Resignations at Rolling Stone?
Posted on December 9th, 2014 in Uncategorized | 99 Comments »
The New York Observer’s Ken Kurson finds a source who tells the paper that at least one editor at Rolling Stone, deputy managing editor Sean Woods, has offered his resignation—and that editor-in-chief and owner Jann Wenner has turned it down.
Wenner denies the report, but I suspect that Wenner would deny it regardless of its veracity. (Kurson finds a second source to confirm it.)
According to the source, Rolling Stone is right now planning to assemble a “re-reporting project” akin to the one the New York Times put together in the wake of the Jayson Blair fabulism scandal that will head to UVa both to sort through the errors of the story and to tell readers what actually happened.
Good luck with that—you can’t possibly do accurate reporting given everything that’s happened: It’s like stirring up the muck at the bottom of a crystal clear pond and then trying to see your reflection. And can you imagine going down to the U.Va. campus now and saying, “Hi—I’m a reporter from Rolling Stone magazine…” I mean-do you think Jackie’s going to talk to them? her friends? The fraternity members?
Me neither.
Here’s a section of the article that doesn’t make much sense to me:
What about the fact-checking?
The source knows Rolling Stone Senior Editor/Head Factchecker Coco McPherson well and claims that she is a “stickler who errs on the side of caution,” a claim backed up by Mr. [Matt] Taibbi, who remarked that the process is so intense “it usually takes longer to fact-check a Rolling Stone feature than it does to write it. Each review is like an IRS audit.”
But any fact-checker that good would raise a dozen red flags with this story. Which means that either McPherson isn’t as good as they say, or she raised concerns and they were overruled.
My guess: Coco McPherson was blinded by ideology; like Sabrina Rubin Erdely, she wanted to believe in this story. What makes me say this? McPherson’s tweet of November 20th:
So proud of @SabrinaRErdely and @RollingStone and the incredibly brave young women of UVA for coming forward http://rol.st/11Cs0z8
Never mind that the central woman in the story did not actually “come forward.” That tweet—”so proud”—is the tweet of an advocate and a cheerleader, not a fact checker. If you are so proud of these women merely for speaking anonymously to your magazine, are you really going to look at them with your most critical eye?
The Observer indirectly touches on this point, writing:
The Observer raised an idea that has been mentioned in some corners of the press”—i.e., this blog——”that Rolling Stone was credulous about such an intense story because from factcheckers to editors to writers they are predisposed to believe the worst about fraternity brothers at an elite university. Indeed, Ms. McPherson initially defended the story and its methods, taking to Twitter to point to an example in which other news organizations did not identify or interview alleged campus rapists.
The tweet in question refers to a New York Times story about an alleged sexual assault at Columbia; the description of the assault is vague, and you couldn’t possibly identify an alleged attacker from it. It is not even close to analogous to Rolling Stone’s story.
McPherson also retweeted this (combined) tweet from Rolling Stone writer Tim Dickinson:
…I’m appalled that people are turning a story about a public institution sitting on an explosive allegation of gang rape on campus into a conversation about ethics in gang-rape journalism.
The Observer’s Kurson adds that his source “wasn’t buying that “predisposition [to believe]….”
Nonsense. You have a deeply compromised fact-checker who’s “proud” of the “incredibly brave young women of UVA;” a fact checker who is “appalled” that anyone would ask legitimate questions about the slipshod reporting of a very sensitive story.
You have editors who have bought into the ideology that you never question a woman who says she’s been raped—an ideology that, while it may be valid for friends and counselors, has nothing to do with the conduct of journalism. And as a result, they compromised the most basic rules of the craft—things you wouldn’t do on your high school paper.
And you have a writer who went searching for just the right campus on which to “upend the patriarchy.” On the same day that CoCo McPherson sent out her pride tweet, Sabrina Rubin Erdely tweeted:
Nov 20
I’ve passed along your msgs of strength to Jackie. I know she appreciates it. Awed by her bravery & that of all the Uva women who spoke out.
It’s just one big lovefest between the women of UVA and the staff of Rolling Stone.
So don’t tell me that there wasn’t a predisposition to believe this story. That is self-delusional bunk, the kind of lazy, uncritical thinking that got Rolling Stone into this mess in the first place.
99 Responses
12/9/2024 5:36 pm
Richard,
The New York Times coverage of the RS debacle continues to the relevance of your question about the newspaper. What indeed is going on there?
Their story today on the rape hoax leads with a photograph of what appears to be the UVa Phi Psi fraternity house and has this for the lede:
“In less than a week, the story of a brutal rape at a University of Virginia fraternity house has turned from a rallying cry against sexual assault on campus to the spine of a divisive political debate playing out on the now-predictable platforms of social media and the 24-hour news cycle.”
Don’t the members of that fraternity deserve a break at this point? And under the circumstances, is it appropriate to refer to this as “the story of an alleged rape” rather than the story of an ALLEGED rape?
The Times and Ms. Steinhauer seem very reluctant to back away from the tale originally reported in RS.
12/9/2024 5:54 pm
This may be (yet another) minor error in the RS story - I don’t think Phi Psi is technically on campus, so that would mean they didn’t get past the headline ( “A Rape on Campus”) without an error. I could be wrong but I’ve learned to trust my gut vs RS.
12/9/2024 6:16 pm
Bing
12/9/2024 5:36 pm
they’ve gone past caring
12/9/2024 6:16 pm
Wahoofacter,
You are correct. None of the fraternity houses are on campus. Some are owned by the university, but phi psi is not one of them.
12/9/2024 6:26 pm
Richard, I admire your work and your thorough skepticism. I disagree with you, however, with the point you are making with regard to the NYT story about the Columbia case.
Together with the link to the student newspaper that reported first about the case, the accused person was easily identified on campus. Eventually his name was leaked to the press and subsequent reporting by Time Magazine, WaPo, the NYT again, NYmag and other outlets have never shown any sign of fact-checking at all or the attempt to contact the accused. So far the only source for her story I could identify is Sulkowicz herself.
There are many questions to be asked, but since Sulkowicz became a national hero, nobody seems to dare to ask questions at all. TimeMag for example still reposts Sulkowicz’s video from May everywhere. Here she claims that her “rapist” is “still on campus” while other media reported that he was studying abroad that semester, something Sulkowicz herself says in another interview.
She repeatedly calls him a “serial rapist” (one time even “my serial rapist”, never heard that before, try to google it). He was never accused of having raped other women, however. There were other accusations of groping and a girl friend that cried after sex, but the only source I could find for that is, again, Sulkowicz. She frequently mentions a fourth woman, who allegedly was assaulted by the same man, but guess who the source for this information is?
The whole story does have a powerful, Erdely-like narrative as well, easily believed and re-reported by so many:
A big powerful institution (Columbia) lets a “serial rapist” run free on campus and prey on innocent women. Major support for him comes from people employed at Columbia’s Office of Gender Based Misconduct, which we know are usually vicious women-hating MRAs. When she goes to the police (1.5 years after the alleged rape) she gets abused and re-victimized again, especially by the obnoxious Assistant DA from NY SVU, who actually tries to talk to her and get her to come to his office to tell her story. After the student newspaper publishes his name, she decides to withdraw her complaint with the police and to carry her mattress instead.
