape is, a former CU grad student who was there has no right to offer his own view of the proceedings.
This is my new article that was referenced here:
The Mattress Story Under More Fire
Regarding the “fresh complaint witness”: both Paul and his supporter say that no friend testified at the hearing with the kind of evidence that Sulkowicz describes in her annotations.
If in fact there was a person who could attest that Sulkowicz told her the next day about being raped, and that person was not called to testify at the hearing, this would have been a shocking failure in the proceedings. The fact that this is not among the issues listed in this open letter to Columbia from Sulkowicz’s parents strongly indicates that no such failure occurred.
So there are two possibilities, neither of them favorable to Sulkowicz:
(1) There was no friend and no next-day conversation.
(2) Sulkowicz said something to a friend the day after the incident, but it didn’t support her complaint.
Here’s an interesting hypothetical. Emma gets together with her friend and mentions that she had sex with Paul, and then says that he wanted anal sex and she went along with it even though she didn’t really feel like it. The friend, having gone through sexual assault awareness workshops in which young women have it drummed into their heads that unwanted sexual activity equals rape, says, “Oh my God, it sounds like he raped you!” Emma initially brushes it off and continues to have friendly chats with Paul. However, as they grow more distant, the idea that he raped her starts to take hold in her mind (and she later embellishes it with more violent details).
Sorry if I already posted something like this upthread — don’t have to look through all my posts right now.
Anyhow, I’ll stop here, I think. I’ll still check the thread and may post again if there is something needing clarification, but at the moment I have other projects I need to focus on. I may come back to this story in the coming months, especially if there are developments on the fourth complaint. And I have some information from off-the-record conversations that contains interesting leads.
Carry on.
2/12/2023 1:51 pm
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2/12/2023 1:53 pm
Well, that comment stubbornly refuses to go through — obviously there is something wrong with it.
So, typing again to cover the main points.
Yes, both Nungesser and his supporter told me that no friend testified at the hearing.
By the way, SE, you suggest that it was unprofessional for Nungesser’s “faculty supporter” to talk to me about the proceedings. (And what does it matter that he talked to me on Skype?) First of all, he wasn’t faculty; he was, at the time, a Columbia U grad student who was involved in mentoring undergrads. Secondly, what exactly is unprofessional about his speaking to me? It’s a bit rich to suggest that while Sulkowicz is free to speak out and impugn the panel members as idiots who don’t understand what rape is, a former CU grad student who was there has no right to offer his own view of the proceedings.
This is my new article that was referenced here:
The Mattress Story Under More Fire
Regarding the “fresh complaint witness”: both Paul and his supporter say that no friend testified at the hearing with the kind of evidence that Sulkowicz describes in her annotations.
If in fact there was a person who could attest that Sulkowicz told her the next day about being raped, and that person was not called to testify at the hearing, this would have been a shocking failure in the proceedings. The fact that this is not among the issues listed in this open letter to Columbia from Sulkowicz’s parents strongly indicates that no such failure occurred.
So there are two possibilities, neither of them favorable to Sulkowicz:
(1) There was no friend and no next-day conversation.
(2) Sulkowicz said something to a friend the day after the incident, but it didn’t support her complaint.
Here’s an interesting hypothetical. Emma gets together with her friend and mentions that she had sex with Paul, and then says that he wanted anal sex and she went along with it even though she didn’t really feel like it. The friend, having gone through sexual assault awareness workshops in which young women have it drummed into their heads that unwanted sexual activity equals rape, says, “Oh my God, it sounds like he raped you!” Emma initially brushes it off and continues to have friendly chats with Paul. However, as they grow more distant, the idea that he raped her starts to take hold in her mind (and she later embellishes it with more violent details).
Sorry if I already posted something like this upthread — don’t have to look through all my posts right now.
Anyhow, I’ll stop here, I think. I’ll still check the thread and may post again if there is something needing clarification, but at the moment I have other projects I need to focus on. I may come back to this story in the coming months, especially if there are developments on the fourth complaint. And I have some information from off-the-record conversations that contains interesting leads.
Carry on.
2/12/2023 1:54 pm
This is a totally neutral comment on the nature of the discussion and not on the subject itself:
It appears that most people here are treating the discussion kind of like they are causally discussing something at a neighborhood BBQ in order to learn something, even though some of their language sounds more like legal jargon than common, everyday English, while SE seems to be treating the discussion more like he is actually advocating for a client in a courtroom and thus is trying to give as little ground as possible in order to avoid boxing himself in, and which, in that context, the nature of his responses makes perfect sense.
While neither approach is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, the end result is akin to what we would have if we had one person who only speaks an Australian dialect of Eskimo, and another who only speaks a Swahili dialect of Russian… neither side is going to be understood very well by the other, and there is almost zero hope of any meaningful agreement.
2/12/2023 1:55 pm
SE: I really think any further argument is pointless. Your arguments seem to shift rapidly depending on convenience. For instance, as I recall, only recently you were arguing that Nungesser and Sulkowicz weren’t that close because they did not talk on Facebook all summer until August (which I pointed out is inaccurate). Now you’re saying they were such close friends that for her to break off this friendship after a brutal assault would have been as difficult as for an abused spouse to get out of a violent relationship.
Also, you suggest that it was unprofessional for Nungesser’s “faculty supporter” to talk to me about the proceedings. (And what does it matter that he talked to me on Skype?) First of all, he wasn’t faculty; he was, at the time, a Columbia U grad student who was involved in mentoring undergrads. Secondly, what exactly is unprofessional about his speaking to me? It’s a bit rich to suggest that while Sulkowicz is free to speak out and impugn the panel members as idiots who don’t understand what rape is, a former CU grad student who was there has no right to offer his own view of the proceedings.
This is my new article that was referenced here:
http://www.mindingthecampus.com/2015/02/the-mattress-story-under-more-fire/
Regarding the “fresh complaint witness”: Yes, both Nungesser and his supporter have confirmed to me that no friend testified at the hearing with the kind of evidence that Sulkowicz describes in her annotations.
If in fact there was a person who could attest that Sulkowicz told her the next day about being raped, and that person was not called to testify at the hearing, this would have been a shocking failure in the proceedings. The fact that this is not among the issues listed in this open letter to Columbia from Sulkowicz’s parents strongly indicates that no such failure occurred.
http://columbiaspectator.com/opinion/2014/10/02/open-letter-president-bollinger-and-board-trustees
So there are two possibilities, neither of them favorable to Sulkowicz:
(1) There was no friend and no next-day conversation.
(2) Sulkowicz said something to a friend the day after the incident, but it didn’t support her complaint.
Here’s an interesting hypothetical. Emma gets together with her friend and mentions that she had sex with Paul, and then says that he wanted anal sex and she went along with it even though she didn’t really feel like it. The friend, having gone through sexual assault awareness workshops in which young women have it drummed into their heads that unwanted sexual activity equals rape, says, “Oh my God, it sounds like he raped you!” Emma initially brushes it off and continues to have friendly chats with Paul. However, as they grow more distant, the idea that he raped her starts to take hold in her mind (and she later embellishes it with more violent details).
Sorry if I already posted something like this upthread — don’t have to look through all my posts right now.
Anyhow, I’ll stop here, I think. I’ll still check the thread and may post again if there is something needing clarification, but at the moment I have other projects I need to focus on. I may come back to this story in the coming months, especially if there are developments on the fourth complaint. And I have some information from off-the-record conversations that contains interesting leads.
Carry on.
2/12/2023 1:59 pm
This is an interesting challenge to Sulkowicz in the mindingthecampus.com article: did she invent the suggestion (or mere question) from the Columbia misconduct office that she “talk it out” with Nungesser in the spring? This is an interesting question.
I don’t think Ms. Young correctly represents the policy in question — she says that informal resolution is never recommended in sexual-assault cases, but in fact the policy just says that the university won’t be a part of such an attempted resolution.
“The Gender-Based Misconduct Office may seek to resolve
certain gender-based misconduct cases through an informal process involving both the complainant and respondent…. This type of informal resolution can take place during the investigation or after its conclusion. If, based on the information known about the incident, the Gender-Based Misconduct Office believes such a resolution is possible, the Office will speak with
the complainant. If the complainant agrees, the Office will then speak with the respondent. If both complainant and respondent are satisfied with a proposed resolution and the Office believes the resolution satisfies the University’s obligation to provide a safe and non-discriminatory environment for all students, the resolution will be implemented, the disciplinary process will be concluded and the matter will be closed. If these efforts are unsuccessful, the disciplinary process will continue. …. The University will not use informal resolution for cases involving allegations of sexual assault.”
Although Ms. Young misrepresents the policy, it is quite surprising that the office would have heard Sulkowicz’s full allegations story and then suggested that the two talk it out.
Ms. Young, you might be having trouble posting if you are including links. They have to be moderated and Richard doesn’t put them through.
2/12/2023 2:12 pm
I give up on posting that comment. Don’t blame me if it shows up five or six times. 😀
I will say that yes, both Nungesser and his supporter have confirmed to me that no friend testified at the hearing about a next-day conversation with Sulkowicz.
