Aftermath
Posted on December 6th, 2014 in Uncategorized | 250 Comments »
In the wake of Rolling Stone’s retraction, I’m trying to gather my thoughts into a big picture, what it all means sort of post—and failing.
There are so many disparate elements to this situation; even now, we do not know what to believe and what not. Rolling Stone and Sabrina Rubin Erdely threw a hand grenade into an emotional social and political environment, and now the rest of us have to pick up the pieces.
So I’m going to keep thinking. I know in our culture we’re expected to produce instant conclusions. I’m just wary of being glib. And also, given that I’ve been tough on other people’s mistakes, I want to be extra cautious.
But I do have some pieces I want to pick up.
1) I appreciate Anna Merlan’s apology. Not that my opinion counts for much, but I think that Anna (once someone refers to you as a “giant ball of shit,” you’re pretty much on a first-name basis) has the potential to be a very fine journalist. I do think she needs to reject the culture of snark and the easy gratification that comes with it.
But listen, I’ve written some things in my life that I’d love to take back, so I’m not going to be all high and mighty about it. I’ve been called worse things than an idiot.
Speaking of taking back, I will admit—I’d like to hear something from Liz Seccuro and Kat Stoeffel. When Stoeffel’s piece, which caricatured what I wrote, came out, I sent her a polite email pointing out why I thought she’d done me some disservices. She responded with a one-sentence email to the effect that I had misspelled her name. (To be fair, I did.) I apologized—and then heard nothing.
She did, however, tweet:
Ughhhhhhh it’s about ethics in gang-rape journalism as well now?
(One thing about social media—a lot of journalists are shockingly open about their biases.)
I look forward to reading your follow-up, Kat.
I am disappointed by Liz Seccuro. The article she wrote on Time.com is discredited within hours of its posting, and she responds by tweeting…
Liz Seccuro @LizSeccuro · 17h 17 hours ago
I am terribly, terribly disappointed by today’s developments. But that cannot change what happened to me. My truth is unassailable.
This is a red herring; no one is assailing Seccuro’s truth. But how can we work through the issues surrounding allegations of sexual assault if there is no honesty in our public discourse? How can you write something that is almost instantly proven wrong and then not at least acknowledge that?
2) Sabrina Rubin Erdely. The woman who accused UVA of “stonewalling” has gone underground; she has said nothing publicly, and is declining to respond to journalists’ inquiries.
I hate it when journalists do that. How can we expect others to talk to us if we won’t talk to them?
I appreciate that this must be a very difficult time for Rubin Erdely, but I don’t think that’s the right approach to take—even if it’s the one Rolling Stone wants her to.
Before the story collapsed, Rubin Erdely—whose Facebook image is a picture of Linda Carter as Wonder Woman, and who posted pictures of herself schmoozing with rape victim Tori Amos—seemed to be reveling in the acclaim her story was attracting.
On November 29th—five days after my original post questioning her story—she posted this on Facebook (we’re not friends; her page is, as of now, public):
I’m in the back of a big black car, on my way to MSNBC. Watch me on Melissa Harris-Perry’s show at 10:30 this morning! You know what I’ll be talking about.
I’m sure that Rubin Erdely, who has apparently written a lot of great stuff in her career, will eventually address what went wrong here. But it’s not courageous to enjoy all the attention when you’re riding high and then vanish when things go south. It has now been two weeks since I and others began faulting her reporting. In that time, Rubin Erdely has done nothing but defend her story and suggest to people that they are misguided for trying to confirm it. When she has spoken, it’s conspicuously to mainstream media outlets, like NPR, that are likely to be more sympathetic to her. (Rubin Erdely has not responded to two emails I sent her.)
3) Rolling Stone strikes the wrong note by putting out a statement saying that “we have come to the conclusion that our trust in [Jackie] was misplaced.”
Jackie, who may genuinely not know whatever happened to her, did not force Rolling Stone to publish anything. She did not force Rolling Stone to abandon basic tenets of journalism. It’s pretty simple: The magazine wanted to run with a bombshell story and chose to compromise its standards in order to do so.
To be fair, managing editor Will Dana acknowledges Rolling Stone’s responsibility in subsequent tweets and interviews.
But it’s gross that Rolling Stone’s first instinct was to throw Jackie under the bus. Meanwhile, the author of the piece has not said a word taking responsibility. That’s not right.
4) Either in the Washington Post or New York Times—forgive me, I’m losing track—I read a quote from Will Dana to the effect that the magazine did not know of the “inconsistencies” in Jackie’s account until it was contacted by the Washington Post.
What on earth has Rolling Stone been doing for the past week or so?
As difficult as it would have been, Rolling Stone should have gone back to its sources—well, source—and pushed to do the reporting it didn’t do the first time around.
A footnote here: In the past few days, a lot of folks have said to me things like, “Well, what do you expect from Rolling Stone?” Or: “They should stick to music reviews.” Etc.
Just for the record, I like Rolling Stone. I’m a subscriber, and I think the magazine has done a lot of great reporting over the past few years. It’s still committed to long-form journalism, which is increasingly rare. I defended the magazine, on this blog, for all the heat it took about its Boston Bomber cover.
I just don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater here…
5) I am troubled by the fact that Jackie has now given a name for the man she said invited her to the fraternity party, and he has responded that he has never met her.
This from the Washington Post:
Reached by phone, that man, a U-Va. graduate, said Friday that he worked at the Aquatic and Fitness Center and was familiar with Jackie’s name. But he added that he never met Jackie in person and never took her out on a date. He also said he was not a member of Phi Kappa Psi.
If this man is telling the truth, Jackie has just made a false allegation of sexual assault.
That is an uncontestable equation, and all of the writers who, in the past several days, have argued that we must never question a story of sexual assault have a responsibility to admit that they were wrong.
Would Marc Cooper and Helen Benedict, the two journalism professors quoted in the New York Times as saying that it is not necessary for journalists to contact the accused, care to revise their opinions?
6) I have never understood why UVA president Teresa Sullivan suspended activities at all fraternities because of the alleged crimes that took place at one. It was a defensive overreaction in an environment of hysteria—not the mark of a leader.
I do not now understand why those fraternities remain under suspension.
I don’t have an investment in fraternities one way or another, it’s just an example of how bad journalism leads to bad policy that, once implemented, tends to linger.
7) There are a lot of high profile journalists who praised Rubin Erdely’s work after her story was published—Lisa DePaulo (“you’re SO good!”, she wrote Rubin Erdley on Facebook), Jeffrey Goldberg (“a super reporting job,” he tweeted), Elliott Kaplan, etc.
Journalists can be a tribal, insular bunch. Sometimes this is good, as when journalists are wrongly criticized or when we support each other, as with the really awful situation now happening at The New Republic.
Sometimes it isn’t.
I’ve gotten a lot of emails from journalists in the past few days like the one from the editor of a very high profile magazine—he’s a powerful guy. “Good call on RS,” he wrote. “I was with you all the way.”
I mean—I appreciate that, I truly do. But it is easy to say after the fact, in private, after Rolling Stone has retracted its story. On Twitter, I’ve seen a lot of non-journalists raising issues with this story once the discussion got started. I didn’t see a lot of journalists doing so.
Sometimes our tribalism goes too far.
(Full disclosure: Lisa DePaulo, who is probably best known for trying to convince the world that Gary Condit killed Chandra Levy when he did not, is not my biggest fan, due to a falling out we had many years ago. Also, I’m not that fluent with Twitter, so it’s absolutely possible that I’ve missed relevant tweets.)
8) I have seen the word “backlash” used quite a lot to describe the efforts by me and other writers (Robby Soave, Paul Farhi, Erik Wemple, Hanna Rosin, Allison Benedikt) to point out some of the issues in Sabrina Rubin Erdely’s article—as in, “the backlash against the Rolling Stone story began when…”
Like Liz Securro referring to my blog as a “rant,” “backlash” is an extremely loaded word in this context. It was, after all, the title of Susan Faludi’s famous book, followed by the subtitle, “The Undeclared War against American Women.”
What I and others did was not a backlash. You could call it a correction, an assessment, a reevaluation, an investigation—there are plenty of reasonably accurate labels.
But please don’t use a term that has very specific political connotations to describe journalists who are just doing their jobs. Sabrina Rubin Erdley intended to be political; we didn’t.
9) In the past 24 hours, I’ve read a number of times that we must not let the “inconsistencies” in Jackie’s story blind us to the larger truths about the University of Virginia and “rape culture.”
This argument should not be received uncritically.
One reason is that Sabrina Rubin Erdely’s story does not establish any larger truths about the University of Virginia.
The damage is done, of course. Nothing that I or anyone else now writes will dissuade the general public from believing that UVA is a bastion of misogyny and sexual assault.
I don’t know if it is or isn’t.
I do know that, from start to finish, Sabrina Rubin Erdely’s article has methodological flaws and a deep bias. “A Rape on Campus” is an irresponsible patchwork of personal politics, sloppy reporting and preconceived conclusions by a writer who lamented that the University of Virgina has no “radical feminist culture seeking to upend the patriarchy”—and took it upon herself to do just that.
As to the larger question of the existence of “rape culture”–well, that is an ongoing discussion, and I hope to participate in it.
Thanks for hearing me out. And thanks to all the people who’ve taken the time to comment on this blog. I find it incredibly inspiring. As I’ve mentioned before, I do this for free. Your comments mean a lot.
250 Responses
12/6/2024 11:40 am
Richard: Thanks for being the lone voice willing to question Erdely’s journalism while knowing the maelstrom of personal and professional insults you would endure. An amazing institution with its share of high profile issues in the past (Operation Equinox, Yeardley Love, etc.), the reported decline in culture and decency of the student body just didn’t compute based not only on feedback from current students and recent grads, but also my strong recollection of how many outstanding people I encountered over my four years at UVA. Every school can benefit from sexual assault awareness, but painting the UVA Greek system with the same brush as used to report the gang rape culture of Pakistan for the sake of selling magazines is journalistic malpractice.
One rape is too many, but in this age of social media, do we really believe the rape culture to be so pervasive that we would have to learn about it in RS? Nonetheless, the administration has long been inconvenienced by the Greek system at UVA. Not allowing a good (manufactured) crisis go to waste, the UVA President is striking while the iron is hot with this email distributed this morning:
To the University community:
I’m sure many of you are aware by now of today’s reports from the Washington Post and the statement from Rolling Stone magazine. While all of us who care about the University of Virginia are upset by the Rolling Stone story, I write now with a different message.
Over the past two weeks, our community has been more focused than ever on one of the most difficult and critical issues facing higher education today: sexual violence on college campuses. Today’s news must not alter this focus. Here at U.Va., the safety of our students must continue to be our top priority, for all students, and especially for survivors of sexual assault.
We will continue to take a hard look at our practices, policies, and procedures, and continue to dedicate ourselves to becoming a model institution in our educational programming, in the character of our student culture, and in our care for those who are victims.
Now is the time for us to come together as a community to lead the way on this critical issue.
Very truly yours,
Teresa A. Sullivan
President
Where is her apology for the violation of the rights of the falsely accused? Where is her request for retraction of the falsely premised stories that have battered UVA? Where is her immediate reinstatement of the Greek system? Where is her apology to Dean Eramo? Where is her stated support for the quality and decency of the University body as a whole. She needs to be trying to heal wounds, not shaping the scars. The redaction of the RS story doesn’t fit her narrative. Stay tuned.
12/6/2024 11:44 am
PS - I graduated from UVA in the early 90’s. Sorry for the lack of context in my Anonymous post at 11:40.
12/6/2024 11:55 am
I agree with Anonymous 11:40 above.
It is morally obscene for the President of UVA to respond to the very serious doubt now cast on the Rolling Stone story as she did.
What is the message of that response? Essentially that she is not going to let any such doubts on the merits of the vicious accusations made against the fraternities deter her from assuming that they are blameworthy.
How can one possess any kind of conscience and say such a thing?
Is she so morally callous that she doesn’t understand the horrible disgrace under which those accusations have placed the members of the fraternity, and all fraternities?
These are the students in her own university; it is her charge to treat them responsibly and fairly and to see that they are spared unjustified harm.
Could it possibly be more obvious that she doesn’t care the slightest bit about that, and that, to the contrary, she is seeking to find some way to maintain that disgrace?
Frankly, I think one would have to be a moral monster to hold such a view.
What is she doing as the President of a distinguished university?
12/6/2024 12:07 pm
There is a petition to fire the UVA president for the poor way she dealt with this situation, please sign:
https://www.change.org/p/university-of-virginia-board-of-visitors-fire-university-of-virginia-president-teresa-sullivan
12/6/2024 12:12 pm
Richard, after reading your latest piece, I Googled the Twitter accounts of Journalism professors Helen Benedict and Marc Cooper to see if either one had responded to the Rolling Stone fallout.
Benedict hasn’t said anything about the matter even though she’s tweeted on other matters since Rolling Stone’s apology.
But Marc Cooper proudly tweeted several links to a piece written by his daughter, Natasha Vargas-Cooper, for The Intercept (the news website founded up by Glenn Greenwald, Laura Poitras, Jeremy Scahill).
In the article, which makes several trenchant observations, Natasha Vargas-Cooper excoriates Rolling Stone for NOT talking to the alleged rapists. (Which seems to be at odds with the views her father expressed to the New York Times.)
And she criticizes the “Feminist Internet Collective” who claim that reporters should be “sensitive” to rape survivors such Jackie by not asking them rigorous questions.
A few choice excerpts from her article, below:
—————
There is a horrendous, hidden bias in Rolling Stone‘s reporting: the premise that none of these guys would tell the truth if asked. Whether it’s because they are white, or in a frat, or were even possibly directly involved in the act, the notion that the only things these men would say are lies is a stupid and cowardly assumption.
If you are a front-line warrior in the war against patriarchy, know this: facts, no matter how complicated or unpleasant, should not be obscured because they “help the other side.” Ask yourself, soldier, is the cause of equality so weak that statements made by the frat boys would destroy it?
A few paragons of the feminist left have condemned Rolling Stone‘s statement for discrediting their source. As well as brushing off inconsistencies in Jackie’s story as exposed by The Washington Post. “It’s as if survivors are expected to go to victim finishing school,” tweeted Durga Chew Bose. Roxane Gay, author of Bad Feminist, added, “My next book will be Bad Victim.”
But they conspicuously have not chastised Rolling Stone for their unwillingness to fact check Jackie’s story and enter into a losing bargain with a source who refused to have her severe accusations scrutinized.
It is remarkable and depressing how many SlutWalkers, members of The Progressive Internet, and Earnest Feminists, believe that good reporting somehow equates to victim shaming. If you believe that putting the screws to alleged rapists is somehow anti-feminist then you are an intellectual dwarf.
———————-
Google The Intercept to read the rest of the piece…
The silence from the likes of Kat Stoeffel, not to mention Sabrina Rubin Erdley, is appalling. At least Anna Merlan had the humility to fess up an apology in writing.
12/6/2024 12:19 pm
That is pretty interesting, Zealander. Marc Cooper, by the way, has had an awesome career. I don’t know what he was thinking here, though.
12/6/2024 12:32 pm
Thanks for this again Mr. Bradley. It has been an educational experience in detecting biases in journalism to dissect articles and come up with a better truth.
You do not have to post this comment, however I believe you are spelling Sabrina’s name incorrectly in this post; it should read Sabrina Rubin Erdely, not Erdley.
12/6/2024 12:41 pm
Thank you for pointing that out, Brad—since corrected, I believe. (Hope!) Trying to do too much too fast, I guess.
12/6/2024 12:53 pm
Richard. I’m the parent of a UVA freshman (aka first year). UVA has been a great fit for him but this has been a horrific semester. It was so sad to follow the Hannah Graham story (and related rape/murders) and the Rolling Stone article was gut-wrenching too. And now we have to deal with the reaction to the reaction to the reaction.
UVA is facing some major challenges. The problem of rape on campus is real. It probably isn’t 1 in 5 but even 1 in 20 would be horrifying. President Sullivan has done an admirable job of maintaining focus during this very turbulent time. Shutting down the frats during the last few weeks of the semester isn’t an overreaction. I don’t think it’s fair to criticize her for taking these steps. She’s walking a very delicate line.
In addition to President Sullivan, I’m sympathetic to:
- members of Phi Si
- Dean Eramo
- Emily Renda
- All UVA students and alum
- Jackie (she’s created a mess but my gut-feel is that something bad did happen to her and she’s totally confused)
- to a lesser extent, the editorial staff at RS
I have absolutely no sympathy, however, for Sabrina Rubin Erdely. She went looking for a bombshell story and threw all of her preexisting biases into a narrative that was so shocking it would bring her the attention that she craves. You could say she was misled by Jackie, but that’s hardly the case. She heard from Jackie what she wanted to hear. As I said, I believe Jackie is very confused and may have a real mental problem cased, perhaps, by a sexual assault but Erdely doesn’t get that pass because of that. After re-reading the story, the things that jump out at me that make me especially angry with SRE aren’t even about Jackie:
- SRE gleefully inserts this line: “UVA’s aura of preppy success, where throngs of toned, tanned and overwhelmingly blond students fanned across a landscape”. That’s disgusting and even if the story is 100% true, it’s a horrible characterization. It’s as bad as any negative racial or gender stereotype. Really? 20,000+ preppy tanned blondes? I’ve spent a lot of time there recently and I assure you that’s not the case.
- Her use of the little known “Rugby Road” lyrics is also unforgivable. As many UVA alums have noted in these comments, very few people know the lyrics beyond the first two verses. It’s clear SRE used these lyrics to add more powder to the keg.
I believe most people are well intentioned, and I can give everyone in this story the benefit of the doubt EXCEPT Erdely. She should never be forgiven for the mess she created.
I’m very thankful that you had the courage to step back and ask people to wait for facts rather than just react emotionally. You helped us all recognize our own biases and to look closer for the truth. The good that comes from this may be that lesson: when we hear something that plays to our preexisting biases, be extra suspicious.
Thanks.
12/6/2024 12:55 pm
1st year dad nails it.
12/6/2024 1:08 pm
“Shutting down the frats during the last few weeks of the semester isn’t an overreaction. I don’t think it’s fair to criticize her for taking these steps. She’s walking a very delicate line.”
And where is this so-called “delicate line” Sullivan has been walking?
Where is there, in any thing she has said, any awareness of the harm done to her own students by false accusations of a despicable crime? Why, when the evidence turns so strongly against the truth of those accusations, does she in effect simply double down on her blaming of the very students who have been falsely accused?
Some “delicate line”. It couldn’t be more obvious that the only people she cares about are those insisting that there is an enormous problem at UVA with “rape culture”. She couldn’t care in the least about the mental state of those of her own students who have been falsely accused of a despicable crime, or of the effect of her own decision to suspend their activities in conferring credibility on those false accusations.
12/6/2024 1:09 pm
As a current member of a Phi Kappa Psi chapter at a university nowhere near UVA I want to thank you for the level-headed research and writing over the last few weeks. When this story first came out it sickened me to read and realize that the name of the fraternity I am proudly a member of, a name that is on my professional resume as I search for a job, was so strongly associated with this act. Number of my relatives including my parents are UVA alum but weren’t in greek life. It was incredibly awkward to go home for thanksgiving break and speak about this with them. They all know I would never knowingly associate with an organization that did this stuff but it wasn’t hard to read the back of their mind where they were thinking if this goes on there, what exactly goes on at your house? Trying to come to terms with the fact that many people would now instantly be judging me for my relationship with an organization that had only brought good things too my life previously was hard.
Prior to reading your 1st post, my brothers and I were confused on a handful of points, some of which you addressed some of which you didn’t.
1) The broken glass table. We had a friend fall through one about two years ago and he required some immediate assistance from us and a ride in an ambulance. It was a very scary situation and would not have ended well if he waited an hour much less 3 to get help and then not gone to the hospital. Obviously injury from this can vary but the idea that she went thru the table and then endured the ensuing violence for 3 hours on top of broken glass and not going to the hospital was even an option seems like a slim possibility.
2) How did they expect to get away with this? Leaving a girl you just did this to in your house to react as she wants when she comes to is asking to be caught. Jackie’s described reaction of quickly leaving and not immediately reporting the incident was the best they could have hoped for. This attack is described as premeditated yet there is no effort to cover their tracks? College kids are good at stretching limits and getting away with it, even if these were the 7 least intelligent guys at UVA you would think they’d have come up with a better aftermath plan than this.
3) The part where a comment close to ‘do it if you want to be a brother’ is expressed strongly suggests that this is an initiation or pledge activity. If this was the case it is almost certain that this scene has been replicated yearly at this chapter for a number of years. There is a high level of secrecy in fraternities but even the best at keeping their secrets have them leaked. This is described as a various gruesome and violent act and the idea that it could be kept secret so well for this long is hard to buy. Additionally I don’t know the exact statistic of how many rapes go unreported but to me it seems that there would have been at least one girl who immediately reported this at some point in previous years.
