Some Thoughts on “Discrepancies”
Posted on December 10th, 2014 in Uncategorized | 181 Comments »
Last Friday, Rolling Stone put out a statement backing off Sabrina Rubin Erdely’s story, “A Rape on Campus,” and the account of its protagonist, a young woman named Jackie.
“There now appear to be discrepancies in Jackie’s account,” the magazine said.
That was an artfully chosen term. The magazine didn’t know if Jackie had lied to them or misremembered what happened to her; the magazine couldn’t really say for sure if anything at all had happened to Jackie.
Hence the use of the term discrepancies; it is a vague and legalistic word that can mean very little or an enormous amount. And people on both extremes of the discussion about Jackie’s story have tried to define it.
Mostly from the right, some observers believe that the term “discrepancies” suggests that nothing happened to Jackie; that she made the whole thing up. Some websites have alleged—without a hint of proof, as far as I can tell— that Jackie has a history of making up rape allegations. These are the same folks who are livid with Rolling Stone for not holding Jackie to the highest evidentiary standards. I certainly understand the criticism, but some consistency would seem to be in order.
On the other side, the victims’ advocacy wing, there are people who keep writing about “discrepancies” as if they are by definition trivial.
The context is usually something like this: “Just because there are inconsistencies in Jackie’s story does not mean that it isn’t mostly true. So what if she got the date wrong, or the name of the fraternity? Something happened to her.”
To these people I would say, let’s not forget what Jackie’s original story was: a premeditated gang rape; nine men in a pitch-black room; rape by seven of them, the last with a beer bottle; three best friends who discouraged her from reporting the rape for fear they’d never be invited to fraternity parties.
Even if there are “discrepancies” in Jackie’s story, we are still left, frankly, with a fantastical story. The argument thus becomes: So what if she got the name of the fraternity wrong? That doesn’t disprove that she was the victim of a premeditated gang rape in a blackened fraternity room by seven men!
“So what if it didn’t happen just the way she said it? She was still forced to perform oral sex on five men!”
Like this writer for the Huffington Post, who says, “Just Because Rolling Stone Got Jackie’s Story Wrong Doesn’t Mean It Is a Hoax.”
Or this writer for the International Business Times: “Why ‘Discepancies’ in Rolling Stone Rape Story Don’t Mean ‘Jackie’ Is Lying.”
Yet the forced oral sex scenario is also an incredible story that, while it could be true, must be viewed with some skepticism.
For me the challenge has always been: How do you get from something that seems plausible—a rape at a fraternity—to forced oral sex around a circle of five or gang rape by seven men? The leap from the former to the latter does not require simply getting a few details wrong; it involves the invention of dramatic and specific scenarios.
And that doesn’t suggest “discrepancies”—again, Rolling Stone’s term to explain things just not adding up—but “fabrications.” You can’t exaggerate or misremember your way to gang rape. It either happened or it didn’t.
Which brings me to a Washington Post story by T. Rees Shapiro, just posted about an hour ago, which, I think, is going to have an enormous impact.
Rees interviews Jackie’s three friends—the three friends whom, we now know, Sabrina Rubin Erdely did not even try to interview—and they tell a wildly different story of that night than Rubin Erdely recounted in her article.
In their first interviews about the events of that September 2012 night, the three friends separately told The Post that their recollections of the encounter diverge from how Rolling Stone portrayed the incident in a story about Jackie’s alleged gang rape at a U-Va. fraternity. The interviews also provide a richer account of Jackie’s interactions immediately after the alleged attack, and suggest that the friends are skeptical of her account.
It gets worse for Jackie—and Sabrina Rubin Erdely, who now appears to have lied when she said that “Randall” would not speak to her “out of loyalty to his frat.” (Randall tells the Post that Rolling Stone never contacted him—and that he would have spoken to Rubin Erdely if she had. Rubin Erdely, if you had a career left—now you don’t.)
But here’s where the plot really thickens:
[The three friends] said there are mounting inconsistencies with the original narrative in the magazine. The students also expressed suspicions about Jackie’s allegations from that night. They said the name she provided as that of her date did not match anyone at the university, and U-Va. officials confirmed to The Post that no one by that name has attended the school.
The narrative they tell is a bit confusing, and I won’t recount it here, but let me be blunt:
It is getting very hard not to think that Jackie has not invented much or most of this story out of whole cloth.
It it also getting very hard not to think that Sabrina Rubin Erdely may have made up some crucial details of her article to fit her political agenda.
In short: This may be a situation where both the writer and the subject of the story have lied.
If you thought this was messy before, it’s about to get much, much worse. We are way past “discrepancies” now.
181 Responses
12/10/2024 7:31 pm
You are right about what this story means in connection with Jackie. It is a nuclear bomb.
Not clear what you mean about Erdely. I thought she was toast already.
12/10/2024 7:34 pm
The thing about “discrepancies” is if there is uncertainty about WHO did it, WHERE it happened, and even WHAT happened, there is no ground for empirical verification, which by necessity leads to the insight: Well, maybe nothing happened.
Meanwhile, ascribing all of these different “discrepancies” to PTSD or trauma creates a ready made defense against any future allegations of sexual assault, does it not? “Your honor, the plaintiff cannot be believed because it is common knowledge that victims of sexual assault are unreliable witnesses”? The entire approach does more harm than good.
And, agreed. The latest WaPo story is devastating, and also implies for the thoughtful reader exactly what did happen, and why.
12/10/2024 7:37 pm
That Post piece - if it’s accurate (again IF) - is devastating to Ms. Erdely. If true, her career is over unless she was being tricked into something. Even then, her failure to look into the story indicts her. To a lesser degree.A sort of journalistic misfeasance and not malfeasance.
At this point, however, with so much in the air it’s probably wise not to make any definitive judgments.
12/10/2024 7:38 pm
To tell the truth, it was very hard from the very beginning not to think Erdely invented a LOT of stuff… no one that experienced and with formal training can be THAT naive or that negligent..
I don`t doubt she was a serious and diligent professional one day. But I bet when she started writing about these sensitive topics, she started to get make up a little stuff and went totally unchecked because no one wants to be a denialist.
Then she started to get more and more confident making things up and was always getting away with it…
So she was pretty confident that this story would go 100% unchecked and she would get away with it again… she wanted it to be BIG so she wasn`t shy to make up a of stuff and to ignore basic diligences..
The result? Game over for her career.
12/10/2024 7:40 pm
Richard, one request:
Can you make a detailed analysis about Erdely`s story about rape in the military??? That story smells a lot too. I would like to read your opinion on that.
12/10/2024 7:44 pm
The implication from the WP story to me is that Erdely fabricated quotes.
12/10/2024 7:44 pm
Props to you Richard for breaking this thing wide open in the beginning. I think it’s become much more bizarre than anyone imagined. Based on the WaPo article, it seems as though Jackie initially created this fake date in order to make her friend jealous. But why go to the lengths of faking a rape and the traumatic impact? To win his sympathy? And then she just went along with it for 2 years while attending rape support groups? I hope some more information comes out about this because there is still something missing.
Also, are more people now questioning the accuracy of Erdely’s older stories?
And what do you think all this is going to now mean for RS? How many heads are going to roll over this debacle?
12/10/2024 7:47 pm
Once one separates the well reported facts in the Post article from the opinions of people that something must have happened it’s really hard not to conclude “Jackie’s” story is anything but a complete fabrication. The discrepancies include not just one man who never went out with her but now a second one who doesn’t check out.
This is going to end up being a story about a young lady (Jackie) who went way, way too far in trying to attract the attentions of a young man (Randall). Sad for all involved.
12/10/2024 7:48 pm
What number did those text messages come from? Who owned the phone? That’s the last question. After that, I predict self-serving excuses from a few journalists… 99% of whom are so wedded to whatever infantile political stance is currently fashionable, that they can’t see what is in front of their faces.
12/10/2024 7:51 pm
Wow!
My working theory had been that Jackie went on a date with a guy well out of her league and that he used this disparity in sexual marketplace value to get easy sex from her (hinting he would have a relationship with her). I supposed that either he tried to get his friends involved just to show off or alternatively, just after sex, had made it clear to Jackie that she had been used and that was their last date. And to cover her shame, she had created the rape story.
It seems the truth is that Jackie was one step ahead and she herself invented the upperclassman, etc. to get “Randall” jealous.
All I can say is that Randall must have a very well-tuned psycho-detector. Just think if he had fooled around with Jackieand then dumped her? He would be sitting in prison right now on a false rape charge. Dude dodged a bullet.
12/10/2024 7:54 pm
Is my understanding of the implications of the friends’ story correct: that Jackie, before September 28, used a second phone to text with the friends (using pictures of someone from her high school) in order to make “Randall” jealous? Seems pretty damning.
But then if so it’s sort of hard to explain the one consistent detail which everyone agrees on - that she changed her bahavior for months and seemed depressed - unless she really had the forsight to know that someone like Erdely would come along some day.
12/10/2024 7:55 pm
@Steve: I agree, that’s what it is starting to sound like, as far as the events of 28 Sep 12 are concerned, and it makes me blush for her sake just to think of it. The only other possibility is that five other guys managed to assault her that night, by coincidence. But that also doesn’t make any sense. So we are left with the possibility of no sexual assault, or else some other sexual assault at some other time.
Five guys ….. I hope there isn’t one in Charlottesville.
12/10/2024 7:55 pm
As Jackie emerges as an obviously disturbed person from BEFORE any supposed rape, Erdely’s malpractice is exposed as completely off the charts. Even the slightest bit of reporting would have shown this was not a credible story. Even a smidge.
12/10/2024 7:57 pm
Matt: If the Catfishing explanation is correct, she would have gotten depressed because she was in love, and the object of her affection wasn’t coming around, and she was failing in her classes, and so on. I mean, I’m a guy, but I remember what it was like to be in love when I was that age.
12/10/2024 7:59 pm
@Fabricio I second your suggestion. Just read it now and the victim’s story is presented in EXACTLY the same way in this story. All of the “quotes” from the JAG and the nurse from the event are actually, if you read carefully, completely relayed by the victim. There is nothing in the story that indicates Erdely ever talked to any of these people.
12/10/2024 7:59 pm
I’m most surprised at RS because even putting aside a damaged source and an overly ambitious reporter they still should have flagged this piece.
Matt Taibbi spoke out recently about how arduous the fact checking is at RS. I get how a bad decision was made to not even contact the men who Jackie accused. But it appears NOTHING was fact checked here.
So, either the writer fooled the fact checker in some way. OR, the leadership of Rolling Stone decided that they would forgo their usual tough fact checking and publish this piece solely based on one source’s claims. If that’s the case it’s the craziest thing of all in my opinion.
12/10/2024 8:01 pm
“It is getting very hard not to think that Jackie has not invented much or most of this story out of whole cloth. ”
I thought that from the beginning (as I said in the tenth comment to your original post, yo, braggin), and suspected Erdely was lying as well.
But here’s my question: why is the Post being so mealy-mouthed? These aren’t discrepancies, which assumes a set of facts. The reporters are treating Erdely’s story as a fact base with evidence to be tested and then hmm, all these puzzling discrepancies that don’t add up.
These are contradictions. There were never any facts introduced at any point in the story. Jackie and Erdely’s assertions are being flatly contradicted by the very people they both claim, without evidence, as witnesses and secondary sources.
As just one example:
“In their first interviews about the events of that September 2012 night, the three friends separately told The Post that their recollections of the encounter diverge from how Rolling Stone portrayed the incident in a story about Jackie’s alleged gang rape at a U-Va. fraternity.”
No, the three friends flatly say that Jackie’s account is not what happened and that Erdely misrepresented their willingness to be interviewed.
The Post should stop quibbling and say, frankly, that every single aspect of both women’s stories has been contradicted by their reporting.
12/10/2024 8:03 pm
@SPMoore8 Right, except the story from the three friends (interviewed separately according to the reporter) is that “Jackie” said the “boy who went to high school with her but didn’t attend UVA and wasn’t anywhere near it on the night in question” participated in the event. There’s no way to believe that’s true at this point.