That’s a story that made national headlines and no major newspaper has ever questioned it.
The way the campaign in this case has been orchestrated so far reminds one very much of the way Erdely handled her story. You may want to read up on the activist’s tactics here: http://bwog.com/2014/12/04/on-tape-how-sexual-assault-activism-works/. There is even a handbook that describes this kind of activist-embedded journalism.
I do agree that it is a different case and there might be some truth to it, but it is a case that should deserve some skepticism, too, and most of all, some fact checking that has never taken place as far as I know.
12/9/2024 6:39 pm
Something doesn’t make sense about all this and perhaps it’s that I’ve never worked as a journalist. I would think there would be a minimum level of fact checking even on stories with a single source.
For instance, wouldn’t it at least be checked that the reaction of Jackie’s friends as published in the article matched up with their actual reactions? It seems like they’re telling a different story now than was in the article. And of course that’s just one among many examples.
Also, you were the first to say this piece didn’t pass the smell test. Others seem to have voiced this same opinion, perhaps independently, perhaps emboldened by you. Either way, it was something that caught fire for a reason - many of the events as described in the article felt hackneyed, contrived and plain fake.
I just find it difficult to believe that no one at Rolling Stone had these same doubts and questions. How did an intelligent group of people let this article get published?
12/9/2024 6:43 pm
Albert,
You’re entirely correct. It was a total failure of journalism and integrity from top to bottom, utterly unexcusable and unexplainable. It shows the depths to which left-wing media sources have fallen.
12/9/2024 7:10 pm
Albert,
Would you have at least check out that there was a “side” exit to the Phi Psi house? Isn’t this a basic fact that can be check with out having to interview anyone?
12/9/2024 7:17 pm
I would HIGHLY recommend that people follow this guy on Twitter for UVA Rape coverage. He is currently annihilating Sabrina, Coco, Sean Woods and Will Dana. His last 5 Tweets are a riot.
https://twitter.com/TheDailyBail
12/9/2024 7:45 pm
There are some major differences between the UVA story and the Columbia story. Just to itemize:
1. “Mattress Girl” (as she is known) had a consensual sexual relationship with her alleged assailant. In the course of having normal intercourse, he penetrated her anally, allegedly without permission.
2. Six months later, she met another woman who had also had a relationship with the alleged assailant, who was accused of being “emotionally abusive.” At that point they filed a complaint with Columbia claiming sexual assault (the anal penetration, that is.) Those two were later joined by a third party who claimed the alleged assailant tried to kiss her at a frat mixer.
3. The NYPD looked into it and did not proceed. Columbia held a hearing and the alleged assailant was exonerated.
4. The woman, as an essay in performance art (part of her senior thesis) has been schlepping a mattress around campus to draw attention to her plight and to the fact that her alleged rapist is still attending Columbia.
I think the two cases are completely incommensurable.
12/9/2024 7:50 pm
My overall point is that I don’t buy that a biased journalist wrote an article and then a biased fact checker fact checked it and then it was published in the magazine.
I know very little about the magazine industry but I would assume that a piece like this would have had to pass through numerous hands before being published.
There are basic failures like deciding not to get comments from the men accused. Then there are errors and/or omissions to the checking of facts. And then on top of that there’s the overall tone of the finished piece which has to have raised a few eyebrows. Everyone was afraid to say it publicly but once Richard did, again, it caught fire for a reason. The piece felt fake.
Maybe I’m naive but it’s hard to believe that such a combination of failures all happened at once. I think there may be more to the story. I just can’t believe Rolling Stone would be so incompetent. I’m a fan of the magazine and I’m not here to push any agenda or to criticize the “left-wing” press. This all just doesn’t add up to me.
12/9/2024 8:47 pm
Richard,
Where does one learn the do’s and don’ts of journalism. You appear to be in command of a number of them but your bio doesn’t reveal formal education in it. Could you perhaps direct us to a resource?
12/9/2024 10:44 pm
Richard-
I have been following all of your blogs on the UVA story. You have my heartfelt gratitude for being brave enough to doubt the RS article at the outset. For me, the underlying issue is much more personal than question of unethical journalism practices. You see, I have a son in the Phi Kappa Psi chapter at UVA.
I cannot put into words how difficult the last few weeks have been for him, his friends and my family. Professors shamed the fraternity members in class, death threats were posted on Facebook, cinderblocks where thrown through windows while members were sleeping in the house, and grades (along with prospects for law school, graduate school, and medical school) have suffered.
These young men were abandoned by their classmates and by UVA. By suspending other fraternities and sororities, the number of those angry at Phi Psi only increased. Not once did anyone from the Board of Visitors or President Sullivan ask the students, faculty members and protestors to refrain from taking action. Instead, they quickly apologized to Jackie, accepting her story without ever saying, “let’s wait until the facts are in.”
Half of the current members of the Phi Psi were not in the fraternity in the fall of 2012. No one made that distinction on the grounds. It was guilt by association. After all, without any source checking, the RS told the world they all participated in raping girls as part of their initiation.
As far as I know, no one has issued any sort of apology directly to the fraternity or its members. Everyone was too afraid of being scorned to come to the defense of these men before you initiated the offensive for fact finding and source verification. I guess people are still too afraid of appearing unsympathetic to rape survivors to support these students and apologize.
The Rolling Stone, the University and it’s faculty, advocates for survivors, Jackie’s friends, most of the media and the public seem to think that it does not matter if there was an actual rape in this particular case or that it does not matter at which fraternity it may have taken place. Let me tell you, they are wrong. It does matter. It matters a great deal to the fine young men in Phi Psi and their families.
Thank you for advocating for the pursuit of a fair and unbiased story. I can’t help but tear up every time I think about how much worse this nightmare could have been if it had not been for you and the others that quickly questioned the story.
By the way, I wholeheartedly support the firing of every person at RS that had the opportunity and ethical duty to prevent the firestorm that was caused by their shoddy journalism.
12/9/2024 10:46 pm
I think it was Jonah Goldberg (who was also ripped as a rape apologist for his column raising questions about the RS story) that said if CBS had a conservative in its newsroom to look at the TANG story before it aired, Dan Rather and Mary Mapes would still have jobs at the network.
The writer, editor, fact-checker at RS should be out of a job (and never be given recommendations to practice law).
Those that were quick to accuse Richard and others that raised questions as rape apologists or idiots should take a year off and think about their career choice.
12/9/2024 11:01 pm
Grateful Mom
Very touching comment. I enjoyed reading it. I am a 1988 UVa grad and had 3 good friends in Phi Psi who graduated the same year. I had assumed that current Phi Psi members were being shamed by professors, but you are the first source that has confirmed it. As you probably know, the exact same thing happened in the Duke case, with a few players getting so upset that they walked out of class.
And there were no repercussions for any of the professors.