For myself the most frustrating part of this is that while this is a hot button topic right now it will quickly fad for most of the nation and Rolling Stone and Erdley will get to continue their lifes as mostly normal while 80% of the damage done to the name of UVA, Phi Kappa Psi, Greek life in general and most importantly the credibility of rape survivors will stick. I played lacrosse most of my life so the Duke lacrosse scandal a number of years ago caused some similar embarrassment as the culture of “lacrosse players” was a big target in that case. Despite the fact that it eventually came out to be false accusations (DA lost his job over how prejudicial he was in going after the players), 75% of Americans who weren’t affected by that (see lacrosse players) still think they were guilty because they’d lost interest in the story by the time the facts came out. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard people make Duke lacrosse rap comments/jokes who then had zero idea it was proven to be a lie when I inform them of the facts.
“Guilty til proven innocent” seems to be a scarily popular trend in this country and is basically the rule of law if you’re a fraternity member. This story was crafted to exploit that truth and RS & Erdley knew exactly what they were doing then and know exactly what their doing now with their a** covering shame of an “apology”.
I just want to thank you again for seeking the truth and not rushing to hop on the “fraternities are the organizations of rapists” bandwagon. While not nearly enough people will take the time to read yours and others work and learn the facts, we still appreciate the effort.
12/6/2024 1:10 pm
Sorry, anon of 1:08 was me.
12/6/2024 1:14 pm
“As to the larger question of the existence of “rape culture”–well, that is an ongoing discussion, and I hope to participate in it.”
If anything good can come out of this, a discussion/examination of the question of “rape culture” might come out of it. I said “might” now.
Is there really one? What exactly is going on our campuses? Either many of these obviously intelligent and sincere advocates - mostly women - are just terribly wrong - or there is something terribly wrong going on among some men on our campuses. Or is it something in between?
Even if the advocates are only half right, or even a tenth, that terrible tenth is not acceptable.
According to the FBI’s crime statistics, rates of rape in the America have been thankfully declining over the past several decades. And yet rape is epidemic on our campuses? What is going on?
This needs to be addressed but we have to be careful in reading about the issue from unreasonable advocates likes the ones we’ve seen respond to this sad story. Careful does not mean ignore; it means careful.
12/6/2024 1:16 pm
I’m glad that Richard mentions point 6, which has been woefully ignored by almost all reporters and columnists.
Per its webpage, UVA’s Inter-Fraternity Council governs thirty fraternities. All thirty were suspended for the alleged actions of members of one fraternity? That’s a collective punishment that’s completely inconsistent with basic ideas of responsibility and fairness.
12/6/2024 1:17 pm
First: Richard - thank you for your blog and careful dissection of the story.
I’ll stick to just one dimension: by suggesting that the act was an initiation rite, every single current and former member of the fraternity was implicated. This is a fantastical claim and should have been treated with incredible diligence on the part of the author and RS.
Once published, the claim should have been immediately challenged by the Administration. Either they are absolutely incompetent (and therefore indirectly complicit) and have allowed sociopathic activity to flourish under their watch or, they are are engaged, involved administrators who would know from their daily job duties that this claim was grotesquely outrageous. If the later, their response would have been more measured, deliberate and careful. They would have projected a neutral tone until facts were established before finding fault, meting punishment and rewriting policy.
By choosing to react as they did, it demonstrates that they are reactive, unengaged administrators who should be replaced by ones who are responsible to every student under their watch.
Every member and and every former member deserves and public and direct apology from the administration. To show their understanding, members of the administration and faculty that implicated all current and former members could start by walking over and repainting the outside of the defaced house in front of the press.
12/6/2024 1:43 pm
Richard
I contacted Hanna Rosin very early this morning thru Twitter and gave her the update from the Washington Post on “Andy” — She has responded with a brand new story.
Here’s the link:
Key Player in UVA Rape Story: Rolling Stone Never Talked to Me
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/12/06/rolling_stone_uva_rape_story_continues_to_unravel_jackie_s_friend_andy_speaks.html?wpsrc=fol_tw
12/6/2024 1:43 pm
RW: The Rolling Stone reporter has unwittingly created an analogous situation to what universities face when dealing with sexual assault allegations in the first place. Without an accuser going to law enforcement, or, evidence of witnesses, quite often no one is left with any clear sense of what actually happened, or, exactly what to do.
Unfortunately, now, this “incident” at UVa (assuming something happened at all) is being played out in the court of public opinion and debate, a worst case scenario for everyone involved or implicated.
One more issue: college campuses are not typical urban environments where on a base level everyone is “anonymous” to other people. Universities are particular, smaller, communities, and all of their students have a stake in the community, and in the outcome of their experiences and academic efforts there. This adds to the complexity of dealing with both legitimate complaints of sexual assault, and, with false reports of assault.
12/6/2024 1:45 pm
Thank you for your work on this story. If all journalism aspired to such level-headed, even-handed, truth-oriented work, it would again be a profession held in high esteem. The vast majority of it seems co-opted by ideology of the right or the left. I’m hopeful the bruises RS gets from this, as well as activists who are willing to abandon truth for unquestioned ideology, will lead to better and more productive conversations and reporting about important issues.
12/6/2024 1:49 pm
NB: That should be: RB, (and not RW), my error. Sorry!
12/6/2024 1:50 pm
Couple points, and a thought.
* Kudos for bringing attention this story, and your ability to maintain an even keel is pretty remarkable.
* I thought Merlan’s apology was fine. Too bad others cannot find the words.
It seems as though there are categories of crimes/transgressions that are so severe that people making such accusations should only be embraced with love and understanding, but never questioned. I get the empathy point. I really do. But don’t the people who talk that way realize the trap they are getting into? IOW, if sympathy for victims has to trump verification, in certain cases, then accusations become proof.
At this point I feel a mental stew simmering, with elements of McMartin preschool, Salem witchcraft, Jim Crow lynchings, To Kill a Mockingbird, Woody Allen and Bill Cosby all included. Not to say which is which — IOW, not letting anyone off the hook — just pointing that there’s a concept here that needs to be looked at. Moral panic? I don’t know.
WRT sexual assault, clearly, it exists, and it is a problem. But clearly it is a problem facilitated by young men and women being acculturated to casual sex, so that has to be part of it. Attempts to get consent every step of the way, or even written consent, is starting to sound like old fashioned banns for marriage. And that should tell us something. Has anyone ever thought long and hard about how sexual activity, especially among young people, can lead to enormous psychological upset? That sexual activity can in fact lead to a phenomenon that we used to call “falling in love”? Not trying to be too old fashioned here, but there is a major discrepancy between the bodily function of hooking up and the psychological and emotional state of being in love. Perhaps this has something to do with our culture of sexual assault. Young men and women are supposed to be playing a game in which sexual availability is the entre to social normality. Clearly, that’s a large part of “rape culture”. But who is going to say that maybe that’s what very few people want? This deeper problem isn’t going to be solved by “lynch culture.”
Thanks for your thoughtful and level headed work in this area.
12/6/2024 1:57 pm
It would be interesting to hear your thoughts about Jackie’s friends. Her friends from the community of activist that now don’t believe her version of the RS story. What does this say about Jackie? Did she “embellish” or did she create something out of whole cloth? What about the interview with Andy. The friend who says they came to her rescue 1 mile from the fraternity row. He says she was upset, said there was forced oral sex but no bruises or blood. And now Jackie says she never told RS that the attacker was a Phi Psi. What do you make of that?
12/6/2024 1:59 pm
You’re too polite, Richard. Let me be less diplomatic:
12/6/2024 2:01 pm
To clarify, Andy’s interview that Jackie claimed it was forced oral sex is still horrible thing to contemplate. I am not dismissing that.
12/6/2024 2:04 pm
SteveMG .. “According to the FBI’s crime statistics, rates of rape in the America have been thankfully declining over the past several decades. And yet rape is epidemic on our campuses? What is going on?”
Rape is not “epidemic on our campuses”, and there is not even a single shred of evidence to suggest that it is. In fact a big problem for the “rape survivors advocacy groups” is the tiny number of actual victims of actual rape. For some reason (and that reason is deserving of exploration) the colleges and “rape victim advocates” WANT there to be much higher numbers of rapes than there actually are.
“Federal law requires colleges to publish reported crimes affecting their students. The numbers of reported sexual assaults—the law does not require their confirmation—usually run under half a dozen a year on private campuses and maybe two to three times that at large public universities. You might think that having so few reports of sexual assault a year would be a point of pride; in fact, it’s a source of gall for students and administrators alike. Yale’s associate general counsel and vice president were clearly on the defensive when asked by the Yale alumni magazine in 2004 about Harvard’s higher numbers of reported assaults; the reporter might as well have been needling them about a Harvard-Yale football rout. “Harvard must have double-counted or included incidents not required by federal law,” groused the officials. The University of Virginia does not publish the number of its sexual-assault hearings because it is so low. “We’re reticent to publicize it when we have such a small ‘n’ number,” says Nicole Eramu, Virginia’s associate dean of students.”
http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_1_campus_rape.html
There’s a lot of other useful information in that article. As you’ll see, it dates from 2008 and obviously the comprehensive debunking of the “campus rape myth” it contains has had no appreciable result. So another good question to ask would be “Why is the campus rape myth so impervious to facts and reason?”
It bears remarkable similarities to the “Satanic child abuse” hysteria which swept America in the late 1980’s and 1990’s. One similarity is that the press, which supposedly has an important fact checking function in deciding what stories get into the public square, were then are now completely and willingly credulous in passing on frankly preposterous allegations without the slightest hint of skepticism.
12/6/2024 2:04 pm
Rubin Erdely has published a number of “bombshell” pieces on sexual assault in the military, etc. Seems like an enterprising journalist out there might make some hay by poking around those pieces for fabrications.
12/6/2024 2:16 pm
Richard, thank you for your fine work. I still vividly remember the Duke Lacrosse hoax (not least because, as a rabid UNC fan, I was surprised to find that I apparently had more concern for Duke students than did the faculty). This story smelled so strongly of a similar-type hoax from the beginning that I can’t believe it was ever approved for publication, much less believed by any reader.
There certainly is a cultural lesson embedded here, but it’s not the one of the mythical university “rape culture” (which, if true, would prevent any women from ever desiring to attend college). No, the lesson here is that known terrorists get sympathetic media coverage and barely anyone bats an eye, but we’re all supposed to unquestioningly believe and condemn tales of horrific, sociopathic behaviors by… young members of a fraternity at a lovely university.
Dzhokhar Tsarnaev gets a dreamy RS cover, but their journalists weren’t willing to give alleged rapist “Drew” the chance to say he didn’t do anything, or even verify that he exists? How did we get to this point?
12/6/2024 2:29 pm
Everyone should watch Carol Tavris TAM talk about campus rape - that most of it involves “honest conflicting accounts” of what happened and the fact that “women have trouble clearly saying no while men have trouble hearing it”, not “rape culture”. Understanding what really causes these unfortunate situations (of one’s goal is to reduce suffering rather than grind an ideological axe) is the key to reducing them. The “rape culture” diagnosis combined with University administrator PR spinnin leads to the worst possible outcomes: that the (relatively few) real rapists go unpunished AND too many men get expelled for unfortunate situations that are not rape. And we get nowhere in actual reducing the number of regrettable events that are shy of criminal rape. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMi0UtvTIc
12/6/2024 3:08 pm
The big Washington Post story by T. Rees Shapiro has-dismayingly-many problems of its own, including instances of journalistic carelessness and the promotion of questionable claims through anonymous sources.
To wit:
Alex Pinkleton, a close friend of Jackie’s who survived a rape and an attempted rape during her first two years on campus, said in an interview…
- Is it an established fact that Pinkleton was raped and attempted raped? Why is the Washington Post reporting it as such? I would bet this should read, “Pinkleton claims/says.”
- Did these alleged incidents occur on campus? The Washington Post should clarify.
- When did the media start using the phrasing “survive” sexual assault? Is that the appropriate word to use?
- Suggested phrasing: “Pinkleton says she was victim of sexual assaults”
The Post interviewed Jackie several times during the past week and has worked to corroborate her version of events…
What is Jackie’s “version of events”? Is it the story that appeared in Rolling Stone? Is it a version she is now telling? The Washington Post doesn’t say.
Jackie recounted an attack very similar to the one she presented in the magazine: She had gone on a date with a member of the house, went to a party there and ended up in a room where she was brutally attacked — seven men raping her in succession, with two others watching.
Vaginal rape? Oral? The Washington Post doesn’t say.
Rolling Stone ran a lengthy article about what it characterized as a culture of sex assault at the flagship state university, using Jackie’s story to illustrate how brazen such attacks can be and how indifferent the university is to them.
Shouldn’t this instead be written: using Jackie’s story to illustrate how brazen such alleged attacks can be and how allegedly indifferent the university is to them?
Jackie’s story empowered many women to speak publicly about attacks on them, but it also immediately raised questions about the decisions Jackie made that evening — not going to a hospital or reporting the alleged crime to police or the school
Here’s how this should have been written:
“Jackie’s story empowered many women to speak publicly about alleged attacks on them, but it also immediately raised questions about the decisions Jackie allegedly made that evening — not going to a hospital or reporting the alleged crime to police or the school”
Although Jackie shared elements of her story at a Take Back the Night event at the university
What elements of which of the stories? The Washington Post doesn’t specify.
A student identified as “Andy” in the Rolling Stone article said in an interview with The Post Friday night that Jackie did call him and two other friends for help a few weeks into the fall semester in 2012.
- Is Andy his real name? Why hasn’t the Washington Post given his full name? The newspaper doesn’t tell us.
- “A few weeks into the fall semester.” Actual dates have become very important to this story. What night did this occur? The Washington Post doesn’t tell us.
He said Jackie said that “something bad happened” and that he ran to meet her on campus, about a mile from the school’s fraternities.
He “ran” (as in jogged) a mile to meet her? Why a mile off campus? Is there any first year student housing a mile off campus?
“Andy” said Jackie said she had been at a fraternity party and had been forced to perform oral sex on a group of men
How is one forced to perform oral sex on a group? Force must be difficult to impossible, so some kind of threats should be assumed to be necessary. What happened here? Was a gun put to her head? Did Shapiro ask “Andy”?
She, instead, wanted to return to her dorm, and he and the friends spent the night with her to comfort her at her request.
Were they up all night? Did they sleep on the floor? Was there a roommate there?
Renda said she was raped her freshman year after attending a fraternity party.
Is the Post implicating the fraternity here? Did they alleged rape occur in the fraternity house?
Renda said Thursday that Jackie initially told her she was attacked by five students at Phi Kappa Psi.
What does the Post/Renda mean here by t “attacked”?
Renda said Thursday that Jackie initially told her she was attacked by five students at Phi Kappa Psi. Renda said she learned months later that Jackie had changed the number of attackers from five to seven.
Isn’t the number now at 9, per the Rolling Stone story? The Post should note that here.
Jackie’s former roommate, Rachel Soltis, said she noticed emotional and physical changes to her friend during the fall semester of 2012, when they shared a suite.
Was Soltis in the suite the night Jackie came home with Andy and the rest of her friends and they all spent that night together?
The Post asked Jackie numerous times to reveal the full name of the two attackers she said she recognized. She declined, saying she didn’t want the perpetrator “to come back in my life.”
How would revealing the names bring the alleged men back into her life?
Jackie said the Rolling Stone account of her attack was truthful, but she also acknowledged that some details in the article might not be accurate.
Which details? Did the Post even ask her?
12/6/2024 3:33 pm
Anonymous: I understand why people are angry with President Sullivan. I think you have to remember, however, that UVA is still under scrutiny for its overall policies and handling of sexual assault. Imagine if she had held a press conference after the RS article and said “prove it”. That would have been reckless and insensitive to everything swirling around her.
From my perspective, I’ve been impressed with how quickly she’s communicated with parents. I don’t envy her or Dean Eramo. They’re doing the best within the system as it exists today. The RS article created a mess but I don’t think it’s her job to apologize. It’s a good idea to get through exams and hope that a new year / new semester bring clearer heads.
12/6/2024 3:38 pm
The state of Massachusetts did an exhaustive examination of college rapes and sexual assaults in that state over a twelve year span from 2000 to 2011. You can find it by googling “Analysis of College Campus Rape and Sexual Assault Reports, 2000 – 2011″
“Massachusetts General Law requires the reporting of all cases of rape and sexual assault where the victim sought medical treatment, regardless of whether the case was ever reported to police.” That is, the methodology used delivers a higher count than that of rapes and sexual assaults as reported to the police. (Roughly twice as high, according to the report.)
According to this study there were 446 cases of rape and/or sexual assault on college campuses during the years in question. That’s not “per year”, it’s the sum total over 12 years.
Massachusetts has a lot of colleges and a lot of college students, many more relative to the size of the state than the average for America. It’s difficult to put an exact figure on exactly how many students there are but it is approximately 400,000. The student population over the time in question is much greater. I don’t think anybody knows exactly how many students passed through Massachusetts colleges between 2000 and 2011, but a very conservative estimate would be 1.2 million.
446 incidents of rape or sexual assault in a population of 1.2 million is not one-in-four, or one-in-ten, or one-in-one-hundred, or even one-in-a-thousand. You can send your daughter to college without worrying that you’re sending her into a rape camp.
12/6/2024 4:19 pm
Rape culture? More like Culture of Critique.
12/6/2024 4:29 pm
Mr. Bradley, I hope you continue to pay attention to these points you have raised. We are in the midst of some disturbing times, not at all unlike the day care child abuse witch hunts, but on a much larger scale, and the arena needs talented and critical minds.
Again I wish I could one day buy you a drink in thanks for your courageous efforts.
12/6/2024 4:30 pm
Richard,
Very well written and you should enjoy much deserved attention for your tireless and non-biased efforts on this. However, I think you’re cutting Anna a touch too much slack in #1. As I posted in another forum:
Anna Merlan kinda, sorta tried an apology, but then she couldn’t help herself and went off the rails in her parenthetical:
(And, frankly, it could have been avoided, had Erdely been clearer in her disclosures about what she’d done to reach Jackie’s alleged attackers and what her agreement with the girl had been. This announcement wouldn’t be producing nearly the same shockwaves if those things had been clearly outlined.)
No Anna, frankly this could have been avoided had Erdely done any investigation at all, concluded that Jackie was at least seriously exaggerating if not outright lying and subsequently spiked the piece.
12/6/2024 4:37 pm
The statistics should be questioned and the issue debated. That does not mean that we do not have a serious problem with sexual assault on college campuses, however.
While UVa alumni, the administration, the current student body, and the nation at large dealt with initial reactions to the allegations in Erdely’s article over the Thanksgiving holiday, a young woman was assaulted by five men at William Paterson University. All five of these men are eighteen years old, as is the woman. The men have been arrested.
President Sullivan is right: we have a problem and we must fix it.
12/6/2024 4:38 pm
1styeardad,
Of course it’s Sullivan’s responsibility to redress the harm done to the reputation of the students in fraternities at UVA, especially since she by her own act of suspending the activities of the fraternities gave credence to the false accusations in RS — it was of course that very article that precipitated that extreme decision.
And she might have found any number of ways of dealing with the fact that those allegations have imploded, which would have acknowledged that the allegations should not be treated as a fact in virtue of which punishment of fraternities was called for. Instead, she just doubled down on the blame she obviously believes they deserve.
Would any such move infuriate those who want desperately to believe there’s a “rape culture” at UVA? Of course — but then truth and fairness means nothing to these people anyway.
And likely Sullivan’s behavior is even more outrageously unfair than we even know yet. Because it is very likely that she was fully aware of the weaknesses in Jackie’s story, because she would have heard so from Dean Eramo herself, among others. A statement had been put out by the administration to the effect that they were hearing things in the story about Jackie that they had never been apprised of.
Yet despite this inside knowledge, Sullivan went ahead and suspended the activities of the fraternities as if those allegations were true.
Anyone with an ounce of integrity and the smallest amount of conscience would not have proceeded like that.
The truth is obvious that Sullivan simply doesn’t care about the damage done to the students in the fraternities, and is happy to keep it in place and exploit it for her purposes.
It certainly looks like, as far as she is concerned, members of fraternities are subhuman garbage about whose lives she has no care.
She’s not exactly King Solomon.
She should be removed from office.
12/6/2024 4:42 pm
Has Sabrina Rubin Erdely written anything on the prevalence and punishment of sex crimes within the Jewish community?
12/6/2024 4:47 pm
77 - “The statistics should be questioned and the issue debated. That does not mean that we do not have a serious problem with sexual assault on college campuses, however.”
I guess that all depends on what you think constitutes a “serious problem .with sexual assault on college campuses”. Since you don’t quantify it, or attempt to quantify it, it’s possible that you would regard one rape on a college campus anywhere in America over a ten year span as a “serious problem with sexual assault on college campuses”. In which case I’d say you are entitled to your opinion but that I don’t agree with it.