12/10/2024 8:04 pm
Richard - Thank you for your writing on this issue. You are my go to source for clarifying the questions and issues involved.
12/10/2024 8:05 pm
Body cameras for all college students.
At least until we figure out what the heck is going on on campuses.
And I’m not sure I’m kidding.
12/10/2024 8:26 pm
Let the recriminations begin!
12/10/2024 8:26 pm
It’s turning into a cross between “Gone Girl” and “Catfishing.”
12/10/2024 8:28 pm
@fabricio Re: The Erdely article on military rape. Similar in structure to the “Jackie” story this one pegs the overall theme of a rape culture in the military to a compelling individual story. In this case, that of PO Blumer. Also similar to the “Jackie” article, PO Blumer’s story is told entirely through her eyes and recollection. Here is a list of people who are “quoted” or whose actions are described ENTIRELY by the victim (as with the “Jackie” story there is zero indication that Erdely ever contacted any of them to confirm any part of PO Blumer’s account):
The “some friends” who went to the bar with her
The 3 Army guys who assaulted her
The Master-at-Arms who got her out of jail after her DUI arrest
The 6 members of her chain-of-command who met her that morning
The JAG lawyer who interviewed her
The nurse at the hospital
The Sailor who is quoted as saying people were talking about PO Blumer
The “colleagues who whispered about her behind her back”
The Superior on-board ship who made derogatory comments about her
The unnamed person who is quoted as accusing her of making up a rape
The therapist an off-base crisis center
The NCIS agent
Again, the article makes no mention of contacting any of these people. I had read this story previously and never noticed it was told completely from PO Blumer’s recollection/viewpoint. Thank you Richard for teaching me a bit about how to read a story like this more critically.
12/10/2024 8:29 pm
Don’t be so quick to write SRE off. Stays out of the limelight a couple years, re-emerges with an Oprah or Katie Couric interview where she “confesses” that she herself was raped in college, so Jackie’s story resonated with her *so much* because she had the same experience — anyway the big picture about colleges not doing enough is still true, not to mention victim-shaming. College tour ensues, speaking to advocacy groups. Down the road, a book about rampant sexual assault in the military, or maybe a major sports league. Great reviews of course, maybe a vague reference about how she was lied to by Jackie so many years ago… use your imagination…
However it goes, I think we’ll hear from SRE again.
12/10/2024 8:31 pm
But here’s my question: why is the Post being so mealy-mouthed?
I second this question.
12/10/2024 8:38 pm
I don’t think the WP is being mealy-mouthed its fairly easy to connect the dots here.
12/10/2024 8:40 pm
@NFL Why would any publication take the risk in publishing another story by SRE? After all of this, nobody will want to touch her. Look at Stephen Glass….though if I’m not mistaken he did eventually write another article for RS after his fall from grace…ironically.
As for colleges not doing enough, I’d refer you to Emily Yoffe’s recent article on Slate which details the overreaction of many colleges where due process is a secondary preoccupation. She highlights a few stories where male students have had their lives ruined after false rape allegations: http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/12/college_rape_campus_sexual_assault_is_a_serious_problem_but_the_efforts.html
12/10/2024 8:42 pm
I second what John said.
12/10/2024 8:45 pm
For a window into what is going on in colleges (and high schools) check yik yak.
12/10/2024 8:47 pm
Thanks to Richard for the continued coverage. I enjoy objective information with evidence provided.
Rape is an issue in Higher education just and it is for non students but should be handled the same in both instances, by properly trained law enforcement. My example for both points is the 24NOV14 Gang rape at William Paterson University. The police investigated and quickly prosecuted based on evidence.
Maybe SRE should do a second article on this rape….
12/10/2024 8:48 pm
@Steve
Good points.. I think it is completely fabricated..
So we got to the point we got ask: Is she a pathological liar? I mean, I am truly asking.. because you see her twitter account, it is all about how you do good journalism.. and she talks a lot about Stephen Glass..
I even found this article she wrote about Glass: http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/0104/0104arts02.html
Richard kind of suggested but didnt make it quite clear.. but he said that Randall (the fake name of one of Jackie’s friends) is Glass’ middle name..
Maybe she has a pathological relationship with him… Maybe she wanted to outdo him.. I dont know and I am not joking..
12/10/2024 8:51 pm
Richard,
I think you missed one possibility. If Jackie could have invented this rape story, and made up a supposed rapist with pictures and everything, it seems possible she also invented these 3 “friends” of hers. In which case Erdely probably contacted these sockpuppet friends of hers who backed up Jackie’s story that they did not want to talk. This is pretty easy if the “contact” was email or text messages. I am not sure Erdely bothered to call and talk to these people.
If that is the case, Jackie conned UVa, Rolling stone, Erdely and all her friends.
It is not certain Jackie did any of it, but this possibility must be considered before damning Erdely.
12/10/2024 8:56 pm
That’s an interesting angle rv.
However, its easy to check the origin of emails through a full header check, just takes a few seconds. Doing that would have easily detected something suspicious if all the IP addresses were the same.
12/10/2024 8:59 pm
Question: Should Jackie still enjoy the anonymity of a sexual assault victim, or should she be held accountable for her hurtful lies?
12/10/2024 9:02 pm
at this point, I would have no problem with mainstream media naming her. What more would have to happen for this to be acceptable?
Washington Post and others are probably just hoping she names herself in some apologetic press release so they can avoid the issue entirely.
Erdely needs to come of hiding and own up to whatever her role was in this. The silence is deafening.
12/10/2024 9:03 pm
This is the best version for the facts I could get:
“Seriously people. Nobody can infer what happened here? Assuming the statements of the three friends are accurate, it’s pretty damned obvious what the facts are. Jackie had an unrequited crush on Randall. To get his attention she made up a “competitor” and set up a separate account that supposedly belonged to the upperclassman, but was just her account under an alias. Look at the lame comments from the supposed chemistry about how upset he was about some 1st year competing for her affections, not to mention the photos of somebody who had gone to the same high school as jackie. The assault allegations were just the next step in her unbalanced plan to win Randall’s affections, this time through pity. As she constructed her story the fabrications ultimately became delusions. All anyone has to investigate is who controlled the phone number that belonged to the phantom upperclassman.”
So Jackie is a pathological liar…
The real question is: Is Sabrina Erdely also a pathological liar?She seems to have a thing for Stephen Glass and her other stories (as shown by Steve) are VERY suspicious
12/10/2024 9:04 pm
As an attorney, let me tell you this, most everybody lies and trying to figure out why will drive you nuts. “Cui Bono?” Is only the starting point. And that classic question may explain the author of the piece. But for the subject, it’s hard to follow those kind of dark mental twists and turns. A lot of harm has been done and the making of amends needs to start now.
12/10/2024 9:07 pm
From the beginning, I assumed confidentiality laws prevented Dean Eramo from saying anything about her conversations with Jackie. So even though Eramo was never quoted, I didn’t have a problem with that. But now I am questioning whether Jackie ever reported anything to her. Is it possible that the university didn’t take action to report a rape, because, you know, no rape was ever reported? Maybe Jackie told her mom and her friends that she went to the dean, but actually never did? Or spoke with Eramo but didn’t describe a rape?
SRE has insisted the “real story” here is the school’s response. I would hate for that whole premise to fall apart…
12/10/2024 9:08 pm
Re: the Post’s “mealy-mouthed” treatment…their tone and treatment are 100% correct. By framing the story the way they did, they are not betraying any pre-conceived notions about what the truth is, in contrast with the RS crew. They trusted readers to examine the facts as they were presented and draw their own conclusions. And judging from the conclusions from most posters here and my own, they seem pretty clear.
12/10/2024 9:11 pm
^^^ Agreed. Readers can connect the dots.
12/10/2024 9:12 pm
UVA’s original statement confirmed that something was reported to them, but it was worded very precisely to indicate that certain unspecified aspects of the story in RS were new to them.
I’ll see if I can dig up the original release.
12/10/2024 9:18 pm
From the original UVA press release back on 11/19:
“The article describes an alleged sexual assault of a female student at a fraternity house in September 2012, including many details that were previously not disclosed to University officials. I have asked the Charlottesville Police Department to formally investigate this incident, and the University will cooperate fully with the investigation.”
https://news.virginia.edu/content/important-message-president-sullivan-addressing-sexual-misconduct
12/10/2024 9:24 pm
@fabricio Re: Erdely article on military rape culture
OK, this is really bothering me now. Here’s a link for those who don’t want to google:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-rape-of-petty-officer-blumer-20130214
Here’s what I notice. PO Blumer was in a bar with “some friends” and 3 Army guys bought her a shot. Then she woke up in a jail cell having been arrested for DUI. She asserts she was drugged and raped.
There is no accounting whatsoever as to what happened between the two places (bar and jail) Where was the bar? Where was her home? Where was she arrested? What did her friends see? Where did the rape occur? In the bar? In the parking lot? Did anybody in the bar notice anything? Was she arrested for DUI on a route that would indicate she’d been taken somewhere else?
Other than the fact that “it dawned on her”, what proof at all is offered that PO Blumer was sexually assaulted?
12/10/2024 9:31 pm
Ok, this is really bothering me now. I encourage everybody to read this story:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-rape-of-petty-officer-blumer-20130214
Besides the problems I highlighted above, ask yourself this question. What happened between the time the “Army guys” bought PO Blumer a drink and when she woke up in jail. Other than the fact she was arrested for DUI and PO Blumer’s assertion that she’d been “roofied and raped”.
What did her friends see? What did the Army guys say? What did other people in the bar see? Where was she raped? In the bar? In the parking lot? Somewhere else? If so, where was she arrested in relation to the bar and her normal route home?
Exactly zero of these questions are asked or answered in this article.
12/10/2024 9:33 pm
If, in fact, Jackie made the whole thing up or embellished the truth, it is possible that she actually believes her own story.
The Post implies that she was just trying to make a boy jealous. So she role plays for some time and eventually starts to believe her own story, which would explain the sudden changes in behavior, joining support groups, etc.
Regardless of Jackie’s truth this mess is still all on Erdely, which is very sad for real victims of rape and those falsely accused.
12/10/2024 9:34 pm
Does anyone else astonished by the fact that the original RS article is still up on the their website?
12/10/2024 9:39 pm
John,
I don’t believe Jackie was clever enough to spoof a U-Va email address. One possibility is this..
Jackie:Don’t talk to my rapists.
Erdely:OK, what about your 3 friends.
Jackie:I don’t think they will talk.
Erdely:I insist.
Jackie:Ok, here are their email ids : [email protected], [email protected] and [email protected].
Jackie then runs home and registers these 3 emails, or she probably had them registered at some point during the multi-day interview process.
Then Erdely emails [email protected] and [email protected] says “I don’t want to talk, my brothers will be unhappy”. [email protected] says “Jackie was raped and I saw it, but Randall doesn’t want me to talk”. etc. etc.
I don’t think headers will reveal any of it - all the emails will show to have been sent from U-Va system if you get ahold of Google’s records and they all probably fall in one block.
I can imagine either Jackie or Erdely lying horribly, but two people thinking that they can get away with such lies seem unlikely… Though if Erdely was really gullible, she may not even have bothered to email anyone at all..
12/10/2024 9:42 pm
Apologize to all for the double post.
12/10/2024 9:44 pm
@John - I’m not surprised the article is still up. The print version is out there en masse…having it on the web site allows RS to attach the disclaimer to it.
12/10/2024 9:49 pm
When the initial Rolling Stone article appeared online, my first thought was that this might be a real life case of the plot of “The Wire: Season 5″ where Jackie is Jimmy McNulty and Erdely is Scott Templeton. This seems to be increasingly likely as more and more facts come to light.
12/10/2024 9:50 pm
They could keep the disclaimer which actually now calls for an update and ditch the article. Publishers will pulp books they know to contain false information of potentially serious consequence.