If a fresh complaint witness existed but was not called, you can bet Sulkowicz’s parents would have brought up such a shocking failure in their open letter to Bollinger, here:
http://columbiaspectator.com/opinion/2014/10/02/open-letter-president-bollinger-and-board-trustees
Also, the “faculty supporter” was not faculty but a grad student, and I don’t see why it’s relevant that we talked on Skype or why it’s unprofessional for him to talk to me. Sulkowicz can publicly trash the panelists at the hearing as insensitive morons who don’t understand what rape is, and yet a person who was there can’t speak to a journalist to contradict her?
2/12/2023 2:17 pm
LOL, yes, that explains why my posts are not going through. Sorry, Richard.
I’ll leave out links and answer SE’s question: yes, both Nungesser and his supporter (who is not faculty, by the way, but a former CU grad student who was involved in mentoring undergraduates) have confirmed to me that no next-day friend testified at the hearing.
2/12/2023 2:28 pm
SE claimed Just saying there are possible ways to reconcile the fact that there was no fresh complaint witness at the hearing and the fact that s/he allegedly exists
This is not an complete summary as SE’s position is the FB postings and annotations are “perfect” and anyone claiming they raise questions is wrong. To maintain this fiction he’s trying to isolate the existence issue so he doesn’t have to reevaluate the accusations he’s leveled which assumed the existence of the FCW (and therefore that the annotations are “perfect”) as a base fact. That dispute (which was a ridiculous assertion from minute one) is now eliminated by his own admission, yet he’s still drawing conclusions based on his now discredited evaluation.
He’s also confused various other truths and their implications. Consider these two statements:
(1) People in traumatic situations including rape often act differently than we expect.
(2) Any action by a person suffering trauma including rape is equally likely and thus we can draw no conclusions whatsoever about any of them.
Statement one is obviously true, statement two is obviously false. SE continually reiterates statement one but makes assertions that can only be drawn if statement two were correct.
It’s hard to believe anyone could honestly arrive at this combination of conclusions unless they were determined to attack everyone supportive of a more skeptical evaluation no matter the facts.
2/12/2023 2:38 pm
Personally, I think this FCW is manufactured, in light of the Daily beast article, as a form of damage control. Here is what she said last May:
“When it first happened, I didn’t want to talk to anyone. I didn’t even tell my parents. … I didn’t even want to talk to my best friend.”
2/12/2023 2:49 pm
SE. I think that is would go a long way in convincing a lot of us that Emma’s story is plausible if you can point to a single case study that is closely analogous to the present case, where the accused was found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
By that I mean a case involving a financially stable, college age accuser who was brutally raped by a friend, and who maintained friendly contact with her rapist for some months after the rape.
2/12/2023 2:58 pm
LOL, sorry about littering this thread with my attempts to post that comment…
2/12/2023 3:01 pm
I said the annotations in themselves make perfect sense to me. If one of them (the most readily falsifiable) is a lie, then my opinion about whether they’re coherent doesn’t change — although of course my opinion about Sulkowicz and her veracity changes radically.
2/12/2023 3:17 pm
SE, maybe you can point us towards your numerous articles on this subject, so that we can more easily understand and critique your theories on this case?
2/12/2023 3:25 pm
The article by ES’ parents is interesting.
“Emma was not allowed to explain, in her own words, the timing of her reporting. Emma tried to explain that, after meeting two women who told her they too had been raped by Nungesser (only one of whom filed a complaint), she realized that she should overcome personal shame and report him to ensure the safety of others. Ms. Siler told her to stop talking and pulled her from the room. To the panelists, the timing of Emma’s decision to report that she was raped—seven months after she said it had occurred—remained a mystery. The reason for her conflict with Ms. Siler could only be fodder for their speculation.”
So, in other words, ES didn’t decide that she was raped until she met two other women who also said they had been raped, but actually no one believes they were raped, based on the evidence. No wonder Ms Siler took her out of the room.
“Emma’s request that the investigative report presented to the panelists be cleared of errors and presented in clear narrative form was denied. Due to the carelessness of the investigator’s note-taking, the incoherent report—full of confusing errata and addenda—contained factual errors as well, such as the length of time that Emma said Nungesser lay next to her after the incident (seconds, not “minutes”). There is no doubt that the denial of this request actively hurt her case.”
So ES’ parents seem to think that it is a critical error to claim that PN lingered for minutes, when in fact he fled seconds after the anal rape. This goes with the whole “ran away” narrative. How this jibes with the FB messages of a couple days later, when PN asks her to come to his party with some girls is not easy to see.
“Although Emma filed a criminal report with the NYPD against Nungesser, she has learned from the district attorney’s office that pursuit of criminal charges would result in another prolonged investigation and adjudication that would not be resolved during the remainder of her time at Columbia University. ”
So, in other words, she dropped out of the criminal investigation because it would take too long.
[Columbia’s current policy of handling such complaints] “deprives those who are guilty the chance to learn and reform their behavior, and does them no good service. (We feel that expulsion for a crime at a young age is a much milder and potentially more instructive punishment than incarceration at a later age.)”
Expulsion as a learning experience! They just want PN to get an A!
There’s lots more, read it for yourselves.
2/12/2023 3:29 pm
Richard, if you could delete the duplicate comment at 1:55 that would be great. (Is there any way commenters could be notified that their post is in moderation queue?)
Anyway, before I go-not to be terribly cryptic, but I have some interesting information about possibly relevant to the “next day friend” story and also to the fourth complainant that is currently off the record, but may become public if I can verify it. Stay tuned.
2/12/2023 3:37 pm
Cathy Young —
You sound like Preet Bharara, the US Attorney, who after he charged Sheldon Silver, the former Speaker of the NY legislature with taking bribes, said at a press conference that ‘you should stay tuned’…
We want it now!…
P.S. Thanks for educating me the other night on the witch trials… can I learn about stuff like that by watching Nickelodeon?
2/12/2023 3:40 pm
Thanks for your work Cathy. I’m sure you’re aware of the disgraceful article “End Emma’s Story” published in the Columbia Spectator yesterday. Don’t let this story go, the rad-fems have overplayed their hand one time too many and I feel like we are on the verge of a real political shift on campuses across the country.
2/12/2023 3:56 pm
Anonymous -
Unfortunately I don’t think that will be enough. The reason we have this situation in the first place is because the political class in D.C. are too cowardly to do their jobs and out-sourced it to the schools, most of whom are thrilled with that outcome because it suits their agenda. I do wonder if some of these women ever consider that these horror stories could happen to their own sons, and how those same sons feel about their own mothers, although on second thought they (the sons) have probably been indoctrinated since birth to believe in radical feminism and not the original concept of it and so are oblivious to their own danger.
Also, I’ve enjoyed reading your comments… that is, if I’m talking to the correct ‘Anonymous’… it’s a bit unfortunate that your parents gave you such a common name… don’t get me wrong - it’s a very nice name but it makes it very difficult to tell who is who under certain circumstances.
2/12/2023 4:21 pm
SPMoore8
So, in other words, ES didn’t decide that she was raped until she met two other women who also said they had been raped, but actually no one believes they were raped, based on the evidence. No wonder Ms Siler took her out of the room.
It sounds like the parents are either operating from a quite slanted view of the case or are have internalized the activist position supporting a fake-but-accurate narrative.
2/12/2023 5:04 pm
Gah, that last comment of mine is rather sloppily written. But you know what I mean.
Thank you for the kind words. One difficulty for me in pursuing this story at this point is that, after all the publicity surrounding my Daily Beast story, people may not want to talk to me. If the New York Times had any real integrity, they’d re-investigate this story the way The Washington Post re-investigated the Rolling Stone story. (Which is not to say that the two are equally fake, but there are certainly major questions here as well about the veracity of the narrative presented until now.) They could try to track down the next-day friend, for instance. (It shouldn’t be hard — just ask Sulkowicz what this firend’s name is!)
Sadly, I don’t think the Times will step up to the plate. As for me, I may have to lend my leads to another journalist.
2/12/2023 5:17 pm
I’m trying to figure out what is so incredibly objectionable about the student op/ed piece “end Emma’s story.” I tracked it down, and it just seems so bland. “Stop making a circus of one case” is the message. Sure the writer arrived at this conclusion at the moment the crowd stopped cheering the lion-tamer and started to cheer for the lion. But this is hardly the worst thing that has been said in this case, on either side.
Ms. Young, I read your new piece, and it’s interesting that you give a bit more focus there, and so do the commenters, to the idea that ES seems willing to bring women to PN’s party. Prior to focusing on that, I felt the messages were indeed important bits of information, but not necessarily overwhelming (as commenter SE has put it, and as you have been at pains to admit here and elsewhere.) It’s not fair to say “rape victims do weird things, so these messages are meaningless.” But it is fair to say “rape victims don’t always immediately dissociate from their attackers, so these messages don’t prove that she is lying.” I could see her wanting to say “what the hell … I liked you a lot … how could you do this to me?” I could see her not feeling frightened, because she perceived the guy as having a split personality, a decent guy who turned awful in flagrante delicto, but would be just the old Paul if he met her when they both had all their clothes on, and might have some explanation for his barbarity. Or something like that.