How can you arrive at your conclusion without first examining the statistics?
12/6/2024 5:00 pm
candid_observer,
UVa Pres. Sullivan has been placed in a very difficult position, that is: damned if she does and damned if she don’t. Perhaps public opine should give her some breathing space before everyone blames her for her directives regarding frats on the grounds.
When this particular version of “Jackie’s” story was still considered by many to be credible, Sullivan was being pilloried for jetting off to a conference in the Netherlands while the story broke. Many observers said that her suspension of frat activities was a superficial gesture, since hardly anything happens around UVa. in this period anyway-everyone’s either preparing for finals or the holidays.
So which is it? Was Sullivan being “too easy on the frats” or draconian and punitive? If this story reveals itself to be yet more bogus, then a resumption of regular frat socializing after January 9th probably won’t be regarded as the most awful thing that ever happened to the Greek community on campus.
12/6/2024 5:13 pm
I completely agree with you about Sullivan’s decision to suspend fraternity activities. It was a weak move, and will only serve to greatly increase student animosity towards “Jackie”.
12/6/2024 5:15 pm
I’m checking Sabrina Levin Erdely’s archives and currently reading her story “The Transgender Crucible”. This story appeared about a month before the events in Ferguson. Yes, there is once again plenty of shattered glass but the story is based on well established facts. We have a case of an unarmed lower class white man named Schmitz with his hands up (albeit his fists were clenched in a defensive posture) and more or less saying “don’t stab” to a transgender black man/woman named CeCe.
OK the white guy actually said, “”Bitch, you gonna stab me?”
Then comes the key sentence. In pretrial hearings witnesses claimed the white guy did NOT make a move towards the transgender person.
Rubin Erdely gets around this slight problem by stating:
“CeCe saw Schmitz lunge toward her and braced herself for impact.”
Once again, when reality comes in conflict with the Narrative, Rubin Erdely switches the point of view to that of the heroine of the story. She does not inform us that the other witnesses do not support this version of events. This way it is not Rubin Erdely lying, it is Cece.
Then CeCe stabs the unarmed Schmitz. By the way we are told multiple time the white guy has a swastika tattooed on his chest — which was covered and not visible though until the autopsy.
“Bitch – you stabbed me!”
“Yes, I did,”
Imagine if Darren Wilson and Michael Brown has this exchange. Did Rubin Erdely decide right there that knifing an unarmed by troubled white guy was the height of injustice? Did she turn this event into a “Hand Up — Don’t Stab” event for poor whites?
Did Rubin Erdely focus in like a laser on the amount of time Schnitz’s body lay on the pavement?
No she didn’t.
But what we do have is an example of how important Identity, race, and gender are to determining, at least in the elite media’s mind, about who will be supported as victims and who will be thrown under the bus.
What we have is Feminism’s George Zimmerman and Darren Wilson rolled into one. CeCe killed an unarmed white man who posed no direct threat to her. All she had to do was walk away. If Schmitz had indeed lunged at her then she would have been totally justified in wasting his sorry ass. But the witnesses just do not collaborate this version of events.
It would be interesting, in light of Ferguson, to get Rubin Erdely to comment on why she didn’t frame her story the same way the major media did for Michael Brown.
Why no, “Hand Up, Don’t Stab”?
12/6/2024 5:16 pm
Richard
Thank you so much for exposing the apparent lies of the “Jackie” and Erdely. More critically, I am grateful for your exploration of the concept of pre-existing biases and how they color just about everything we see, but more especially the sensational stories that we hear about in the media. Far too many of us were too willing to indulge in this story because it involved a group of white men from a rich, old money fraternity at a rich, old money Southern university. Would this story had resonated had it involved a black fraternity at UVA? Would it have resonated if it had occurred in New Hampshire?
Thanks again for your willingness to approach this story with fresh eyes.
12/6/2024 5:28 pm
All down the line,
Brilliant. I think its time someone went through all of Erdely’s pieces, starting with the most political ones.
12/6/2024 5:32 pm
“But it’s not courageous to enjoy all the attention when you’re riding high and then vanish when things go south. ”
A lack of accountability is pervasive in today’s society. People will say “I take responsibility” but then there are little to no consequences and questionable change going forward.
This speaks to a real lack of character on the part of Ms. Rubin Erdely…not just for her willingness to engage in what certainly appears to be an agenda-driven piece to begin with, but with her MIA routine after it became evident that her actions or lack thereof were indefensible.
You’ve taken the high road, Mr. Bradley- you are to be commended for this series that should make any serious journalist or those who one day aspire to join that profession sit up and take note.
Journalists are in the business of reporting and that can often lead to demands for accountability. That standard is no less true for reporters who fail to hold up their end when it comes to publishing their stories.
She has done irreparable damage to her career and profession- it’s made worse with each passing day that she refuses to account (or acts upon bad advice to remain silent).
12/6/2024 5:35 pm
My free advice? Take your own - go back to Richard’s Rules from the post that started it all:
“The lesson I learned: One must be most critical, in the best sense of that word, about what one is already inclined to believe.”
I suspect there are a lot of people inclined to believe the Wash Post refutation of the Rolling Stone piece. So read it critically.
It comes off as vindication for Phi Psi, devastation for the Rolling Stone, and unanswered questions for the Wash Post.
Basically, why are we sure Jackie simply didn’t have the right guy but the wrong frat? A lot of effort went into checking Phi Psi’s social calendar, et al. What about the frat calendar of the “right” lifeguard” with the right-enough name?
Keep in mind - per the WaPO, Jackie’s ID of Phi Psi was based on (as I read it) one of her rescuers pointing it out to her as the scene of the crime a year later. If Jackie ran from the “rape house” rather than waiting calmly by the door, one might think any other nearby frat could have been the actual crime scene.
The lifeguard said, by phone, he had never met Jackie. Did the WaPo get a picture, put it in a photo array, and show it to jackie? FWIW, if she failed to pick his photo that would be telling; If she picked him, well, maybe she remembers him from around the pool and cast him as the villain in her own PTSD nightmare. But did the WaPo do this test?
Did they try to interview other lifeguards who might remember a freshman/upperclassman mini-romance that flamed out suddenly and mysteriously? (NOT outing Jackie and the lifeguard while doing this is tricky but possible with open, not directed questions.)
Did they try to track down Jackie’s alleged assailant from her Anthropology class (or any similar classes, like History) that might have had a guy, probably a sophomore, in the same frat as the lifeguard? Privacy rule might protect those records, but maybe the prof remembers, or something (it was a small discussion group.)
The police *might* be able to get cell phone records going back to Sept 2012. If the lifeguard and Jackie texted/chatted, why does he claim not to know her know, hmm?
We all understand, per Caitlin Flanagan as quoted by Benedikt/Rosin, that organized gang rape is beyond anything she encountered in her extensive research into fraternity depravity.
And Erdely went shopping for a lurid tale, so she increased the odds of meeting someone who, for whatever reason, is not in the full embrace of Reality (PTSD can mess up memory, and Jackie has been diagnosed.)
So the odds are that the “right guy, wrong frat” notion won’t stand up either. But the WaPo has not, as best I can see, pinned that down.
12/6/2024 5:45 pm
“I’m sure that Rubin Erdely, who has apparently written a lot of great stuff in her career,”
Are we sure about that?
https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/12/05/the-uva-false-rape-fabulists/#comment-635394
12/6/2024 6:01 pm
Note to Rolling Stone and Sabrina Rubin Erdely:
Here’s a good example of accountability, ethics and leadership. Just sayin’…
http://io9.com/animal-welfare-science-an-apology-and-an-analysis-1665259272
12/6/2024 6:10 pm
Pass a federal law similar to the duty to report child abuse.
12/6/2024 6:14 pm
“The police *might* be able to get cell phone records going back to Sept 2012. If the lifeguard and Jackie texted/chatted, why does he claim not to know her know, hmm?”
If you beat up some anonymous guy with a baseball bat two years ago, why are you denying you knew the guy? Hmmm?
12/6/2024 6:23 pm
MAY BE GETTING WORSE
See this about the RS writer —
“Before a writer for Rolling Stone ever made the mistake of believing an alleged gang-rape story told by a student named “Jackie,” she bought an alleged multiple-rape story told by a former altar boy named “Billy” ..
” .. There’s lots of irony here folks for readers of this blog. The writer of the story in question, contributing editor Sabrina Rubin Erdely, is from Philadelphia. Before she bought Jackie’s story, she fell for a story told by a former altar boy dubbed “Billy Doe” by a grand jury.
“In Rolling Stone, it seems rape is bigger than rock. On Sept. 15, 2011, Erderly wrote a story for Rolling Stone that accepted as gospel Billy Doe’s astounding claims about being passed around as a rape victim among two priests and a school teacher. [The Catholic Church’s Secret Sex-Crime Files.] In Erdely’s defense, she, like many other members of the media, made the mistake of relying on an intellectually dishonest grand jury report containing more than 20 factual errors.
“Attention Rolling Stone: if you think the factual discrepancies in Jackie’s story are “deeply unsettling,” wait till you read all the factual discrepancies in Billy’s story, which has been chronicled for the past two years on this blog. Sadly, the stakes here are a lot higher than in Virginia, where none of the alleged attackers have even been outed. In Philly, three priests and a school teacher wound up going to jail over Billy’s story, which has since unraveled. One of those priests died in prison last month after he spent his last hours handcuffed to a hospital bed while dying of untreated coronary disease.
Read more at http://www.bigtrial.net/2014/12/before-rolling-stone-was-conned-by.html#FsSMUBMSDF60xxRx.99
12/6/2024 6:24 pm
Hi Sabrina, I’m guessing you might be reading this. Look, you’ve had a long and distinguished career as a writer, but you obviously really really screwed up this one. To save your reputation, and do the right thing in the process, you should come out and explain exactly what happened and say “I’ve had a long and distinguished career but I really screwed this one up”. Playing hermit just makes you look cowardly and dishonest. My second piece of advice (this is all free!) would be that you disassociate yourself completely from RS. They will throw you under the bus soon as look at you, so admit that now and start defending yourself. Once again, just get the truth out there and apologize where it’s called for - it will help resolve this thing and is probably in your own long term interest after a lot of short term pain.
12/6/2024 6:27 pm
Steve,
Many critics of the article have conceded the point about rape prevalence, as if it was the throwaway in a concession assertion essay. I think that’s a mistake. Colleges would be dark and awful places if the rate even remotely approached one in five - and there’s absolutely no data to support those figures.
This is a point that we should push back on. You can’t build good policy around bad math. The solution to one in five is going to look very different from 446 in 1.2 million.
- CS
12/6/2024 6:34 pm
Mr. Bradley,
I understand your reticence to continue with your explorations in these matters. With the waxen and slovenly thousand-faceted stare of the online lynch brigade now sloughing off in your direction, I understand it’s uncomfortable. Especially as a fine example of the profession. Just want you to know that I stand with you and would lock arms with you on any field of mortal battle, with relish.
Your honourable intentions are also clearly on display in your acceptance of such an ungrateful non-apology. Humans who value their integrity don’t have to apologize very often, from what I’ve heard tell. Solemn head nod in your direction, good sir.
12/6/2024 6:52 pm
I would like to thank Mr. Bradley for his reporting on this story. I have one additional observation concerning one of his fiercest critics, Liz Seccuro. When RS issued its apology yesterday afternoon, Ms. Seccuro issued a series of tweets. One of them simply read “I’m heartbroken.” I was astonished to read that tweet. Shouldn’t she have been elated that the apology made it, at the very least, a little less likely that the horrendous crime occurred (at least in the manner reported by RS)? This seemed to me to be a bizarre response. I noticed that the tweet has since been deleted from her twitter account, so it appears I am not the only person that found the twitter a little tone deaf.
12/6/2024 6:57 pm
Steve S
I know you have done a lot of research. I respect that. We do not need to react impulsively, and I don’t think that most people are. I have stated what I think about President Sullivan, so I won’t state it again. I seem to be in the minority opinion, but I stand by that opinion.
I will answer your question with a question (a rhetorical one, because there is no answer to what I am getting ready to ask):
How many rapes or gang rapes at universities would create a quantifiable threshold for you, whereby you would arrive at the conclusion that we either have a problem with actual rapes occurring on campuses, young women are suddenly fabricating tales of sexual assault, or young men and women are having consensual sexual relations that sometimes involve group sex.
I apologize for being so graphic, but this is what we are talking about. There are those who can debate the statistical issue with you, but I am not one of them. I don’t pretend to have a grasp of this subject. I am just trying to understand what is going on. I pulled up an article on UVa, and there was mention of the alleged assault at William Paterson. Certainly, as a society, we can do better by our young people-by our young women and our young men.
12/6/2024 7:12 pm
Not to overstate the obvious, but once you stipulate sexual freedom in a society, it becomes very difficult to police sexual activity, including sexual assault.
If sexes were segregated, if sexual activity outside of marriage was proscribed, if young men and women were never allowed to be alone together without chaperones, sexual assaults would plummet. (With due regard to marital rape, same sex rape, etc.)
Basically, if anyone can have sex with anyone (or anyones) by choice, then someone who presents as a victim of sexual assault (i.e., sex with one or others without choice), it becomes very, very hard to prove by any known evidentiary metric.
Principles of law that have been operative for centuries shouldn’t be dispensed with because of this problem.
12/6/2024 7:21 pm
@SPMoore8
Interestin post. A request for a few clarifications:
Not to overstate the obvious, but once you stipulate sexual freedom in a society, it becomes very difficult to police sexual activity, including sexual assault.
What is your definition of sexual assault?
Principled of law that have been operative for centuries…
What are you referring to in this paragraph?
12/6/2024 7:25 pm
Tom Maguire,
If I were on a jury trying Jackie (which is really what we are doing), I would be a hold out against a guilty verdict. Something happened to derail her life, and it apparently happened the night in question. I sincerely hope she can survive this ordeal, and become a doctor like she told the Washington Post reporter she wanted to do. If she was assaulted, she will live with that trauma the rest of her life. UVa will survive and so will Phi Psi and the media. Let’s just hope Jackie does.
12/6/2024 7:28 pm
WRT “sexual assault” I am thinking of penetration, which is I think a reasonable bar.
WRT legal principles, I mean the concepts of innocent until proven guilty, and due process. The idea that an allegation of sexual assault should be “automatically” or “generally” believed contradicts that idea.
I am not saying that there are not sexual assaults (as I have defined them), or gang rapes, or what have you. I’m sure there are. But in the old days, any trace of sexual activity was sufficient proof of assault. Today, all the guy has to say is that it was consensual. All the woman has to say is that it was not. How can anyone adjudicate competing stories like that?
12/6/2024 7:35 pm
Thank you for the reply SpMoore8.
Why don’t we just call it “rape” then? I ask the question not as a challenge but for possible discussion and reflection among all of us here.
12/6/2024 7:44 pm
Anon: That’s fine. I’m just trying to use the appropriate verbiage.
But let me add an observation. Most people have had some sexual contacts — sometimes short of intercourse, sometimes including intercourse — that they regretted almost immediately or not long after, because of revulsion and lack of desire for involvement. Sometimes people have had similar sexual contacts that they also regretted because one party had a lot more psychologically/emotionally invested in the sexual contact than the other party and did not like the turmoil that resulted. This happens to both men and women. I don’t consider either to be criminal, but both can certainly be traumatic. I think that’s part of what’s going on here, at least, some of the time.
WRT this case, “Andy’s” testimony makes it clear that whatever happened to this young woman it was not as retailed by RS. Who knows what happened. It could have been any number of things. But without immediate medical and police notification and intervention, whatever it is was cannot be proven now.
12/6/2024 7:51 pm
@ Tom Maguire,
In response to your question: “Basically, why are we sure Jackie simply didn’t have the right guy but the wrong frat?” The answer to that is because we have no evidence that a gang rape occurred, other than her story, and a significant amount of evidence that it didn’t. Enough evidence that it calls into doubt her reliability as a witness, because her current story is at odds with lots of other evidence.
Here’s the Post on interviewing Jackie’s friend “Andy”,
‘A student identified as “Andy” in the Rolling Stone article said in an interview with The Post Friday night that Jackie did call him and two other friends for help a few weeks into the fall semester in 2012. He said Jackie said that “something bad happened” and that he ran to meet her on campus, about a mile from the school’s fraternities.
The student, who said he never spoke to a Rolling Stone reporter, said Jackie seemed “really upset, really shaken up” but disputed other details of that article’s account. Rolling Stone said that the three friends found Jackie in a “bloody dress,” with the Phi Kappa Psi house looming in the background, and that they debated “the social price of reporting Jackie’s rape” before advising against seeking help. He said none of that is accurate.
“Andy” said Jackie said she had been at a fraternity party and had been forced to perform oral sex on a group of men, but he does not remember her identifying a specific house. He said he did not notice any injuries or blood but said the group offered to get her help. She, instead, wanted to return to her dorm, and he and the friends spent the night with her to comfort her at her request.
“The perception that I’m gravitating toward is that something happened that night and it’s gotten lost in different iterations of the stories that have been told,” said the student who requested anonymity. “Is there a possibility nothing happened? Sure. I think the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.”
‘
Then the Post has this quote from Emily Renda, a UVA sexual violence awareness specialist, “Renda said Thursday that Jackie initially told her she was attacked by five students at Phi Kappa Psi. Renda said she learned months later that Jackie had changed the number of attackers from five to seven.”
So, Jackie’s story at the time was dramatically different, per her friend Andy. And Andy’s story is also consistent with the report from Jackie’s roommate at the time (“no apparent wounds”) as well as Jackie never going to a hospital. Jackie’s story isn’t consistent with either of those. If her story at that time was true, she was criminally assaulted. But neither her story nor her condition, as reported by her friend, bears any resemblance to Jackie’s account in the RS article. Perhaps even more to the point, Jackie still insists to the Post that the gang rape story is true. And, we have someone else - on the record no less - pointing out that the number of attackers in Jackie’s story changed over time. The point is that this story has changed around so many times, who knows if there’s a kernel of truth - meaning an actual sexual assault - at the center of it.
Let’s suppose that I say that you, Tom Maguire, knifed me two years ago. But then, it turns out, that my friends saw me later that day without a stab wound, and I never went to a hospital. Plus you, Tom Maguire, can prove that you were in another place on that day. Well, then maybe it was actually a different person named Tom Maguire, who looks a lot like you. And maybe I wasn’t stabbed, it’s possible that someone actually punched and kicked me. Except that I still say that someone stabbed me with a knife, so the punching and kicking aren’t consistent with that. But I definitely got depressed, so my friends say that something could’ve happened, or probably happened, or maybe happened.
Out of the above, how the hell would you draw any conclusions whatsoever except that (i) maybe some violent event occurred (or maybe not) and (ii) however unfortunate it would be if something happened to me, I’m not a reliable narrator to say what happened.
12/6/2024 7:56 pm
77 - “How many rapes or gang rapes at universities would create a quantifiable threshold for you, whereby you would arrive at the conclusion that we either have a problem with actual rapes occurring on campuses”
If crime ‘X’ is happening more often on campus than in society at large, then we can say that “there is a serious problem with ‘X’ on campus”. That wasn’t difficult.
77 - “there was mention of the alleged assault at William Paterson”
That’s part of a different topic, and is treated as part of a different topic by the “campus rape” crowd themselves. To be blunt, they do not want to get into the discussion of rapes on campus carried out by black guys, or by black student athletes, many of whom are athletes first and foremost and students hardly at all.
The William Patterson story has not and will not get even a small fraction of the coverage of the UVA story, because crimes carried out by blacks are deemed not worthy of coverage in the same way that (alleged) crimes carried out by (allegedly) well off white guys are. But that gets us into a whole different area of media bias.
12/6/2024 8:03 pm
Anon: That’s fine. I’m just trying to use the appropriate verbiage.
We might ask why the more vague and ambiguous verbiage has come to supplant the more precise word. We also might ask whether it is appropriate to group crimes of forced penetration with other unwanted touching and with fear of touching.
12/6/2024 8:07 pm
@SPMoore8 - I agree with much of what you say about the difficulty of policing sexual assault in a culture of sexual freedom, though I’d phrase it a bit differently. I don’t think that universities have a rape culture, but a lot of them have a very significant “binge drink and hook up” culture. It is very difficult to adjudicate issues of consent in that culture, outside of extreme cases - like Jackie’s story as told in the RS article or someone caught slipping roofie’s in drinks. The whole issue of factoring alcohol impairment into figuring out consent is extremely challenging when both parties have been drinking, quite possibly heavily.