12/10/2024 9:51 pm
@John: I have wondered that as well. They seem to saying, even though Jackie’s story isn’t true, we stand by our assertion that a “rape culture” is running rampant on college campuses.
12/10/2024 9:55 pm
Anyone still clinging to the “discrepancies” angle can now let go. The entire “she had the wrong fraternity” argument was ridiculous anyway. Any first-year attending a date function at a fraternity -spending three hours to get ready- knows the fraternity name. I know to outsiders all fraternities are the same but not when you’re a student. You don’t say “I went to a fraternity tonight” the normal context is “I was at Phi Psi”, “I was at Chi Phi”, etc.
I just went back and re-read the article with a mindset of “this is complete bullshit” instead of “this is a horrible rape” and it makes a difference. A premeditated gang rape with the escape clause for the assailants a bloody, disoriented, girl turned loose in their house with the hope/expectation/prayer she would find her way out of crowded party via an unknown staircase not seen by anyone? What happens if she takes the main staircase? An incredible risk considering this is the difference between prison, expulsion, and disgracing the family name (not insignificant for many of these guys). Again, this is not some drunken situation that got out of hand. This was supposedly preplanned. And this happens every year as part of the initiation process? No.
Anyway, I’m done. Anything else to be said is an attempt to find truth in fiction.
12/10/2024 10:01 pm
Erdely - If you look at her website, she tends towards the sensationalistic (http://www.sabrinaerdely.com/archives.html). I second (or third or fourth) the comments above that other stories may not be as true as originally thought. It would be great for someone with more time than I have to do a fact check of the more grandiose tales she tells.
Jackie - If we assume the latest Washington Post reporting is true (and they have been good so far), story is classic although her actions are not. Girl (Jackie) likes boy (Randall) more than he likes her. He rebuffs her advances. She tries to get his attention by making him jealous and/or making her seem more desirable (cute upperclassman who likes her). However, here things move from classic to troubled. Upperclassman is made up, something her friends seem to have felt intimations of at the time (going so far as to contact him directly and check a database of students). She goes further to get Randall’s attention, making up a horrific event to try to get him to “save” her, asking that he stay the night with her. She is by Randall’s account demonstratively upset in a way that he has never seen before or since. She withdraws from social contacts except the ones that further legitimize her story and her story becomes more extreme over time.
If we assume this scenario is true, the behavior is consistent with the cluster B personality disorders (anti-social, borderline, histrionic, narcissistic), as is the inability to back off the story despite now compelling evidence of its fabrication. This really just makes the whole thing sad for everyone.
And truly (if new accounts are to be believed), Erdely seems the same, with a desire to get what she wants (recognition, attention and career advancement), without hewing to accepted social mores (and journalistic standards) regarding honesty. Which as previously stated may put her in a class with Stephen Glass, James Frey, etc.
For a compelling book demonstrating how far people can take these deceptions, read The Adversary. For those with a more pop culture bent, The Talented Mr Ripley and Catch Me if You Can describe the same personality disorder cluster.
12/10/2024 10:01 pm
In the meantime, only a few minutes before the latest Washington Post piece this afternoon (which seems to go have conclusive evidence of a hoax), CNN politico Sally Kohn published “Rape Culture? It’s Too Real” in which she casts aspersions on anyone who may have doubted Jackie’s story and claims “we live in a society where rapists are given the benefit of the doubt”. It’s on CNN. I wonder if she’ll be apologizing tomorrow.
12/10/2024 10:07 pm
If SRE made up the most sensational parts of the story how did she know it would get past the world’s greatest fact-checker? My guess is she’s done it before and the fact-checker cheered her on. I know there are other stories by SRE that people familiar the truth think she’s invented facts.
On the other hand Jackie has supposedly claimed post-Friday that the story in RS is essentially true.
Who knows how much of the story is true and who is responsible for what.
One thing I know for a fact though is that if the truth is that Jackie had to orally service five frat boys it’s not rape because of Bill Clinton. The frat boys can claim they’ve never had sexual relations with Jackie. A lot of feminists cheered when Clinton claimed sexual relations included giving oral sex but not receiving oral sex.
12/10/2024 10:14 pm
@MU78 SRE didn’t “make up” the story. She sold it as “told by the victim” to a group of people who believe in the maxim that you must believe the victim. See my previous posts about SRE military rape story.
The fact checking went like this.
Victim says this is what happened.
Therefore it is true.
Facts check.
12/10/2024 10:16 pm
Re: the Post’s “mealy-mouthed” treatment…their tone and treatment are 100% correct. By framing the story the way they did, they are not betraying any pre-conceived notions about what the truth is, in contrast with the RS crew.
The Post’s coverage has bettayed either bias or cowardice. Both Paul Farhi and Rees Shapiro failed to ask interviewees hard questions, obvious followups, in their initial reporting. They’ve continued in background grafs to treat things as facts that have not been established.
12/10/2024 10:17 pm
So Jackie invents a sockpuppet using Facebook photos of a hot guy in high school who never talked to her … then has him texting her friends as a junior chemistry student who likes her, but she’s not interested ’cause she has the hots for “Randall”, who has rebuffed her.
Then when she finally goes on a date with the chemistry student, he turns out to be a RAPIST. Eeeek!
So she calls Randall and two other friends in hysterics at 1am, asking to be comforted. They do - and want her to call the police. But she never manages to win Randall’s affections.
I think we know how this story ends.
There is more at my Twitter account — ‘Daily Bail’
12/10/2024 10:27 pm
Thanks again for your ongoing work on this story. The only way for the issue of sexual assault to be addressed is with the truth, not ideological fabrications.
I think this sentence is not correct: “It is getting very hard not to think that Jackie has not invented much or most of this story out of whole cloth.”
I think the second “not” should be deleted.
12/10/2024 10:28 pm
Erdely was manipulative in the article and evasive when confronted with questions, but it’s not clear to me that she actually explicitly lied. When she writes that Randall did not want to do an interview, it may very well be that that’s just what Jackie told her. Of course in that case it’d be irresponsible of Erdely to accept that and manipulative to write about Randall’s refusal it the way she did in the article (creating the impression that she had contacted Randall), but it wouldnt technically be lying.
Anither possibility, one mentioned in a comment above, is that Jackie gave Erdely like the email address or whatever of Randall (and perhaps the other friends) but that these were not really their email addresses and that it was Jackie not Randall writing back to Erdely. If this is how it went, then again it would be irresponsible etc of Erdely to not ask for more evidence but she would not be lying and wouldnt even have been manipulative because she sincerely thought that she had been in contact with Randall
12/10/2024 10:55 pm
When did the 3rd year lifeguard who asked her on a date become the 3rd year chemistry classmate who asked her for a date? In RS, reported that she met the 3rd year at the swimming pool, where both worked as lifeguards. Even a person with severe mental problems can tell a swimming pool from a chemistry classroom- right?
12/10/2024 11:13 pm
Incidence of rape in colleges - inflamed. Incidence of rape in the military - inflamed. Inflammatory thoughts, words and deeds are the M.O. of these ideologues. I had a first year English TA feminist liberal ideologue named Sue B. We had a short story whose subject was “stolen glances”, that is looking at a woman in any way without her permission - even if she is unaware of the glance - is wrong and immoral. The indoctrination by the feminists began long ago and has now morphed into rape as a culture where sexual violence as a norm is justification for acting against the Greek system straw man to make sweeping changes where legitimate justification for making those changes don’t exist on their own merit. The Greek system is the straw man. Maintaining the lock-down on the Greek system after RS retracted their story is proof that Teresa Sullivan is taking full advantage of not wasting this manufactured crisis to put in another chink in the existence of the Greek system bastion of privilege. If not for the risk of losing financial support and for the legal and political power of the Greek alums, fraternities and sororities would have vanished long ago. Still no apology from Teresa on her overreach or the University’s scapegoating.
I’ve wondered what would be utopia on this earth for a feminist liberal ideologue? I suspect a UVA with no Greek system would be a fine start.
12/10/2024 11:18 pm
It’s a trivial linguistic detail but fraternity members don’t refer to their chapters as frats - only an unafiliated student would say that. Perhaps Jackie really did play the role of Randall in an email exchange with Erdley. Given what we’ve learned, would that be surprising?
12/10/2024 11:22 pm
Wahoo90s
The administration appears intent on using this crisis to ram through permanent changes — and not for the good of the Greek community. On a fourteen person panels there are just four men and only one representive from the IFC.
That does not bode well.
If you can, please take a moment to make your voice heard.
12/10/2024 11:30 pm
Jackie told the Washington Post that she was at the top of her high school class and wanted to attend Brown. She didn’t want to go to UVa, but her parents couldn’t afford an Ivy League education. Is that why her attackers were frat boys, the perceived privileged ones?
12/10/2024 11:45 pm
It all makes perfect sense now. Jackie wanted Randall. Jackie made up a fake person who was supposedly interested in the “smart, hot” freshman. According to UVA, no one with this name ever attended UVA. She gave this fake person a face by using a high school classmate’s photo. This fake person (let’s call him Drew #1) that Jackie created texted Jackie’s three friends to make Randall jealous. It’s a kind of catfish scheme.
But Randall didn’t get jealous. So, Jackie went out on a fake date and came back with a horrific story—a true damsel in distress. She hoped to get Randall’s comfort, asking her friends to stay the night with her. It didn’t work, as only Andy and Cindy stayed the night. Jackie was devastated by Randall’s rejection, but she now had no way to avoid continuing to play the part of victim she had created for herself. Depression set in, in part at the monstrosity of the lie, in part because she was heartsick over Randall.
(I should add that the original story of being forced to perform oral sex by five guys in a fraternity house is just as absurd as the original Rolling Stone story. What did they do to force her? Threaten her? Point a gun at her? Please.)
In other words, every single last little detail of her story was made up. All of it.
When pressed recently to give Drew’s real name, Jackie knew that she couldn’t give the name of the made up person who didn’t exist. So, she tried to say that a co-worker at the pool was the guy (let’s call him Drew #2). Drew #2 says that he never met her in person, and he is a member of another fraternity. Andy, Randall, and Cindy say that they never heard Drew #2’s name until a reporter asked them this week.
And I agree that Jackie Coakley (she isn’t a victim, so there’s no reason not to use her full name now) likely catfished Erdely. Jackie had to protect her story, and this makes more sense than Erdely making up an unnecessary lie.
12/10/2024 11:48 pm
Mr. Bradley - you write, “For me the challenge has always been: How do you get to something that seems plausible—a rape at a fraternity—to forced oral sex around a circle of five or gang rape by seven men?”
Why does “a rape at a fraternity seem plausible” to you? To anyone? What is the incidence of sexual assault in UVA fraternity houses? How does it differ from the incidences in the campus, the city, the county and the state?
I don’t mean to be overly Socratic, but it seems nobody began their analysis from this point. Rather, the assumptions all started at the other end, and have unraveled. Perhaps a view from the start of the raveling would have been more productive.
12/10/2024 11:50 pm
[…] FROM RICHARD BRADLEY, WHO BROKE THE UVA STORY OPEN FIRST: Some Thoughts on “Discrepancies.” […]
12/10/2024 11:51 pm
Ryan Booth
Well done. Damn good synopsis.
12/10/2024 11:53 pm
Steve:
If the fact-checker is so great why would she just accept “that’s what Jackie said” and not ask the questions Richard and others did? Are fact-checkers so busy they don’t have time to verify some of the ‘facts’ of the most explosive story in the issue and start scrutinizing the questions and answers in the Dave Grohl story?
I want a job as a fact-checker at RS. Does it pay more than minimum wage?
I guess Jackie and SRE met for the first time and when Jackie said “a boy named Drew kissed me” SRE said “Great! I’ll fill in the rest. Look for your story in the November issue”.
12/11/2023 12:03 am
“Randall” in the recent WaPo article:
“She had clearly experienced a horrific trauma…I had never seen anybody acting like she was on that night before.”