I’m not saying I think it’s most likely. Just saying it’s conceivable to me that an acquaintance rape victim could think that. It’s conceivable to me that an acquaintance rape victim would write off the violence on the basis of “someone must have done something to him … he has so many good qualtiies.’ Or pursue that thought process for a few weeks.
But it’s quite another thing to commit to bring other women to your attacker, in an implicitly sexual communication. A text from sweet old PN might elicit a confused effort to try to reconcile her varied experiences of him. But surely the message “bring me innocent freshman women” would prompt utter revulsion. There is no hint that she was contemplating a public confrontation, which at any rate seems unlikely and unprecedented to me. So I dismiss out of hand the idea that she might have contemplated actually bringing women with her for the purpose of confronting him. And even in her annotations, she doesn’t say there was any sarcasm in her reply. Just “I agree to do so.”
The other weak point to her case, as I re-read the texts, is that their first post-event communication starts with PN asking her to come to the party and bring people. There’s been a lot of “is this how a victim reacts?” But this raises the question of “is this how a violent rapist acts?” A day and a half ago he anally raped her, gripping her throat and punching her while she screamed, then runs out seconds later (not minutes, seconds, insist her parents) and then he writes blandly to see if she’ll bring freshmen to his party?
Now, if their encounter two nights before presented muddier issues, maybe I could see this happening. If she briefly expressed her no, then seemed (in his mind) to acquiesce, but didn’t scream, and later embellished it, then it seems plausible that she didn’t consent, but he didn’t realize it; that she felt like she was raped with some reason, and he felt like he hadn’t raped her, also with some reason. But that’s not how she has told her story.
You’ve mentioned the possibility both ES and PN may be lying. Smoke from a different fire. That’s possible. I don’t expect “perfect victims” as the phrase goes these days. But what she has said about the incident matters tremendously to her credibility.
The lesson here for real rape victims is, immediately find someone you trust and tell your story. Send yourself an email account so it resides on a time-trackable server somewhere. If you’re too rattled to go the police right away, take pictures, or better, video, since my guess is that most Columbia students have video-enabled smartphones and could immediately send the video to themselves, for time-stamp purposes. Ideally go to a hospital for testing. Do this even if you’re not entirely certain you were raped, because it gives you a mooring in space, time and reality. Something to measure your own memories and reactions against later. If you were raped, these things will help. If you decide you weren’t raped, doing these things may still help you come to terms with whatever did happen to you.
Accusations against someone don’t require ‘perfect victims’. But they require some credibility and some evidence. Don’t do things that actively destroy your own credibility and make the very idea of evidence impossible.
2/12/2023 7:19 pm
Google “The Stanford Undergraduate and the Mentor” for a new NYT story about another “rape”. I don’t think this one is going to help the “always believe the survivor” cause.
2/12/2023 11:23 pm
…it was pretty appalling. The “mentor” was wrong to use his status to pursue the girl in question…but she comes across as a complete nutcase.
2/13/2015 8:10 am
To “I read the article about Stanford…”: As a wise friend once told me, tongue in cheek, “of course you realize, they’re all insane” Its really just a question where they fall on the continuum of insanity.
2/14/2015 5:30 pm
SpMoore8 —
Thanks for summarizing the open letter from Mattress Girl’s parents, for those of us (me) too lazy to read it ourselves. This particular quote says a lot:
“[Columbia’s current policy of handling such complaints] “deprives those who are guilty the chance to learn and reform their behavior, and does them no good service. (We feel that expulsion for a crime at a young age is a much milder and potentially more instructive punishment than incarceration at a later age.)””
______________
All I can say is, if I truly believed that my daughter was violently raped, choked, etc., “expulsion” of the assailant would not be my avenue of redress. The KINDEST thing you might expect is a full-fledged criminal complaint, with the purpose of establishing a permanent position for the young man on New York’s sex offender registry, that is, AFTER the lengthy prison sentence.
Mattress Girl’s parents’ advocacy for a “more instructive punishment” suggests to me that either: (1) they are far more forgiving of violent rape of their own children than most parents would be; or (2) they believe that what happened was something less than the brutal assault their daughter alleges.
2/14/2015 6:28 pm
I believe the Sulkowicz/Jezebel side here has a compelling case, though a couple “Jackie” alarms are going off for me as well.
But one thing that makes the discussion of this issue quite frustrating is the Jezebel argumentative tactic where they hide behind the canard of “only being a lowly gossip blog” rather than engaging with critics in a serious way. They buried their mea culpa over the Erdely affair in a lot of trivial gossip about Fred Armisen or whoever.
This makes it pretty hard to take them seriously, even when they might be right.
2/14/2015 11:32 pm
Journalist (and former lawyer) Jared S. Baumeister just gave a good summary of the facts and a constistent story of what might have happened between Sulkowicz and Nungesser (just google “Is Emma Sulkowicz Telling the Truth? Do Facts Matter?”). Here´s a summary of what makes him doubt her version of events:
1. Sulkowicz did not get a rape kit after the incident.
2. She alleges that Nungesser hit her, choked her and pinned her down during the rape - an assault that would be likely to leave bruises and marks on the victim. Yet there is no physical evidence to corroborate her claims and no photos showing such injuries.
3. Sulkowicz’s rape claim came before a panel at Columbia University where the standard of guilt was merely preponderance of the evidence. Despite this low threshold, and the fact that Nungesser was not allowed to introduce the Facebook messages, the panel still found him “not responsible”.
4. Sulkowicz has not brought a civil suit against Nungesser.
5. Sulkowicz filed a police report. Yet the D.A. did not charge Nungesser and there is not a criminal case against him pending.
Here´s the version of events Baumeister proposes: “Extrapolating from the Facebook conversations between Paul and Emma, that they had a casual sexual relationship, Emma became emotionally invested, Paul did not reciprocate these feelings and as a result Emma felt scorned and angry. Perhaps as the reality of the relationship, or lack there of became apparent to Emma over the course of several months, she, fueled by this anger, brought the rape charges.”
Sounds compelling.
2/14/2015 11:41 pm
Baumeister is clearly an asshole. None of his reasons except #3 is persuasive.
2/14/2015 11:55 pm
@May
Thank you for calling that article to our attention here. I pretty much agree with all of it. Regarding Sulkowicz, I can buy the “hell hath no fury like a woman scorned” thesis but I also wonder if there’s a bit of “I had sex with Paul because I thought he loved me…He doesn’t, and if I knew that, I wouldn’t have had sex with him. Therefore, that sex was rape.”
I also can’t help but think of how unnatural this “carry the weight” performance art project is. Maybe if she had made a sincere effort to get criminal proceedings and filed a civil suit against him with both failing, I could see someone doing that…maybe. But I really do wonder how many rape victims would want spend every moment of every day lugging what amounts to a fifty pound “sign” that shouts out “I was raped” and defines them first and foremost as victims.
I can certainly understand why a rape victim might become an activist, make speeches, and do volunteer work against sexual violence but carrying a stupid mattress around and making a constant spectacle of herself makes no sense to me if she’s a bona fide victim (which I do not believe at all). But if she is an attention seeking neurotic and/or someone who enjoys being perceived as a “victim-hero,” it makes a lot of sense.
2/15/2015 12:34 am
@maskirovka77
There is another aspect of this performance art project making it very difficult for me to believe that she´s a rape victim: Carrying such a matress extremely restricts your field of vision and your ability to flee or fight back a potential attacker - nothing a deeply traumatized person could presumably feel comfortable with.
2/15/2015 1:41 am
@SE
Your ad hominem against Baumeister is noted. About par for your debating skills.
2/15/2015 8:24 am
It is worth noting that the self-parodically daft exchange that just happened, premised on what a victim would be expected to do if she were a rat in a maze in a BF Skinner lab run by Gomer Pyle and funded by Ayn Rand and Pat Robertson, is different only in degree — and not by much — from Cathy Young’s way of analyzing the events in this case.
An alleged rape victim who ever takes an action motivated by anything but fear is a phony. All rape is committed by psychopathic predators. (Every sudden contact to quiet protest is a “punch.”). Women should instantly call in the protective boys in blue and then hide at home until being brought forth, wan and trembling, to testify in modest and appropriate language, telling a story in which their own sexuality and prior consent plays no part whatsoever.
Like David Brooks on his own topics, Ms. Young couches her analysis so it doesn’t seem as foolish and malicious and retrograde as the stylings of May and Maskirovka just now. But she is of their party, and Baranowski is just another such with a fetish for SVU police procedure.
2/15/2015 8:29 am
@maskirovka77
“carry that weight” is unusual all right. but is it possible that the antirape movement on campuses is succeeding in getting victims to respond differently than they used to? (in which case: it’s too bad the movement isn’t using this power to get victims to go to the police immediately!) At any rate, using “carry that weight” ITSELF as evidence that Sulkowocz is lying strikes me as convoluted logic. Apply it to other situations and I think you’ll see its ugliness.