12/6/2024 8:12 pm
I posted the following on the PBS Newshour site just a while ago. T. Rees Shapiro of WaPo was interviewed by the Newshour about his journalism at UVa. It’s a brief interview with interesting observations and detail. My post, copied to this site:
DWLindeman:
T. Rees Shapiro says: “It appears pretty clear that she [i.e. Jackie] faced some sort of trauma. I can’t say for sure. But other details as they emerge are calling into question other parts of her story.”
This is a reasonable statement for Shapiro to make. It suggests at least two possibilities reg. Jackie’s mental state. Firstly: that she was victimized in some way at UVa, albeit not necessarily as recounted in the RS narrative. Or, secondly: that Jackie is a victim of trauma at some other point in her life, a trauma she relives by making accusations that are not related to reality. We may never find out what is true about Jackie’s story, but, if the public does not take into consideration both possibilities outlined here, a full understanding of what is true about this story may not be attainable.
12/6/2024 8:17 pm
Anon: Well, OK, at that point however we are no longer talking a young woman who was cruelly raped.
We are talking about cultural and media totems that either resonate with you personally or do not. A broad definition of “sexual assault” clearly supports the notion of a continuum of assaults, which supports the tendency to valorize or heroize victims. Let’s face it, we live in a culture where if you can claim to be a victim of just about anything you can become a talking-head martyr as a result. Again, I’m talking about our culture, not any particular victim of anything at this point. We are rapidly reaching the point where everyone is a hero and everyone is a survivor. Insofar as that opens up the compassion synapses in our brains, I’m not going to complain. But I am not the only one to find it somewhat absurd.
Not to ignore race issues, either. If 2014 proved nothing else, it is that certain behaviors are viewed differently, depending on the race of the agent involved. And there are clearly differences between how different “racial cultures” view different acts.
Okay, I know this takes us down the road where the culture, media, feminists, etc. are “into” demonizing white males. Whatever. I don’t believe it has much if any traction in real life. I think most “war against men” and “war against white men” rhetoric is also hopelessly exaggerated.
12/6/2024 8:28 pm
@Dave - Thank you. Look, I’m just an old white guy who has been married for 30 years. But I can tell you that, even in a committed relationship, if the liquor is flowing, there can be sexual encounters that either one or both parties will not be able to remember clearly the next day. That’s just a fact.
Obviously, if we ban all alcohol, and segregate the genders prior to marriage, rape (or sexual assault) claims will virtually disappear (again, excepting marital or same sex.) But that kind of draconian solution wouldn’t work, because people want to do what they want to do, which includes exercising bad judgment, and which includes getting drunk at a social gathering and engaging in sexual behavior.
Since that is the case, where do we go from here? Only thing I could say is that I think our culture is overly sexualized, that sexualization begins at appallingly early ages, that sex is held up as the greatest good in life, and certainly in “relationships”, and that women — in their cultural portrayals at least — are commonly depicted as little more than highly skilled sexbots. It’s not the world I have ever lived in, but it’s the world our culture promotes.
12/6/2024 8:31 pm
DWLindeman:
T. Rees Shapiro says: “It appears pretty clear that she [i.e. Jackie] faced some sort of trauma. I can’t say for sure. But other details as they emerge are calling into question other parts of her story.”
This is a reasonable statement for Shapiro to make. It suggests at least two possibilities reg. Jackie’s mental state. Firstly: that she was victimized in some way at UVa, albeit not necessarily as recounted in the RS narrative. Or, secondly: that Jackie is a victim of trauma at some other point in her life, a trauma she relives by making accusations that are not related to reality. We may never find out what is true about Jackie’s story, but, if the public does not take into consideration both possibilities outlined here, a full understanding of what is true about this story may not be attainable.
I believe it to be unfair and irresponsible of Shapiro to make such a statement. In context, he continues to point an accusatory finger-with zero credible evidence-at the UVa community and at least one member of it. There is no suggestion here that he is referring to some early childhood trauma of Jackie.
12/6/2024 8:35 pm
Kudos, Mr. Bradley! That took good intuition and bravery to do what you did.
I suspect you stopped something much bigger than any of us realize. There are now two rape related articles written by Rubin Erdely and published by Rolling Stone that look equally as bogus or worse.
There’s a military one that one guy on Twitter is tearing apart.
Another,if former reporter Ralph Cipriano, who is devoted to their cause is correct, is one of the saddest things: basically a repeat of Duke lacrosse/Nifong with Erdely whipping up mob before trial. The four were convicted. “Billy” has had his story unravel since.
One has had his conviction overturned, sadly another died recently. Cipriano says the d.a. was motivated by politics, but they can’t get anyone interested because it involved Catholic priests and a teacher.
Another look and interest is sorely needed, especially as they are in the midst of this fight.
The Catholic League wrote about Erdely’s article from a slightly different point focusing on how distorted and hateful it was vis a vis Catholicism, but they were a lone wolf.
http://www.bigtrial.net
Before Rolling Stone was Conned by “Jackie”, There was “Billy”
12/6/2024 8:38 pm
@DWLindeman At this point, I think we are just going in circles WRT “Jackie”. The only really reliable claim that we have so far is that she (presumably called) her friends from the campus on a Friday night in September, 2012, the three friends (1 male, 2 female) went and got her on campus (a mile away from Frat Row), took her home, and spent the night consoling her. Everything else is on the table, and there’s really no way to establish — unless she starts naming names, and suspects are interviewed — what happened if anything.
Otherwise we end with a situation in which a young woman is upset and calls out for help, but we don’t know why, and then we are presented with a blank slate, onto which we start simply projecting our own biases or preferred narratives. I think it’s better to just leave it alone. And it would have been better if Erdely had left it alone, too. We still don’t have any clear story.
12/6/2024 8:43 pm
Thank you for your reporting and continued interest in this story. I find your writing interesting and worthwhile to read.
12/6/2024 8:45 pm
Anonymous, I don’t think T. Rees Shapiro is pointing an accusing finger toward anyone in the statement by him that I quoted. I think you’ve mapped-on a prejudice about this presumed situation to what he said. I just don’t see evidence for what you think he said.
And, in fact, while he did not go on to say what I said, I think it is both psychologically-minded and reasonable to believe that what this reporter said could lead onward to what I delineated in my post. That’s why I found this particular statement by Shapiro to be so interesting in the first place.
There could be any number of “missing pieces” in this narrative, this story by Jackie, but, if we don’t include the part I wrote about, we’re not being realistic right now, and, we’re not being truthful about what may have happened. In the absence of “all the facts” such speculation is not only necessary, but required.
12/6/2024 8:56 pm
DW Lindeman:
Anonymous, I don’t think T. Rees Shapiro is pointing an accusing finger toward anyone in the statement by him that I quoted.
In the context, the best interpretation of Shapiro’s statement is that he is asserting that he believes Jackie experienced trauma … of a sexual nature … at the hands of someone at UVa. There is no suggestion it occurred elsewhere. Given the history of this scandal, he needs to cleary spell that out. But Shapiro, as evidenced by the story he wrote and this interview, is a credulous and careless reporter who continues, to a significant extent, to accept the overarching narrative in which Jackie’s particular story was framed.
12/6/2024 8:57 pm
Erdely has written two other rape articles as bad or worse.
Her mistake here was she chose the victim of her slander, UVa, poorly.
In the worst article, Billy is worse than Jackie, but combined with a Nifong for a d.a. and even more unsympathetic and untrustworth victims than frat guys who hire strippers, Catholic priests and a teacher, they were convicted.
“Billy” unraveled
One priest conviction overturned
One just died
The other priest and teacher are in the middle of trying to get theirs thrown out as well.
Ralph Cipriano could use support.
12/6/2024 8:58 pm
DAVE — Terrific job with your response to Tom Maguire. You saved me 20 minutes, since I didn’t have to explain the significance of “Andy’s” statement to the Washington Post.
No one should be quibbling about Jackie getting a few details wrong — This charge of gang rape is an absolute LIE — And Andy’s statement proves it.
Steve Sailer — You are absolutely correct about the William Paterson gang rape case. It has NOT and will NOT ever be picked up by the mainstream liberal media because the 4 rapists are black.
In fact, as proof of sorts, it’s the only alleged college gang rape of 2014 that hasn’t been picked up by Gawker and Jezebel.
12/6/2024 9:56 pm
SPmoore8,
I think psychological speculation about a real person at UVa named Jackie, at this point, is entirely appropriate (whether she anticipated this or not, in her cooperation with Elderly), and I’ll stand by my description of two alternatives for where she may be coming from.. What I outlined is nothing more than a 2+2=4 in psychological terms, and hardly rocket science. Or, in other words, mine is an existential description that merely fits in naturally to the discussion of possible states of mind for Jackie to begin with.
Annonymous, In journalism there’s a difference between observation and assertion, and I think that T. Rees Shapiro has followed all the basic rules about these categories here. To observe that someone may have experienced trauma is not to say that you believe that person’s account of how the trauma occurred, and Shapiro never said anything like the latter. I think I filled out the implications of what he was saying, whether what I said was in Shapiro’s mind or not.
12/6/2024 10:00 pm
QUESTION FOR THE BOARD
So let’s assume for a minute that what her friend “Andy” told the WaPo is true — that Jackie was forced to give oral sex to a group of men at some un-named fraternity that night.
How does that happen?
Andy and her roommate said she didn’t have visible bruises that night, etc. So we know she wasn’t punched by the group. And we also know that Jackie hadn’t been drinking (her words), nor was she given a rape drug.
So how does a girl get forced into giving oral sex to multiple men inside a fraternity room.
A gun?
Physical threat?
I just don’t understand.
12/6/2024 10:06 pm
@DWLindeman - Thanks for your reply, but I must demur.
The only real fact we have at our disposal is that “Jackie” was extremely upset on a September night in 2012. There are several explanations:
#1 - She could have been raped
#2 - She could have been “recalling” a prior rape (that appears to be your position)
But a third possibility that you aren’t entertaining is that she simply had a nervous breakdown, and/or was manifesting symptoms of some kind of mental illness. Now, mental disease can be multi-rooted, it can find its source in previous events but it might also be precipitated by chemical imbalances or it might just be a person’s way of getting attention when having a personal or emotional crisis of some kind.
Unfortunately, I have a lot of experience in my family with persons who will slip into agitated states and claim things happening to them that are clearly delusional. And I am talking about for decades and decades.
So we are back to square one. #1 - Something happened, #2 - Nothing happened, the resolution lies in her mind, whether memory or chemical or psychological habit, and really I don’t think we should be going down that road. We just have next to no information.
12/6/2024 10:07 pm
DWLindeman - Thanks for your reply, but I must demur.
The only real fact we have at our disposal is that “Jackie” was extremely upset on a September night in 2012. There are several explanations:
#1 - She could have been raped
#2 - She could have been “recalling” a prior rape (that appears to be your position)
But a third possibility that you aren’t entertaining is that she simply had a nervous breakdown, and/or was manifesting symptoms of some kind of mental illness. Now, mental disease can be multi-rooted, it can find its source in previous events but it might also be precipitated by chemical imbalances or it might just be a person’s way of getting attention when having a personal or emotional crisis of some kind.
Unfortunately, I have a lot of experience in my family with persons who will slip into agitated states and claim things happening to them that are clearly delusional. And I am talking about for decades and decades.
So we are back to square one. #1 - Something happened, #2 - Nothing happened, the resolution lies in her mind, whether memory or chemical or psychological habit, and really I don’t think we should be going down that road. We just have next to no information.
12/6/2024 10:19 pm
From the linked article by Liz Seccuro: “The similarities between my experience and Jackie’s story are astounding because the culture has remained almost identical in the three decades separating our rapes.”
Or maybe because Jackie or Erdely, or both, built on Seccuro’s story.
12/6/2024 10:27 pm
SPmoore8,
Yes, I think we’re beginning to agree. If you read my post here carefully, you’ll see that I’ve qualified my description of Jackie’s possible mental states. I’ve mentioned two broad areas of actuality for these mental states, and by no means all of them. I sought to outline the two most obvious of these states. My
purpose was to draw attention to T. Rees Shapiro’s observation of Jackie’s “trauma.”
I think the larger question that comes up with psychological explanations (and this would exclude the possibility that Jackie was sexually assaulted, and was relating that experience with some accuracy) is the moral responsibility that is associated with mental states.
If a woman, any woman (or man, for that matter) experienced some sexual trauma in the past that brings about accusations from this person in the present that are unrelated to the original event, how responsible may she/he be for what she/he says? That’s an open question. It could depend on how “borderline” this person may be. People who lie about something are usually regarded as venal and destructive, and this is not impossible, for sure. But, if the source of a lie is a pervading pathology in the person who lies, and over which they, at any particular moment, have only limited control, then other considerations will enter in.
12/6/2024 10:43 pm
I’d like to put a word in for UVA assistant dean Nicole Eramo, who has been the subject of a massive witch hunt of People on the Internet trying to get her fired ever since Rolling Stone published their concoction. Rubin Erdely’s tale is particularly vicious toward this poor woman. But now it appears that the most like explanation for Dean Eramo’s patient behavior was that she understood that Jackie’s stories weren’t very true, and that Jackie valued having somebody to tell her stories.
12/6/2024 10:54 pm
DWLindeman, Steve Sailer: If I had to guess, the story sounds lke a confabulated narrative based on archetypes and Liz Securro’s actual experience 30 years ago, brought by any number of personal crises. However, I feel a little uncomfortable trying to read Jackie’s mind, and/or ascribing to her anterior traumas that we can only guess at. I guess what I’m really saying is that diplomatic silence would not only be apt but also kind. But for this, Erdely deserves most of the responsibility. Isn’t there some kind of literary model in which someone exploits someone else’s delusions for material gain?
The bigger issue at this point it seems to me is that we have the equivalent of tons of discussion concerning a 2 year old gang rape that seems to have never even happened, while we have virtually zero coverage of a gang rape that occurred just two weeks ago, which was reported immediately, and was followed with the arrest and arraignment for serious felonies of five individuals.
If some people want to talk about rape and rape culture, then they should be talking about that case, period, over and out. If they refuse to talk about the case right under their nose, then they clearly have some other agenda, e.g., shutting down fraternities, or whatever. This is a big moment for rape culture critics and rape victim advocates to put up or shut up.
12/6/2024 11:01 pm
SPMoore
They are NOT going to talk about the William Paterson case. No way, no how, forgeddaabbooouuttit.
But here’s the link for anyone who missed it.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/02/us-usa-education-sexualassault-idUSKCN0JG27X20141202
12/6/2024 11:02 pm
On December 4, Tara Culp-Pressler noted in “Think Progress:”
“There are plenty of headlines along these lines, too — gang rapes reported at a Johns Hopkins frat party, in a William Paterson University dorm, in a Vanderbilt University dorm.”
So, I read up on all three of these cases. To understand why you’ve heard so much less about these three apparently real cases than about the not very existent case at UVA, take a look at the pictures of the men arrested for perpetrating these three sets of crimes:
http://www.unz.com/isteve/think-progress-defends-rolling-stone-by-noting-3-current-campus-gang-rape-cases/
12/6/2024 11:16 pm
You the man
12/6/2024 11:34 pm
SPmoore8,
I think you are right to suggest that Jackie probably had no idea what she was getting into when she agreed to be interviewed by Elderly of RS. Who doesn’t feel bad for her in some way? Who doesn’t feel bad for the frat brothers Jackie accused, and for “Drew” too, assuming for the moment that nothing ever happened?
I would say, however kind we may want to be to the characters in this story, that commentators on the story have a responsibility to the status of the narrative itself, as well. If suggesting that a person who makes accusations of rape may have inchoate or irrational motives is being unkind, then what sort of rational discussion can our society have about this incident at UVa without dissembling or being obscurantist?
Assuming that someone has a pathology that leads to lies on their part doesn’t mean that that person cannot be cured of this illness. And, if something actually did “happen” to Jackie, then she and UVa can gain something from the public’s ongoing discussion of this issue, now that she and Erdely, in however vexed way, have made their case public.
12/6/2024 11:53 pm
I think the key point of this whole post is that Sabrina Rubin Erdely (sp?) was, as you said, the one being political. When someone else asks for clarification, answering with an agenda-fueled attack is just wildly immature.
I really appreciate what you’ve done with these posts….
Now can you set up a subscribe feature on your blog and get yourself a Twitter account so we don’t all lose you after this blows over?
12/7/2024 12:23 am
Richard, in case you’re not familiar with it, you might check out Caroline Knapp’s writing on the issues of young women, sexuality, consent and alcohol. Hers is one of the most nuanced and honest takes I’ve ever read (it’s from her alcoholism memoir, Drinking: A Love Story). You can find the most relevant section here: http://www.princeton.edu/~womenctr/chapter.html
I realize that drinking doesn’t figure prominently in the story printed in RS, but it is very relevant to the discussion of consent, efforts at prevention, issues involved in some rape investigations, etc.
12/7/2024 12:50 am
There are huge discrepancies between Jackie’s story as reported by RS and what Jackie told to Andy the night of the incident (per WP). Not to mention the inconsistencies in Jackie’s story as told to friends/crisis workers along the way (WP).
If Jackie was assaulted, she has rights and recourse in the criminal justice system and the civil courts.
But her rights do not include smearing innocent people and institutions with seriously damaging false claims, half-truths, embellishment and exaggeration, no matter what she experienced, period.
12/7/2024 1:28 am
Terrific Reporting by Mr. Bradley and thoughtful commentary.
In the wake of the original RS article an open letter circulated to suspend the fraternities signed by the faculty. Apparently hundreds signed. Under pressure this may well have been what prompted Sullivan’s actions. I refused to sign. At the time I believed the RS account (and in retrospect fell victim to the emotional narrative Mr. Bradley warned of of in his earlier post). But I did know that A) rape is rare, including at UVA and B) that I did not know factually that the fraternity members were guilty. I just knew that a reporter at Rolling Stone said it factually happened and my happening to believe her was not sufficient to deny the fraternities their day in court. I was also concerned about the lynch mob mentality that was fomenting (something that the top administration did not diffuse which was the real failure of leadership). I now regret that I was not more vocal in opposing this petition instead of just remaining neutral.
Just a day before the RS retraction bombshell hit, there was another faculty-sponsered letter to ban fraternities from UVA permanently calling them “out of control.” I don’t know how much support it received or what happened to it but imagine it was quietly withdrawn.
It is time to take a breather. UVA is a tremendous institution. It contains smart young people who make mistakes but many of whom will go on to do great things. Of course, it is a large institution. It has, and always will, contain a small number of bad people. These people should be accorded due process and expelled (if not jailed).
I have lost much faith in President Sullivan. Her actions seemed to be 180 degrees out of synch at every turn. It is not her fault that this fabricated story hit UVA, but it did expose a serious lack of leadership. The whole thing looked like a circus to anyone who cared to pay attention (and unfortunately a lot of alumni, faculty, staff and students were paying close attention). She needed to stand as a beacon of leadership that an uncertain community in crisis could look to.
There are really great people at UVA at all levels. It is time to get back to the business of educating young people. Moving forward I hope the administration will review its policies and how sexual assaults are handled. If one thing is clear, these situations could be handled better. If some good comes of this whole debacle, that would be one thing.
This has been an exhausting couple of weeks.
12/7/2024 1:51 am
Well done Sir.
I am so glad that there are still professional journalists like you out there. I was really starting to wonder. Thank you for restoring at least some faith in the Fourth Estate.
As we see China’s economy surpass us in size, as well as other factors around the globe, we need a Fourth Estate we can mostly trust more than ever. It is time, now, for the news media to get back to a more professional mode and discard its recent political bias (in whatever direction). With you and some others, out there, I believe there is hope.
12/7/2024 5:45 am
Please look again at Erdely’s track record- critically, it is one of an agenda-driven serial liar, riding a narrative for personal benefit and destroying the lives of innocents along the way. She is a truly despicable human being. I believe the fact she is Jewish is giving her false cover in the media.
12/7/2024 6:32 am
All very interesting commentary: some of it agenda driven, some not. Some of it thoughtful, some not. I see now why victims of sexual assault do not want to report that assault.
Now I know which side of the debate I must choose, because make no mistake, a choice is being forced here:
Until I am convinced that Jackie was not assaulted at the university, IStandwithJackie
Thank you for your time.
12/7/2024 7:23 am
As I read through the articles and columns that have followed the RS apology, I am astonished at the way the focus has shifted. With rare exception, all articles and opinion pieces address how we must not let the RS’s journalistic inadequacies or the inconsistencies in the victim’s story harm real victims of rape.
I am not saying that there aren’t terrible consequences for real victims of rape from this whole debacle and that there shouldn’t be focus in this area going forward. But, where is the outrage for how the media, the public, the University and the other students at UVA treated the members of Phi Kappa Psi? Where are the apologies for treating all of them like rapists, defacing their home, making death threats, and suspending their fraternity?
Is it really that difficult to say, we are sorry, we made a mistake. We took Liz Securro’s 30 year old rape and an unsubstantiated article, and we assumed these young men were monsters.