My advice — sue the University, sue Rolling Stone, sue Sabrina, and sue Jackie.
That is your only recourse for justice after the nightmare ends. Good luck to you.
12/9/2024 11:10 pm
This whole thing has become just so absurd…
I hope that the public and the media at large will keep the pressure on and hold Rolling Stone accountable.
I’ve found out that SRE’s husband is a lawyer, so guessing her behavior has a lot to do with what hubby is telling her. It’s legally sound advice, but only reaffirming what appears to be a morally bankrupt individual who was all too willing to destroy people but has now slithered off into darkness & may or may not ever show an ounce of contrition.
Either way- she’s finished as a “journalist” and gets to join her classmate Stephen Glass- whom she once roundly mocked and seemed to enjoy his fall from grace- in the annals of those who truly disgraced the profession.
12/9/2024 11:11 pm
Just to be clear, I am suggesting that Phi Psi file suit — I wasn’t implying that you or your family should take on that burden. Again, best of luck to you, your son, and his friends.
As I wrote yesterday, the UVa rape activists think nothing of having named the wrong fraternity. Don’t let them get away with it. Please.
12/9/2024 11:19 pm
Re-reporting? This late? I seem to remember that in the Jayson Blair situation, team was assembled the moment they figured out that not only had he lifted passages from other journos, but he hadn’t even been to the places on his datelines. The team was formed immediately and I think they reported on it a week or so later. The point was to report whatever happened, warts and all.
If RS is just now forming a team…what took them so long? Other media have already interviewed Jackie, some friends, rape counselors who knew Jackie, “Drew”, (The Daily Mail even claims to have statements from Jackie’s dad!?)….
Is the RS’s “re-reporting’s” purpose to show warts-and-all, or to shore up and salvage the story/narrative? Or both?
12/10/2024 12:09 am
As long as some are playing the game of who doubted the Rolling Stone story first. I didn’t even get through the first 10 paragraphs before crying BULLSHIT as loud as I could in my office.
And I went straight to the comments section at Rolling Stone and started battling the social justice star chamber. “California Mom” was the worst of the bunch. I fought her with facts, sarcasm, ridicule, impersonation — every tool at my disposal. Over the course of 4 days I had at least 4 or 5 different screen-names — I told her I was a journalist sent to Charlottesville to uncover discrepancies in the story, and she flipped her lid.
I was just so absolutely sure from the first read that a substantial part of Jackie’s story was complete and utter bullshit.
12/10/2024 12:28 am
Well, here is some news.
Rolling Stone editor Will Dana just followed me on Twitter. I’ve been blasting his ass for 2 weeks. I guess he wants to keep an eye on the enemy.
Just search for ‘Daily Bail’ on Twitter or google, or you can find the LINK to my Twitter account a few comments up. And yes, it’s actually my account, though I didn’t admit that above.
1988 UVa Grad and Echols Scholar
12/10/2024 12:42 am
@Albert - I agree with you, and a couple thoughts on the fact checking.
First, the RS article uses the “1 in 5 college women is sexually assaulted” stat without any qualification or questioning of it. Less than 30 minutes searching on Google brings up plenty of credible discussion of why that statistic should be heavily qualified if it’s used at all. Emily Yoffe discusses it in her piece at Slate this week, and she’s far from the first person to do so. It’s a significant tell, at least to me, that a fact-checker and editor would accept that stat as used in the RS article.
Second, the overwhelming view in the sexual assault victim support and advocacy community seems to be that doubting the story of anyone who states that she is a victim/survivor is something akin to psychological torture, or at best a borderline cruel attack on the individual’s character. One of the pieces at Slate by Rosin and a co-author quoted a member of a UVA support/advocacy group directly expressing this view of unquestioning acceptance - admittedly in what seems to be a personal support context.
Here’s where I’ll move to more speculative ground - suppose that both the author and the fact checker live in personal circles where that view is prevalent, which seems to be the case. Then suppose that personal view influences their professional judgement, on what also happens to be an explosive story sure to attract attention. At that point, what are the odds that a male editor at RS - who is likely sympathetic to the ideological point of this article in any case, and certainly wants to publish an important, influential piece sure to receive attention - is going to fight hard to verify this story at the risk of being viewed as the “rape denialist” within the RS editorial operation?
I’ve never been a journalist, so perhaps I’m off as to how this reporting would have progressed. It looks to me, though like a classic case study of how groupthink in an organization leads to a disastrous decision. It’s a particular example of something that’s certainly not unique to journalism.
12/10/2024 12:57 am
@Albert - rather than just saying “I agree with you”, I meant to say that you raise interesting questions about how something like this happens, which is my comment above. My take is basically that the development of this story got momentum, and then nobody at RS was willing to stop the snowball as it rolled down the hill.
12/10/2024 1:47 am
“Appalled” by people asking for clarification? Ugh. Anyone who uses that kind of dramatic language is clearly invested in emotion and doesn’t care about checking facts.
Do you have a tiwtter yet, Richard?
12/10/2024 1:48 am
Been following this closely. Thanks for the initial post that started this scrutiny. It has caused examination of many relevant issues.
One of the many reasons I thought the story was total bullshit is this: what kind of monster would report on, know of, read a story of a nine person gang rape on a bed of glass complete with punching in the face …. And then be so cavalier about the thousands of years of jail time that were not \ are not being served? Even Erdely was just like oh yeah no one has reported it and everyone is free to do as they please. Come on. Total bull
12/10/2024 1:51 am
@ Pierre @ SPMoore8
Sure, there are differences between the cases, Pierre’s argument, however, seems to be that there are some serious lapses in the way journalists treat the mattress girl: No fact checking, single source only, huge media frenzy, no real reporting on it.
Not saying she lies, but I have no clue, whether she is saying the truth or not. Plus: She really gained a lot from going public other than Jackie: She became a celebrity and critically acclaimed artist (NYT).
Still worthwhile looking into.
12/10/2024 1:54 am
Sabrina:
If you started questioning the story so soon, it obviously proves you hate women.
Or Anna Merlen would consider you an idiot. And a woman hater.
Please report to Party HQ for your Two Minute Hate.
12/10/2024 2:06 am
Also, Dave’s post got me thinking about the one in five stat. I’m no expert. But…
Ohio state for example has 31500 female students. Let’s round down to 30k. That would be 6k rapes a year, on campus??? Less if you only count one per college career … But still like a significant number of rapes EVERY DAY at just one school. If you added all the other schools there would be such a crazy number … I haven’t done the math but could there be a rape an hour or even a rape every few minutes on college campuses? I don’t know … But I did not see of or hear of a single rape in my 7 years of undergrad and grad school (I’m sure attacks happened that I didn’t hear of but I guarantee it wasn’t 1/5). To me doesn’t pass the common sense test.
12/10/2024 2:07 am
I meant to put my name on the 1/5 post from a second ago.
12/10/2024 2:17 am
@Dave - the scenario you present sounds plausible. But I have to guess it’s even worse than that.