@ May
It’s quite possible to choke and slap someone during sex in a “playful” fashion, imitating the way this is done in porn, which does not leave a bruise. So, the absence of bruises also does not strike me as compelling evidence that Sulkowicz is lying.
That said, the evidence against Nungesser doesn’t strike me as compelling either. What there *IS* evidence for is that he’s being harassed.
2/15/2015 8:36 am
Pratt: thank you for being a sane human being. And I agree that Nungesser is undergoing an awful ordeal here, which might possibly be quite undeserved.
It is definitely to be hoped that less delayed reporting will come from better awareness of acquaintance and similar rape. What makes you think this isn’t already an emphasis of many activists and campus leaders, paid and otherwise, on the topic?
I think Ryan’s comment above is the best on the thread, in part because of the way it addresses this directly and empathically.
2/15/2015 8:47 am
I think that the mattress project taken in context with all the things that she failed to do is outlandish behavior.
if she had pursued a criminal complaint or sued Nungesser and also did the mattress thing, I would think it very strange but not proof of very much.
Bottom line for me: for some it seems like there’s no post-incident behavior Sulkowicz could have engaged that would negatively impact her credibility.
I continue to believe that the willingness by some here to “convict” Nungesser solely on the word of an accuser is disturbing and upends the bedrock principles of our justice system.
2/15/2015 8:52 am
“I am eighteen months removed from the bar exam and I was not methodical enough.”
Confessing to something like that might not make you an asshole, although people can be excused for thinking that it does, notwithstanding the other supporting evidence, but it clearly makes you a sloppy half-doer.
It’s difficult to imagine that anyone a year and a half removed from the bar exam could be any sort of ‘rain-maker’ (bringing in significant amounts of business) short of trading on connections associated with coming from a prominent and/or wealthy family, and we have no evidence that this is the case, so it’s reasonable to question who would be so foolish and/or desperate to hire you as a ‘non non-attorney’ for any legal skills that you might profess to have. Furthermore, it’s equally difficult to imagine that any reputable law practice of any size would want to have someone who is so utterly lacking in, well, everything associated with good professional and social behavior as a member of its staff.
Are you self employed? Were those dozen or so cases that you keep citing your only clients to date? And were those clients so unfortunate as to have no other options for legal counsel?
I will credit you that your lack of self-awareness is truly stunning… absolutely breathtaking.
2/15/2015 9:09 am
@SE
You write “I agree that Nungesser is undergoing an awful ordeal here, which might possibly be quite undeserved.”
I think this is where you and I disagree — not about the he-said/she-said stuff, but about the desirability of mob justice. To me, if Nungesser was acquitted by the Columbia’s panel and no formal charges were ever pressed against him, then it’s unacceptable for the pitchfork-wielding mob to decide, a year later, that he deserves to have his life ruined. We have a justice system for a reason. It needs to be improved, not ignored. When I see the mob screaming for someone’s blood, my mind wanders to the lynchings of black men in the south, and to the pogroms of Europe. Regardless of what actually happened between Sulkowicz and Nungesser, this is not an acceptable dynamic. Only the justice system has the right to determine what Nungesser does and doesn’t “deserve.” So, the way you smuggled the phrase “which might possibly be quite undeserved” into your sentence bothers me. You’re leaving open space for the possibility that all this has been a very just outcome. It hasn’t. Not at all, and not for any of us. Mob justice is never a win. That’s why it’s so important for the campus antirape movement to focus its efforts on getting law enforcement more involved.
2/15/2015 9:31 am
I agree with that, Pratt. I didn’t mean to imply that there is anything appropriate about Nungesser’s present situation. I am in fact a huge believer in proper procedure above just about everything else.
(I have not piped in to agree with the Sulkowiczes’ letter to the President. I do not agree with much of it. It looks to me as if procedure was followed.)
2/15/2015 9:42 am
To all those who have suggested that SE is really Sabrina Rubin Erdely…
I think it’s more likely that he is actually Lena Dunham, what with his reflexive assertions of being ‘of one’ with the victims, including fake ones, and thinking that that alone is enough to make him morally superior to the rest of us, never mind that any right-minded person does have sympathy for real victims, and in spite of the fact that he has presented no unimpeachable evidence that he has actually done anything to help victims other than exercising his tonsils.
2/15/2015 9:42 am
So did you pass the bar exam, SE?
2/15/2015 10:54 am
I-Roller -
Asking that question would seem to have only two possible motives: 1) an entirely innocent curiosity, and 2) an implied inference that to you (and possibility many others including myself) SE’s credibility is, to put it charitably, suspect.
Unfortunately, even if SE’s credibility has been overwhelmingly impeached by most commenters and even if he knows it — I’m not making either claim, only an observation — that is not enough to prevent him from carrying on as if he is the most credible individual in the world.
SE knows full well that blog comments have an extremely rare half-life, in that very few people read the entire thread, and thus any number of instances where he has disavowed his own words and made ad hominem attacks quite quickly become for all intents and purposes as if they never existed.
The net result is that as some commenters get tired of trying to reason with someone who doesn’t appear lucid, new ones come along to engage him… lather, rinse, repeat…
2/15/2015 12:56 pm
@ pratt
Choking and slaping someone during sex “in a “playful” fashion, imitating the way this is done in porn” is not exactly what Sulkowics alleges:
“They started to have sex, she said, but then he began to choke her, slapped her face, pinned her arms and penetrated her anally. She said she
had screamed for him to stop, but that he would not.
“It could take two minutes for it to stop, or he could have strangled me to death,” she said. (New York Times, “Fight Against Sexual Assaults Holds
Colleges to Account”)
2/15/2015 6:44 pm
for the most part, people have avoided calling each other names or equating each other to Nazis unlike a lot of “discussions” online about controversial topics
2/15/2015 9:02 pm
SE:
You write: “What makes you think this isn’t already an emphasis of many activists and campus leaders, paid and otherwise, on the topic?”
I have not systematically reviewed the campus antirape literature. My sense of its present strategies is informed by observations of my own campus, as well as a long habit of following coverage of these issues in the Chronicle of Higher Ed, Jezebel, and a few other places. My sense, which is imperfect and incomplete, is that:
1) Campus administrators’ priority is to protect the school’s reputation, rather than get the police involved. The campus antirape movement does not focus any of its political energy on forcing administrators to flip those priorities. I have never seen a protest sign outside Administrator’s Hall which reads “stop discouraging victims from going to the police!”
2) In much, but not all, of the campus antirape movement, there is an impression that the police are actually “in cahoots” with the rapists and that the school’s in-house quasi-justice system is preferable to dealing with the formal justice system which the rest of society depends upon. I know of no cases where a campus antirape organization reached out to a local SVU to create better ties and deeper understanding of best-practices. If there is indeed such a case of this happening, then how come it hasn’t become a model for campus antirape organizations across the nation? Why isn’t the discursive emphasis around that kind of breakthrough?
3) The discourse insisting that there’s a “rape culture” is an implicit argument that campus rape isn’t a “justice” issue, it’s a “culture” issue. The argument is that men need to change their “culture.” High-visibility cultural “events” — like “Carry That Weight” — are needed to bring this cultural shift about, using cultural/social forces like public shaming. Victims shouldn’t go to the police; they should go to cultural media outlets like Jezebel.
2/15/2015 9:03 pm
BTW the previous comment is mine.
2/15/2015 10:48 pm
I’m struck by the parallel between the hysteria over “rape culture” moral panic today and the one over “ritual satanic child abuse” back in the 1980s and early 1990s. The common denominator seems to be the “believe the victims” meme and the idea that false accusations never happen.
I seem to recall that in the earlier moral panic, people asserted that “children never lie” about matters as grave as being alleged. And children’s stories were believed no matter how absurd (like covens of teachers exhibiting magical powers).
In the present day panic, we’re seeing something similar…the notion that someone would never lie about being raped and the willingness to believe accusers no matter how improbable their behavior after these supposed incidents.
2/16/2015 1:08 am
In debates i’ve had with college age feminists, i’ve brought up the role that radical feminism played in the Satanic Abuse Scares of the 80s. You can bet that not one of them had any idea what I was talking about.
There was a pretty good article published not too long ago in Spiked Magazine called ‘revisiting the Satanic Panic’ that dealt with the subject.
“But there was another source of socio-cultural fuel for the Satanic panic, and that came not from the right, but from the left, especially from certain strains of feminism. In many ways, this shouldn’t be a surprise. Child protection, as a burgeoning industry and ideology in the late 1970s and early 1980s, had always gone hand-in-hand with an elevated suspicion of so-called patriarchal society and its sexually violent underpinnings. Child protection, therefore, had assumed the appearance of a crusade, an attempt to root out the evils of patriarchy everywhere. Indeed, by the time of Susan Brownmiller’s Against Our Will (1975), patriarchy had come to be seen as being identical to biological males themselves. ‘By anatomical fiat, the inescapable construction of their genital organs, the human male was a predator and the human female served as his natural prey’, Brownmiller wrote.