Perhaps everyone who spent their time and energy protesting against this fraternity and the Greek system can’t accept that their outrage may have been misdirected at this particular fraternity or group of young men. Or, perhaps is it just too politically incorrect to speak on behalf of falsely accused fraternity members?
In reading what as been written the past few days, there is a strong tenet running through all articles. These men may be innocent but others on campuses throughout the country are not. That’s not good enough. These men are somebody’s sons, brothers and friends. All of them have had to endure the hatred the RS article incited. These are real people who deserve real apologies.
I expected better of journalists, the University and it’s students. Apparently it’s safe to rise up in protest of rape victims but not those unjustly accused.
12/7/2024 8:50 am
[…] https://richardbradley.net/shotsinthedark/2014/12/06/aftermath/ […]
12/7/2024 8:58 am
I am begging people - if you thought you read the WaPo breakout story, re-read it. They have made HUGE changes at the same link with no use of the word UPDATE. (Incredibly misleading, and an example of the dead tree version getting precedence over us online people, since I assume the Saturday paper had the story now online.
But back to the story: This is a the new fourth paragraph; the first sentence is unchanged, but DO press on:
A group of Jackie’s close friends, who are advocates at U-Va. for sex-assault awareness, said they believe that something traumatic happened to her, but they also have come to doubt her account. A student who came to Jackie’s aid the night of the alleged attack said in an interview late Friday night that she did not appear physically injured at the time but was visibly shaken and told him and two other friends that she had been at a fraternity party and had been forced to have oral sex with a group of men. They offered to get her help and she said she just wanted to return to her dorm, said the student, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the subject.
OMG - so an account from a contemporaneous rescuer. Seems to kill the “shattered glass” table with rivulets of blood, and forced oral sex became rape in Jackie’s mind, but “Something dreadful happened somewhere” is clearly back in play.
If a PTSD victim (symptoms of which include memory loss of details of the key event) has transformed forced oral sex to rape, invented the broken glass table and misidentified the fraternity, is she a shameless lying opportunist or a victim of a very serious crime? (Not meant to be a tough call).
12/7/2024 9:23 am
77-
You are human excrement. We know Jackie is a serial liar, but you continue to hold the young men in that fraternity guilty until proven innocent.
12/7/2024 9:29 am
Tom Maguire, PTSD does not turn normally honest and principled people into pathological attention-seeking liars. I myself suffer PTSD from something that happened to me as a child, something which involved my mother’s killing in front of all us children, yet I am not a pathological attention seeking liar who seeks to publicly lie in order to attain a greater number of “victim points” from the US citizenry than any other Vietnamese refugee. I have got on with my life and am a proud Virginia Tech graduate now. In fact I am proud that I have been accepted as an average everyday American nerd! And I do not and never have sought to capitalize on my “victim hood”, nor have I told great public lies about either what my siblings and I suffered or great public lies about whom we blame for it.
Please, I want it noted that the symptoms of PTSD in someone who has actually experienced a shattering traumatic experience do not include “telling lies in order to gain victimhood points or public sympathy for something which one has not suffered.”
12/7/2024 9:32 am
Mr. Bradley,
Glad to see that open minds like yours are still around. Your point 9 is worth repeating. Thanks for what you’ve done in this case.
-A concerned citizen
12/7/2024 9:34 am
In Other words, please refrain from slandering PTSD sufferers as liars who would sell false “tragedies” to the national press in exchange for being petted and cooed over as professional “victims”. Thank you sir.
12/7/2024 9:59 am
Oh, what a tangled web we weave …. Rolling Stone modifies apology and retracts the part about mistrust in Jackie. Now it’s all Rs’s fault — not poor.pitiful Jackie’s. All accusers are equal, but some, it seems, are more equal than others;
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimdalrympleii/rolling-stone-apparently-changes-its-rape-story-apology
12/7/2024 10:01 am
I have much more detailed post incoming , but for now, I wanted to share two things that have been on my mind since I first found Richard Bradley’s courageous skepticism of this dangerous and horrifically politicized sensationalism piece from Rolling Stone.
Who else remembers the college student MCcain supporter during the 2008 election who marked her own face to resemble to upside down “B” (B for Barack Obama), blaming a black male for doing it to her because she had a McCain sticker on her car? After reading Richard’s critical breakdown of the gang rape account, I instantly thought of that episode, linked below:
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/24/todd-he-fondled-me-too/
This story is in much need of repeating in the current torch and pitchfork climate that’s been lit across college campuses, thanks to the criminal rabble rouser Erdely.
The second thing is a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode entitled The Drumhead, where a Salem Witchhunt style investigation tears through the ship that ultimately sees Captain Picard as a Romulan traitor:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Drumhead_%28episode%29
“You know, there are some words I’ve known since I was a schoolboy: ‘With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured…the first thought forbidden…the first freedom denied-chains us all irrevocably.’ Those words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie, as wisdom…and warning. The first time any man’s freedom is trodden on, we’re all damaged. I fear that today-”
“How dare you! You who consort with Romulans, invoke my father’s name to support your traitorous arguments? It is an offense to everything I hold dear! And to hear those words used to subvert the United Federation of Planets! My father was a great man! His name stands for integrity and principle! You DIRTY his name when you speak it! He loved the Federation! But you, Captain, corrupt it! You undermine our very way of life! I will expose you for what you are! I’ve brought down bigger men than you, Picard!”
- Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie, and Admiral Satie, angrily chastising him for it
12/7/2024 10:01 am
How can we donate to this blog?
12/7/2024 10:04 am
Well said, Tran.
12/7/2024 10:09 am
Tom
Answer this:
So let’s assume for a minute that what her friend “Andy” told the WaPo is true — that Jackie was forced to give oral sex to a group of men at some un-named fraternity that night.
How does that happen?
Andy and her roommate said she didn’t have visible bruises that night, etc. So we know she wasn’t punched by the group. And we also know that Jackie hadn’t been drinking (her words), nor was she given a rape drug.
So how does a girl get forced into giving oral sex to multiple men inside a fraternity room.
A gun? Physical threat? Peer pressure?
Honest question — I just can’t comprehend how this is possible.
12/7/2024 10:48 am
I can see that I misspelled Ms. Erdely’s name in some of my remarks here-sorry for that.
12/7/2024 11:15 am
77: I think you mean #IStandWithJackie which is the viral term developing on Twitter with some hot links and interesting commentary.
Tran: I agree, sometimes people experience PTSD causing experiences and never talk about it, let alone try to capitalize on it. God bless.
I’m sure everyone is concerned about sexual violence but this case is not a binary with J or against J. That is just standard “Either you are with us or you are against us” communist rhetoric. The problem is that “Andy’s” testimony is strong corroboration to other evidence that the event in RS never happened. So who are we supposed to be standing with, and why? A college (UVA) and a Greek frat have both been slandered. That’s pretty serious.
My preference is to leave “Jackie” alone and let her get on with life, but if we keep insisting on the occurrence of something for which no evidence exists, you can bet that UVA will be turned upside down to expose the entire story. I’m not sure that will be in the interests of either those concerned with sexual violence or even Jackie herself.
12/7/2024 11:20 am
Great work, sir! If I may commend to you a closer look at Ms. Erdely’s Rolling Stone article of 14 February 2013, “The Rape of Petty Officer Blumer,” I think you will find that particular story also falls apart pretty quickly under a modicum of skepticism.It is still online in RS archives. It reads very much like this article, but transplanted from a college setting into the military.
12/7/2024 11:42 am
Tran - you seem to have made a leap from my wondering “Basically, why are we sure Jackie simply didn’t have the right guy but the wrong frat? “, and noting that she probably has memory impairment due to PTSD to an allegation that, quoting you
“PTSD does not turn normally honest and principled people into pathological attention-seeking liars.”
and
“In Other words, please refrain from slandering PTSD sufferers as liars who would sell false “tragedies” to the national press…”
Huh? I am defending Jackie, I am making the point that there is a difference between misremembering details and “lying”, she didn’t sell her story to the press, she asked Rolling Stone to take her out of the story and they refused… well, I am confused by your comment. Or are you the one who has concluded she is a pathological liar because she misremembers details of the worst night of her life? Interesting.
But I am sorry to hear about your situtation.
12/7/2024 11:48 am
Sabrina No Source - you think a group of men can’t force a woman to perform oral sex?
And I guess I know the answer to this one - what is your position on using Google for, hmm, fifteen seconds?
Try “man convicted forced woman oral sex” and unshelter your life a bit.
12/7/2024 12:09 pm
Freedom of the press is such a sacred right, and journalism done right can result in so much good. It’s a shame to see Ms. Rubin Erdely jeopardize the press’s reputation in pursuit of her political aspirations. Thank you, Mr. Bradley - your blog has done a real service to the field of journalism.
12/7/2024 12:18 pm
Acting as though the difference between “Andy’s” contemporaneous memory of the even with the RS story are “minor discrepancies” is foolish. There is divergence on the most basic details: WHO did it, WHERE it happened, HOW it happened, and even WHAT happened. This leaving out the entire broken glass, bleeding, etc. series of details. I am sorry to say that at this point there’s no reason to believe that anything happened: which doesn’t mean that something did not; it simply means we don’t have any evidence at our disposal.
Meanwhile, Jeanne Kay at freepress is writing things like this: . “And there is the small but real possibility that her story is altogether false. But that possibility is none of our concern for now: the burden of proof, in cases of rape, should lie with the accused, not the victim.”
That is insane and absurd. It’s one thing to continue with sympathy for “Jackie”. Something else to double down on a story that cannot be pinned down at all at this point. And again, as Steve Sailer has noted, there are at least 3 current gang rapes that have been charged that rape victim advocates should be talking about, if indeed they are actually concerned about sexual assaults on campus.
12/7/2024 12:20 pm
Tom Maguire,
Are you and others really going to double down on Jackie’s Story, because she told another (obviously incompatible) version of The Story earlier on to a friend? This somehow makes it credible?
This denialism is pathetic.
Do you really think that the story she told Andy is not fraught with the same kind of absurdities and inconsistencies that the final draft of her story exhibited?
Every lie begins at some place at some time in some form. This is when, where, and how of the birth of Jackie’s lie.
Your desperation to hold onto the lie is just remarkable. Really, if your religious dogma on the point were to be exposed as false, what would happen? Would your entire world collapse in a heap?
12/7/2024 12:21 pm
Ack.
I forgot to include my handle in the 12:20 comment.
12/7/2024 12:22 pm
@ PROF @ UVA - Thank you for the insight into what has been going on behind the scenes. I want Teresa Sullivan’s resignation immediately. Back in the good old days adults ran the place. Now I have the overwhelming feeling UVa is being run by the same “evil clowns” I “jokingly” maintain run so many of our institutions. The inmates are running the asylum. Can we have some adult leadership, please?
Sullivan immediately accepting the “frame” the RS article put around UVa sickened to me as an alum. Her doubling down on it, even after its revelation to be false, confirms she can’t be fired fast enough.
You, and all the faculty, have to realize that even with the RS story falling apart, that, until UVa’s reputation is rescued, no matter what courses you teach, you are really teaching Rape 101 at UVRape. I live very close to Ms. Erdely, and those up here in the hallowed Ivy League north who have no ties to UVa are all too willing to embrace the UVRape narrative even now- oh yeah, that’s the rape school. Why would you go there and get a degree in Rape? This is the narrative UVa must counter. An administration that willingly embraces this narrative, and professors who march around the corner engaging in virtual self-flagellation against the very institution that employs them - (Did any of them see the irony in marching in front of the very UVa hospital Jackie could have walked in minutes to receive treatment if this had really happened as described?) - are only helping to perpetuate the UVRape meme. UVa itself as an institution has been “raped”, and the faculty needs to get a clue. Facts and reason need to carry the day instead of hyperbolic hysteria. I have no use for faculty that are burning the place down with the lynch mobs.
My own daughter - offspring of 2 alum with 3 UVa degrees - aunts and uncles with degrees, and cousins now attending - has now asked why would she want to attend UVRape. She doesn’t want to endure teasing from her friends for wanting to go to the rape school. This is how damaged UVa’s reputation is, regardless of the facts. Without proper leadership, UVa might not recover for the rest of your tenure there as a professor. This is not the legacy I want for my school. Sullivan must go, and the faculty and administration must understand how widespread the damage to UVa’s reputation is. People want to believe the bad - it confirms their long held biases anyway. It’s easy and convenient, and the RS article, no matter how false, combined with the administration’s embrace of it, makes it easy to believe. It’s “false, but true”, you see.
And full disclosure - I was never a greek, and had active disdain for many of the fraternity rats while I was there. This active witch hunt has been so over the top, however, I find myself in the highly ironic position of defending them.
12/7/2024 12:26 pm
Interesting blog Richard, and while I’m not thanking you for doing your diligence I’m complimenting your blog. I’m still a bit baffled to see pieces across the internet vary after this story, such as this one from the managing editor at Cavalier Daily (Julia Horowitz) claiming that if a story resonates internally at some level (i.e. sounds true) then it must be (link below). Would like your thoughts on that.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/12/why-we-believed-jackies-story-113365.html#.VISKBvJ0xMs
12/7/2024 12:32 pm
@ Tom Maguire
12/7/2024 11:48 am
Sabrina No Source – you think a group of men can’t force a woman to have sex?
What’s your theory for how a fraternity forced her to perform oral sex? Do you think they put a gun to her head?
This is about plausibility and probability. And this anonymous “Jackie,” a proven fabulist, no longer deserves the benefit of the doubt.
12/7/2024 12:33 pm
I guess we who are connected to reality should all be thankful that there exist many Tom Maguires in the world who will double down on absurdities when their religious views are threatened.
Nothing can serve as a better sign to all of how far gone into their dogma these types are.
12/7/2024 12:37 pm
I posted this comment on Steve Sailer’s blog, but it seems apropos here as well:
There is a karmic justice to how this idiot Rolling Stone story played out.
It simply wouldn’t have been possible if feminist ideologues didn’t demand that no questions ever be asked of those who make accusations of rape.
This allows the lying sort to push their stories to the hilt, piling absurdity on absurdity until the tale becomes the Victimhood parable of their dreams. No one listening is allowed to notice the inconsistencies because that would be the ultimate evil of Not Believing.
And then some nasty little child like Richard Bradley or Steve Sailer comes around and can’t see the clothes of Victimhood, and says so in public. And there will always be nasty little children!
Really, it’s the feminists who made Jackie’s Story possible. In any other era, her lies would have been caught by any number of people who would have seen the story transmute over time and would have called foul.
The feminists got what they created and what they deserved: a spectacular, embarrassing False Accusation of Rape that will reach across the years. They have spawned their own refutation.
12/7/2024 12:44 pm
SPmoore8,
Thank you for your comment. It is #IStandwithJackie, and there is interesting commentary concerning sexual assault.
I tend to agree with you that everyone might be better served, including Jackie, if we leave this story alone until there is more evidence supporting it or not supporting it, but many contributing to that feed do not-many who have been assaulted. Leaving the story alone will be something that takes care of itself, since it won’t be long before the media is off to the next story. UVa, Phi Psi, and UVa’s alumni will continue to deal with the fall out, however.
Anon,
I do not believe that people should be falsely accused. I am not falsely accusing anyone when I say that I am not fully convinced that Jackie was not assaulted. I am saying just that-I am not convinced. There are too many unanswered questions. As we have all discussed, let’s try to entertain two ideas at once.
I have nothing against fraternities. I spent most of my time at Alderman Library when I was at UVa, but the functions I did attend on Rugby Road were really a lot of fun and the fraternity brothers were complete gentleman. Now, that was my experience. It does not mean that it was everyone else’s experience.
You seem to think that if a woman is a feminist, that she is anti male. Feminists love their husbands, brothers, sons, and male friends as much as women who are not feminists do. I did not have time to be an activist when I was at UVa.; I was too busy studying. But some of the interactions I have had with you, are causing me to consider becoming a card carrying feminist. You’re out of line, anon.
12/7/2024 12:51 pm
@ Tom Maguire
I want to add something to my post above. This is in fact about more than just plausibility and probability. In these circumstances, your holding open the possibility that Jackie was the victim of a sex crime at a fraternity has costs. Specifically, each day you keep alive the possibility, you are injuring the reputations of people who are probably (at this point) innocent.
12/7/2024 12:52 pm
77 - Thank you. I don’t expect 100% agreement in cases like this, but it is good if we can define where we stand in any case.
Unfortunately, this case isn’t going away, which I think is a bad outcome. “Jackie” has been doxxed (outed) — I won’t even try to link, it’s not that hard to find — and aggressive types are all over the story now.
12/7/2024 12:52 pm
Tom Maguire:
I’ve read your blog for years and have a lot of respect for you, but I don’t understand your position here.
Jackie changing her story from forced oral sex to gang rape, and her post-publication confusion as to where the crime happened and which fraternity her date belonged to, seems like more than just PTSD. I don’t claim to be an expert, but it doesn’t ring true. None of it rings true, that’s why the story blew up.
On your blog you said “you picked your rose years ago,” suggesting that in the “was she raped or wasn’t she?” discussion you’ve chosen the “she was” position. That laudable, I suppose, but not an especially helpful compass for discovering the truth.
12/7/2024 1:07 pm
Re: “Do you really think that the story she told Andy is not fraught with the same kind of absurdities and inconsistencies that the final draft of her story exhibited?”
I don’t have much of an opinion as to what story she told Andy, beyond a group of men forced her to have oral sex. Can you pass along the additional details with which you are familiar, and have managed to refute?
Re: “…Tom Maguires in the world who will double down on absurdities when their religious views are threatened”, and similar expressions of my religious fervor. Projection?
I was one of the early critics of this story, pointing out an apparent absence of the three rescuers in the initial RS version. Now they have arrived, with interesting corroboration of sorts. So whose view is threatened now?
FWIW, this is the evidence on which I am basing my current view (or, the Tenets of My Faith, if you prefer):
1. Jackie was reportedly an energetic, successful high school student (unrefuted from Rolling Stone, WaPo; might be false, but she did get into a good school and lifeguards have always struck me as athletic and can-do).
2. Something happened that night, Sept 28 2012. Her suitemate, Soltis, says she went into a downward spiral afterwards; her rescuers say she was “visibly shaken” and alleged forced oral sex with a group of men.
3. She is now being treated for depression, has been diagnosed with PTSD (she claimed to WaPo) and is on medication (her claim). No word on whether she showed the WaPo her prescription bottle. She has gained 25 pounds and spends a lot of time with the rape advocates group.
4. She has reported a sexual assault to the Dean, a year too late.
5. Symptoms of PTSD (Trang notwithstanding) include memory deficiencies around the events of the trauma.In other words, details get lost or confused.
1-3 convince me that something traumatic happened to her. OK, maybe she tripped on a sidewalk crack, bumped her head, and turned into a compulsive liar, but her statements, and (4) indicate she believed (and still believes) that the trauma was a sex assault.
The PTSD makes me inclined to put little weight on “‘wrong” details. I would start with “something happened” and work forward, not “It wasn’t Phi Psi, so its all a lie” and let it rest. But that does make a nice chant…
12/7/2024 1:11 pm
77,
The problem with your approach is that people’s reputations and livelihoods are on the line. We simply must demand more evidence, especially given we are dealing with an already discredited witness, before we go public saying, you know, I think there is a possibility you are a rapist, I just can’t rule it out completely. See my reply to Maguire above.
12/7/2024 1:16 pm
Tom Maguire: I also tend to believe that we now have sufficient corroboration that 3 people picked up “Jackie” a mile away from Frat Row 28 Sep 12. She then told a narrative that has changed continuously since then, and the version in RS is nothing like the one she related 28 Sep 12.
So let’s assume that something happened on that date. How would we test that claim? First, we don’t know which claim; second, and more important, EVERYBODY in this narrative continues to be anonymous, and no one is being deposed, questioned, or interrogated about the matter. And, finally, no one is being forced to answer questions.
In the absence of any such information we are just left with what is basically a rumor, which some people insist on treating as a fact. That’s where we are right now.
12/7/2024 1:18 pm
Maybe she’s a survivor of some trauma that she can’t get straight now. But a guy recently agreed to be eaten by an anaconda for TV, so I can believe “Jackie” spun a completely fantastic story for a magazine which was going to give her a kind of fame and lots of new very sympathetic friends in the rape therapeutic community.
In other words, until more evidence about what if anything happened to her on the night when what she said happened almost certainly did not happen, where and when she said it did, I wouldn’t plant my flag on any particular version of events. We simply don’t know how reliable ANYTHING she’s said is, or how messed up she is now or was then; all the evidence we’ve heard to date is compromised, and the possibility that she’s fine and just wanted attention is no less plausible than anything else.
We’re speculating about the inside of someone’s head we don’t know.