This is speculation but I would guess that 4 or 5 or more people would have looked at that piece before it was published. If a single one of them had started raising the questions that Richard raised the whole thing would have fallen apart in the room and the piece never would have gotten out there. So it’s one of two things:
1) The culture at RS is really dysfunctional and leadership (and not just one person, numerous people in positions of authority) don’t feel comfortable demanding a modicum of professionalism in all their reporting. Matt Taibbi refutes this in his twitter posts, link below:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/08/matt-taibbi-rolling-stone-mortified-sorry-uva-story_n_6287994.html
2) Or, there was some actual fact checking done and the reporter subverted this in some way ala Stephen Glass. This combined with the misguided decision not to even attempt to contact Jackie’s accused rapists led to the piece.
It’s all speculation but I’m inclined to think it’s #1. Or perhaps a piece like this is actually published with only 2 or 3 people looking at it, which would make what’s happened feel plausible. The overall problem is that I can’t understand a group of very smart people with this much at stake in a piece that they know is going to be controversial and get a lot of attention not covering their bases.
12/10/2024 2:46 am
@ Peter - The thing about Mattress Girl is that there no facts to check. I basically gave all the facts, which anyone can find. There’s even agreement that the anal sex took place. But no substance to the claim that it was an assault.
What Mattress Girl is doing is just massive PR. She will get an A. The guy is still there and will graduate soon. End of story. If she keeps getting coverage, it is all symbolic.
12/10/2024 8:16 am
Another case to read up on is Lena Sclove at Brown. It is disturbing. And it is an example of how quickly the media gathered around and used her story to push this agenda. Also check out Harvey Silvergate and FIRE for more cases and greater clarity. Richard you have done an excellent job with this story. You give me hope that there are still real journalists out there who care about the truth. Thank you.
12/10/2024 9:05 am
Grateful Mom, I and most of my Uva alumni friends I’ve talked to are appalled at the way Theresa Sullivan and the administration allowed the mob to run riot and have remained deafeningly quiet even after the story crumbled. Not a single word about rights of the accused, rushing to judgement, gathering the facts, etc. A complete disgrace for the most of the faculty and administration.
12/10/2024 9:22 am
Grateful Mom, I am so sorry for the injustices heaped upon your son and the other innocent guys of his fraternity-not to mention every single guy in Greek letters on that besieged campus. I sincerely, devoutly hope Phi Psi launches a sweeping lawsuit against all parties involved in this debacle, which has clearly caused emotional and scholastic suffering and verbal abuse, thanks to a modern day witch hunt. Those professors who rallied the mob and brandished the torch and pitchfork in their classes absolutely need to be held accountable.
As a Greek on a very anti-fraternity (and just as anti-sorority) campus, it was a never-ending uphill battle against the Animal House stereotype. Thanks to SRE and the reactionary damage-control response from UVA administration, that image is now much worse, absurdly, cartoonishly barbaric, despite the implosive fallout of the story where we now know facts and even a shred of truth were never the point of the article.
Sullivan needs to go. She needed to go yesterday.
The 1 in 5 number needs to be called out at every turn, and those who have framed the discussion of sexual assault on campuses for so long to further a clear and present social agenda need to be challenged and never again let their statements be accepted as fact. And that needs to start at the top, at the white house, at the policy level. Maybe then this madness will start to be put in check.
12/10/2024 9:29 am
And when I say all parties, I also include “Jackie.” Like Sabrina No Source said a few posts back, I don’t give a damn who that pisses off anymore. Clearly, the truth of the situation was never their agenda.
I shared this in another comment thread but it needs to be reiterated… “Jackie’s” story, now so riddled with holes, bears an even more striking resemblance to the Ashley Todd hoax of 2008. Read the article and see how quickly the made-up assault got worse, and how so casually she added the fondling part.
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/24/todd-he-fondled-me-too/
And wikipedia, a little more objective:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Todd_mugging_hoax
Remember, this was brought to law enforcement officials. Imagine the fallout if a university had kicked it up to a kangaroo court, and their bias and agenda was lock step with Todd’s.
Thank God that story crumbled before innocent people were hurt.
12/10/2024 9:30 am
Dave —
Re: the supposed “psychological torture” of rape victims due to questioning their accounts. Assuming (as is fair) that the scrutiny is traumatic, it’s a necessary price to protect the falsely accused. This does not mean that all accused rapists are innocent, nor even most; but if even SOME are (undoubtedly true), you have to take each accusation to task; examine the physical evidence, interview third party witnesses, and most importantly, the accused. If it’s traumatic to fact-check the stories of actual rape victims, I guaranty the trauma of a falsely accused rapist being denied the presumption of innocence is worse.
Victims’ advocates downplay the significance of the latter problem. They have colorful charts reflecting flawed data that show that false rape accusations rarely if ever occur.
This is the last refuge of the extremist. When presented with a moral quandary about the real harm your viewpoint will cause in some situations, pretend that those situations don’t (or can’t) occur. It’s like when Senate candidate Todd Akin claimed that pregnancy by rape can’t happen because a doctor told him the female body has a way of “shutting that whole process down.” He was dead wrong, but his belief gave him moral comfort that his absolutist views about rape and abortion were not incredibly cruel.
12/10/2024 9:33 am
To be fair the accused can sue the ‘Mattress Girl’ for continuously slandering his name because there is no case against him and he is not a convicted rapist, so he can sue ‘Mattress Girl’ for defamation (that’s why she doesn’t use his name so she can hopefully avoid this). But obviously his lawyer advised him to just let it go and graduate silently, because you won’t win either way with a publicized ‘rape victim’.
That is why I hated this Jackie and Bill Cosby case. You should not be able to publicize your rape until you reported it to the police and the rapist is successfully convicted, like Liz Seccuro. If you failed to convict him, then you need to anonymously to tell your rape with changing your rapist’s name and not giving out info that can make people identify him. Because a man is innocent until proven guilty, and he shouldn’t be crucified in the public without being able to defend himself in a court of law.
12/10/2024 11:39 am
“You should not be able to publicize your rape until you reported it to the police and the rapist is successfully convicted, like Liz Seccuro. If you failed to convict him, then you need to anonymously to tell your rape with changing your rapist’s name and not giving out info that can make people identify him. Because a man is innocent until proven guilty, and he shouldn’t be crucified in the public without being able to defend himself in a court of law.”
Couldn’t possibly disagree with this more.
12/10/2024 11:59 am
^^^^^Really??? Please explain. Maybe you would like to be accused in public for something you may or may not have done.
This type of thinking and advocating for public shaming is part of the problem not the solution.
12/10/2024 1:10 pm
Let’s peel that onion back a little more…
http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2014/12/the-seething-ethnic-hostility-behind-the-rolling-stone-scandal/
12/10/2024 1:47 pm
NEW ARTICLES
Friend of alleged UVA rape victim speaks out about ANDY and CINDY
http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/friend-of-alleged-uva-rape-victim-speaks-out/
NEW COMMENT ON UVA RAPE CASE FROM CHARLOTTESVILLE POLICE
http://t.co/4CI7zUk1Mp
12/10/2024 1:56 pm
Sabrina,
I don’t understand why you don’t write the side of this story that is emerging here. Maybe your employer is not interested, if you are employed by The Daily Bail. (Don’t worry. I am not a journalist. Just an observer.) You have a mother here telling you her side of the anguish that her family is going through. I find that very compelling. You have incredible energy and a truly good grasp of events. I hate to see an Echols scholar wasting away at Daily Bail. I would not believe a word I read there.