—Right at that moment is is the crucial breakdown of critical thinking -i.e. certainty combined with ignorance. The error begins right there.
12/11/2023 12:04 am
“Matt” above asked: If this is a hoax, why did Jackie get so depressed?
It’s really difficult to speculate. People get withdrawn for many different reasons. Psychological trauma is actually an infrequent and/or lesser contributor to depression. I suffered tremendous stress in the sudden loss of my wife, and mother of our young children, and I can tell you I didn’t collapse at all. People are more resilient than they give themselves credit for.
On the other hand, underlying psychiatric or psychological disease can manifest itself with startling abruptness.
Women with Borderline Personality Disorder undergo shocking emotional swings and also concoct the most amazing, and convincing, stories. We know almost nothing about Jackie, but I can tell you that nothing I have heard thus far excludes BPD, and several behaviors point to it. Jackie’s recall is vivid, yet unstable, and she is unwilling to let others investigate her claims. These behaviors are characteristic of BPD. She is staggeringly insecure, so she lies to manipulate other people, but she is well aware she is lying, so she protects the lies.
I am absolutely no mental health professional, so my opinion doesn’t hold much sway, and I’ll leave it at: She is a loon, and loons are capable of a lot of stuff that does and doesn’t make sense.
12/11/2023 12:13 am
Re “The Post should stop quibbling and say, frankly, that every single aspect of both women’s stories has been contradicted by their reporting.”
Why? They have brought the rope and the wood; others can build the scaffold and finish the job.
If the facts are dramatic enough all you need to do is stick to them. (Note to Erdely, emphasis on “facts”).
And I have only a slight quibble with Ryan Booth’s projected scenario:
“So, Jackie went out on a fake date and came back with a horrific story—a true damsel in distress.”
18 year olds aren’t the most discerning, but really - is a girl who was just assaulted by 5 guys likely to be date-bait? Why would Jackie think anyone would want to be the guy to go after her on that kind of rebound?
The obvious response is that my question included the phrase “think” and we are talking about love-struck teens. Well - she should have invented a terrifying purse-snatching. No evidence, no injury, lots of drama. But I say that with the (relative) wisdom of my many years.
12/11/2023 12:15 am
Ryan Booth
I’ll second the “damn good synopsis” comment.
Until you’ve lived with someone with a disorder such as BPD, you can’t fully comprehend just what lengths they will go to for deception. I have, and I’ll tell you, it’s amazing how cartoonish their memories are. It’s like they’re telling you the plot of a movie they watched. I had a bit of deja vu reading the original story; it felt cartoonish, like my girlfriend’s memories.
And her behavior when we broke up! My god, it was dramatic. I can easily imagine Jackie’s behavior from start to finish, from becoming infatuated (which BPD people do way too quickly) to manipulating with fictitious characters to becoming suicidal at the end.
The one piece that doesn’t fit with a BPD diagnosis is that Randall wasn’t more deeply involved. If all this is what I think it is, he got incredibly lucky to not be sucked in. BPD women are easy to fall in love with.
12/11/2023 12:20 am
“The Post’s coverage has bettayed either bias or cowardice. Both Paul Farhi and Rees Shapiro failed to ask interviewees hard questions, obvious followups, in their initial reporting. They’ve continued in background grafs to treat things as facts that have not been established.”
Strong stuff coming from an anonymous poster on a blog.
12/11/2023 12:21 am
In Erdely’s defense, assuming Jackie is a BPD sufferer, Erdely was told a very believable story. BPD sufferers are very convincing. They’re very good, very enthusiastic liars. I don’t doubt for a second that Jackie’s friends immediately believed that something really awful had happened to Jackie.
12/11/2023 12:31 am
As a UVa alum, I’d like to thank you Richard for your continued coverage of this story. You started it. Rees Shapiro at WaPo has been doing great too at really getting the facts out there.
Anyone with half a brain can figure out what seems to have happened through the WaPo story tonight. Ryan Booth summarized it well above.
12/11/2023 12:31 am
Liars lie, it’s what they do.
I think it’s already started, but people need to go back over everything Erdely ever wrote-because if she’s lying or irresponsible here, it’s not the first time.
12/11/2023 12:33 am
@CurrentStudent, I don’t think the quote is even his. SRE uses quotes for Randal earlier in the story (even though she didn’t speak with him), but the line “citing his loyalty to his own frat” comes from SRE without quotes.
I’ll admit it stuck out to me as well when I first read it, though not because of the specific reason you gave. I think the use of the word depends on the campus and the house; I probably would refer to “frat brothers” or the “frat house”, though I may not have said I was in a “frat”. Rather, it’s because I would expect someone speaking with a journalist to be more formal. That is, it would make more sense to say “loyalty to fraternity brothers” than “loyalty to my frat”. Of course, I don’t think “loyalty to my frat” extends to covering up rapes either, so that part of the story stuck out to me as well.
I would be interested if Randall actually is a Phi Psi though. I’m not sure that was discussed anywhere.
12/11/2023 12:37 am
Now, as the story is starting to emerge, Teresa Sullivan needs to get it together. Her lame response and inability to admit she was unfair to the Greek community is absurd.
If Greek life doesn’t resume as normal in January (an important time, since frats and sororities rush right when school gets back), there will be hell to pay from national groups and alums.
I have always been proud to be a member of my sorority, and it upsets me how unfairly everyone has been treated. It wouldn’t be acceptable to scapegoat and punish an entire group based on the supposed (now essentially proven false) actions of a few….except since it’s “rich white kids” (many of whom aren’t white and aren’t rich) - that’s somehow okay.
Sullivan should really just resign - she is terrible.
12/11/2023 12:46 am
@Indiana Delta - I get what you’re saying about the terminology. When I was at Uva (10 years have gone by fast), it was really common for people to say frats, even guys in them. I remember when a national girl from our sorority came in, she was surprised we all called them frats and said at her school (in Wisconsin I think), no one called them frats because “you wouldn’t call your country your c!nt.”
Anyway, I am sure “Randall” is not a Phi Psi because I am sure Shapiro at WaPo would have mentioned if he was.
And it’s clear SRE didn’t talk to him, or anyone other than Jackie and the quoted activists.
12/11/2023 12:53 am
Why would her behavior change? As someone who identified herself as top of her high school class who turns out to be failing 3 classes in the middle of her first term, it doesn’t look good. With her 0 or 1 point something GPA, she’d be in danger of losing any scholarships she was awarded. And no doubt Mom and Dad would be pissed and might possibly yank her out of the state public school, when she thought she was Ivy league material.
Why the failing grades? Was she a confirmed party girl, out every night of the week? There are plenty of 18-year olds who go out of control the first time they’re away from home. The first time she mentioned the rape to a school official was when she was confronted about her poor grades. There are many possible reasons for her behavioral change that don’t have to be something traumatic that happened at a fraternity party.
12/11/2023 12:59 am
Thanks to folks here who made me realize it is indeed possible that Jackie faked being Randall to Erdely by email and rejected an interview on his behalf by saying (preposterously) that he didn’t want to get into trouble with his own ‘frat’. It doesn’t elevate Ms. Erdely from the lowest rungs of my estimation, but we could still give her the benefit of the doubt on that one thing since Jackie evidently made a practice of catfishing her acquaintences.
It does seem that this tall tale started out as a childish attempt to get some white knight sympathy from a guy who was not reciprocating her romantic interest.
But we should all take note that her story also came in quite handy when she was summoned to the office of the Dean of Academics to discuss her disastrous academic performance and was required to provide them with a compelling enough explanation which would persuade them somehow not to flunk her out.
According to the RS account, it was at this meeting - with her mother in attendance - when Jackie made the claim she’d been assaulted to any official at all for the first time and I think it’s an important detail.She had a motive for going wider with her story.
Did she know she was likely to be asked to provide a good excuse for her academic failure to the Dean at the time she set her three friends up as remote witnesses of sorts for the faked date- gone- wrong?
It’s not necessary to believe she saw her ruse as a twofer which would work to manipulate both Randall and the Dean in order to conclude she lied for cynical reasons, but it would be interesting to find out when she started to fail those three (according to RS) classes - before or after her claimed assault.
12/11/2023 1:00 am
Kind of a trivial point, but do we even know for sure that Jackie had been accepted at Brown, and that her parents wouldn’t pay her tuition?
12/11/2023 1:01 am
Um, not sure I am correct about this, but this all happened in the first few weeks of freshman year? They said “her personality changed this semester.” Of course she did - it was the first time she probably did poorly in school.
12/11/2023 1:07 am
And do we really know she was at the top of her class in HS?
12/11/2023 1:09 am
Ha Joe, you posted my thought - or a similar one at least - exactly while I was writing mine.
12/11/2023 1:12 am
I raise these questions because I’ve known a couple of people who are pathological liars, and you can believe nothing — and especially when the lie makes the person seem more impressive.
12/11/2023 1:17 am
I think it is telling that even the earliest critics did not immediately say the entire gang rape story was a hoax, even though it was obviously a hoax on first read. As it should be, the presumption was that the story could be true but needed further checking. But there was no longer any reason to believe the what after the who, when, where, how, and why had all been proven false.
What I find most disheartening is that while this whole RS story was a complete disaster that has hurt countless people, many people seem disappointed that the story turned out to be a hoax. We should be elated that it was a hoax! There are nine fewer gang rapists prowling the grounds of UVA. A young woman in obvious and tragic distress can finally get the help she really needs. No cause or awareness campaign is worth having that horrible crime turn out to be true.
The only bad news here is the RS story itself and the aftermath. It is worth examining how it happened and how the public reacted to it in the hopes of not repeating these kinds of mistakes in the future.
12/11/2023 1:18 am
@Kate UVA: I agree Sullivan is atrocious.Didn’t I hear about some leaked emails where she and the progs on faculty were conspiring to get rid of the Greeks on campus before this manufactured scandal even hit? She seemed like she was waiting for any excuse at all to suspend the lot of them. Everything about this story is fishy!
12/11/2023 1:19 am
Oops, sorry, anon @ 1:18 is me.I hit submit without signing I guess.
12/11/2023 1:20 am
Jackie’s behavior qualifies as intentional libel for which she will be sued.
Book it.
12/11/2023 1:20 am
First, I’ll add myself to those saying “good job and great instincts” to Mr. Bradley, and thank him for both his initial spot-on questions and his continued writing about this story.
Following up on some comments above, the story line that “something - meaning a sexual assault of some sort - had to have happened because Jackie suddenly became sad and withdrawn” always rang false to me. Does anyone else remember being a college freshman living away from home for the first time? (I do, just barely, it was more than 20 years ago for me.) Do you remember how much you, or people you knew, changed during that period of time? There are a host of reasons that a person can become despondent and withdrawn in the first semester at college - academic challenges, struggling to make friends in a new place, missing family and high school friends, getting into too much fun (or trouble, or drugs) without the structures of home, etc. The idea that a sexual assault was the clear explanation always seemed off.
That said, it now appears that our actual explanation includes a catfishing scheme by Jackie to invent a suitor in order to make a classmate jealous and get him romantically interested in her, so I don’t know that Occam’s razor still has a place in this story.
12/11/2023 1:24 am
Steve and other folks wondering about the earlier “military rape” story by SRE-Most of the details about that whole thing are just flippin’ impossible, but if you haven’t been in the services, you’d never know, because you don’t have the right context. A good detailing of the factual issues she related (which are, if not impossible, highly unlikely) can be read here:
https://storify.com/gerrydales/firstteamtommy-destroys-rs-author-s-other-works-yo
Another example of her fabulism:
http://thefederalist.com/2014/12/08/sabrina-rubin-erdelys-old-stories-sure-read-like-bad-lifetime-movies/
It’s highly ironic this young lady knew Steven Glass, and has written about him, because it is highly probable that we’ll be speaking of both of them in the same breath in future times. Utterly amazing.