12/7/2024 1:19 pm
[…] BRADLEY LISTS people who should apologize for calling critics of the UVA rape story […]
12/7/2024 1:21 pm
Richard, you are being overly kind to Anna Merlan. She *really* needs to look inward a little more. Given the attention, it’s pretty weak to bury an apology 5 paragraphs into her next story. From the start, she erroneously framed the debate as you (and Robby Soave) vs her, as opposed to truth vs fiction. What I mean is, let’s say new proof emerged that Jackie did get forcibly raped, but not at Phi Kappa Psi and not exactly as reported. You still would have correctly shown that the RS article contained material errors and was not sufficiently fact-checked AND Ms. Merlan would have been correct in her belief that a rape occurred. Therefore, do you think Ms. Merlan would have apologized? My guess is no — she’d repeat her claims that you’re a “rape apologist” and an “idiot,” and use the new information as evidence. The point is, she simply had no right to call you an idiot in the first place, even if SRE’s article turned out to be 100% accurate. You raised legitimate questions — a real journalist would encourage that, not insult you and attempt to shut you down.
You may disagree with Kat Stoeffel, but at least her article tried to advance a point. Merlan’s original post, and her subsequent comment thread, served no purpose other than to insult you and Soave and to show that she was smarter than you. Cases in point: “giant ball of shit”, “Two guys who have no idea what they’re talking about”, “I don’t think you’ve ever “reported” a goddamn thing in your life,” “I have a master’s degree in journalism from Columbia,” “Richard Bradley is profoundly baffled by Kinja.” Friday, she posted on Twitter “I understand the temptation to gloat, guys, and I’ll let you, even though it’s in bad taste.” Anna, your original article was one long gloat — re-read what you wrote!!! You even prepared the eventual correction you said they would need!!! Talk about bad taste!
She needs to dissect (in print, preferably) why she was so willing to believe every element of a rather unbelievable tale at face value; why none of the reasoned doubt put forth by you and Soave resonated within her brain (and why she classified your logical arguments as “vague suspicions”); why she could not process basic facts like Erdely’s admission on the Slate podcast that she didn’t make much attempt to contact the alleged attackers; why she felt it was so crucial to defend Erdely (someone she doesn’t know, presumably) — might Merlan harbor an inherent bias and belief in “The Narrative”? ; and finally, why she felt publicly calling any respected journalist an “idiot” was appropriate, no matter the eventual outcome. My guess is that she (and her sycophants in the comment thread) won’t do any of this, even though a little reflection might eventually make her a better writer (I hesitate to say “reporter” or “journalist” since Jezebel’s raison d’etre is just to comment on other stories, not to make news). It’s a shame, but even after a public humiliation, I doubt Anna Merlan has learned a single thing.
12/7/2024 1:37 pm
Dear Tim Maguire:
My name is Tran, not “Trang”.
Thank you.
12/7/2024 1:38 pm
“Your assignment now Sir, should you wish to accept it ….” [insert Mission Impossible music here.]
… is to go back thru Sabrina Rubin Erdely previous works to see if we have a serial Jayson Blair on our hands. Writers don’t just decide ‘Hey today I am going to write a piece of trash’, its a progression they go thru till it ends like it has.
12/7/2024 1:54 pm
JohnMc,
Or, it may be that Ms. Erdely found Jackie such a compelling storyteller, that she (SRE) had “found” a story that: a) SRE totally wanted to believe, and b) Fit right into SRE’s prearranged agenda, and c) SRE knew exactly how to write and so dramatize.
This becomes an object lesson when the RS piece is compared to the subsequent circumspect reportage of WaPo on the UVa story.
12/7/2024 1:54 pm
From Mike G:
” I wouldn’t plant my flag on any particular version of events. We simply don’t know how reliable ANYTHING she’s said is, or how messed up she is now or was then”
Which is my position exactly. Yet I seem to see a lot of flags on the “Liar Liar” side of the field.
Tran - Sorry. If you are ever lucky enough to be old enough to have my eyesight, maybe you’ll have better luck with your typing.
And “Real Feminist:”
On your blog you said “you picked your rose years ago,” suggesting that in the “was she raped or wasn’t she?” discussion…
Suggesting that, perhaps, but meaning that in the Wars of the Roses between Left and Right, I have spent far too many years on the right to switch sides now.
In defense of my cryptic comment, we haven’t been debating this particular Stone story for years. And really long time readers remember me pounding the keyboard in favor of Kobe Bryant in his rape drama, so waddya know?
12/7/2024 2:11 pm
I’m grateful for Mr. Bradley’s coverage of this issue.
I really enjoyed Student’s comment. I was President of a Phi Psi house in my undergraduate years. I felt the same way when I first heard the story. My first reaction was that it was sickening. However, I kept my mouth shut about it, only briefly commenting to my mother (who is still involved with her sorority) about the importance of women going to the police immediately after such events. Nevertheless, I had a little voice in my head telling me that it just seemed too extreme.
The one thing that stuck out to me, something not mentioned by other commenters, was the importance of reputation in Greek life. It struck me that the writer didn’t really even understand how the Greek system operates. Fraternities are basically just big houses. With students graduating every year, it is critically important to recruit new people to fill the spots of those who move out. Being able to recruit members is often tied to how good the social scene is at the Fraternity. If you throw good parties with lots of cute girls attending, then you have a much easier time recruiting new members. If the Fraternity does things that gives it a bad reputation with girls, then gradually their parties will get worse, with fewer cute girls showing up. This makes it harder to recruit new members. In some cases, this can lead to severe financial issues for the Fraternity.
So to me, the part about the story that seemed most unbelievable was that the guys would do something that so clearly and easily would destroy the reputation of the house. While Fraternity guys often do a lot of stupid things, they never do things so completely illogical. In the RS story, the girl tells her friends almost immediately (and there’s no way they would have responded the way they did). If it really happened, the story would have spread across all the girls in the school and they would be much less likely to go to the house. Reputation effects are a natural limit to Fraternity behavior. If you don’t understand that, then you don’t understand the Greek system.
On a side note, I would find it amusing if Virginia Alpha throws a “we didn’t gang rape anybody” rager while on probation just to screw with the university.
12/7/2024 2:14 pm
1) Kudos to Mr. Bradley who has given the nation a lesson in how journalism should be done. Bravo!
2) As I see it, the argument that “something bad happened to Jackie” is based not on what she’s saying now, but on what she said contemporaneously to her friends the night in question as recalled by those friends. Those types of contemporaneous statements are generally viewed as more trustworthy than statements made later, when memories have faded and parties have figured out what their litigation postures are. That doesn’t necessarily mean that something bad actually happened or that anyone connected with UVA did something, just that there’s some grounds for further inquiry. It’s entirely possible, maybe even likely in light of her subsequent fabrications, that she made up or imagined whatever she said happened.
12/7/2024 2:15 pm
Re the William Paterson University and other campus rapes - I missed the Think Progress piece but (much) earlier that day I had published on the gang assaults at William Paterson and Ramapo College.
http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2014/12/ongoing-rape-crisis-or-all-the-news-thats-fit-to-ignore.html
Based on the pictures and names the group was a bit more PC - I see two white guys and a white girl(!), who were, as I read it, encouraging and photographing the incident.
But as Steve S said, race plus non-elite schools made these non-stories.
12/7/2024 2:21 pm
Shattered Glass = Kristallnacht
Hat tip Syon at Sailer’s
12/7/2024 2:52 pm
Tom Maguire:
Sorry if I mischaracterized your position. It seemed to me - and maybe I’m just not understanding - that you were saying, “hold the presses, it looks like something bad really DID happen to Jackie” just because people Jackie talked to after the fact are now saying that’s what she said happened. I directed my comment at you because I generally agree with you and I was surprised by what I understood to be your take.
BTW, I chuckled every time I read the “drop the effing balloons” sub-title that you used to have on your blog. Classic.
12/7/2024 3:00 pm
1) If the rape story is internally consistent and the externally verifiable facts seem to check out, then that indicates that it is credible.
2) If the rape story is internally contradictory, and refuted by investigation, that’s just a sign of the trauma that rape victims experience, as many celebrated psychologists tell us - thus the story is still credible.
3) Therefor, rape stories must be believed.
However, there’s a whole bunch of documented cases of women lying about rape (out of malice, to protect their reputations, because they’re idiots why just learned about the “patriarchy,” etc.) or who falsely believe they were raped because they’re psychologically disturbed.
So go figure.
12/7/2024 3:25 pm
Real Feminist: ““hold the presses, it looks like something bad really DID happen to Jackie”
Well, that is my position, but if Robby Soave wants to stick to his guns with his claim that
“But it’s clear that her story, as told to Erdely, is false. Not slightly false, or partly false, but false.”,
Then I suppose the defense would be that… well, I would still be inclined to take Robby’s side against the likely Jezebel snark, but the verbiage would be tricky; my guess is he backs that down a bit.
And “effing balloons” - OMG, I’ve never stopped loving that. Thanks.
Brian: “However, there’s a whole bunch of documented cases of women lying about rape ”
And there is a whole bunch of documented stories of traumatized rape victims having unreliable memory of the details but a thematically accurate claim they were raped.
Which leaves us where?
12/7/2024 3:33 pm
Teresa Sullivan and anyone else involved in the decision to collectively punish the Greek system based upon a lie must go. Her most recent press release would do Orwell proud. Doublespeak. Protect the Narrative. Ignore the lie. The story is Truth.
Rape is a horrific crime and needs to be punished to the full extent of the law. Rape victims need all the support and help society can give. False allegations of rape is also destructive and should be punished severely.
The University hates the power and influence of the Greek system. Sullivan wishes to destroy the fraternities in particular.
In 1970 the first women were allowed in the College. Since then the numbers have exploded to where women now rapidly approaching 60% of the student body. At what level does this become a “problem”? 60% women? 70% women? 80%? STEM is still largely male - which is a problem that needs to be remedied… but other schools like Education being 90% female is just fine and nothing to worry about.
Teresa Sullivan and her cadre of men haters needs to go.
12/7/2024 3:44 pm
NEW DETAILS — WASH PO
When you lie this much, no one should believe anything you say. Jackie deserves to be brought up on honor charges and kicked out of UVa.
Here’s the WaPo excerpt:
“It was not anything like what happened that night,” said the friend, who is identified in the story as “Cindy” and spoke anonymously because of the sensitivity of the subject. “That night was not very significant. I remember it, but it was not very dramatic.”
She said the students met Jackie near the U-Va. dorms, more than a mile from the campus fraternities.
“Cindy” said that Jackie appeared distraught that night but was not hurt physically and was not bleeding. The student said Jackie made no claims of a gang rape and did not identify the fraternity where she said she had partied. “Cindy” said Jackie told one of the friends there that a group of men had forced her to perform oral sex.
The student said there was never any discussion among Jackie and the group involving how their reputations or social status might be affected by seeking help.
The student said that when she read the Rolling Stone account, she felt betrayed. “It’s completely false,” she said, noting that she was not contacted or interviewed by a Rolling Stone reporter.
12/7/2024 4:09 pm
This is the seconf time Rubin Erdely’s has been caught peddling a fake rape story.
The first was an alter boy supposedly raped by multiple priests.
http://www.bigtrial.net/2014/12/before-rolling-stone-was-conned-by.html
12/7/2024 4:28 pm
When you lie this much, no one should believe anything you say. Jackie deserves to be brought up on honor charges and kicked out of UVa.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Agree, and sued personally. The president needs to be fired for not defending all of its students. In any event, friends should withhold their financial support. Note well the petitions circulated by radical faculty. Potential students, most especially males, beware of UVA.
12/7/2024 4:36 pm
“Cindy” said Jackie told one of the friends there that a group of men had forced her to perform oral sex.
“That night was not very significant. I remember it, but it was not very dramatic,” Cindy said.
Say what? Your friend says that she was forced to perform oral sex on a group of men and the occasion is “not very significant”? Did the friends not even believe her then?
There’s a whole lot about this story that doesn’t check out and the Washington Post is doing a very poor job reporting it.
12/7/2024 4:55 pm
There was a very dubious side-story in the original RS reporting: “Jackie” said a man had smashed a beer bottle on her face while calling her ugly slurs. She says this happened in public. Has anyone looked into that? Absolutely everyone who’s ever been to Charlottesville, even at 3 AM, finds that extremely hard to believe. Wouldn’t there be a police report? A hospital report? Witnesses? Video footage?
It looks like just another lie in a big ol’ pack of lies.
12/7/2024 4:55 pm
Any chance the mob that vandalized the fraternity house will be prosecuted? Or kicked out of school?
12/7/2024 4:59 pm
As someone who works closely with soldiers suffering PTSD, I can tell you that hiding behind a PTSD diagnosis to explain a constantly shifting story is shameful. That is NOT a symptom of PTSD. Maybe other mental illness, but not PTSD.
12/7/2024 5:03 pm
There was a very dubious side-story in the original RS reporting: “Jackie” said a man had smashed a beer bottle on her face while calling her ugly slurs. She says this happened in public. Has anyone looked into that? Absolutely everyone who’s ever been to Charlottesville, even at 3 AM, finds that extremely hard to believe. Wouldn’t there be a police report? A hospital report? Witnesses? Video footage?
YES — I doubted that detail from the beginning. Why? The force required to break a beer bottle on the jaw, cheek or head is substantial. Jackie would have suffered facial fractures and bleeding, not a small bruise.
12/7/2024 5:09 pm
Thank you, PTSD Reality. (see my comments further up the page)
12/7/2024 5:11 pm
I’d recommend once again Tom Wolfe’s “I Am Charlotte Simmons,” which includes a long section on how Charlotte, a studious girl from a modest background attending a high pressure university, loses her virginity to a handsome but callous fraternity boy and is plunged into a long depression.
There are some differences — Charlotte is a literal minded character, while Jackie seems more inclined to fantasy and histrionics — but Wolfe’s book will teach you a lot about the psychology of 18 year old girls dealing with sex.
12/7/2024 5:15 pm
Like I said in one of the first five comments on Bradley’s first post on the subject back in November, Jackie’s story would be less implausible if Sabrina Rubin Erdely didn’t insist Jackie was sober — pouring drinks on the frat floor — when whatever happened happened.
For example, the friend’s statement that Jackie’s initial claim of being “forced” to provide oral sex to five men might be more plausible if, say, they had plied her with drink until she thought that seemed like a good idea.
12/7/2024 5:19 pm
I was in a fraternity for four years 20+ years ago. Even then we ourselves educated about sexual harassment and date rape. When we rushed students we tried to evaluate if they would be a problem. I personally campaigned to kick out an associate (we did not have pledges) because he followed a pretty girl around until she complained. I was deemed harsh- it was voted down- but he dropped out for academic reasons anyway.
Most fraternities have these discussions and battles- the idea that a gang rape would not only occur, but be planned- is horrific and unlikely in the extreme.
The preppy white kid gang rape seems to have a narrative appeal to certain groups. Only a few years ago was the Duke Lacrosse rape- another gang rape- thoroughly debunked. The idea that another gang rape story would be published with very little proof shows that something is wrong- and its not white college males.
12/7/2024 5:25 pm
@ Steve Sailer
For example, the friend’s statement that Jackie’s initial claim of being “forced” to provide oral sex to five men might be more plausible if, say, they had plied her with drink until she thought that seemed like a good idea.
Well at that point we aren’t in Sabrina Rubin Ederly’s narrative anyway but a different one. Did the Washington Post ask any of the friends whether Jackie was sober on whatever night it was that they met her? Terrible reporting job by the Post.
12/7/2024 5:29 pm
I think its rather chickenshit of Richard Bradley not to acknowledge that Steve Sailer was the one who was the catalyst for the story breaking out.
12/7/2024 5:35 pm
Tom Maguire,
You are a funny man ….laughing….
Irony of ironies, “Cindy”, the friend who said that Jackie said that she (Jackie) was forced to perform oral sex on a group of men and that that night was not very significant is starting to sound like the “Cindy” that Erdely described.
12/7/2024 6:01 pm
UVa President Teresa Sullivan abandoned her male students to the worst sort of calumny and lies.
Teresa Sullivan must resign or be removed.
12/7/2024 6:21 pm
I have no idea if it is true, but it has begun to float around Twitter that Jackie has made PREVIOUS false accusations of rape in her past.
The journalist who is promoting this information has promised to reveal it tonight at midnight if Jackie does not make a statement regarding her lies to Rolling Stone.
It could get interesting tonight, very late.
12/7/2024 6:30 pm
Turbineguy, I came upon Mr Bradley’s Nov 24th link via Glenn Reynolds (Instapundit). I also saw mention of it in the Wall Street Journal. I had never even heard of “Steve Sailer” until I saw his many comments here, and those of his apparent acolytes.
Many people have heard of The Instapundit blog. Many people have heard of the Wall Street Jounal. Many people do read their writings and follow their links. How do you come to call our kind host here “chickenshit” for not acknowledging some blogger nobody I know has even heard about?
I think you are being quite rude.
12/7/2024 6:35 pm
@ Turbineguy
I think its rather chickenshit of Richard Bradley not to acknowledge that Steve Sailer was the one who was the catalyst for the story breaking out.
Stand down, soldier. There is no ironclad evidence that Sailer was the catalyst. And our host here has not claimed the credit for himself, nor does he have an obligation to award credit.
12/7/2024 6:53 pm
General point: This is a Rape-of-truth Culture we live in.
Truth and facts are the first casualty of the agenda-driven narrative and War on (insert your favorite social-justice’y ’cause’ here). Is it a coincidence that reporting on Ferguson got many facts wrong (ie the myth of ‘hands up dont shoot’), and in a way that precisely inflamed the situation, as happened with the RS story?
The common theme seems to be too-good-to-be-true stories ‘proving the Problem We All Believe Exists’. And we cannot critique the stories because, gasp, you’ll be a Denialist.
We need to stop pretending we have evolved beyond the Salem witch trials. Plus ca change…
12/7/2024 7:10 pm
No Source,
This is not a game. If this “journalist” reveals Jackie’s real name, he can put her in real danger. Some of you are out for blood, so you can drop this thin veneer that it is journalistic integrity you are seeking.
Shame on you. Truly.
12/7/2024 7:27 pm
I have not revealed her name, nor do I support it. It would be simple enough to publish details of her past false allegations of rape without revealing her name.
Your anger is misguided.
12/7/2024 7:28 pm
SRE continues to be MIA.
Looking more and more like real journalistic malfeasance here…from someone who has a pattern of writing similar stories, all of which should come under significant scrutiny now.
I’ll admit it- I have nothing but contempt for people like SRE- she seemed to have no problem talking about this when a large swathe of her peers and others were showering her with adulation when the piece was published. Her “big black car” tweet spoke a lot to a real lack of character- it was a not-so-subtle “hey- look at me- I’m a big deal” moment. Her silence is despicable and cowardly.
That she has gone completely and totally silent after being so arrogantly dismissive when initial questions began to be raised just looks so incredibly bad here…even if RS is advising her to do so.
12/7/2024 7:39 pm
You are right about Sabrina. I have looked at all her Tweets over the past few weeks. To call her arrogant is an understatement.
The best part is when she demanded that someone call her a ‘journalist.’ That Tweet is still on her timeline, if you are interested in a laugh. The humor is found in the dozens of sarcastic responses to that Tweet now that her story has imploded.
It’s a riot.
12/7/2024 7:40 pm
77, “some of us,” as you say, sounds like “you people.” Your bias is outrageous and insulting. Where is your empathy for the people slandered in this hit piece, their reputations and names now fully trashed?
12/7/2024 7:43 pm
Sabrina’s biggest failure was her decision NOT to interview Jackie’s friends who met her at 3 am the night in question.
Eric Wemple just published a scathing rebuke about an hour ago at the Washington Post.
Here is a LONG excerpt:
—
Right smack in the middle of the Rolling Story are three people who could help. Here, we’ll paste in the excerpt from “A Rape on Campus” that introduces them:
Disoriented, Jackie burst out a side door, realized she was lost, and dialed a friend, screaming, “Something bad happened. I need you to come and find me!” Minutes later, her three best friends on campus – two boys and a girl (whose names are changed) – arrived to find Jackie on a nearby street corner, shaking. “What did they do to you? What did they make you do?” Jackie recalls her friend Randall demanding. Jackie shook her head and began to cry. The group looked at one another in a panic. They all knew about Jackie’s date; the Phi Kappa Psi house loomed behind them. “We have to get her to the hospital,” Randall said.
Their other two friends, however, weren’t convinced. “Is that such a good idea?” she recalls Cindy asking. “Her reputation will be shot for the next four years.” Andy seconded the opinion, adding that since he and Randall both planned to rush fraternities, they ought to think this through. The three friends launched into a heated discussion about the social price of reporting Jackie’s rape, while Jackie stood beside them, mute in her bloody dress, wishing only to go back to her dorm room and fall into a deep, forgetful sleep. Detached, Jackie listened as Cindy prevailed over the group: “She’s gonna be the girl who cried ‘rape,’ and we’ll never be allowed into any frat party again.”