Grateful mother,
I can’t imagine. Really. Your son has been thrown into the center of a crisis that has nothing to do with him.
As I said in an earlier comment, in 1981, a young woman who was close to my family (she lived in our house for a year) was brutally beaten, raped, and murdered by two men. I can tell you that the details of the rape and murder would make you think that it is all made up, but it, tragically, very tragically, is not. (She was homecoming queen, blonde, wholesome, and her murder was her only sexual experience) So, horrific things do happen right here in our nation. We do not know if Jackie was assaulted or not, and we may never know. But maybe, just maybe, we can move forward with something constructive. If we do not, not only our daughters-but our sons-are at risk
12/10/2024 2:00 pm
The utter lack of empathy for any individual that is accused, tried and convicted in the court of public opinion is disgusting, disgraceful and demented.
It is a disturbingly easy caricature that any woman who casually strolls down this barren road holds contemptuous opinions of all men: her own father, her brothers, and her sons.
All animals are created equal, some more than others.
12/10/2024 2:31 pm
77
Most of us Mothers, who are women by the way, already recognize ours sons are at risk. They are at risk because of agenda driven advocates who don’t care who gets in the way of what they hope to achieve. We need to protect our sons from this agenda driven madness.
If advocates really cared about young women, they would help them to be confident and educate them to help try to prevent these types of assaults. Instead they choose fear mongering and divisiveness. Which helps no one.
Most women have sons and husbands and though it may be hard for someone like you to believe the vast and overwhelming majority do not engage in assault. And those men often protect these young women, but then that doesn’t play into the narrative, does it?
12/10/2024 2:45 pm
Here is a question for parents: someone alluded in an earlier comment a few posts ago to the “conversation” black parents have with their sons, what is the “conversation” that you are having with your sons about this topic?
In my family, we are talking about alcohol, consent, stds and pregnancy and being very explicit about the risks. But what do you say about screening potential partners for character flaws?
12/10/2024 3:17 pm
There is no choice but to do so NoVaDad. Check out Fire and Harvey Silverstein, a civil liberties attorney. They outline many of the cases currently being put forth on behalf of college men who were denied due process because of the expansion of Title IX. All who have sons should be alarmed and educated to help them protect themselves. It is very concerning. This UVA story is putting the spotlight on the role of Universities in these cases. They belong in the hands of the criminal system and out of colleges completely.
12/10/2024 3:18 pm
This is a CBS report today:
“The individual identified as “Andy” in the article told CBS News that he does not remember seeing visible injuries on Jackie on the night in question. He explained that when he met Jackie, it was nowhere near the Phi Kappa Psi house but in front of the first-year dorm and that he was never contacted by Erdely to corroborate Jackie’s story.”
This is the first time I have seen mention the location that the 3 friends found Jackie. First it was 1 mile away. Now it is clarified to be in front of the Freshmen(First Year Dorm).
12/10/2024 3:25 pm
Correction..Harvey Silvergate and here is a link to theFire website. http://www.thefire.org
12/10/2024 3:26 pm
Correction===Harvey Silvergate, sorry about that. And here is a link to theFire http://www.thefire.org
12/10/2024 3:27 pm
Correction Harvey Silvergate and the organization is TheFire.org.
12/10/2024 3:38 pm
UVa grads/students: Is the first-year dorm McCormick or Alderman?
12/10/2024 3:44 pm
Great question, NoVA Dad.
I’d have my son read the Yoffe article very closely, and then we would sit down and talk about it, going over point by point. That article should also be required reading for any male college student before he hits freshman orientation.
I’d also have my hypoethetical daughter read the piece. The picture is becoming clearer to me: these radical activist groups are indoctrination camps, encouraging victimhood and so ridiculously blurring the lines between consensual liaisons and assaults that they are the creators of the 1 in 5 myth-in my undergrad days, there was an extremist feminist group on campus that considered all heterosexual intercourse “rape.” Hopefully, by reading and understanding Emily Yoffe’s well-cited and unbiased article, a young woman would not easily fall into the trap of dehumanizing males and looking at all young men as a potential sexual predator.
I’d also have my daughter, as well as my son, read up on cults and the dangers of insular social groups and “us versus them” attitudes. We’d also watch the satire PCU-“Politically Correct University-“as that’s a stellar, and hilarious, example of the dangers of polarity and insulation.
What I find very sad is I would also heavily warn my son to stay far away from any woman associated with groups like “Jackie” was part of.
In the current climate of paranoia and drumhead public onion trials, I am far more worried about the safety of my son than I would a hypothetical daughter.
12/10/2024 3:57 pm
KC Johnson (blogger of the Duke Lacrosse Hoax) at minding the campus.com stated this:
“Earlier this year, UVA hired Emily Renda as a “sexual violence awareness specialist.” Renda told the Post that she introduced Erdely to Jackie in July. She didn’t reveal how she herself had come into contact with Erdely, and Erdely thus far has not commented on the connection. It’s unclear if Renda will face any consequences for peddling an inaccurate, unverified story—but one that badly damaged her employer’s reputation—to a national magazine.”
Since a UVa employee peddled the story to Rolling Stone, is UVA not only complicit for the story but also subject to liability for the damage done to the innocent?
12/10/2024 4:06 pm
BT
Great find and great question.
12/10/2024 4:27 pm
77 - “As I said in an earlier comment, in 1981, a young woman who was close to my family (she lived in our house for a year) was brutally beaten, raped, and murdered by two men.”
I don’t see the relevance of this story. Yes, bad things sometimes happen and we all wish they did not. But the fact that somebody you knew was murdered does not help us in formulating policy to deal with crime.
By the way, what was the outcome in that case? What’s the status of the two men you mention?
“maybe, just maybe, we can move forward with something constructive”
Is there something UNconstructive in your mind about the current system of justice in this country? It seems constructive to me that crimes be reported to and then investigated and prosecuted by the lawful authorities. But you keep dropping hints that you want something new or extra.
12/10/2024 4:43 pm
Anyine interested in more fun at the expense of Anna “Idiot” Merlan will love her correction to a post about Lena Dunham and the Oberlin Barry who threatened to sue because her book seemed to identify him as her rapist:
“Correction: An earlier version of this post stated that the man Dunham accused of rape is considering legal action. That was incorrect: the man considering legal action is a person who believes details in Dunham’s book wrongly point to him as being the rapist. I regret the error.”
Since the point of the controversy was that Oberlin Barry was NOT the alleged rapist, it was nice of Merlan to exemplify the confusion while cheerleading for Dunham.
12/10/2024 4:56 pm
Hyperbole Alert!