12/11/2023 1:30 am
For those reading this page who commented about the fact checker at RS, check out this earlier post by Richard:
“Resignations at Rolling Stone?”
. . .
My guess: Coco McPherson was blinded by ideology; like Sabrina Rubin Erdely, she wanted to believe in this story. What makes me say this? McPherson’s tweet of November 20th:
So proud of @SabrinaRErdely and @RollingStone and the incredibly brave young women of UVA for coming forward http://rol.st/11Cs0z8
12/11/2023 1:38 am
Have you got a Twitter yet??
I can’t believe how crazy out of control this story has gotten. What I’m wondering is…at this point, what is the likelihood that Rubin Erdely and Jackie knew each other before? Is it all possible that this was planned from the beginning?
I guess I’m reaching here…maybe it’s not that odd that lying reporter w/an agenda meets lying source w/an agenda.
Sounds like it could be fodder for next season of Serial.
Thank you for writing about this. You’re like the calming grownup presence in the room that gives the voice of reason amongst the hysteria.
12/11/2023 1:50 am
I’m not commenting on the story so much as the thinking here: Why does everyone suppose that Jackie’s depression in the months of her first year at uni HAD to have a specific cause?
Leaving the small world of high school for the big world of a prestigious public university can be ego crushing:
You’re suddenly removed from doting parents/ neighbors/ siblings.
You’re suddenly just one among many. There are 25,000 other people around, each of whom was the smartest kid at his/ her school.
Because of the sheer size of the population, there are a lot of beautiful people around, too. (I went to a public college in the south and there were just heartbreakingly beautiful girls everywhere.)
The point is, there needn’t be any specific traumatic event for a person to get depressed, feel overwhelmed, or just want to stay in bed for a few weeks. Interestingly, second semester of freshman year was when this hit for me and most of the other people I saw come down with the malaise. Makes sense, too. The excitement’s worn off a bit, and that’s when you really start to struggle.
12/11/2023 1:52 am
Jackie kinda reminds me of Tania Head, the woman who pretended to be a 9/11 survivor and even ran the 9/11 Survivors Network for a while… until her elaborate web of lies was finally exposed after the NYT approached her for 9/11 anniversary story and they discovered the facts weren’t adding up. It seems both Jackie and Tania may have some type of borderline personality/Munchausen-like syndrome where they pretend to be extreme victims in an effort to gain sympathy and attention from others (see article below).
http://nypost.com/2012/03/25/she-wasnt-there/
12/11/2023 1:59 am
… (continuing a thread from yesterday’s comment section) …
Tom Maguire- Andy, Randall and Cindy had just been outed as the world’s biggest assholes (falsely, it seems), and none made an attempt to salvage their reputation? The fact that all 3 of them kept their mouths shut — no YikYak, no Facebook, no calling the school paper — for 3 weeks blows my mind, I am having trouble believing it entirely. At least one is a member of a fraternity — the school shuts down ALL Greeks and he still stays silent? No tip-off to Phi Psi just to say hey, I think I can help get you guys off the hook?
Let me be clear — I have never believed Jackie’s story, this is not an attempt to restore her credibility. But the idea that all 3 of these students have not spoken out also seems very strange.
12/11/2023 2:02 am
Thanks for great coverage Richard! You deserve a medal. I’m against the False Rape Accusation Culture (FRAC) prevalent in America today.
My son started college last year, away from home the first time, and he also initally struggled with academics for the first time. I can attest that he had demonstrated some very strange behaviors as if trying on new personalities I think in an effort to connect with people. Thank God he recovered but I can see where if could go wrong for someone with less support or fortitude.
I look forward to Mr. Shapiro’s investigation of who owned the phone used to text the 3rd year chem student texts. wapo is just slow leaking now…
12/11/2023 2:03 am
Jackie kinda reminds me of Tania Head, the woman who pretended to be a 9/11 survivor and even ran the 9/11 Survivors Network for a while… until her elaborate web of lies was exposed by the NYT after they approached her about an anniversary story and discovered the facts weren’t adding up. It seems both Jackie and Tania may have sort of borderline/Munchausen-like syndrome where they adopt an extreme victim persona in order to gain sympathy and attention from others (see article below).
http://nypost.com/2012/03/25/she-wasnt-there/
12/11/2023 2:15 am
Jackie kinda reminds me of Tania Head, the woman who pretended to be a 9/11 survivor…
http://nypost.com/2012/03/25/she-wasnt-there/
12/11/2023 2:46 am
It’s a funny thing about human nature that when people have a little of something that they want, it’s never good enough for them and they gamble it all away.
Jackie had convinced UVA’s survivor networks and counselors that she was a victim, but after shooting too far and elevating her victimhood claim to the national stage, and now everyone will know that she made it up (well, it depends on how all of this is received and what Rolling Stone says in its new article). She could have just kept the secret between herself and the three friends.
Erdely wanted to take her career to the big leagues and advance her cause, but now her cause has been set back and her career…. not looking good.
12/11/2023 2:51 am
@anon 1:50 and Nick:Absolutely agree. I had the time of my life when I left home for college, but in my dorm suite (4 girls in 2 brs with one bathroom- oy, that’ll make anyone crazy!) we ran the gamut of emotions from my obnoxious cheeriness all the way down to severe sleep-all-day depression for one girl who was even suicidal at one point and none of us needed a gang rape as the trigger for any of our behaviors.
College can be a very emotionally stressful transition for kid, as any school counselor can attest. In most cases, the dark days don’t last and they adjust so well you’d never suspect they ever had trouble dealing with the big changes in their lives, but for a few this is when mental illness can manifest - it’s when a lot of schizophrenics get diagnosed, as I understand it.
12/11/2023 3:43 am
@Steve, there are also significant problems with the legal timeline as SRE presents it in the PO Bummer story. I have a link discussing that that I’ll post when I’m not on my phone. I was in the military, and while I wasn’t a JAG, I had a lot of interaction with the legal system because of my job, and the person is correct about the timeline problems.
12/11/2023 4:02 am
I think syndicated columnist Froma Harrop is really on to something and would appreciate hearing what others think. This excerpt is the focus of her 12/9/14 column:
“Not naming the accusers in rape cases has become a standard journalistic practice, pushed by advocates for the victims. That must end.
Failure to identify those involved, ostensibly to protect the alleged victim’s privacy, can’t help but undermine the credibility of the reporting. It also poorly serves victims by feeding the idea that being raped is a disgrace. Rape is a violent crime, a felony, and women subjected to it should feel no more shame than those who are slashed or punched in the face.”
http://www.shreveporttimes.com/story/opinion/columnists/2014/12/10/make-rape-identities-public/20137249/
12/11/2023 4:21 am
“Why? They have brought the rope and the wood; others can build the scaffold and finish the job.”
Because they’re reporters. Readers aren’t supposed to “fill in the blanks” or “build the scaffold” or whatever the hell else we’re supposed to do. We’ve gotten so used to hints and innuendos that we forget what facts look like. They don’t have to assert that Jackie wasn’t raped. But they shouldn’t let their readers have to guess at the meaning.
They *didn’t* stick to the facts. They hinted at them. As I said, these aren’t discrepancies; these are flatly contradictory assertions.
12/11/2023 5:18 am
Wow. Fascinating read. To me, the most explosive part of this story is the relationship of Erdly to Glass. Imagine the odds. Did they belong to the same clubs? Have the same teachers mentor them? How DID their paths cross over the years? And looky, looky, the relationship between Erdly and Renda and the White House. Talk about playing into biases. But the bias it is playing into is the one that fact our government and media lie. This thing has a Ferguson feel to it - by that I mean the manufactured crisis. It’s seems to me to be a nutshell of this administration and the state of liberalism today. It just needs a lucky hat to be complete.
12/11/2023 5:26 am
“Does anyone else remember being a college freshman living away from home for the first time?”
It seems pretty common for depression to hit freshmen. It’s not clear that our culture’s emphasis on 18 year olds going far away to four-year colleges is a really good idea. Maybe a lot of kids would be better off going to a junior college near home, then going off to college at 20. That’s terribly unfashionable these days, but maybe it’s not such an obviously bad idea as it sounds.
Another time depression seems to hit is right after graduation (e.g., “The Graduate”).
12/11/2023 5:31 am
Whether Jackie is a full-blown BPD (look up case histories) or a natural fabulist is clinically interesting, but the presentation is much the same. I had years of dealing with several people of that bent, and I must say that they can be convincing. They are smart, at least in their preternatural ability to construct complex tales, in which they always figure as the dramatic focus. That a second-rate reporter was taken in is unremarkable, all the more so in that she embraced confirmation bias as a cognitive style. There are many other actors caught up in this complex story, many innocents, some cynical and corrupt, using it to further their bitter and vicious agendas. The Jackies of this world are disturbed, but characteristically un-self-aware and can cause immense damage, greatly magnified in this case by a malicious media and academic and ideological minions.
12/11/2023 5:53 am
The meme or narrative of widespread campus rape is going to collapse. This story and others like it-namely the military rape chronicled by the same RS author-will implode so completely that ‘rape culture’ as subject matter for future mag articles will be withheld awaiting interminable fact-checking to the point that they are rejected and never published. What will follow will be a reexamination of the original data ascribed to the entire concept of a ‘rape culture’ and the data will not hold and the narrative destroyed.
12/11/2023 5:53 am
Sabrina Rubin Erdely worked with Steven Glass while both were students at Penn. In her review of the movie Shattered Glass, which tells the story of his fabrications, she muses on his actions:
I found the movie riveting—although, due to the personal connection, plus the fact that Shattered Glass portrays my own line of work (realistically, I might add), I’m an admittedly biased viewer. As the lights came up, however, I felt dissatisfied by the film, because it never attempts to resolve the big question: Why did he do it?
All things considered, Glass’s fabrications and cover-ups probably took more time and effort (and produced more anxiety) than if he’d just done the reporting in the first place.
These aren’t the actions of a person under strain, as I once tried to convince myself, or of a man-child being suffocated by his overbearing parents. They’re the actions of a sociopathic creep. The movie points in that direction, but doesn’t try to nail it down. What was Glass after? What was he running from?
The movie ultimately doesn’t shed much light, and Stephen Glass himself isn’t telling. If, that is, he even knows.
What seems to be confusing her is that Glass went through all this stress and trouble for nothing. His lies didn’t support any agenda or narrative. He was wasting his time merely creating really interesting stories. And this confuses Rubin Erdely. Why? She doesn’t seem to upset with the concept of lying in general, her only issue seems to be lying without an agenda. But in support of a noble cause like taking down a squad of Rape Gestapo frat-boys, she finds deception a bit more acceptable?
12/11/2023 6:09 am
Rip — I think your take on what was Sabrina Rubin Erdely’s confusion about why Glass fabricated HIS stories is as telling as it is compelling. Cops like to keep suspects talking, without too much care about what they’re saying, because suspects frequently (and unknowingly) “leak” the truth, even when they lie. Erdely appears to have “leaked” her personal ethical standard while critiquing Glass.
I don’t know where she is now, but it she’s not in hell, she can see it from there.
12/11/2023 6:09 am
The left dislikes intermediating institutions. Like churches, Boy Scouts, JayCee, and fraternities. That which gives the individual power and support other than/against The State is inimical to The State. So when this came up, the left jumped on it as one more opportunity.
I had a hell of a senior year in high school. First term in college (Enormous State University. There were more people in my dorm than in a number of small colleges.) was really tough. I accidentally happened on an activity-if I’d been on a different floor, even, I’d have missed it-that helped me get back to level. Otherwise, things would have remained difficult.
So, from my perspective, Jackie could easily have had a tough intro to college and become anxious or depressed. Thing about a fib is, if you haven’t planned it in advance, you have to wing it and that takes you into weird territory.
12/11/2023 6:32 am
More stuff on Erdely and her credibility issues, in case you might be interested… it is always “the bullied against the system”… she truly shops around for victims
Anoka-Hennepin schools fire back over Rolling Stone’s gay bullying story
http://www.twincities.com/ci_19906521
Interesting part:
“Besides interviewing Johnson and Aaberg, Erdely said, she spent four months talking to dozens of community members, including other parents, teachers and students.