Did Rolling Stone ever interview those people or other key folks? Read the lines above, and you’ll hear their voices — filtered through Jackie. “Randall,” notes Erdely in the story, turned down an interview request on account of his “loyalty to his own frat” — yet another little detail in “A Rape on Campus” that stinks of implausibility.
On the topic of the reachability of these friends, Rolling Stone commits perhaps the most self-damaging parenthetical in the history of journalistic self-assessment. It comes from the magazine’s “note to readers”: “A friend of Jackie’s (who we were told would not speak to Rolling Stone) told the Washington Post that he found Jackie that night a mile from the school’s fraternities.” Bold text added to highlight an un-get-pastable problem: Rolling Stone is in possession of a gang-rape allegation that includes a broken glass table, seven assailants and penetration with a bottle. Not only does it not have an official complaint, it has agreed not to contact the accused AND it has apparently accepted the affirmation of some interested party that a pivotal source isn’t really up for an interview.
Where is that an acceptable excuse?
The Erik Wemple Blog has asked Rolling Stone whether the parenthetical means that the magazine didn’t even try to find this person and whether it’s standard practice to let others speak for a source’s willingness to cooperate. (It’s possible that it refers only to Rolling Stone’s efforts to reach this person after “A Rape on Campus” was published). Also: Who was it that told the magazine that the friend wouldn’t talk?
Rolling Stone spokeswoman Melissa Bruno responds, “We decline to comment further at this time.”
In a follow-up to its Friday piece, The Post has some insight on Rolling Stone’s approach to these friends. Or lack thereof. The person identified in the Rolling Stone story as “Cindy” told the newspaper that Erdely’s version of events was “completely false.” That’s less condemnatory of Rolling Stone than “Cindy’s” contention that the magazine neither contacted nor interviewed her. Furthermore, “Andy” told The Post that he “never spoke to a Rolling Stone reporter,” as reported on Friday.
Thus far, assessments of the damage done by Erdely’s piece have focused on how it distracts from the cause of stomping out sexual assault at the University of Virginia and on other campuses. And indeed it does. But this widely distributed magazine also managed to slander an entire group of people via its depiction of “Cindy,” “Andy” and “Randall.” The way Erdely tells it, the trio arrives to assist Jackie within minutes of her calling in the wee hours of the morning, yet once they get there, they’re somehow consumed with superficialities. The blast from Erdely is so searing as to merit repetition:
The three friends launched into a heated discussion about the social price of reporting Jackie’s rape, while Jackie stood beside them, mute in her bloody dress, wishing only to go back to her dorm room and fall into a deep, forgetful sleep. Detached, Jackie listened as Cindy prevailed over the group: “She’s gonna be the girl who cried ‘rape,’ and we’ll never be allowed into any frat party again.”
“Cindy” told The Post that “there was never any discussion among Jackie and the group involving how their reputations or social status might be affected by seeking help.” Rolling Stone offered its apology to “anyone who was affected by the story,” and that means every student, alumna and alumnus.
12/7/2024 7:45 pm
“UVa President Teresa Sullivan abandoned her male students to the worst sort of calumny and lies. ”
She didn’t know they were calumny and lies up front. Now that the RS story has been shattered like a glass table, she needs to retract her actions and apologize to the frats for the cloud cast over them.
““hold the presses, it looks like something bad really DID happen to Jackie”
Jackie told story X to a group of friends then, story Y to a dean a year later, and story Z to a RS reporter. The truth-needle is somewhere in the haystack, but all you can conclude is she is an unreliable witness and source.
12/7/2024 7:46 pm
77 - Jackie was actually outed yesterday, for anyone who really cared to research. WaPo provided the main clue, namely, her name. I have found sites that had all of her personal preferences up in a matter of hours and anyone could have done so.
The guy we have agreed not to mention is threatening to reveal false rape allegations from the woman we have agreed not to mention. It won’t really matter, since it doesn’t involve this particular incident.
This is why I would have preferred all of this to stop, but the #IStandWithJackie thread shows that there are still many furious defenders pushing this claim hard. This must necessarily lead to more investigation, more information, and so on. Frankly, I think the DA in the County where UVA is located should subpoena everyone involved in this incident at this point. Neither Bradley nor any other conservative create this firestorm, they did not shut down all the UVA frats, etc. and if the claim is now seen as dubious, and if the promoters of it refuse to back down, then somehow the fire has to be put out. I’m sorry for Jackie, a lot less sorry for Erdely who insisted on going with the story over Jackie’s objections, but what else can one do?
12/7/2024 7:48 pm
No Source,
Thanks for clarifying. My apologies.
12/7/2024 7:49 pm
@ Sabrina No Source
Sabrina’s biggest failure was her decision NOT to interview Jackie’s friends who met her at 3 am the night in question.
Nope. Let’s not kid ourselves. The biggest failure was not contacting the accused. Jackie’s friends have a conflict of interest and in any event were not witnesses to the most salient alleged events. Not to mention the basic fairness of getting the other side of the story before publishing life altering allegations.
12/7/2024 8:07 pm
@Sabrina No Source
Wow…I had not even clicked on that convo before.
I hope Temple University and Penn U. terminate their relationship with her. She has no business “teaching” journalism students or working in the business ever again.
12/7/2024 8:10 pm
SPMoore8,
Yes. Thank you. I see.
I also agree.
What an incredible mess. Totally avoidable, too. People on both sides do need to stand down before someone gets hurt.
I appreciate the commentary on this site. I wasn’t referring to Bradley, to you, or to the majority of other truly thoughtful people I have encountered here.
There are a few trolls, but it is the Internet, so it goes with the territory.
Thanks for your patience, insight, and input.
12/7/2024 8:15 pm
“Nope. Let’s not kid ourselves. The biggest failure was not contacting the accused.”
Even worse than that, if you read T. Rees Shapiro’s first story he writes something that no one is talking about.
He wrote that Jackie only agreed to allowing Sabrina to publish the rape account IF she, Jackie, could do all the fact checking of her part of the story.
THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MINUTE — SABRINA AGREED TO LET JACKIE FACT CHECK HER OWN LIES.
That is why Sabrina NEVER spoke with Andy or Cindy, the most important witnesses in the entire story. Jackie would NOT let Sabrina talk to them.
Why? Because if Sabrina talked to them, then Jackie’s ENTIRE story would have fallen apart.
I have NEVER, EVER, EVER heard of a journalist making a deal where she let the accuser fact check her own story.
It just keeps getting weirder and weirder, the more you study this story.
12/7/2024 8:19 pm
@ Sabrina no source
THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MINUTE — SABRINA AGREED TO LET JACKIE FACT CHECK HER OWN LIES.
Is that a no no in journalism? Why would it be? I ask because I do not know.
12/7/2024 8:25 pm
I was involved in the TNR “Baghdad Diarist” flap in 2007- similar lessons that went unlearned then to now:
1. Activist editors and staff who wanted to affect change during the deeply unpopular Iraq War in late 2006/early 2007 before the surge took hold.
2. A single source whose accounts were taken at face value with zero attempt to verify them with those who would know (ie- us- as in the author’s unit- the ones he slimed with fabricated embellishments).
3. Finally- and most important- an established narrative that the folks at TNR believed in- soldiers are thugs and criminals who descended into depravity as a result of war. The classic they’re victims or criminals meme.
None of the rather unbelievable acts depicted registered with the editors and fact-checkers (one of whom was the diarist’s wife- hmmm- conflict of interest much?) because frankly- it fit with what they had learned from watching films like Platoon, Full Metal Jacket, Casualties of War, etc. and seemed perfectly plausible to them.
12/7/2024 8:27 pm
Sorry- #2 should read: “with fabrications *and* embellishments.
12/7/2024 8:27 pm
“Not to overstate the obvious, but once you stipulate sexual freedom in a society, it becomes very difficult to police sexual activity, including sexual assault.”
“What is your definition of sexual assault?”
To back up the above point, sexual assault is non-consensual sexual activity, of course. In a hookup culture where consensual sexual activity can involve sex with someone you just met and where people have their judgment impaired by booze and drugs, it creates an environment ripe for misunderstanding, predation and morning-after-hangover regrets.
12/7/2024 8:28 pm
Here’s the excerpt from T. Rees Shapiro’s WASH PO story I was referring to :
—
Overwhelmed by sitting through interviews with the writer, Jackie said she asked Erdely to be taken out of the article. She said Erdely refused, and Jackie was told that the article would go forward regardless.
Jackie said she finally relented and agreed to participate on the condition that she be able to fact-check her parts in the story, which she said Erdely agreed to.
—
There it is people. That’s how this happened. Sabrina LET JACKIE FACT CHECK ALL THE DETAILS — And Sabrina took Jackie’s word for it.
12/7/2024 8:29 pm
77 - Thank you, too. I prefer an environment where people can disagree, if necessary, with some civility.
But let me clarify one point. The RS article describes a hideous felony. There is no statute of limitations for rape (see Securro). As far as I know, non-pursuit of a felony is not an option, regardless of how the victim feels about it. Publishing this article, in effect, amounted to a claim that a serious felony had taken place in the County where UVA is located.
Now, if the story was determined as fabricated immediately that would be one thing. But insofar as it has not been completely discredited, I cannot see how law enforcement does not have a clear responsibility to act here, and that means collecting the information that neither Erdely nor UVA nor RS seems to have bothered to collect.
12/7/2024 8:52 pm
I am the mother of several college aged and near college aged sons. I am very concerned about the current assault on the characters of the alleged rapists in Jackie’s fable. I have discussed issues of sexual responsibilities with my sons, emphasizing the importance of respecting all women. I believe my sons have listened and understand that they are responsible for their actions when dating young women. I am very alarmed with the narrative that young males are assumed to be sexual predators and all young women are in constant danger in this so called “culture of rape”. The conversation with my sons have shifted to protecting themselves from false accusations and avoiding situations where issues of sexual assault could happen. It is very disturbing that these “enlightened” feminists have declared war on men. Being falsely accused of rape will destroy a young man’s future. Using a fabricated story to further a political agenda is dangerous and despicable.
12/7/2024 8:59 pm
@ Anonymous
and that means collecting the information that neither Erdely nor UVA nor RS seems to have bothered to collect.
It seems that UVa went as far as it could. It probably concluded the claims were dubious and was unable to do more if Jackie didn’t file a complaint with the school or law enforcement.
12/7/2024 9:10 pm
Anon: Okay, I am not disputing the facts as you relate them. What I am disputing is this idea that reporting a rape is some kind of choice, especially if it is being broadcast in the media.
If a person doesn’t want to report a sexual assault, that’s one thing, but if a national publication publishes what amounts to a claim that a serious felony took place two years ago, then it seems to me that it is up the University as well as the local police, DA, etc. to pursue it.
I mean, I know that sometimes felonies are not prosecuted at the request of the victim. But I don’t think that is typical. Crimes are prosecuted not to satisfy any one individual, but to satisfy and protect everyone in society. If this claim is true, or even remotely true, a group of serious sexual psychopaths are on the loose, and the victim (in this case) is obliged as a civic duty to name names, and everyone else involved should be obliged to cooperate in the interests of justice.
BTW, I have just learned that the Charlottesville police are on the case. That should provide some kind of closure, but, unfortunately, given the huge publicity this claim has received, and continues to receive, now that doubts have been cast on it, I doubt that will be sufficient.
12/7/2024 9:26 pm
From the conservative corners of the internet where I muck about there are two distinct issues at play I think.
The first is a pure media criticism angle, and in that regard this actually isn’t that much different from usual—writers like Sean Davis and Mollie Hemingway are constantly taking mainstream media sources to task for what they perceive to be unethical or biased coverage. There’s a deep-seated persecution complex on the right with regard to the institutional biases of national sources associated with “elite” opinion such as NYT and WaPo (a complex that’s grown into its own self-sustaining monster, to be sure, but nevertheless founded on at least a grain of truth—as most persecution complexes tend to be), so a lot of conservatives and conservative outlets love a good journalism scandal. This round of criticism has gotten a lot more widespread traction than the ordinary media critique because (1) the original story was such a sensation, and (2) a mainstream publication (WaPo) got involved in the take-down, bringing more credence and wider dissemination, but I don’t know I would say it’s taken off “on the right” much more than, say, Gruber.
The second issue is the more specific angle of how this all fits into the ongoing public discourse about sexual assault and gender relations. On that score, of course ingrained MRA-types are going to seize on whatever evidence they can to show that rape isn’t a serious problem and everyone just needs to pipe down. That’s dumb and I don’t really interact with any of those types (people like Chuck Johnson claiming to out “Jackie’s” real information), but even that is in some ways just a really poor reaction to more sophisticated concerns about how the discourse is evolving. When Jezebel or whomever else defaults to calling Richard an idiot for expressing any good-faith skepticism* of a remarkably dark rape allegation, it raises an inference of at best deliberate indifference to the truth, and at worst outright bad-faith, with the second-level inference being that the narrative is a weaponized political tool rather than a means of truth-seeking and problem solving. So the conversation about the conversation, as to whether or not it’s even appropriate to dissect how this story came about and how we ought go about doing so, becomes its own subtextual fuel.
That’s not a fair inference, nor is it a productive one, but it is a natural and instinctive—I would be willing to hazard a guess that you may have had a similar impulse on the other side of an argument at one point or another in your lifetime. It’s always a lot easier to attribute bad faith to someone you disagree with; once you do the instinct is to resist and oppose them at every turn. It sucks that very few people have the patience to do otherwise.
12/7/2024 9:34 pm
Here’s the excerpt from T. Rees Shapiro’s WASH PO story I was referring to :
—
Overwhelmed by sitting through interviews with the writer, Jackie said she asked Erdely to be taken out of the article. She said Erdely refused, and Jackie was told that the article would go forward regardless.
Jackie said she finally relented and agreed to participate on the condition that she be able to fact-check her parts in the story, which she said Erdely agreed to.
—
There it is people. That’s how this happened. Sabrina LET JACKIE FACT CHECK ALL THE DETAILS — And Sabrina took Jackie’s word for it.
12/7/2024 9:39 pm
If you read T. Rees Shapiro’s first story he writes something that no one is talking about.
He wrote that Jackie only agreed to allowing Sabrina to publish the rape account IF she, Jackie, could do all the fact checking of her part of the story.
THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MINUTE — SABRINA AGREED TO LET JACKIE FACT CHECK HER OWN LIES.
That is why Sabrina NEVER spoke with Andy or Cindy, the most important witnesses in the entire story. Jackie would NOT let Sabrina talk to them.
Why? Because if Sabrina talked to them, then Jackie’s ENTIRE story would have fallen apart.
I have NEVER, EVER, EVER heard of a journalist making a deal where she let the accuser fact check her own story.
12/7/2024 9:57 pm
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/12/why-we-believed-jackies-story-113365.html?hp=t1_r#.VIUSaZY8LCT
12/7/2024 10:09 pm
Cavalier Daily editor Julia Horowitz: “To let fact-checking define the narrative would be a huge mistake.”
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/12/why-we-believed-jackies-story-113365.html?hp=t1_r#.VIUSaZY8LCT
12/7/2024 10:17 pm
Mr. Bradley: Your criticism of the original article had legitimate points. However, I think you could have made and defended those points while, also, addressing the importance of taking rape seriously as a crime.
Because you didn’t, you have become the champion of the irrational and insecure men on your thread who are using this as an excuse to attack all women who think that rape is an important issue as liars and “man haters.” They are angry at and hostile to women, and they think you are one of them. I hope you are not.
Why not use this as an opportunity to simultaneously challenge false reporting while, also, addressing the value of legitimate attention to these kinds of crimes when they do occur?
12/7/2024 10:21 pm
Cavalier Daily editor Julia Horowitz: “To let fact-checking define the narrative would be a huge mistake.”
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/12/why-we-believed-jackies-story-113365.html?hp=t1_r#.VIUYepY8LCT
12/7/2024 10:35 pm
Are you trying to bully our host into becoming a social justice warrior? If that’s the kind of meal you’d like to eat, there are plenty of other blogs serving exactly that.
Just because he’s not going all Jezebel here doesn’t justify your implication that he’s “angry at and hostile to women”, and I think it’s unfair of you to not-so-coyly hint that, if he doesn’t toe your line, well that’s what he is.
12/7/2024 10:59 pm
Oh Anonymous:
You lack the intelligence to understand what I wrote in very basic language. I didn’t write that Mr. Bradley was hostile to women. I wrote that people like YOU are angry at and hostile to women. And you proved my point by writing a hostile comment. (Why are men like you so mad? Did you do something horrible to a woman, something you don’t want to admit even to yourself so now you have to call all women liars in order to justify it in your mind? Really, I am curious. Is that why you are angry and hostile.)
I was suggesting that Mr. Bradley might want to distance himself from people like you because he seems to be rational, intelligent, and capable of respecting women. You do not seem to be any of things. If I were Mr. Bradley, I would not want people to get confused.
12/7/2024 11:22 pm
DiMi
If you had taken the time to read all 190 comments, as well as the comments for the previous 3 or 4 stories, you would have found out that the discourse here has been quite civil.
And many of us are women.
Sheesh. You’re the one initiating vile attacks like you did immediately above me. Very unimpressed by you.
12/7/2024 11:27 pm
DiMi wrote:
“Mr. Bradley: Your criticism of the original article had legitimate points. However, I think you could have made and defended those points while, also, addressing the importance of taking rape seriously as a crime.”
Dimi, are you kidding with this nonsense. Richard has been incredibly careful to state this in every single post. He has qualified his qualifiers for chrissakes. You truly have no idea what you are talking about.
Immediately read his blog posts (starting with the first one from several days ago) and then come back here and apologize for your nonsense.
I am even less impressed with you now.
12/7/2024 11:30 pm
@ Sabrina No Source
Sheesh. You’re the one initiating vile attacks like you did immediately above me. Very unimpressed by you.
Don’t take the bait. This person is clearly trying to distract us from getting to the bottom of this story. Just ignore and stay focused.
12/7/2024 11:43 pm
ANON
The next potential shoe to drop will occur (or not) in 17 minutes on Twitter. I hope you are watching a certain Twitter account as we approach midnight, as the operator of said account will be releasing information on Jackie’s past history of false rape allegations.
12/7/2024 11:44 pm
To Anon posting Re: Politco link above by Cavalier Daily editor Julia Horowitz, I am truly baffled by the piece! Not only has Cavalier Daily dropped the ball entirely on the need for follow-up called by the entire world and managed to get scooped by Washington Post for shoelace reporting (perhaps short on staff, I’ll cut the aspiring student journalists some slack), the piece sounds so close to Kate Stoeffel’s article about backlach being a “trap for feminists”.
At the end of Kate’s emotional excuse for a rebuttal, she pens, “If anything, we should hope that Jackie is lying. Then exactly zero lives will have been ruined in this story.”
WHAT THE ACTUAL ****? Is this what feminism has come down to? Too much “lets side with the victim completely aka guilty until proven innocent” mentality. I thought feminism was about equality, but what I am seeing time and time again is that it is politically shifting towards misandry.
What about the fraternity boys’ lives, property damage at UVA, Phi Psi reputation’s damage? And please, privileged-powerful men? How underprivileged is this girl that she too goes to UVA, not even her first choice school?
Sadly, truth may not be as dramatic (rape culture/epidemic) and lies are a necessary political vehicle to instigate change. But make no mistake, if people who care to question “heinous crimes” are being branded “rape apologists”, women who do not report a crime should thusly be branded “rape enablers”. That is the only change UVA should make in its policy to clear up this whole mess and redeem itself.
12/7/2024 11:48 pm
Anonymous:
Please stop lying to yourself. You do not want to get to the bottom of any story about rape.You want to silence any story about rape and any productive discourse about ending violence against women because you have a problem with women. Go deal with it. You are exploiting Mr. Bradley’s site in order to promote that agenda. I am not promoting an agenda. I am stating a point of view. I know that you cannot tell the difference now nor will you ever be able to do so. However, it is worth it to make the distinction.
Sabrina Whatever:
I have no interest in impressing you as you have not written a word that has impressed me.
I am impressed with Mr. Bradley’s candor. However, I disagree with your assessment of how Mr. Bradley has represented his perspective on the larger issues at hand. I was disappointed by how he represented those issues, and I stated my opinion about it. You see, that’s what adults do. They sometimes disagree with each other and state those different opinions. It has nothing to do with impressing anybody. That is hardly the point.
12/7/2024 11:53 pm
DiMi
Is this the type of adult comment that you were referring to:
(Why are men like you so mad? Did you do something horrible to a woman, something you don’t want to admit even to yourself so now you have to call all women liars in order to justify it in your mind? Really, I am curious. Is that why you are angry and hostile.)
And that is YOUR example of being an adult. Well done.