“And as a result, they compromised the most basic rules of the craft—things you wouldn’t do on your high school paper.”
I can’t speak to how high they may have been at the Rolling Stone but here is a rape victim story that ran in the Stanford Daily, Dec 5 2012:
“Culture of silence surrounds sexual assault”
Christina ’13 was raped in the middle of the Main Quad at Stanford, in the early morning of Martin Luther King Jr. Day her sophomore year.
He was an acquaintance; a “friend” from her freshman dorm she didn’t really know. They were both drunk at a party, and he had volunteered to walk her home.
“I was very, very drunk so I was unable to do anything when it was happening,” Christina remembered.
And so on. She reported it to the police, who investigated but considered the evidence to be inconclusive. The school was at first unhelpful but then adopted a new, lower “preponderance of evidence” standard. The accused was given a two year suspension.
My point - the reporter quotes the victim, some victim advocates, and offers one paragraph of stats from the administration. Nothing from the police as to why the DA took a pass, and certainly nothing from the accused.
In fact, this is essentially the same structure as the Rolling Stone effort - an Ain’t It Awful rape meant to introduce the Ain’t It Awful response by the justice system.
Well, maybe high school journalists are made of sterner stuff and they need to get to college to learn how the real advocacy journalists operate.
12/10/2024 5:23 pm
A standard statistic that is always quoted is that only 2% of accusations of sexual assault are false.
But here’s an obvious problem with that claim.
Think about recent (say in the last decade), very prominent accusations of sexual assault. How many of them have turned out to be false?
Well, I would count the UVA case, the Lena Dunham case, the Duke Lacrosse case, and the Dominique Strauss-Kahn case as all being false accusations. I would count the Cosby Case as being an accusation that is true. I’m not sure I can think of another true accusation, but I’ll grant my memory isn’t an enviable one.
But even forgetting about which other specific cases are true accusations, consider just the numbers here. If 4 such accusations are false, and they constitute only 2% of the accusations, then, if that’s a fair sampling (and why shouldn’t it be?), there should be roughly 200 highly prominent accusations, right?
Well, I should think it’s obvious that there haven’t been 200 such widely known accusations over the last decade, that such a large number of widely known accusations is almost by definition not possible, nor anywhere near possible.
There’s quite a load of innumeracy in the “Fight the Rape Culture” camp.
If I had to guess, maybe half of widely known accusations of rape turn out to be false.
How can that possibly square with a 2% figure?
12/10/2024 5:41 pm
AZ Mom,
I am not an advocate. I have been a career woman and a housewife, and enjoyed both roles. I love my husband, father, nephews, and brothers in law as much as you love the men in your life, so you might want to examine your biases. I do not think that young women should walk around with mattresses on their backs, nor do I believe that we should outright dismiss a claim of assault. I think these are law enforcement issues and that alcohol is a huge problem.
Steve,
I don’t care to discuss Barbara with you.
12/10/2024 5:51 pm
Good. Lord.
Read this piece, think it through. I don’t think I need to draw a picture.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/u-va-students-challenge-rolling-stone-account-of-attack/2014/12/10/ef345e42-7fcb-11e4-81fd-8c4814dfa9d7_story.html?postshare=1651418249737325
12/10/2024 5:59 pm
Coming back to the Emily Renda part of this story. As an employee of the University, she peddled the false gang rape story to the RS. It seems that there are several problems with this:
1. UVA has an employed Sexual Violence Awareness Specialist on staff who potentially used student confidential information and shared it with a reporter.
2. Did Renda confuse her roll as a University Employee with that of a Advocate for political SJW?
3. Did Renda violate any University policy by promoting a false gang rape story to the media?
4. As an employee at UVA did she purposely or through negligence put students in harms way by her actions? Both physical harm (cider block thrown through a window where a student was sleeping) and emotional harm (false accusations of gang rape)?
There may be other items that I am missing, but I can’t believe this is not getting much discussion in media.
12/10/2024 6:19 pm
All,
Please read Shapiro’s latest WaPo article…
12/10/2024 6:24 pm
Anon: Agreed. Devastating.
It’s hard to avoid the conclusion that a young woman invented a charming upper classman to make one of her friends, who had previously rejected her advances, jealous. How sad.
12/10/2024 6:37 pm
There is big breaking news at the Washington Post. I quasi-live blog it here:
http://www.unz.com/isteve/jackies-story-going-going-gone-girl/
Perhaps Jackie catfished the whole story to make her friend “Randall” jealous and protective and in love with her? That’s just speculation but read the Post’s story carefully and see if you find that worth considering.
12/10/2024 6:38 pm
Catfishing?
12/10/2024 6:39 pm
Wow - the new Wash Post story is simply mind boggling. For those of you who didn’t grow up steeped in social media, look up the term ‘catfishing’.
12/10/2024 6:42 pm
From Daniel Payne in the Federalist:
Emily Renda, UVA’s “project coordinator for sexual misconduct, policy and prevention, and a member of the governor’s Task Force on Combating Campus Sexual Violence,” said, according to the Associated Press: “she didn’t question Jackie’s credibility because that wasn’t her role.”
Got that? The “project coordinator” for the University of Virginia’s anti-rape apparatus, and an employee of a governor’s “task force” on the matter to boot, felt that it “wasn’t her role” to figure out if an alleged rape victim’s story was credible. If determining whether or not a rape happened isn’t the job of someone with Renda’s credentials, whose job was it? Apparently it was Rolling Stone’s—but they didn’t feel that it was their business, either, convinced as they were that the matter was too “sensitive” to check out themselves. Up and down the ladder, every step of the way, everyone involved blew off his or her responsibility to determine the truth in favor of feel-good rhetoric and journalistic cowardice. Nobody cared whether Jackie was trustworthy. It was nobody’s role to figure it out. So nobody did.
12/10/2024 6:43 pm
Steve Sailer: Absolutely, at this point “Catfishing for love” or catfishing as part of a romantic scam is the only explanation that makes sense at this point.
Points: Upper classman only exists via text messages sent to her 3 friends. Does not exist at the school. Photo of said upper classman determined to be HS classmate of Jackie, who was documented out of town at time of incident. Name of putative upper classman doesn’t check out, either in 2012 or 2014.
Narrative: Young woman creates rival to get the boy she’s in love with to pay attention to her. Doesn’t work. Alleges sexual assault. That doesn’t work either. Gets depressed.
12/10/2024 6:49 pm
From Washington Post - Shaprio:
The three students agreed to be interviewed on the condition that The Post use the same aliases as appeared in Rolling Stone because of the sensitivity of the subject.
They said there are mounting inconsistencies with the original narrative in the magazine. The students also expressed suspicions about Jackie’s allegations from that night. They said the name she provided as that of her date did not match anyone at the university, and U-Va. officials confirmed to The Post that no one by that name has attended the school.
And photographs that were texted to one of the friends showing her date that night actually were pictures depicting one of Jackie’s high school classmates in Northern Virginia. That man, now a junior at a university in another state, confirmed that the photographs are of him and said he barely knew Jackie and hasn’t been to Charlottesville for at least six years.