“Between all of them, they gave me a very full sense of what was going on in the district,” Erdely said. “If (Carlson) thinks this was a distorted version of the truth, maybe he is too far removed.” ”
So now we know Erdely never bothered talking to anyone.. she just pretends she talked to dozens of people connected to the story.. this same BS was given by Rolling Stone after Jackie’s story:
“In the months Sabrina Rubin Erdely reported the story, Jackie said or did nothing that made her, or Rolling Stone’s editors and fact-checkers, question her credibility.”
12/11/2023 6:40 am
People are wonderful Petri dishes of personality pathologies. I recommend Barbara Oakley’s writing (check Amazon) on the subject, especially “Evil Genes”. Eye opening.
Having recently been part of the support system for someone with diagnosed BPD, all my alarms were screaming as I read how this RS story was dissolving before our eyes.
The problem of pathological personalities is both wide and deep. Lots of people are absolute shipwrecks.
Been there…on the rocks…watching. Not pretty.
12/11/2023 7:18 am
@Leilani, yes, my experience was very similar to what you’re describing too. (Except all the girls on my hall shared one large bathroom. Madness.)
Anyway, I think if you understand this environment — which I remember as nearly equal parts fun, stimulating, competitive, bewildering and lonely, much of the rest becomes clear.
Especially at the very beginning, college is a meat market, and not just in the direct hook-up sort of sense. It’s an incredibly competitive marketplace for attention and identity. And people who come to it already having the odd emotional problem might find themselves performing less well than they hoped or expected, and seeking to correct that in unorthodox ways. We’re all hungry for recognition, connection and attention, maybe never more so than when we’re away from home for the first time.
None of this is meant as any sort of justification or anything else; it’s sheer armchair speculation on my part.
Likewise, whether BPD is a legitimate or common mental illness is beyond me, but when I read about it in a Wikipedia article, it struck me how the symptoms of BPD read a lot like the symptoms of being young. To wit:
“Manipulation to obtain nurturance is considered to be a common feature of BPD by many who treat the disorder… People with BPD tend to have trouble seeing a clear picture of their identity. In particular, they tend to have difficulty knowing what they value and enjoy. They are often unsure about their long-term goals for relationships and jobs. This difficulty with knowing who they are and what they value can cause people with BPD to experience feeling ’empty’ and ‘lost’.”
Claiming to have been the victim of an attack might be a pretty wild thing to do, but it would deliver some rational payoffs — there’s suddenly a specific reason why you feel lost and sad, while at the same time you’re not to blame for your condition, and a community of well intentioned supporters emerges to brace you up. You can even gain an identity by becoming one of them, just like someone joining a church. So it’s not really totally implausible that a troubled, needy person would ever make up a story of this kind. I think a lot of us have wished, from time to time, that we had reasons for our feelings.
So take a person who is seeking these sorts of payoffs… support, nurturance, etc. The story he or she invented probably wouldn’t be a muddled one of drunken he-said she-said (which can be its own kind of tragedy but doesn’t lend itself to overwhelming gut reactions). The really effective sort of story would be one with very clear lines, no possible mistaking who the victim was, because otherwise the payoffs would not be reliable or predictable. Such a story might even provoke a reaction in the person inventing it — after all, it is horrible and shocking, and like George Costanza said, “It’s not a lie if you believe it.”
Finally, enter a journalist blinded by her own agenda, who’s after precisely this sort of story: clear moral lines, no muddiness, something that elicits a gut reaction. (This goes back to RB’s original post about the need to be skeptical of stories that confirm our biases.)
You couldn’t fit all this into a soundbite or even a 48-minute Law and Order episode, but is it plausible? To me it is. I don’t know what happened in this particular case, but there’s nowt so queer as folk. Even as I speculate about this, I try to remember that everyone involved here, in this RS story and the fallout, has a life and family. (Which is not to say everyone is equally involved, or equally innocent.) Well, it’s just really sad. What a complete and utter sh*tshow it looks to be. Among other things (and far from the main concerns), I think a lot of us will remember this as the cause of a major re-shifting of our own personal media alliances. I’ll never be able to read Jezebel again.
12/11/2023 7:34 am
When I was a college freshman living in a dorm back in 1968 (just like the dorm described by Anon 7:18) one of the girls on our floor told us that her parents and younger brother had been killed in a car accident right before she left for college, so she needed us to be her “family” — even though the details were too painful for her to share. And it worked for almost the entire semester, right up until the girls mother called her roommate — a stranger to the mom — asking the roommate for Christmas present ideas for her daughter. No one in her family had been killed, but the girl was barely fazed at being caught telling such a huge lie. She said we had all misunderstood her — and moved to another floor after winter break.
It’s hard for most of us to believe, but there are people who are that “misguided.”
12/11/2023 7:47 am
Here’s another detail of Jackie’s story—one that’s much later on in the Rolling Stone article—that also strains credulity.
To quote the story (excuse the profane language to follow):
“This past spring, in separate incidents, both Emily Renda and Jackie were harrassed outside bars on the Corner by men who recognized them from presentations and called them ‘cunt’ and ‘feminazi bitch.’ One flung a bottle at Jackie that broke on the side of her face, leaving a blood-red bruise around her eye.”
I have a number of observations about this. The Rolling Stone story describes the Corner as a retail strip and Google images of it reveal that it’s quite busy. So, if someone hurled a bottle at Jackie, one imagines there would be witnesses.
Question: Why, yet again, does Jackie not go to the police following this assault?
This time, presumably, she would have witnesses to back her up given that she’s in a bar on a strip that seems quite busy and popular. Does she have a deep aversion to approaching the police? Instead, Jackie emails Dean Eramo about the attack and shows up in her office with a “bruise still mottling her face.”
Many people do crazy and aggressive things when they are drunk. So it is entirely possible that someone threw a bottle at Jackie. But that strikes me as unusual. Given all the implausibilities in Jackie’s story, I find myself doubting this account of how she received her black eye. Yet again, we only have her word that this incident. There are no witnesses and Sabrina Rubin Erdely doesn’t appear to have tried to corroborate the details of this public assault - one that, presumably, would’ve been quite memorable to anyone who’d seen it.
I also have a problem with SRE tying the two “separate incidents” together. Which student—Jackie or Emily—recalls those epithets shouted at her? Were both girls, in each incident, subjected to taunts? There’s a fuzzy lack of detail. Indeed, SRE doesn’t tell us if the girls were alone at the Corner when this happened or whether they were accompanied by anyone.
Why does this matter? Because it’s a very damning portrayal of the men at UVA and shapes the readers opinion to believe that there must be a deep culture of misogyny at UVA if men can throw bottles at rape victims without any outcry by witnesses or any consequence.
Also: If men at the bar recognized Jackie because of “presentations,” that suggests that Jackie’s identity was widely known across UVA long before the Rolling Stone story. Makes me wonder whether her gang rape allegations had circulated long before this story emerged. Was she truly that widely recognized on campus recognized before the story?
12/11/2023 8:07 am
With the Wash. post’s latest article this whole sordid tale has turned into a Shakespearian tragi-comedic farce, with all the players having their own agendas. It’s brilliant in all its layers and complexity.
Jackie - spurned female turned catfish. (Jackie - the UVa fish of choice is a Wahoo, not catfish. You’re right, you should have gone to Brown.)
Emily Renda - wow. You introduced Jackie, whose named alleged attacker was known to not even be a UVa student, to a reporter from a national publication, thereby taking the floppy little catfish and weaponizing it into a military grade cruise missle. In your agenda to help the little wanna be victim, you created a whole community of real victims. Chew on that one, honey.
Sabrina Erdely - whole volumes could be devoted to you. Deal with you later.
And my favorite - Teresa Sullivan. You met with this reporter - the facts of Jackie’s case must have been known to you. Which means you KNEW the alleged attacker was NOT a UVa student. And NOT a fraternity member. Which means Sullivan seized on this opportunity to go after the whole greek system on completely false pretenses, and she KNEW it at the time.
Question for the entire UVa community - the real victims in this tragi-comical farce - does the Honor Code apply to the administration as well as students?
Should the UVa president be expected to not lie or cheat? Did Sullivan pull a fast one and seize this “golden” opportunity to go after the greek community, knowing full well at the time the alleged “attacker” was not a student? Ends justifying the means, even if predicated on a complete fraud?
What did Sullivan know about Jackie’s case when she acted? Did Sullivan pull a cheat? Anyone from the Board of Trustees reading this? Hope you’re chewing on this one. . . .
And finally, if Teresa Sullivan has 2 brain cells to rub together, she’s currently on the phone with the presidents of W&M and JMU,arranging for Jackie’s transfer to one of those august institutions for the spring semester. And then Jackie is presented with the options of honor trial/expulsion, or quiet transfer. Get her out of the University community. Now. I did feel sorry for Jackie. But no more. She pulled a catfish, and then repeated her lies to a reporter for a national publication. What did she think would happen????
Get out. Of my school. You have no honor, Madam. That applies to the liars and cheaters in this micro-drama. Jackie and Sullivan both.
And for all you feminists, this entire incident has pushed all my “triggers.” Well done.
12/11/2023 8:22 am
Not sure if anyone has made this observation or not but if Randall was in fact a freshman when this alleged story transpired then he would never have made the statement alleged by SRE that he wouldn’t talk “out of loyalty to my frat” because as a freshman at UVA he would not belong to a frat in September. Rush at UVA doesn’t take place until second semester.
12/11/2023 8:25 am
But remember, women don’t lie about rape, and the media never sensationalizes claims that reinforce the narrative: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/07/kbr-could-win-jamie-leigh-jones-rape-trial
Like Nixon going to China, Mother Jones might have been one of the only magazines that could publish this story without it being dismissed out of hand.
12/11/2023 8:33 am
@Zeplander - Great observations! That “bottle attack part” also draw my attention during my very first read… I was “What? People can throw bottles at random girls walking around and get away with it?”
Like.. for a bottle to break thats a very serious injury.. she didnt need hospital care? No opinions from friends about this terrible incident? No protests from feminists groups like “STOP ATTACKING VICTIMS” ?
@Female UVA Grad ’86 - brilliant post! Looking forward to read all your chapters about Sabrina Erdely… she deserves a movie.. maybe she will get one and fulfill her dream of catching up to Glass
12/11/2023 8:43 am
UVA Grad ’86, wow. Bravo! That was great.
Jackie’s roommate, and the fact the school paper published her enabling bullshit, owes the entire school a deep apology. For almost two straight days she perpetuated the hoax and caused more discomfort for all male Greeks on that campus, who, in a perfect stroke of irony, are the true victims of this epic farce.
Not to bead a dead horse here, but I’ll also echo how troubling and confusing the first few weeks of freshman semester are. Extremely so for introverts as we are forced to suddenly have a roommate, live in an insane and boisterous dorm hall, and the parties and noise, my god, those first several weeks still bring back bad memories. I had to pull some moves with the counseling center simply in order to get a single room as the school had a clause forcing first years to live with a roommate in essentially what was Introvert’s Hell.
Taught me a lot, though. Wish I’d started the summer session and avoided all of that madness. Learned to work the system and to never accept patented nonsense as ironclad policy. Forgive the rant, back to our regularly scheduled Jackie Coakley Hoax of 2014.
12/11/2023 9:00 am
For those asking why the 3 friends are just now coming forward, I ask you to remember the leftist mob that immediately gathered and called for everyone’s head on a platter. They threw cinder blocks through windows. Anyone who raised an eyebrow was called a rape apologist and worse.
12/11/2023 9:01 am
@Observer: I was wondering the same last night, about when Randall referred to his own fraternity allegiance, so I went back to the RS story. He says on the night in question, that he and Andy intend to rush for a fraternity and Jackie’s rape allegation presents a problem for them. Then, SRE says that while she was researching the story, he declined to comment because of his own fraternity status. So, he was not a member on the night of Jackie’s trauma.