Given its conviction that man was destined to be a predator, was destined to enact patriarchal violence, this wing of feminism was all too receptive to the idea of Satanic sex cults abusing children. Such was Satanic ritual abuse’s appeal that prominent feminist and co-founder of Ms magazine, Gloria Steinem, contributed money and public support to an abuse proponents’ group. Steinem was far from alone. As Alexander Cockburn, writing in Counterpunch, recalled: ‘Charges of perverse abuse of children seemed an inviting line of attack in the larger onslaught on patriarchy, sexual violence and harassment. Social workers and therapists - many of them feminists - became the investigators and effective prosecutors.’ Or as Debbie Nathan and Michael Snedeker argue in the definitive Satan’s Silence: Ritual Abuse and the Making of a Modern American Witch Hunt: ‘It is obvious that the anti-pornographers and victimologists are feminism’s main contributors to the ritual-abuse panic… Indeed, during the past decade, belief in ritual abuse has become so ensconced in this wing of feminism that the arrest, trial by ordeal and lifelong incarceration of accused women have occasioned hardly a blink from its proponents. They have remained silent as convicted mothers and teachers are sent to prison.’”
2/16/2015 2:59 am
Just idle curiosity, IntObs.
I’ve met people who put “John Doe, Ph.D. ABD” on their business card. Impressive, until you discover ABD means “all-but-dissertation”… and they are not, in fact, a Ph.D.
So I’m just wondering if “not a non-attorney” might be something similar.
2/16/2015 7:41 am
I-Roller -
What interests me is how a ‘non non-attorney’ (to use his own formulation) who admits he has no access to testimony and legal documentation specifically attached to this case believes and depends on accounts from other people who likewise have no access to ‘make’ his ‘case,’… it makes hearsay testimony look almost credible.
2/16/2015 7:50 am
If there were a way to exchange money on this blog, we could have some interesting wagers…
SE goes from being respectful and almost fawning when someone says something he thinks proves him right or otherwise agrees with him to being absolutely venomous in his disparagement of that same individual if they challenge him have the audacity to disagree with him overall.
Witness his treatment of Cathy Young. He went from making a big deal of signing his reply to her with ‘respectfully’ and ‘Standing Eagle’ to a vicious screed comparing her to David Brooks.
So it makes you wonder how long commenters like Pratt and Ryan will go from being a saint in his eyes to being the anti-Christ.
2/16/2015 8:11 am
P.S. SE’s behavior towards Cathy Young, given that she had already announced many comments ago that she was essentially abandoning commenting until she had more news, was the cheapest of cheap shots towards someone who he knew probably wouldn’t be reading the thread and thus not likely to defend themselves.
It brings to mind James Carville’s comment about Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama… play a game of algebra and change the names of the variables (not the contents of those variables) and you have the exact same result…
If Cathy Young gave SE one of her’s, Cathy would still have more balls than SE.
Also, apologies for the garbled text of my previous comment(s)…
2/16/2015 8:59 am
Pratt,
I agree with your comments about what should be the case, and will defer to your factual points about what the antirape movement is currently emphasizing. The police outreach is an excellent idea.
From my own perspective (a decade out of date), the paid professionals on campus were very strong on police involvement and eager to facilitate it. And I never met a college administrator who was anything but relieved at the prospect of a police investigation to take over when there was an assault allegation.
Of course, those are the professionals. Activists are a different matter….
To one aspect of your last point: I disagree that “justice” or “culture” is necessarily an either/or. It is important to address “culture” too if one has an interest in prevention — unless one believes in the magic power of deterrence when it comes to drunk, affluent and/or high-achieving 20-year-olds.
2/16/2015 9:07 am
Someone might like to enlighten SE that his stereotyping of ‘affluent and/or high-achieving 20-year-olds’ is just that… stereotyping - a popular trope without much factual basis behind it. There are numerous examples of those being accused of crimes like these who are decidedly non-affluent, and who are in colleges and universities only because of affirmative action - they certainly didn’t get there because of high achievement.
But I guess that makes me a racist to point out the factual…
2/16/2015 9:15 am
SE - Is your blatant stereotyping a case of jealousy?… you didn’t come from money, which you, in fairness, had no control over, and you weren’t a high-achiever, which you did?
It’s seems like you have a case of something akin to penis envy… stopping wasting your life and get over it.
2/16/2015 2:33 pm
It certainly is strange how the college feminist movement is portraying the typical violent rapist these days, as an overachieving, super wealthy, highly educated, northern European, attending an Ivy League School.
It is fascinating how anyone can possibly be so solipsistic, that they become that divorced from the realities of normal people in America.
2/16/2015 3:04 pm
I’m too much of an empiricist to follow SE into talking about a problem of ‘culture’ based on such muddy evidence. Non-random surveys with politicized questions are worse than useless, so the prevalence of rape really hasn’t been seriously studied.
Even postulating the prevalence is something like what activists claim, there is no data whatsoever on the number of rapists. Rates of victimization of 20% could jibe with 1 in 30 men being rapists, with an average victimization rate of 7. Given that activists say most rapes aren’t reported, it’s hard to see why someone who got away with it wouldn’t continue repeatedly. But you can also understand the backlash when 29 men who aren’t rapists are told that they need to change their ‘culture’.
I see the question of rape on campus as mostly an evidentiary problem rather than a culture problem. If rape is common, the best thing young women can do is game plan ways of creating evidence so that they’re ready to do so in the aftermath. to you. But ultimately it’s about making vengeance more certain and protecting your friends, so it’s worth it to do so.
SE, your disparagement of deterrence is odd to me. First off, I can’t see why the likelihood of being caught wouldn’t be a big factor here. But more importantly, most everyone believes that serial rape is a significant part of the problem, at whatever frequency each person believes the problem occurs. Deterrence before the fact is one thing, but 10 years in prison is going to have a damn serious effect on the ability of a rapist to rape another college freshman.
2/16/2015 5:35 pm
Prevention is important even if rape is uncommon.
Ms. Young says the correct number is perhaps one in 50 over the course of college. Okay. That means at Harvard graduation each year diplomas are given to FIFTEEN WOMEN who have been raped during college. Transpose it into other terms — students hit by cars next to campus if you like — and see how that fits with the idea that prevention is too much of a hassle and that men shouldn’t be bothered with programs to enhance deterrent effects and promote solicitations of clear consent.
Fifteen a year on just one campus. Why would activists not want to put energy into reducing that number?
“Ultimately it’s about making vengeance more certain.” I don’t agree with that, especially when the potential perpetrators and potential victims have been gathered into a place for a cultural education. There may be problems with any given program but it’s not foolish for activists to push for university prevention measures as well as incarceration when prevention fails.
2/16/2015 5:47 pm
ryan: If it were true that one in 30 men is a rapist as you suppose, with seven victims on average, you can be sure that I would not be part of any backlash against calls to change the rape culture.
I’d be out in front, manning the barricades, demanding a no-holds-barred, massive push to apprehend, try and incarcerate the 100+ million men worldwide who perpetrate these crimes.
The best statistics available, however, show that your supposition is wildly inflated. There ought to be zero rapes, but given that law-enforcement has limited resources and some of them are consumed by going after murderers and other criminals, I would think that the degree of attention dedicated by police and prosecutors to going after rapists is unlikely to change.
2/16/2015 6:47 pm
He didn’t say one in 30 was the case.
But please note that Ms. Young herself says one in 50 are probably victims during a certain window. Pretty similar.
2/16/2015 7:19 pm
SE..
Here is Jezebel explicitly discouraging campus rape victims from going to the police:
http://jezebel.com/why-reporting-to-police-isnt-the-solution-to-the-colleg-1578988324
Here is Columbia’s rape crisis counseling webpage, which says nothing about the desirability of going to the police:
http://health.columbia.edu/svr-rape-crisisanti-violence-support-center-0
You can also look through student activist websites, twitter pages, and facebook pages. No Red Tape and Carrying the Weight Together are examples. You won’t find any demands that university administrators direct student rape victims directly to the police. You won’t find any demands that universities reach out to local SVUs.
What you’ll find are demands for state and federal laws which incentivize universities to expel the accused without due process.
Regarding the culture/justice issue: this postmodern idea that two are inextricably linked or whatever might make sense in the abstract, but in practice it is precisely how Jezebel convinces itself that when it’s trashily gossiping about Fred Armisen’s bedside manners, it’s actually scoring points for “social justice.” Uh, no. Encouraging rape victims to go to the police (which you can see from that link is something Jezebel discourages) would be scoring points for social justice.
2/16/2015 7:19 pm
SE
Here is Jezebel explicitly discouraging campus rape victims from going to the police:
http://jezebel.com/why-reporting-to-police-isnt-the-solution-to-the-colleg-1578988324
Here is Columbia’s rape crisis counseling webpage, which says nothing about the desirability of going to the police:
http://health.columbia.edu/svr-rape-crisisanti-violence-support-center-0
You can also look through student activist websites, twitter pages, and facebook pages. No Red Tape and Carrying the Weight Together are examples. You won’t find any demands that university administrators direct student rape victims directly to the police. You won’t find any demands that universities reach out to local SVUs.