12/10/2024 6:49 pm
Most of the comments in this thread are stunningly superficial and foolish. But I have to admit that — although we are still at a serious distance — Jackie no longer seems credible at all in light of the newest WaPo Shapiro story.
“After the alleged attack, the man who Jackie said had taken her on the date wrote an e-mail to Randall, passing along praise that Jackie apparently had for him.”
There is a whole other narrative now possible, and Occam’s Razor comes into play. It is impossible not to be suspicious about Jackie’s sincerity.
It is worth noting that no actual male has been personally accused. So let’s not weep for the apparently fictional guy who has had his reputation ruined. Pi Phi and UVa will recover just fine.
What a disaster.
12/10/2024 6:51 pm
(I had never heard of “catfishing,” but I did identify and help put a halt to such a scheme, perpetrated by a male, during the course of my work as an educator. It was four times as elaborate.)
12/10/2024 6:58 pm
More from Shapiro:
Last week, Jackie for the first time revealed a name of her alleged attacker to other friends who had known her more recently, those recent friends said. That name was different from the name she gave Andy, Cindy and Randall that first night. All three said that they had never heard the second name before it was given to them by a reporter.
12/10/2024 7:00 pm
more:
In interviews, some of Jackie’s closest friends said they believe she suffered a horrific trauma during her freshman year, but others have expressed doubts about the account.
12/10/2024 7:01 pm
I will summarize the WaPo article thusly:
Jackie Coakley is batshit crazy.
12/10/2024 7:09 pm
SE wrote, “Most of the comments in this thread are stunningly superficial and foolish.”
Care to elaborate on that?
“It is worth noting that no actual male has been personally accused. So let’s not weep for the apparently fictional guy who has had his reputation ruined. Pi Phi and UVa will recover just fine.”
Tell that to the mom of a current phi psi brother in this thread. Your lack of empathy for students thrown to the mob’s bulldozer on this debacle is reprehensible.
“What a disaster.”
Move goalposts much, SE?
12/10/2024 7:13 pm
This is not “crack” reporting by Shapiro so hold the accolades. He’s been on this for at least two weeks, with The Post’s access, name, and resources at his back. He already had a first “crack” at Jackie’s friends for his first story and dropped the ball, failing to ask obvious questions. He has also, if memory serves, been one to expressly perpetuate the speculation that “something traumatic happened to her.”
12/10/2024 7:15 pm
Roan: Thank you. Why an anonymous poster in the comments section of someone else’s blog would feel required to derogate other anonymous posters is kind of hard to understand.
Meanwhile: While this story appear to be largely a confabulation due to being in love (quite pathetic, actually), there has been a LOT of damage done:
To the University of Virginia, to Phi Kappa Psi, to Greeks nationwide, to male students nationwide, not to mention: Rolling Stone, Sabrina Rubin Erdely, and victims of sexual assault.
Incredibly destructive and damaging.
12/10/2024 7:20 pm
I empathize with the Phi Psis, but I empathize even more with the hundreds of rape victims in the next decade who will have to factor in the prospect that if they come forward, someone will mount an investigation into whether, like (apparently) Jackie, they are just trying to make someone jealous.
12/10/2024 7:21 pm
77 -“I don’t care to discuss Barbara with you.”
Says the person who injects her into every discussion. I’m starting to think you’re another “Jackie”.
12/10/2024 7:24 pm
(The derogation is to make it clear that a lot of reprehensible things have been said, and my contribution is not intended to respond to them.)
12/10/2024 7:32 pm
Sara Feldman-Schorrig, MD
Among those claims that trivialize true sexual harassment is a type that the author has come to recognize as factitious (i.e., prompted by the lure of victim status). Women who file factitious sexual harassment cases usually voice their allegations in a very convincing manner and, in the presence of contradictory findings, present a diagnostic challenge. Forensic clinicians must be able to recognize factitious sexual harassment in order to bring objectivity to these complex cases.
12/10/2024 7:56 pm
Steve,
One man went to jail. The other was never found. This was a horrific event in my family’s life. You are one of the rudest people I have ever encountered.
12/10/2024 8:01 pm
77
I’m sorry for your family’s trauma, but this doesn’t give you the moral high ground.
12/10/2024 8:01 pm
I am stunned. But why haven’t Randall, Andy and Cindy been shouting this story to the Cavalier Daily, the WaPo, or whoever else would listen? They still sound almost as wacky as they did in the original article! Why did they not send these texts and photos to a reporter, post them on Facebook, anything? They knew the real story the whole time and they’ve just been sitting on it? Unreal.
12/10/2024 8:09 pm
SE
Yes, there will be hundreds of real rape victims. Yes, their stories will be investigated. Yes, questions will be asked. It sucks, but that simply is the way the world works. If I am ever accused of a crime, any crime, I would hope the complainant is similarly questioned, and you should, too. No complaint should ever be taken at face value. Unfortunately, our society, particularly on campus, has shifted to taking rape allegations at face value, and innocent lives have been severely disrupted. There is nothing about a rape allegation that should make it less subject to scrutiny than any other claim of high crime.
12/10/2024 8:17 pm
Shortest Straw,
Thank you for your sympathy. And, please note that I do not believe that I have the moral high ground. I brought my family’s loss up to personalize the devastation that rape, and in our case, murder, causes. It is all getting trivialized because of this RS, Jackie debacle.
12/10/2024 8:19 pm
The Yoffe article was good but it did not outweigh the reasons for believing that the error “shift” you name is a much smaller problem, both in prevalence and in the moral harm done, than the opposite kind of error.
12/10/2024 8:23 pm
NFL,
You raise a very good point.
One would think the stories Jackie’s friends are now telling couldn’t be more obviously relevant to the truth of what Jackie was claiming.
Why did it take so very long for that to come out? Why didn’t the WaPo and others reporting mention it earlier?
Is this a failing of Jackie’s friends to own up to what happened, or of the reporters to report?
12/10/2024 8:23 pm
77- “I brought my family’s loss up to personalize the devastation that rape, and in our case, murder, causes.”
And yet you refused to answer a routine query about the fate of the murderers in question with the words “I don’t care to discuss Barbara with you”. Hmm.
12/10/2024 8:31 pm
Steve,
That’s right. I don’t care to discuss Barbara with you.
Good evening to you.
12/10/2024 9:15 pm
77
I don’t think it actually is getting trivialized. I don’t think anyone is any less sympathetic to the plight of real rape victims as a result of this sorry episode. I think it may appear it is being trivialized, but that is because that horrific crime does not actually have any bearing on the current situation. It’s like invoking Hitler: Yes, Hitler was evil, but Jackie is still a loon, and Rolling Stone really should cease publication.
No one is going to discredit real rape victims as a result of this horrorshow. If a woman goes to the police or a hospital tomorrow and says she was gang raped, no one is going to roll their eyes and say, “Oh no, here’s an other Jackie Coakley.”