12/11/2023 9:08 am
@BT: Good point! But also, who were they supposed to come out to and protest the lies, I mean discrepancies. The Washington Post came to them with Jackie’s blessing. Apparently, in her sadly twisted mind, her friends were going to corroborate her story. That in itself, shows how deeply troubled she is, she believes her own lies.
12/11/2023 9:11 am
@Observer and @Hmmm… I see it as 2 different moments:
It seems more like that he wasn’t a member of a fraternity in 2012, when Jackie cried rape. And then they feared helping Jackie could harm them
But it is in 2014, 2 years after the incident, that he refused to talk to SRE (for the RS article) “out of loyalty to my frat”
So when the rape happened he wasnt a frat boy.. When Erdely was writing her article, he already was and wouldnt talk about it to her.
12/11/2023 9:22 am
This wretched situation reminds me of Eric Hoffer’s great insight “Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket” from “The Temper of Our Time.”
The undeserved shaming and lack of justice for rape victims was a cause that gave birth to a movement, The movement was (most deservedly!) successful, and gave birth to an infrastructure -the business-, and has now degenerated into the racket phase, as demonstrated by Jackie’s catfishing, Erdley’s career-making fabulisms, Sullivan’s shutting down of her (perceived) enemies, etc.
12/11/2023 9:24 am
Re: ” Andy, Randall and Cindy had just been outed as the world’s biggest assholes” so why weren’t they screaming to the press?
As I noted a while back, they were complaining to people on campus. This was on a Times comment board from late November:
“This is what Claire Kaplin [Kaplan - TM], a faculty member at the Women’s Center whose title is Program Director of Gender Violence and Social Change, had to say on a Facebook thread:
I’ve learned from some of the students involved or interviewed that the reporter actually made some of that up. The scene about whether or not to go to the hospital never happened, and that when they wanted to take her to the police, she didn’t want to go. That jibes with what I heard from administrators.”
…
Cora
what I understand is that she [Jackie, the alleged victim] had much more support than the reporter stated. That some of the comments by friends were not said at all (the whole conversation telling her not to report)….
[END]
Naturally, one stray comment didn’t generate any public follow-up but the waters were roiling beneath the surface.
12/11/2023 9:35 am
CBS has an interview up this morning with the 3 friends. “Andy” is now Alex. The 2 boys were asked to spend the night by Jackie but not Cindy. Randall says that Jackie was always a good storyteller. But her emotional trauma that night makes everything confusing.
12/11/2023 9:41 am
“Rubin” - isn’t that a Jewish surname?
You’d think she’d be more careful. This strikes me as being exactly the “Big Lie” - a lie so big nobody would dare to doubt it; except that when someone does, the results are disastrous for the liar.
12/11/2023 9:45 am
@Female UVa Grad 1986 - Bravo! Perfect indictment of Sullivan and everyone connected to this.
I agree with Zeplander that the beer bottle attack on the Corner seems really strange and implausible now. The Corner is more than a retail strip - it’s where all the bars and restaurants are. Upperclassmen are out in force basically everynight. I find it very hard to believe many men would recognize these girls at all. And if they did, they’d name call and throw beer bottles? This stinks to high heaven.
Agreeing with everyone else that your first semester at college can be a very trying time. I was very homesick also and it took a few months to find friends. There’s also a lot of pressure at UVa to commit to your housing for your second year in October or so - difficult if you haven’t met your group of people yet.
It is also jarring if you’ve always been one of the smartest in your class growing up to then be in a place where everyone else also was. It took me a while to adjust to this, and also to convince my parents that a B or B+ was still pretty good….when they had never seen anything other than an A for 18 years.
12/11/2023 9:45 am
@Joe Y - great observation. To that end, John Foubert, UVa dean from 1998-2000, now at Okla State U, founder and national president of 1 in 4. He is out there trashing UVa every chance he can - quoted on NPR after RS fraud revealed, stating UVa has an extreme rape culture, far worse than any other institution he’s ever dealt with. He also wrote an inflamatory over the top Huffington post article on Dec 7 doubling down on why we should still believe Jackie and repeating the gang rape story - the Phi Psis have a libel claim against this ass hat, no question. I will not link his tripe, but you can google it.
I would like to know more about John Foubert and his little axe grinding agenda. Why did you leave UVa, John? And how much does your little 1 in 4 organization benefit from all of this? Did I hear you say you get multi-million dollar grants from the Federal Government to promote this? Did you say that you go on the lecture circuit and make big bucks selling your snake oil?
I could go on, but John Foubert is another stirrer in the teapot tempest. There are so many players in this little drama, all with their self promotion money making agendas - John Foubert and one in four need to be silenced and a stake driven through their collective hearts. They are parasites. Making money off of a false narrative, which is being promoted for reasons too myriad to recite - everyone’s got a self-serving agenda.
Bottom line, if only 00.03% of college women are being raped, as established by the actual numbers from 2000-2012 (see Emily Yoffe’s Slate article for all the numbers), then One in Four doesn’t have anything to promote. Foubert’s organization needs to have villains and victims - there aren’t enough villains, so he’ll create a few. . .
John Foubert’s official bio -
“John D. Foubert, Ph.D. is an interdisciplinary scholar whose research focuses on the prevention of sexual assault, bystander intervention, the harms of pornography, and college student development.
Foubert is the National President of One in Four and Professor of Higher Education and Student Affairs at Oklahoma State University. He earned his undergraduate degree in Psychology and Sociology from the College of William and Mary, his Master’s in Psychology from the University of Richmond, and his Ph.D. in College Student Personnel from the University of Maryland.
Dr. Foubert has written 9 books, 7 of which deal with the prevention of sexual assault. His federally funded research has led to several dozen peer reviewed articles in some of the most respected journals in both Education and Psychology on issues such as sexual assault prevention and the connection between pornography use and bystander intervention. He has given over 200 professional presentations to conferences, universities, community and military organizations.
In 1998, he and a group of colleagues founded One in Four. One in Four is a non-profit organization dedicated to ending rape through means shown to be most effective through scientific research. During the last two decades, his rape prevention programs have been used by countless universities, state health departments, and military units worldwide.
Dr. Foubert has testified before Congress about rape in the military and has been called upon by the White House and the Pentagon to share his expertise in rape prevention. He consults regularly with the military and with colleges about how to apply research-based approaches to significantly lower rape in their communities. He is frequently interviewed by the media and has been a featured guest on the NPR shows Talk of the Nation and Morning Edition.”
12/11/2023 9:47 am
Someone above asked why the friends hadn’t spoken out until recently. I did see a local virginia interview with “Andy.” He said it took him a while to figure out it was him the article was referring to…..considering the names and inaccurate depiction of events.
12/11/2023 9:54 am
@Fabricio thanks for the clarification. The facts and the “facts” are flying faster than fur in a cat fight so it’s hard to keep the time line straight.
12/11/2023 9:59 am
@Zeplander 7:47 - good cath there. Also @ Fabricio:
And if Jackie was well-known enough on campus as a rape survivor activist to be recognized on sight by the alleged bottle-thrower at the bar, it makes no sense -ZERO - that she would allow the savagely brutal ritual gang rapers at the fraternity ( or, oops, wherever she’s claiming today the crimes against her occurred) to continue to maraud freely on campus and remain in a position to do to other campus women what they’d supposedly done to her merely that she might retain the protective cloak of anonymity.
She herself had rejected the cloak of anonymity by becoming a prominent campus rape activist, So where the heck are the damn charges so that these horribly violent rapists can be stopped?
Her excuse that it was fear or shame or trauma which required her to continue ensuring that her tormentors remained unidentified and unpunished - risking other girls’ safety in the process of her ongoing refusal to go to the police - just does not hold water if everybody else there knows who she is and what her story is well enough that perfect strangers are pelting her with bottles outside of bars.
12/11/2023 10:00 am
That’s should be catch in first line. Aargh!
12/11/2023 10:11 am
Allahpundit at Hotair discusses the various theories to this story and fills in several gaps. Links go into moderation, so use google.
12/11/2023 10:11 am
Question for anyone taking the pulse of the #IstandwithJackie / “1 out of 4!” / social justice hate brigade… has a collective response coalesced yet? There will be no apology, of course. I’m just curious to see how much they’ll double down on the agenda… yes, Jackie made it up, but that’s IRRELEVANT.
I think this is the catalyst that’s going to topple their bullshit once and for all. A bigger spotlight could not have been thrown on their castle built on sand rhetoric.
I’m already anticipating the lulz we’ll get from the Jezebel hack Ana Merlan and her ilk.
12/11/2023 10:15 am
Now it appears that Jackie has falsely accused at least two identifiable men. Drew the lifeguard and the high school friend she used to Catfish Randall.
12/11/2023 10:22 am
There is only one kind of lie, it’s apolitical, and it cripples the best of intentions.
Modern Liberalism: In charge of everything, responsible for nothing.
12/11/2023 10:39 am
Why has no reporter asked the 3 friends how Jackie was found. 1 mile from the fraternities? How did Jackie get to the 1st year dorms where they found her? Was it in front of the dorm they lived in? Why aren’t these questions being asked?
12/11/2023 10:45 am
A couple of thoughts…
RIp this Joint at 5:53 am…, ” And this confuses Rubin Erdely. Why? She doesn’t seem to upset with the concept of lying in general, her only issue seems to be lying without an agenda.”
I also agree with Richard Aubrey above, “The left dislikes intermediating institutions. Like churches, Boy Scouts, JayCee, and fraternities. That which gives the individual power and support other than/against The State is inimical to The State. So when this came up, the left jumped on it as one more opportunity”
What is most interesting to me is the blatant coordination of these lies from Ferguson, Amnesty, Benghazi, IRS…man I could go on for pages. Just read on Drudge that they gave “Hands Up Don’t Shoot” a government job. Really?!
What is the real story here is that, like Ferguson, it provides a window into the actual sausage making of who and how “fake but accurate” on a grand scale is accomplished. Who the players are and how they coordinate to mob, loot and burn down western civilization.
12/11/2023 10:45 am
BT
Exactly. Sabrina said it was in the shadows of Phi Psi. That is a very long way from the 1st year dorms.
12/11/2023 10:45 am
Female UVA Grad ’86 - couldn’t have said it any better.
Will ANYONE in the Uva administration at any point defend the institution & its students in ANY way? Your house was almost burned down by this fabulist and her shameless promoter. Where are you?
I’m thinking it will take influential donors like Paul Tudor Jones to start screaming to get this dumpster fire in order. Come on Paul, we need you.
12/11/2023 11:14 am
Rubin Erdely will be just fine, just as Lena Dunham will be just fine. The Left doesn’t care about facts, just narratives. Rubin Erdely will “be toast” just about as much as Al Sharpton, and others of his ilk.
12/11/2023 11:33 am
I feel sorry for Jackie. After reading this blog, it is clear to me she’s no Lena Dunham. If we want to cast blame, it should go to Erdly and the University woman who gave her Jackie’s name (don’t have time to go back, I thought it was Renda, but that was the friend…whatever).
After reading this blog and thread, my thought is that this was an just a series of unfortunate young and stupids from a girl who was homesick, heartsick and scared that she was going to get in trouble because of her grades dropping.
Please don’t make her the sacrificial lamb for women crying rape. She didn’t point at a real individual. This was an imaginary event where no one would have been hurt if Erdly had not stepped on the scene.
She didn’t go to the police
She didn’t go to the campus
She didn’t name names other than that of her imaginary boyfriend (hard to give jail time and so what if Mr. Imaginary goes to prison for the rest of his life?)
She just wanted Randall’s attention and did some really, really stupid things to get it. Then she doubled down to get out of trouble with her mom in the room because her grades were falling.
Once Jackie was identified by team WH, they brought in the big guns, starting with the Rolling Stone, then the candlelight vigils, and all the talk shows.