What you’ll find are demands for state and federal laws which incentivize universities to expel the accused without due process.
Regarding the culture/justice issue: this postmodern idea that two are inextricably linked or whatever might make sense in the abstract, but in practice it is precisely how Jezebel convinces itself that when it’s trashily gossiping about Fred Armisen’s bedside manners, it’s actually scoring points for “social justice.” Uh, no. Encouraging rape victims to go to the police (which you can see from that link is something Jezebel discourages) would be scoring points for social justice.
2/16/2015 7:33 pm
“One in 50″ are victims of what? Of rape? During what “window” — four years in college? Where did Young say that?
In the Slate article by Emily Yoffe, she cites a study based on the National Crime Victimization Survey.
So 0.6 percent of female college students reported some form of sexual assault. Including threats that never were carried out. Including unwanted touching, “stolen kisses”, and maybe even off-color jokes. Actual rapes will have been much fewer. Maybe one in a thousand female college students suffered one?
(Forms of sexual assault other than rape deserve to be dealt with, commensurate to the gravity of the offense, of course.)
(I can’t believe I’m actually talking to SE. Nothing good will come of it so I’ll shut up now and withdraw from the thread permanently.)
2/16/2015 7:35 pm
Rapists are like other elements of the population that engage in criminal and otherwise anti-social behavior… we don’t know what makes them behave the way they do anymore than we understand why psychopaths do the things they do. Explanations such as ‘men rape women because they hate them’ or ‘men rape as a means of exerting control over women’ are as useful in preventing rape as the explanation that ‘psychopaths don’t feel the same emotions as ordinary people’ is in preventing them from committing their crimes… which is to say that they aren’t. We don’t know how to reliably identify them ahead of time, and we don’t know how to cure them once we have identified them. Explanations such as those are more a description of the symptom than the root cause of the behavior.
Domestic abusers would seem to be a reasonable analogy. Every time they go to prison for it, they come out angrier than the time before. It’s entirely true that prisons don’t do much to help rehabilitate offenders, for which there is a variety of reasons, none of them good, but when you shuck it down to the cob, you have to know precisely what makes someone tick before you can change their behavior. If we really know the answers to these questions, how is it we have repeat offenders? And if we don’t have the answers, and until we do, sadly there is very little that we can do to reduce the frequency of these crimes in terms of prevention. So yes, it’s true - incarceration doesn’t rehabilitate, but for certain kinds of crime keeping someone away from the general public may seem to be an extreme preventive measure, but it’s the lessor of two evils.
If it is in fact true that so many rapists are serial rapists, and it seems like a reasonable premise that rape is a deeply rooted psychological issue that is more likely than not to be repeated, at the very least we should be more concerned with preventing rapists from raping new victims than we are with any notions of the ‘unfairness’ of locking rapists up until they are deemed to no longer be a danger… currently we seem to care more about the monetary costs to society of keeping dangerous offenders incarcerated, and we also seem to think that it’s more unfair to a rapist to keep them away from their potential victims than it is unfair to their needless victims. Go figure.
Education and prevention are as likely to prevent rape as a buying a lottery ticket is likely to provide the purchaser with unlimited retirement income. Is there really any male in a liberal democracy such as the U.S., Canada, England, etc., who doesn’t know that they shouldn’t rape women? And if we don’t know who the potential rapists among us are, anything short of segregating men and women anytime there aren’t chaperones available to prevent rape will only result in unacceptable restrictions on personal liberty without solving the problem.
We need to make sure that we have done everything we can to make the system fair to both victims and to those who are falsely accused. Unfortunately, it’s the nature of the world that there will always be true victims who mistakenly identify the wrong person as their assailant, and it’s also the nature of humans to seek simplistic solutions to incredibly complicated problems such as those situations, resulting in things like a victim’s word is unimpeachable — witness the radio station manager at Oberlin College who said that is doesn’t matter if a ‘victim’ is telling the truth or not…
Society has made huge strides in dealing with rape, which isn’t to say that we have done nearly as much as we could and should do… we need to do EVERYTHING we can while still respecting due process. A measure of our progress is that more and more women are willing to go public, and equally, that so many men, although perhaps not nearly enough, no longer regard women who have been raped as ‘damaged goods.’
Just as the poor will always be with us, rapists and rape victims will always be with us. We need to do everything we can to minimize those numbers with serious efforts, and not window dressing.
2/16/2015 7:44 pm
SE -
Can you explain to me how you reconcile trashing Cathy Young like a close-minded, imbecilic shill, with also pleading with people to treat her like Moses coming down the mountain with the tablets?
“Like David Brooks on his own topics, Ms. Young couches her analysis so it doesn’t seem as foolish and malicious and retrograde as the stylings of May and Maskirovka just now. But she is of their party, and Baranowski is just another such with a fetish for SVU police procedure.”
…and…
“But please note that Ms. Young herself says one in 50 are probably victims during a certain window.”
Just curious…
2/16/2015 7:48 pm
I-Roller -
Don’t go… you have some interesting and important things to say. SE’s whole modus operandi is to chase all those who he disagrees with so that the only ones left will be those who agree with him… even if it’s him talking to himself.
2/16/2015 7:53 pm
I’m having trouble re-finding the article where I saw Ms. Young say the real number is roughly 1 in 53. I think Emily Yoffe’s homework is excellent, and she arrives at a number like “32,500 assaults in 2012, or a 0.27 percent incidence,” for college women. That’s one in 400, which seems at least a little low compared to my sliver of experience.
But I don’t have much of a dog in the ‘prevalence’ fight; I just think prevention efforts are worth it if they have any good science-based chance of being effective. I’m pretty sure it’s not true that “rape is a deeply rooted psychological issue” — it usually arises from drunkenness as a prime factor.
Colleges should do their best to prevent the crime. And deterrence comes too late.
2/16/2015 8:10 pm
Ryan -
I think that you are making the mistake that a lot (most?) people make (myself included) when you say:
“First off, I can’t see why the likelihood of being caught wouldn’t be a big factor here.”
That’s an entirely rational view of what is an entirely irrational action.
If someone isn’t a rapist, the deterrent factor looms larger in our minds than it does in the minds of rapists. It seems reasonable to call rape a ‘crime of passion,’ even when it is premeditated, and as odious as it is to use passion in the same sentence as rape (I mean it in the sense of it being an uncontrollable urge, although in some cases it may be also a crime of opportunity).
I don’t think rape is like some other crimes where the perpetrators may well do some sort of cost/benefit analysis in their minds before deciding to commit the crime.
Years ago Forbes magazine had a story on Russian emigres who owned bars in the Far Rockaway section of Queens, NY (if memory serves). None of them had liquor licenses, and when the reporter asked if they weren’t worried about the consequences of being caught, they all laughed. Because buying an apple for a nickle and selling it for a dime was a capital crime in Russia, the notion of being fined a couple of thousand bucks or going to jail for a couple of months just didn’t compute.
Crimes like not having a liquor license are of a different kind than rape, and potential consequence may or may not have a deterrent effect… for crimes like rape and murder they almost certainly don’t.
2/16/2015 8:21 pm
SE -
I’ll engage you seriously for a moment… you say that ” I’m pretty sure it’s not true that “rape is a deeply rooted psychological issue” and that rape “usually arises from drunkenness as a prime factor” — I’m quoting you verbatim.
If that is so, how is it that a woman who is blind drunk cannot legally give consent, but a guy who is similarly drunk cannot use his drunkenness as a mitigating factor? That would seem to indicate a double standard resulting in unequal protection under the law.
I’m curious as to how you reconcile those two things. And to be clear, although I can’t, I don’t rule out that they can be… I just haven’t figured it out.
2/16/2015 8:22 pm
P.S. I think that you are letting rapists off the hook too easily by ascribing their behavior as a transient thing due entirely to having consumed too much alcohol.
2/16/2015 8:33 pm
Rich,
Can you blog again?
Jezebel, UVA, anything will do
2/16/2015 8:45 pm
Mitigation gets you ten years instead of twenty.
Also, doing harm is (because we are trying to have a society) qualitatively different from being harmed.
2/16/2015 9:24 pm
SE -
I’m not sure I understand completely your comment about mitigation. It really wasn’t the word that I wanted to use in the sense that I know it gets you ten instead of twenty, and I really wanted to say that a guy can’t use being drunk as any sort of defense, in whole or in part. So I get that what the word means…
Doing harm is the polar opposite of being harmed, not just qualitatively different, so I’m in agreement with you there. But if being so drunk means that a woman isn’t capable of making the decision to give consent, isn’t a man who is equally drunk thereby equally incapable of discerning right from wrong, or at the very least, capable of mistaking abject refusal from the non-serious refusal that is sometimes a part of the whole game of making out? Again, the same state begets two completely different states of responsibility depending solely on sex (men are almost always the aggressors in the case of rape), and which implies unequal treatment.