What is going to happen is that when “rape victims” refuse to go to the police, their stories will automatically be discredited, as they should be.
Did everyone catch Alex Pinkleton’s rape story? Blackout drunk, had sex, called it rape. Real rape victims should publicly shame her for claiming the title “rape survivor”.
Fortunately, the crime your family endured is rare, and if anything, you should be furious at Jackie and Rolling Stone for trivializing it through lies and sensationalism. Future horrific crime victims will not be marginalized; future hoaxers and sensationalists will be challenged.
12/10/2024 9:59 pm
Anon,
Thank-you.
Yes, I am furious at Jackie and Rolling Stone. Very. What an unbelievably destructive thing to do to so many people and to a great institution.
This is all really too much of an intersection of too many things in my life, I guess: my alma mater, and the memory of Barbara. I need to step back from it.
I have enjoyed this forum very much. It has been very enlightening and I truly enjoy the differing points of view and personalities.
My apologies to you, Steve. Barbara’s murder was a terrible, terrible incident in our lives, and we still feel the effects of it today. It seemed to me that you were insinuating that I was making her murder up, and that is what I reacted to.
Anyway, thanks again to everyone.
12/10/2024 10:23 pm
Grateful Mom
Thank you for the thoughtful perspective on the unjust effects of this intentional lying on your son and his fraternity brothers. I hope you will work to let your voice of reason be heard by the president of the University and the Board of Visitors. They surely owe the men of Phi Kappa Psi an apology, but their intellectual cowardice and their fervid devotion to the lie and the “rape culture” narrative will not give them leave to speak the truth. The rape culture at the dear old University of Virginia is now too well established to root out; it is the culture of the rape of truth, wherever it be found at odds with ideology and politically correct thinking. Pace the words of Mr. Jefferson: Here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it. What horrible shame befalls the great University for Mr. Jefferson’s words to mock him in his grave.
12/10/2024 11:54 pm
Re: “They knew the real story the whole time and they’ve just been sitting on it? Unreal.”
When the story first broke the Administration was quick to embrace it, suspend the fraternities, etc. Sabrina Erdely and Jackie were courageous national heroes and no one wanted to hear anyone call BS.
And did they know “the real story the whole time”? The fact that Jackie is giving out two different names for the assailant only occurred in the aftermath. Andy, Randall and Cindy might have been wondering “Chem class? Lifeguard? Which is it?” but they didn’t know that their photos were of Jackie’s high school classmate. (Oddly, the guy has been a junior in 2012 throughout the evolution of the story).
To be fair, they didn’t want to be interviewed in the first place, they probably thought Jackie’s stories were squirrely and sensed an approaching train wreck, and they were right.
12/10/2024 11:56 pm
“I think these are law enforcement issues and that alcohol is a huge problem.” [I would add - “in many cases, particularly in light of a ‘binge drink and hook up’ culture at many universities.]
77, I think that is an insightful and thoughtful summation of the broader issue of sexual assaults, both on college campuses and society as a whole.
The more that we read about this particular story - including today’s Washington Post follow-up with Jackie’s friends - the less it sounds like sexual assault is the core issue in this case. That’s the subject matter, but we’re gradually learning that the real story is how the fairly easily debunked untruths of a seemingly troubled individual were published through a combination of SRE’ s and RS’s journalistic incompetence, credulity, and quite possibly malfeasance.
12/11/2023 12:12 am
Anon, you say in response to my comment earlier, that:
“Also, Dave’s post got me thinking about the one in five stat. I’m no expert. But…
Ohio state for example has 31500 female students. Let’s round down to 30k. That would be 6k rapes a year, on campus??? Less if you only count one per college career …”
Respectfully, but to be precise, the claim is 1 in 5 sexual assaults by the end of college. So, that is less than 1 in 5 per year, and includes sexual assaults other than rape. I wish to be precise, but as I said previously, that “1 in 5″ stat is at best highly dubious (and probably garbage) for the context in which it is cited.
For more detail on that, I’ll quote Emily Yoffe at Slate a few days ago, in a very good story to which Richard linked:
“[1 in 5 is] the number most often used to suggest there is overwhelming sexual violence on America’s college campuses. It comes from a 2007 study funded by the National Institute of Justice, called the Campus Sexual Assault Study, or CSA. (I cited it last year in a story on campus drinking and sexual assault.) The study asked 5,466 female college students at two public universities, one in the Midwest and one in the South, to answer an online survey about their experiences with sexual assault. The survey defined sexual assault as everything from nonconsensual sexual intercourse to such unwanted activities as “forced kissing,” “fondling,” and “rubbing up against you in a sexual way, even if it is over your clothes.”
There are approximately 12 million female college students in the U.S. (There are about 9 million males.) I asked the lead author of the study, Christopher Krebs, whether the CSA represents the experience of those millions of female students. His answer was unequivocal: “We don’t think one in five is a nationally representative statistic.” It couldn’t be, he said, because his team sampled only two schools. “In no way does that make our results nationally representative,” Krebs said. And yet President Obama used this number to make the case for his sweeping changes in national policy.
….
President Obama has asserted that only about 12 percent of sexual assault victims make a report to authorities. If he is correct, and we extrapolate from the Clery numbers, that would suggest there were 32,500 assaults in 2012, reported and not, or a 0.27 percent incidence.”
That latter number, I’ll add, would equate to roughly 1%, or 1 in 100, over the course of 4 years of college.
Here’s a separate discussion of the flaws with the study that produced that “1 in 5″ stat, to which Mr. Bradley linked in one of his earlier posts - http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/05/01/one-in-five-women-in-college-sexually-assaulted-the-source-of-this-statistic/
12/11/2023 12:21 am
@Austin - Well said, I agree with you. To summarize a point that I made in a comment to Richard’s “Aftermath” post: there appears to be a prevailing attitude of “don’t question or scrutinize the truth of the (alleged) victim’s report” that’s defensible in a therapy/support setting. That attitude is most definitely not, however, appropriate in the wider arena or journalistic standards, setting public policy, or adjudicating claims (whether that’s a criminal trial or a college disciplinary process). In those arenas, I agree with you that we need to stick to higher evidentiary standards that rely on corroborating evidence and fact-checking.
12/11/2023 2:00 am
Tom Maguire, I responded to your comment in the next article’s thread, as this one is pretty dead at this point.
12/11/2023 5:12 am
Dave,
Thank you. I don’t know how insightful the observation is, just a little common sense, it would seem.
In the end, it just might turn out that Erdely did write an expose after all-not the one she intended-but an expose, nevertheless, brining to the attention of the public at large some very troubling realties that exist on our college campuses.
12/17/2014 3:01 pm
“The New York Observer’s Ken Kurson finds a source who tells the paper that at least one editor at Rolling Stone, deputy managing editor Sean Woods, has offered his resignation—and that editor-in-chief and owner Jann Wenner has turned it down.
Wenner denies the report, but I suspect that Wenner would deny it regardless of its veracity. (Kurson finds a second source to confirm it.)”
So Wenner didn’t just “refuse to comment”? He lied?