At least that’s how I see it. Oh sure, someone could have gotten hurt…but it was never her intention to do anything other than get Randall’s attention.
12/11/2023 11:41 am
NY Observer has a new article just out that indicates “Legal” was in a flux when all this went down. A perfect storm of lovesick teenager + activist feminist + sympathetic fact checker + editors who didn’t want to appear unsympathetic.
“Now it appears that one of the systems designed specifically to question challenging material before it gets to print was at least in flux during the critical period when this story most needed engaged eyes on it.”
12/11/2023 11:43 am
Emily Renda is the UVA employee who pitch Jackie’s story to Rolling Stones.
12/11/2023 11:49 am
Female UVA Grad ’86 — Excellent example!
Another quote, which is probably applicable to the staff of Rolling Stone and the entire administrative apparatus of UVA:
‘It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.’ — Upton Sinclair
12/11/2023 11:51 am
one last thought…the thing about lying in the broken glass…it’s a weird detail. After all, she wasn’t bleeding. The friends saw no injuries. Did that come from Jackie?? It almost seems like a hat tip from Erdly to Stephen Glass. Probably not….but certainly a weird coincidence.
12/11/2023 12:11 pm
Very, very meta.
12/11/2023 12:12 pm
Anonymous 1211: Very, very meta.
The post above this that says the same thing is me being inept. Sorry.
12/11/2023 12:39 pm
I don’t understand why so many people still, in the absence of any real evidence, keep insisting that .”..but SOMTHING™ must have happened!!!”
Why? Why, when none of this young lady’s other claims are panning out, must “Something™” have happened?
Sometimes people just lie, and lie, and lie, and there’s not a grain of truth to it. Read or watch “The Woman Who Wasn’t There”. Tania Head’s lies about being being a WTC “survivor” were even more elaborate and widely-believed than Jackie’s. And she carried her “story” around even more publicly and for a longer time.
I never hear anyone today defend her by crying, “…but SOMETHING™ must have happened!” She was just a pathological liar with a perfectly (too perfect, in hindsight) horrible, tragic story to tell, a heroic story of survival that everyone wanted to hear, and most people were afraid to question.
By the way, like Jackie, she was allegedly diagnosed with PTSD — who wouldn’t be, with such a perfectly horrible and tragic story to tell…? These days, it seems like PTSD is a coveted “label” for fake victims wanting to put their stories of horror “above questioning”.
12/11/2023 12:40 pm
“Jackie” doesn’t serve that much sympathy. The fact that it hasn’t produced something as tragic as a “Tom Robinson” figure (remember “To Kill A Mockingbird”) is just fortunate circumstance here. But don’t forget all the future real rape victims whose lives will be made more difficult because of her “girl crying wolf” antics - - hers is no victimless crime.
12/11/2023 12:41 pm
Thoughtful and intelligent post. Thoughtful, intelligent and interesting comments. And it all made me very thankful for my drama free late 50’s, early 60’s young adulthood.
12/11/2023 12:50 pm
[…] Bradley, one of the first significant “Jackie” skeptics, summarized the current situation […]
12/11/2023 1:12 pm
My first thought when reading the RS story was “This sounds like a typically anvilicious SVU episode.” So I did some googling. ‘Girl Dishonored’ (serial gang-rapes at a frat) aired on April 24, 2013. Now, the timeline for Jackie isn’t entirely clear to me, but if she started at UVA in 2012 (“Four weeks into UVA’s 2012 school year, 18-year-old Jackie was crushing it at college.”), then a meeting taking place with the dean at the end of her freshman year would have been circa May/June 2013. Just a few weeks later. Something to think about.
12/11/2023 1:30 pm
Anonymous 1211 - completely agree with foolish girl telling harmless lies (she knew UVA would never actually investigate, so who is hurt?) caught up in Susan Erdely’s Excellent Adventure.
I don’t think I would criticize her anyway, but I do keep in mind - her dad is a retired military contractor. From his Facebook page he has lots of buddies who operate in Baghdad and Bagram, and if he decided to go all Liam Neeson on me, I wouldn’t have time to post a good-bye.
Well. I might be kidding.
12/11/2023 1:40 pm
People should not worry about Erdman’s future. Two words:
Al Sharpton.
12/11/2023 2:20 pm
Emily Renda is now a UVa employee working on sexual assault. But, she just graduated in 2014. She says she was raped as a student (2010 I’d presume) when a guy walked her home and then came to her room.
A much more plausible scenario for sure. Erdely could have done her story on Renda, but her story was nowhere near as attention grabbing as Jackie’s.
Plus, sexually assaulted student now working with the school to improve response to student sexual assaults doesn’t fit Erdely’s narrative of UVa not caring about rape.
12/11/2023 2:23 pm
[…] Source […]
12/11/2023 2:27 pm
Achillea, excellent research! Thank you. Definitely something to consider. It just gets stranger…
12/11/2023 2:45 pm
Renda’s story isn’t very plausible either (according to her own accounts, spread over different places).
She claims she met a guy at a party and he raped her in his dorm room after she went back there with him. By her account his attack included strangulation to the point where she lost conciousness and suffered injuries to her neck and torso. Yet she “resisted formally reporting and seeking disciplinary action after the assault because I fixated on the fact that my assailant had parents who cared about him”.
Now how would she even know that about his parents (or even care after such a brutal attack), given that she had only met him that evening, and, one would think, wouldn’t exactly consent to have a cup of coffee with him the next day?
Renda later spoke about seeing her assailant on campus, but feeling secure about it because of all the support she’d received since the attack. Which also means that despite her connections on campus, and knowing and speaking out about the need to report such offenders, she still left a violent psychopath roaming the grounds of U.Va. where it was likely he would attack and possibly maim other students.
It makes you wonder who the worst actors in this story actually are.
12/11/2023 3:03 pm
The reality is Jackie’s story is almost certainly a lie. Every single fact contradicts what she claimed happened. She didn’t get “some” details wrong, she got “all” details wrong. What likely happened is Jackie had voluntary oral sex with one or more guys then felt guilty and embarrassed about her slutty behavior, so she made up a rape story. Thus, she isn’t a victim, but a perpetrator of false criminal charges.
12/11/2023 3:09 pm
Which is exactly what happened in another fake rape case at Hofstra a few years ago - just Google Danmell Ndonye.
12/11/2023 3:22 pm
FrancisChalk
All the evidence today points to a fake date (i.e. catfish), a fake email account, a fake rape all to get the attention of “Randall” who she had a crush on and he did not return the affection. Later when she meets with the Dean in late Spring 2013, she makes up the fake gang rape story to keep from getting kicked out of UVA. The more she tells the story, the more detail she adds.
12/11/2023 4:06 pm
It just struck me that if “Jackie” was the queen of rape activists in her high school she may have found the competition at UVA little stiffer and decided to pad her resume. Making the cove of Rolling Stone is a career maker.
12/11/2023 4:10 pm
“The more she tells the story, the more detail she adds.”
Which is kind of the opposite of PTSD, where the trauma gets fixed in your head and you WISH you could change or even erase the memories.
12/11/2023 6:16 pm
Glenn,
Do you have a cite for the high school claim?
12/11/2023 6:36 pm
“Andy, Randall and Cindy had just been outed as the world’s biggest assholes (falsely, it seems), and none made an attempt to salvage their reputation? The fact that all 3 of them kept their mouths shut — no YikYak, no Facebook, no calling the school paper — for 3 weeks blows my mind, I am having trouble believing it entirely. At least one is a member of a fraternity — the school shuts down ALL Greeks and he still stays silent? No tip-off to Phi Psi just to say hey, I think I can help get you guys off the hook?”
@NFL_Fan - per Tom Maguire above, it sounds like the friends did in fact set the record straight on a lot that conversation with those around them. They’ve also managed to do so in a way that they remain anonymous, at least to the public. These 3 friends are presumably identifiable to quite a lot of people at UVA, but they won’t be associated with this story when someone looks them up on Google. Social media activity on this subject would jeopardize their anonymity.
As for disclosing the really explosive information - the information in the Post pointing to the conclusion that Jackie was catfishing and that her sexual assault story is a related hoax - I can see why it would take some time for them to come forward.
These 3 people are students on a campus where people have been protesting over this issue. We’ve seen the “rape denialist” claims that got flung at Richard for his initial post. How’d you like to be dealing with that from other students as a 20-year old on a college campus? One can also speculate that one or all of these friends could have talked with Jackie to try to get her to recant her story before they publicly contradicted her. They are (or were) friends of hers, and it would be natural to feel some protectiveness toward a friend or acquaintance who comes across as a worryingly troubled person in this catfishing story.
That’s not to say that I would have defended Jackie’s friends if they remained silent for years without correcting the record - merely that a few weeks is a reasonable amount of time for their stories to come out.
12/11/2023 7:52 pm
^^^ Fair enough, Dave. My thinking was once their rep was shot via the article, they would immediately come out swinging to defend themselves. Props to them if they did in fact show restraint and patience.
In other news, anyone read @JohnFoubert? 2 hours ago: “Inconsistencies? Nothing to question that she was gang raped.” HE STILL BELIEVES HER. Or realizes he’s paid to.
12/11/2023 8:07 pm
No, that’s why I said if. Lots of BMOC’s and BWOC’s arrive on college campuses with a rep and fall flat on their face.
12/11/2023 10:00 pm
I never believed Jackie’s story. The idea that a prestigious fraternity at a major university would use gang rape as an initiation ritual, especially considering the current prevailing attitudes regarding sexual assault on campus, was too absurd. Women like Jackie make me very, very angry.
12/11/2023 10:42 pm
It’s interesting that both Sabrina Rubin Erdely and Richard Bradley worked with hoaxer Stephen “Shattered Glass” Glass earlier in their careers. Bradley learned a lesson in humility and sanity from the experience.
Judging from the four separate incidents in the Erdely’s article of glass shattering, Stephen Glass had an important effect on her as well, but what it was remains visible only through a glass darkly.
12/11/2023 10:56 pm
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/12/10/rolling_stone_sabrina_rubin_erdely_the_washington_post_inches_closer_to.html
There’s a link to an 8 minute audio interview with SRE explaining her vetting of the rape allegations in the fraternity house, located about 2/3 through the article. With what we know now, what jumps out?
12/12/2023 9:22 am
Maybe I’ve been watching too many TV crime shows, and this could be mere coincidence, but As soon as I read the text to Jackie’s three friends I thought the tone sounded off for a college junior, including his characterization of “this super smart” hot freshman. Interesting that Ms Eredely uses that exact same phrase when she describes why she selected UVA for her story, in part because it is a school with “super-smart kids” (from Paul Fahri’s November 28th interview in the Washington Post. Remote possibility, but could there be a chance that Jackie and Rubin Erdely actually colluded to create this narrative for the larger purpose of highlighting what they view as a rape culture on campuses? Some unknown person was participating in those text messages between Jackie and her friends. It will be very interesting to discover if that person was Jackie herself or some other individual. Truth can be stranger than fiction.
12/12/2023 9:48 am
The curious thing is why Jackie came up with such a fantastical story. I guess since she is surrounded by people who are willing to believe the worst without question - particularly about white, hetero men - she never reflected on it’s implausibility. Part of me wonders whether she actually believes this happened to her - like a “false memory” or something. I remember back in the 1980s people were “remembering” - with the proper prodding - how they were forced to participate in satanic orgies in their elementary school classrooms.
12/13/2014 7:41 pm
I strongly agree with Female UVA grad: the self-aggrandizing “survivor” advocates probably played a much bigger role in this fiasco than has been reported so far. Especially Renda, various deans, etc. Also, I suspect that Sullivan herself is also deeply invested in the “rape culture” narrative; it’s part of her base. Ironic, that Jackie and SRE ultimately targeted their enablers. Then again, maybe not so ironic at all…since there was a larger, “social change” agenda (the great “need” for which seems to be Sullivan’s only hope of keeping her job).