It also brings up the issue of personal responsibility. If a guy got drunk and started trying to dodge cars on the freeway, people would say “What was he expecting to have happen?” if he got run down. But change the scenario to where a woman who is drunk or stoned goes to a frat party where a bunch of drunk guys are watching porn and talking about women, and where she gets assaulted, and it’s an outrage against humanity to say she contributed to her own fate. In a perfect world, that would be the case — her state shouldn’t and wouldn’t matter — but we don’t live in a perfect world. By absolving them of all responsibility to take some measure of reasonable care for their own protection, we are in fact encouraging them to be reckless. Surely you wouldn’t argue that ‘sure, we know drunk guys are more likely to rape and dangerous to be around, but go ahead and have a good time… whatever happens won’t be your fault’?
Your view of rape as opposed to mine is interesting in the sense that in a way it mirrors the completely different views of combating terrorism. One view — typically the left — views it as nothing more than a police action involving mere criminals, albeit violent ones, while the other view — typically held by the right — views it as something that can only be conquered by war.
We have experience with prohibition, which ultimately didn’t prohibit much of anything except respecting of the law, and we have medical (scientific) proof that alcohol is an addictive drug, so it seems difficult to imagine that education and prevention will do much to curb the excessive use of alcohol.
But that doesn’t address the fact t
2/16/2015 9:27 pm
Oops…
I’m not sure what that last, partial line was going to say… please disregard.
2/16/2015 9:41 pm
and see how that fits with the idea that prevention is too much of a hassle and that men shouldn’t be bothered with programs to enhance deterrent effects and promote solicitations of clear consent.
The level of stupidity required to believe this an accurate assessment of anyone’s position is mind boggling.
2/16/2015 9:45 pm
I like freeways too, if you know what I mean, but a penis is not a car and can stop on a dime. Failure to use that brake gets you twenty to life.
2/16/2015 9:47 pm
Marshal,
I was reacting to Ryan’s statement that, assuming for the sake of discussion that 1 in 30 men is a rapist, “you can understand the backlash when 29 men who aren’t rapists are told that they need to change their ‘culture’.”
You can explain to me how I misread that statement.
2/16/2015 9:52 pm
A couple times, by the way, I have endorsed Harry Lewis’s book chapter on this topic. It was not in line with my predilections but I found it persuasive on the issue of how women should protect themselves.
2/16/2015 10:21 pm
Marshal -
I didn’t say that I thought that “prevention is too much of a hassle and that men shouldn’t be bothered with programs…promote solicitations of clear consent.” Unless I misunderstood your comment, you are twisting my words.
Again, for the record, one rape is one too many, as is one false accusation, and we should do everything we can to reduce the incidence of rape and ensure that the perpetrators are properly punished, and that the victims treated with respect and dignity and helped to the best of our ability.
Are we clear on where I stand?
I’m merely making the point that both prevention and education seem unlikely to have much meaningful effect on the prevalence of rape — in other words, it’s unlikely to be any sort of ‘magic bullet’ — not that we shouldn’t try to do whatever we can to prevent rape, and including any education and deterrence programs that will actually accomplish something beyond allowing people to stand up and beat their chests and say ‘Well, my heart is in the right place and my intentions are good…’ and that don’t infringe on the rights of and greatly inconvenience the vast majority of law-abiding citizens in order to try and control the bad behavior of a small minority of miscreants.
It’s absurd to think that there are many men who need only to be educated, and equally absurd to think that we need only to restrict access to an addictive drug better, when we have been miserable failures at controlling alcohol use in the past, and not to mention that the trend, rightly or wrongly is towards liberalizing other drug usage… what’s the guarantee that the ‘SE’s of the world won’t be saying twenty years down the road that rape is the result of people smoking too much pot?.
Actually, I take some of that back — it’s not absurd to think that there are many men who need to be educated about explicit and clear consent being required… there clearly are — it’s absurd to think that an education system that is failing so miserably at teaching the 3 R’s could teach them the difference between right and wrong or yes and no.
A large part of the problem is people who consider you to be part of the problem if you don’t subscribe 100% to how they view the problem and think it should be fixed. One wonders about their basic honesty and sincerity…
2/16/2015 10:30 pm
SE -
First you say that alcohol is the root cause of much of the rape problem (my paraphrase). The medical literature is pretty unanimous that alcohol both impairs judgement and affects reaction time. So your statement about the penis would appear to be at odds with both your original premise and medical science (the penis being for all practical purposes being disconnected from the brain, where according to medicine, judgement is formed, and the penis being widely understood to have a brain of its own, meaning no brains at all, when a male is sexually excited).
No surprise, I don’t find your arguments to be persuasive. And no need to respond… at this point I don’t think there is anything that you could say that I would find persuasive…
2/16/2015 10:34 pm
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n21/jenny-diski/diary
2/16/2015 11:01 pm
You can explain to me how I misread that statement.
You didn’t misread it. You lied about it, intentionally, because that’s how trolls amuse themselves.
2/17/2015 6:36 am
Marshal -
I think that I misread your comment and thought that it was directed at me… I apologize.
2/18/2015 10:40 pm
All in favor of banning SE, for sinking eaglet, say aye? He is a querulous bore, and really just seems to fill his time or her time, who know who or what this person is, by arguing points to argue them, with limited reasoning and/or facts to support their positions. This persons just seems to have so so logic, at best, and hence, it might be best just to ban them from the blog? All in favor, just note it. And, Richard, any chance of eliminating this person’s unhelpful presence? They really do not enhance the dialogue…….
2/19/2015 9:44 am
Stop th Madness -
Zero change of Richard banning him. See his post above at 2/10/2024 1:20 pm:
Hang in there, SE. Even when I (passionately) disagree with you, I welcome your comments here—the site wouldn’t be the same without you.
Richard is a free speech absolutist, I think, which I admire. The part I don’t get is Richard encouraging an obvious troll… he doesn’t have advertising, so it can’t be about the money (there is none), and it appears that there have been several serious commenters who decided SE’s nonsense wasn’t worth it and weighed anchor.
2/19/2015 7:54 pm
I wouldn’t ban SE either…I don’t agree with him about hardly anything relating to the case, but I don’t see him as a troll or anything else undesirable on this blog. He simply represents an opinion and does so with logic and reasonable decorum.
That’s the thing I like about this blog and a few others. In most places on the Internet, it would be impossible to discuss a major controversial event without people making hateful statements and equating people who they disagree with with being the equivalent of the Taliban. But despite the strong opinions everyone has had on Sulkowicz, I don’t think there’s been a downard spiral into nastiness.
2/20/2015 7:24 am
I second Maskirovka77. I do not think that SE should be banned. I have learned the most about this issue from Standing Eagle, Interested Observer, SPMoore8, IRoller, and Richard Bradley. That is not to diminish the input of other commenters, who definitely enhance the discussion. It is just that the aforementioned contributors to the blog, and the blog host himself, seem to follow the issue closely and have good insight into it. I don’t have time to follow it, except sporadically.
SE’s input has changed my thinking on one fundamental aspect: I no longer think that just referring these cases to law enforcement is the answer. Out and out credible allegations of rape, yes. (re, Vanderbilt) Those allegations must be dealt with by law enforcement. Some of the other accusations that might be considered sexual misconduct are more complex, however, and maybe those allegations are best handled by universities with stricter attention paid to due process. I would put Nungesser in that category. I don’t think he raped Emma, but he has a disturbing personality, from what I have read. He also has accusations lodged against him by four different people. I wouldn’t want my daughter to go on a date with him.
There are two camps developing here and elsewhere: those who say women never lie, and those who say women always lie. Neither assumption is true. Women, like men, sometimes lie. And some women make false accusations of rape. Some men also do actually rape women. So there it is.
2/20/2015 8:35 am
I also have evolved in my thinking. SE would not produce any research to back herself up when asked but I did some myself. I’ll share that and some other thoughts.
1) Banning anyone — absurd. Especially someone like SE who is always (almost always?) very polite, and who brings a contrarian viewpoint to the table.
2) Nungesser’s disturbing personality — I disagree with st above. In one case, he was in a year long, difficult relationship. Who knows what happened there?
In another, he (paraphrasing) “followed a girl upstairs, grabbed her, and tried to kiss her”. This sounds like a clumsy pass to me. This could easily describe a hand on her arm and leaning in for a smooch. He was rebuffed one presumes, and there are no reports that he took it further after that. (Notably, Emma’s parents described this as “rape”.)
Have we heard more about the third case? It appeared in the Jezebel article, and described a homosexual encounter. I am skeptical for a number of reasons until hearing more details and corroboration.
Also disagree with st on law enforcement. All allegations of rape, credible or not, should go to law enforcement. The “kissing” case is a different animal and can stay in the university IMO. But then a Senator should not allowed to call a citizen a “serial rapist” in public on the basis of it.
2/20/2015 9:30 am
Continuing…
3) My research has moved me to a more neutral stance on the exculpatory nature of the texts. I still think they are somewhat exculpatory, but not as much as I did. I read “There is no perfect victim” as saying that anything a alleged victim says can be explained away, and I don’t buy that. It is also true that not all reactions are equally probable. That said, the research shows that people will react in different and sometimes counter-intuitive ways, and while it was hard to match examples cited to the specific circumstances here, it was enough to convince me.
4) Another string of this research I followed because it was mentioned in the literature is false accusations. What the literature shows is higher than I expected. Without going into all the detail, the literature shows about a 7% incidence rate of false rape accusations (I am quoting the study that in my opinion used the most rigorous methodology). To determine a false rape accusation, it must have been determined to be maliciously false, either the accuser admitted such or (in only one case) the evidence was so overwhelming that the researcher determined that it was false. Evidence of absence rather than absence of evidence.
It does not inlclude cases where there wasn’t enough evidence to proceed, the accuser dropped the case, or cases where it was determined to not be rape but something other (I’m sure no comfort to the individual who did not commit a rape but is being investigated for one). I think it probable that there are more false/inapt rape accusations in this group than there are that can definitively be shown to be maliciously false.
The study is “False Allegations of Sexual Assualt: An Analysis of Ten Years of Reported Cases”, first author is Lisak.
2/20/2015 9:31 am
That’s me above obviously. Forgot to put my name in the box.
2/20/2015 10:26 am
Regarding the relative civility of this blog… I agree for the most part, and in spite of it perhaps appearing that I am among the ‘uncivil few’…
I try and be polite — more than just being civil to everyone. The reason that I make an exception for SE and am so harsh towards him is because he is the commenter here who is most guilty — both in the number of commenters he is vitriolic towards and the number of time he engages in ad hominem attacks.Witness his odious comparison between Cathy Young and David Brooks, occurring after she had announced she was largely quitting the thread until she had more hard news to contribute.
Certainly other people do so, although it is almost exclusively directed towards SE, and although many of the times it appears that it is more of a rhetorical ‘are you crazy’ kind of frustration with his dishonest brand of debating the issues on this blog than any real animus towards him most of time.
So long, story short, I respectfully disagree with the various commenters who are voicing an opinion that SE is well behaved.
st - Thanks for the kind words.
2/20/2015 12:55 pm
It’s funny, most people don’t consider David Brooks such a Mepistophelean figure as InterestedObserver does. As it happens, I do think he’s a weasel, but a lot of people — including the editorial board of the New York Times — don’t agree with me.
History and literature’s greatest monsters:
Adolf Hitler. Charles Manson. Iago. Benedict Arnold. Josef Stalin. David Brooks. Vidkun Quisling. Lee Harvey Oswald. Beelzebub.
Rolls off the tongue, wot?
2/20/2015 3:04 pm
DC. Regarding your last point, I think a case like this is a pretty good illustration of why rape statistics about false allegations are completely useless. Basically the methodology will list almost any rape allegation as “not false” where the accuser did not openly admit to police to maliciously lying about the rape. Furthermore if the accuser was not raped, but “something happened”, also the allegation is “not false”.
Under that standard, a case like Emma’s would almost certainly be put into the “not false” pile, even though any reasonable person would conclude that it most likely is. So would Jackie’s UVA rape claim for that matter. Also “not false”. So what use are these statistics apart from allowing people to falsely claim that 93% of rape claims are true?
2/20/2015 3:14 pm
SE -
Sorry to disappoint… David Brooks famously (infamously?) claimed to know in advance that Obama would be one of our greatest presidents because of the crease in his pants. Without any comment on the President being great or not so great, it just struck me as…. I don’t know… too much like the kind of thing you would say! Perhaps that’s why I never liked Brooks.
2/20/2015 3:29 pm
SE -
P.S. How do you know that I don’t agree with you about David Brooks?
Whether I do or not is beside the point… the point is your scurrilous attack on Cathy Young when she did nothing to deserve it, was not able to defend herself, and was always the model of civility when interacting with you — or anyone for that matter.
In case you don’t know, as a matter of policy the Times will not publish any letter to the editor about any of their columnists, even when they make factual errors and seemingly drug-induced statements that bear no relation to reality, so don’t waste your breath trying to complain about Brooks or any other columnist to them.
I must say that I am surprised that someone at the ‘paper of record,’ and a self-proclaimed liberal newspaper, would offend your sensibilities…
2/20/2015 3:30 pm
Fray:
I think that Jackie’s might be put into the false category. Emma’s certainly not. As far as ‘completely useless’, it is what it is. Yes, some may try to skew the results to say that 93% of rape claims are true but that’s not what the data or the researcher say.
I believe that for every false claim that can be proven as such using rigorous methodology, there must be more than one false claim that can’t be proven. Why do I believe that? A malicious false allegation is a very difficult thing to prove. Certainly they are not catching all of the false accusations. The question becomes what percentage are they catching.
I’m sure there are false accusations in the cases with not enough evidence, in the cases where the accuser withdraws from the process, and even in a small number of cases when the accused was found guilty.
And this is why I said it was higher than I thought. I would not have guessed so many could be proven, and then it becomes exercise in extrapolation to how many one thinks there actually are. Lisak didn’t touch on this at all and I thought it was a big omission. It’s a difficult subject to study and so the researchers have to do what they can.
2/20/2015 3:39 pm
SE -
You were the one who disparaged Brooks in your screed… any likening of Cathy Young to him is necessarily negative in that light.
Also, on another thread, you asked me if I knew about that Google thing. You might want to consult it… the correct spelling is ‘Mephistophelean.
‘
2/20/2015 4:05 pm
We regret the error.
2/20/2015 4:32 pm
Se -
Again, classic SE… some glib reply that may or may not be sincere and doesn’t address the point honestly or directly.
2/20/2015 9:19 pm
I still think that compared to the poisonous “discourse” I’ve seen on other blogs and news articles about controversial topics, SE’s comments are pretty civil.
2/20/2015 9:54 pm
maskirovka77 -
Depending on what something is being compared to, anything can be made to look relatively good or bad… Just because SE comes off looking ‘pretty civil’ compared to someone else does not necessarily mean that he actually is pretty civil… only relatively civil in comparison to others who are less so.
2/21/2015 5:00 am
Hey Richard, yesterday I posted a comment containing an Internet link. I don’t see it yet. Anything you can do about that?
5/21/2015 1:58 pm
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5/25/2015 1:16 pm
According to the police report, Nungesser “hit her [Sulkowicz] across the face, choked her, and pushed her knees onto her chest and leaned on her knees to keep them up.” He then “grabbed [Sulkowicz’s] wrists and penetrated her anally.”
Sulkowicz reported to police that she told Nungesser to stop, but that he did not. She “struggled with [Nungesser] and tried to push his arms away,” according to the police report, but “[Nungesser] kept going and suddenly stopped without ejaculating.”
—————————
I don’t mean to be crude, but setting aside for a moment the lack of supporting evidence, the damaging text messages, and the contradictions in Sulkowicz’ ever-changing story, how is it even possible to thrust your dick into someone’s anus and yet at the same time keep your weight on their legs, while also grabbing their wrists? Her description of the attack doesn’t sound plausible to me at all.
6/6/2024 2:45 pm
Given the national prominence of the ‘Mattress girl’ story (MG) and the Jackie story, it seems reasonable to draw close comparisons to learn more about the campus rape crisis.
-The stories span the continuum from ‘consensual sex - gone wrong’ to gang rape.
-The follow-up investigations range from a thorough campus investigation at Columbia to a campus poised to act but without identifiable rapists at UVA. -We know a lot about MG who is still publicly calling for further action while Jackie remains hidden
-In both stories, there are journalists and bloggers who have ended up polarized supporting either the alleged rapists or the victim. Both refer to studies that either claim institutionalized rape occurs or that college women are less likely to experience rape or sexual assault
-Clearly some of the journalists followed sound journalistic methods, while others ignored these methods
-There is an identifiable alleged assailant in the MG story and a nameless group of privileged fraternity brothers who the alleged rapists in the Jackie story
-despite the national scrutiny and the resources of the campuses, media and police, the alleged rapists have not found to be responsible or guilty in any way
-Intoxication by drugs or alcohol were not responsible for the circumstances in either story. In the Jackie story, there was an insidious plan to commit a gang rape that may have involved alcohol consumption during the alleged attack. In the MG story, the victim and the accused were engaged in an intimate act (gone wrong) that started off with some degree of consent but was not fueled by intoxication. But the factor so frequently involved with rape and sexual assault on campuses is almost always intoxication.
-there is some reason to believe that neither event could have been prevented by enlightenment, advocacy or threat of legal punishment because the evidence now suggests that neither event involved an actual rape or sexual assault.
Can we conclude that campuses have a problem with rape and sexual assault? Yes.
Does the problem arise from men preying on defenceless women? The unraveling evidence from recent cases in the media spotlight does not support this view. Evaluation of rape statistics are still in flux, but women appear safer on most campuses.
Are many allegations of rape and sexual assault associated with combination of the hook-up culture and intoxication (binge drinking, casual drug use) on most campuses? let’s re-start the discussion here