12/7/2024 11:54 pm
women who do not report a crime should thusly be branded “rape enablers”.
……………………………….
That’s harsh.
Yet if all or nearly all women fought back by reporting to LE, they would not only be truly empowered, but also prevent countless other rapes.
12/8/2024 12:17 am
Sabrina Whatever:
Oh dear. Do you know that when you suck up to men that do not respect women, that your adulation does not make them respect or like you. It just makes them think that they can control you, like a pet. If that’s what you want, keep on doing what you’re doing. However, do not get confused about what the end result will be. Why not try to connect with men who do respect women? They are out there, and they are much smarter, less dangerous, more successful, better in bed, and more fun. It’s just a suggestion, dear.
As for my question to Anon: I really am curious. Why are some of these men so furious that women are even talking about this, that women dare to even think that we have the right to think it’s a problem that so many women have been raped? What is so threatening them about this issue? Why are they such babies about it? I asked because I really want to know, and I truly don’t care if it’s adult or not. I really don’t. Why? Because men like Anonymous are not men at all. They are just really old boys who are still scared of mommy and they think that demeaning women is what will make them feel like men. It doesn’t work, but they keep trying. It’s not possible for women to have an adult discussion with them because they don’t listen to women or care what women think. So who cares about being adult with them? I certainly don’t. But I am curious about why they are so crazy so I asked.
However, you seemed very young and like somebody who could benefit from knowing what happens when adults have a conversation. You do care about this issue and you have the potential to have a thoughtful discussion with somebody - not me - who cares. Discuss this with real men, not angry man-boys. You’ll learn a lot more.
12/8/2024 12:19 am
If you read T. Rees Shapiro’s first story in the Wash Po he writes something that no one is talking about.
He wrote that Jackie only agreed to allowing Sabrina to publish the rape account IF she, Jackie, could do all the fact checking of her part of the story.
THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MINUTE — SABRINA AGREED TO LET JACKIE FACT CHECK HER OWN LIES.
That is why Sabrina NEVER spoke with Andy or Cindy, the most important witnesses in the entire story. Jackie would NOT let Sabrina talk to them.
Why? Because if Sabrina talked to them, then Jackie’s ENTIRE story would have fallen apart.
I have NEVER, EVER, EVER heard of a journalist making a deal where she let the accuser fact check her own story.
12/8/2024 12:20 am
Here’s the excerpt from T. Rees Shapiro’s WASH PO story I was referring to :
—
Overwhelmed by sitting through interviews with the writer, Jackie said she asked Erdely to be taken out of the article. She said Erdely refused, and Jackie was told that the article would go forward regardless.
Jackie said she finally relented and agreed to participate on the condition that she be able to fact-check her parts in the story, which she said Erdely agreed to.
—
There it is people. That’s how this happened. Sabrina LET JACKIE FACT CHECK ALL THE DETAILS — And Sabrina took Jackie’s word for it. Unfrigginbelievable.
12/8/2024 12:31 am
@ Sabrina No Source
Here’s another interesting perspective from within journalism
https://mobile.twitter.com/boydroddy
12/8/2024 12:41 am
WNC14: Harsh, but true and necessary. However, I do concede reporting is not easy especially when transparency and action are confused in a historically pitted setting such as UVA.
My reference is an interesting 2009 piece written by Kristen Lombardi about a UVA student Kathryn Russell who had difficulty reporting her case of sexual assault that occurred in her dorm room at UVA in 2004. She felt the campus police mishandled her case, due to jurisdiction the city police refused to take it up and the university requested her confidentiality in academic proceedings against the assailer. The problem with this is that the University seemed to want to keep things quiet and rape/sexual assault to be brutally honest is not an academic violation per se. It is a criminal one and the only ones properly equipped to handle it is the statewide law enforcement. THIS is the nugget Erdely could have chosen to focus on because it was a big problem back then and it seems to still be a big problem now. Instead, SRE chose to embellish her story because, that transparency problem has already been reported on and wasn’t dramatic enough.
For those of you interested and have time on your hands, here is the link:
http://www.publicintegrity.org/2009/12/01/9047/sexual-assault-campus-shrouded-secrecy
12/8/2024 1:02 am
@Female UVA Grad ’86
Thank you for taking the time to read my post. I am sorry to hear some in your family have been unwilling to change their views in light of developments with this story.
UVA is a wonderful institution. It is a top-notch school with extremely bright students. Like many professors, I came here in no small part because of the honor code. I am sorry this has all happened, but in my view the best way to restore the School’s reputation is to continue to make this an outstanding place to receive an education (and produce citizens who are leaders and role models).
I don’t know what happened to Jackie and I don’t know what happened the night in question. If Jackie was harmed I hope she receives the help and support she needs and is able to put her life back together. I can’t imagine the anguish if my daughter were assaulted at college, it’s every parent’s nightmare (and unfortunately we have had two murders of students here recently that are very real and even worse). So I understand the concerns people have when they hear stories like this. UVA is not a perfect place, but it is a really, really good place. I suspect you know all this because I suspect you had four terrific years here.
12/8/2024 5:58 am
There is a WaPo piece published this morning, the first paragraph of which reads
———————-
Among the first to perceive cracks in the facade of Rolling Stone’s piece on campus gang rape was editor Richard Bradley. On Nov. 24, days before The Washington Post reported problems with the piece and Rolling Stone confessed its failings, Bradley said he smelled something fishy. “I’m not convinced that this gang rape actually happened,” he wrote on Nov. 24. “Something about this story doesn’t feel right.”
———————————
I know that Mr. Bradley isn’t in this for the glory, or for blog hits, but it’s nice to see credit given where it’s due.
12/8/2024 5:59 am
This is the link for the piece crediting Mr Bradley:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/12/08/the-epic-rolling-stone-gang-rape-fallout-and-how-major-publications-get-it-wrong/?tid=hp_mm&hpid=z3
12/8/2024 6:31 am
My deepest respect and admiration for the university’s current student body. I am so proud to be an alumna of UVa.
I just read about the “Lighting of the Lawn”, and of how students and faculty came together looking for some meaning and peace as Mr. Jefferson’s university still remains in the eye of this storm-and how fitting, isn’t it that it is at Jefferson’s university that we revisit these questions of equality. We didn’t have a “Lighting of the Lawn” event when I was at the university, but it is certainly a lovely-and powerful-idea.
Also, in actual news from the university itself, Tommy Reid, president of UVa’s Inter Fraternity Council said, that even in light of the unraveling RS article, he wants to keep attention “locked onto efforts to reform the Greek system and the university as a whole to stop sexual violence.”
I was going to suggest that fraternity brothers put on their bow ties and watch “Roman Holiday” to see how gentlemen deal with a woman who has had too much to drink, but I knew that wouldn’t fly. After reading what Reid said, though, I think I was wrong.
Anon, I was going to thank you for offering an apology of sorts, but there you went and insulted DiMi. You need to revisit your classes in Respect 101.
Dimi,
Thank you. I have been called a lot of things in my life, but “human excrement” is not one of them. Now Mr. Bradley and I have something in common. That is, we have both been associated in some way with excrement.
In the 1970s it was an exercise in feminism just to attend the university. Ironically, though, I am glad I did attend then, because I got an education unencumbered by the deadening, inane insertion of political dogma into every aspect, it seems, of education-and by that, I mean from the right and the left. I began to read Bradley’s blog because it is just straight prose. I don’t want to have to sift through political jargon to get the news. I still find the AP to be the gold standard. Thank heavens for the integrity of true journalists.
12/8/2024 7:13 am
Well, the Twitter midnight-reveal was useless. No new information whatsoever. I will reiterate that I do NOT support naming the accused, for so many reasons, despite the fact that she willfully lied to Rolling Stone, and schemed to prevent Sabrina from contacting her friends, Andy and Cindy.
12/8/2024 7:17 am
By the way, Rolling Stone has now finally talked about “Andy” — in their current apology on their website.
“Rolling Stone commits perhaps the most self-damaging parenthetical in the history of journalistic self-assessment. It comes from the magazine’s “note to readers”: “A friend of Jackie’s (who we were told would not speak to Rolling Stone) told the Washington Post that he found Jackie that night a mile from the school’s fraternities.” Bold text added to highlight an un-get-pastable problem: Rolling Stone is in possession of a gang-rape allegation that includes a broken glass table, seven assailants and penetration with a bottle. Not only does it not have an official complaint, it has agreed not to contact the accused AND it has apparently accepted the affirmation of some interested party that a pivotal source isn’t really up for an interview.”
Source: Wash Po
12/8/2024 7:50 am
ugh, that apology from Anna Merlan was childish and pathetic. She sounds like an upset little girl “this is bad.. bad bad!” She sounds like a junkie apologizing for getting caught stealing again - the only reason she is sorry is that she is wrong and “in trouble”. Her apology is unbelievable, and nothing about her will change as a result.
That you would go so far as to say her shitty clickbait writing is somehow indicative that she has the potential to be a fine journalist… good god.
12/8/2024 8:40 am
Re: “Cindy” … is starting to sound like the “Cindy” that Erdely described.
OMG yes. She probably still wouldn’t be talking to the press if she hadn’t been maligned. My phantom sources tell me that the WaPo edited her full quote, which was:
“I remember it, but it was not very dramatic,” Cindy said “It’s not like it was raining and my hair got frizzy or anything.”
OK, maybe not. MAYBE!
A different question for all the “Jackie Lied” camp - when an Iraq/Afghanistan vet with PTSD misremembers details of his tour, he/she is also a shameful liar? I need to adjust my scorecard.
Re: “I have no idea if it is true, but it has begun to float around Twitter that Jackie has made PREVIOUS false accusations of rape in her past.”
Exactly - no idea, which is why someone like Mr. Bradley wouldn’t be repeating them. I checked some of the sites making that allegation - well, you can see for yourself, but I won’t be vouching for them. And any such claims failed to make the local press (which is hardly dispositive).
Re: “I had never even heard of “Steve Sailer”…”
Steve Sailer is a national treasure and when he speaks I listen very carefully. But yes, he is under-recognized.
re Sabrina’s “I have NEVER, EVER, EVER heard of a journalist making a deal where she let the accuser fact check her own story.”
Maybe we don’t want this thread to become a catalog of your ignorance. Google “quote approval” and learn something. Google “Working the Story: A Guide to Reporting and News Writing for Journalists and Public Relations Professionals” and you will see that the practice, while controversial, is recommended here. They emphasize that fact-checking is not editing.
Which takes the air out of your subsequent claim that Jackie “schemed” to keep Erdely from talking to Andy. I find it more likely that Erdely liked the story she had and didn’t mind not upsetting the apple cart.
12/8/2024 8:59 am
“Just for the record, I like Rolling Stone. I’m a subscriber, and I think the magazine has done a lot of great reporting over the past few years. It’s still committed to long-form journalism, which is increasingly rare. I defended the magazine, on this blog, for all the heat it took about its Boston Bomber cover.
I just don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater here…”
Given how dirty the bathwater is now, I’m not convinced there’s still a baby in that mess. The bathwater needed to have been cleaned a long time ago if you cared about that baby (stretching this metaphor to it’s breaking point here I know, so I’ll stop trying).
Given the responses by the editors, Rolling Stone, etc…
I don’t see how you excise the parts that make up the problem without either leaving the people who allowed this in place to allow it again; or remove so much you’ve got virtually nothing left & have to pretty much start over.
Once you institutionalize bad reporting; you get bad reporters and everyone who supports, accepts, or encourages it.
To use another metaphor; a fish rots from the head down.
12/8/2024 9:01 am
Tom
Who told Sabrina and Rolling Stone that “Andy” and “Cindy” were NOT willing to talk about that night?
The answer is — JACKIE.
Sabrina didn’t know their real names. She had no way to locate them other than through Jackie. And Jackie LIED to her and said they weren’t willing to talk.
That’s how this happened.
12/8/2024 9:17 am
No props for Steve Sailer, sir? He was the only person giving you traction for a week after your original post.
12/8/2024 9:30 am
@PROF AT UVA - Thank you for taking the time to respond to me. I love UVa, and my love for it has only grown over the years. I am glad that you also seem to appreciate it for the very special place that it is.
I am afraid you may have mis-intrepreted my meaning, which is hard to “communicate” on a message board like this. I moved “north of the mason-dixon” ten years ago. We now live in Erdely’s back yard. She is not alone in her views. I have come to the conclusion that the article got written by Erdely because the narrative fed so cleanly into her existing biases, and UVa being the institution that it is, with the evil doers the “elite fraternity” was the icing on the cake. No need to fact check. She knew in her heart it must be true - her biases told her so, and the story itself was the confirmation. Erdely said as much in a podcast interview with Slate. Her words, not mine.
The article is filled with “dog whistles” - the throngs of “mostly blonde” students, for example - that appeal to a certain contingent that likes to view itself as superior to anything in the “South”. I would never have said that before I moved here. I have very good friends here - I also have had people say things to me in normal polite conversation around my dinner table that have made my jaw drop at their bigotry -said by proud “Ivy Leaguers” - things that if a white christian male had said would have them up on charges immediately. I do not say these things lightly, nor do I want to put more in writing on a forum such as this.
Suffice it to say, I don’t believe the University, or its administration, or the faculty, understands the level of hatred and bigotry that has been aimed at it like a laser. The biases that drove Erdely to write the piece, and are leaping off the page, if you go back and read it with an ear open to the dog whistles - still exist. The facts of “Jackie’s case” being cast into doubt don’t matter - UVa is still a Southern (code for white racist) Elite (code for must be destroyed because only Ivies are elite) Good Old Boy (self explanatory) school. Keep your daughters safe - you go down south, and look at what could happen to them - they’re all “rapey” down there. I used to believe the civil war ended long ago. After living here, I now know it didn’t.
UVa will recover. And the people up here will never change their views. I have a problem, however, knowing that UVa’s current president sees UVa through the same lens as the “haters” up here, and accepts their frame. UVa needs more people in place, faculty and administration, who see it like you do. Thank you for loving the school - I hope you will be a force for positive change that will help restore it’s damaged reputation. I would say restore it to greatness, but we both know it’s still great :-))
Teresa Sullivan must go. Now about that basketball team - Go Hoos!
12/8/2024 9:47 am
Erdely has a whole raft of shocking articles that need to fact checked
available here
http://www.sabrinaerdely.com/archives.html
one would think that she would want to take the advice of the yoga cult leader she describes here
http://www.sabrinaerdely.com/docs/YogaCult.pdf
“……At a previous workshop that lasted for 10 days,
she and a dozen others had begun each morning by punching themselves in the stomach while hollering things like “I am stupid!””
12/8/2024 9:58 am
In which Ms. Erdely tries to work out just why her classmate Stephen Glass published fake stories, and decides that the only conclusion as to why someone like he would do such a thing is that “They’re the actions of a sociopathic creep.”
Could someone please fetch Ms. Erdely a mirror?
http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/0104/0104arts02.html
12/8/2024 11:48 am
Rape Culture is a lie.
http://www.aei.org/publication/before-declaring-that-theres-a-rape-epidemic-in-the-us-has-anybody-bothered-to-check-the-actual-data-apparently-not/
12/8/2024 12:42 pm
This is what happens when Social Justice replaces actual justice, and Social Justice Warriors become writers. I strongly reject the idea that they are journalists; they are not. The blog culture of wearing your opinions on your sleeve is seeping through to traditional journalism. This is the result.
To Female UVA Grad: Please do not give up on your alma matter. The UVa president may not look through life as the haters, or more appropriately, SJWs do. But we are in the time of the inquisition. There is only one Truth and to question it is the same as to deny the Truth even exists and run with the worst society had to offer. The pendulum has swung too far, but this could be the start of it coming back.
12/8/2024 1:05 pm
Feel like this is a lie, too:
http://www.cavalierdaily.com/m/blog/on-sexual-assault-letters-from-the-community/2014/12/a-letter-from-a-friend-jackies-story-is-not-a-hoax
She didn’t open her eyes all of those mornings the alarm went off, to see her friend curled up in a ball. She just rolled over, with the alarm magically turning off. Her friend stopped going to class. Ergo, no homework would’ve been turned in. yet, her instructors give her liberty to complete finals over the holiday? This suite mate is unable to recall a bonded friend telling her of an assault by several men. Somehow, she remembers that person’s Netflix preferences? BTW, that is under assumption, as much else is in these stories….the front-and-center Netflix individual profile feature was not in use. Narrative is the new truth. Nothing has to be true, any longer. Merely set up a narrative and the world will burn. The innocent be damned.
12/8/2024 1:12 pm
ABC news interviewed WaPo’s T. Rees Shapiro today, quote:
“Shapiro told ABC News that Jackie’s statements to him contradicted Rolling Stone’s reporting.
“She said that maybe the party wasn’t at Phi [Kappa] Psi and then she told me that maybe the person that attacked her wasn’t a member of the fraternity at all,” he said.”
Come on, folks. PTSD or anything else is not an excuse for being unable to recall the most basic details. And if the most basic details could be so easily challenged, why was the article ever published in the first place?
Someone, somewhere, has to be held accountable for these slurs against UVA and this fraternity. It’s completely unfair.
12/8/2024 1:49 pm
SPMoore
Here’s what should happen:
1) Jackie should be brought up on Honor charges at UVa.
2) Sabrina should be fired immediately from Rolling Stone (I think this is in the works already.)
3) Phi Psi should sue Rolling Stone and perhaps the University itself for rushing to judgement.
4) UVa should also sue Rolling Stone, though I doubt they have the cojones for it.
5) The Virgina Attorney General should open an investigation into the journalsitic malpractice and supboena Rolling Stone and Sabrina.
I’m sure there’s more, but I will leave it to others.
12/8/2024 1:59 pm
86,
This will probably surprise you, but I am a southerner, too. I do know what you are talking about. But I am proud of the university for facing this issue head on and for taking the lead in correcting a problem that does seem to exist on college campuses nationwide, even if the statistics are not yet conclusive. That is a southern tradition, too, as in “To Kill A Mockingbird” southern, so your Ivy League friends would do well to acknowledge their biases. In other words, not all white southerners are racist and sexist. And besides, 86, plenty of schools in the north, including the ivies are in hot water over their handling of sexual assault. You have every right in the world to be proud of our alma mater. Sullivan has taken the bull by the horns and she is working to fix the problem. Don’t let anyone intimidate you because you are from the south. I am sure you are not, and that you don’t need my advice, just been there….
Mr. Bradley,
Thanks for hosting this conversation.
12/8/2024 2:20 pm
Thank you, Richard, for your skepticism and measured response to the RS article. I have a son who will enter college next year, and a daughter two years behind, so this story and the subsequent fallout has resonated with me.
I saw today that a blogger has outed Jackie, and while I do not condone her making false allegations about a brutal gang rape at Phi Kappa Psi, I do feel sorry for her, and fear for her as well. Whether or not something happened to her that fateful night, she appears to be mentally imbalanced. Either she experienced some kind of assault and embellished the story, or nothing happened and she made the whole thing up. Either way speaks to her mental state. Now that she has been outed, and her rape activist friends have distanced themselves from her, I can only imagine she is feeling very alone right now. Could she be suicidal? I hope not. She certainly bears the responsibility for fabricating this story , but I blame Susan Rubin Erdely for this whole mess.
SRE is supposed to be a professional journalist, and she’s also an adult. Her lack of curiosity, and her zeal to print a story that “felt right” and fed into her biases, has caused damage to this young woman, Jackie. She dropped the ball as a journalist when she didn’t independently corroborate Jackie’s story, and she failed as a human being when she ran with the story without any consideration to the fallout - to UVA, to Phi Kappa Psi, and to Jackie.
SRE could have at any time told Jackie how sorry she was for what happened but that she just couldn’t print the story without talking to her friends who helped her that night, and without talking to the accused rapists. That would have been the kind of thing a mature,caring adult would do for a fragile young person.
But then I guess she would have had to pass on all the attention and accolades such a sensational story brought.
12/8/2024 2:23 pm
Following up with with Sabrina,
6) The immediate removal of President Sullivan and an absolute commitment to transparency in disclosing how and why administrators and university bureaucrats turned on their male Greek population and jeopardized their end-of-semester studies, freedom of campus movements, and reputations by tossing them to an angry mob instead of immediately bringing in law enforcement and launching a proper investigation. Not to mention… an actual genuine apology to all Greeks on campus for summarily punishing everyone for the alleged (and now most likely debunked) accusations of “Jackie” as reported by SRE in Rolling Stone.
I read several Greek bodies (fraternity and sorority) are in the process of filing a Freedom of Information Act to get to the bottom of this. (source: politico)
Good for them. It’s a start, but they need to get out in front of this thing while they can and certainly not stay in the shadows.
12/8/2024 2:27 pm
One conclusion I’ve made is that there needs to be a clearer distinction drawn between what’s appropriate for victims’ support groups and what’s appropriate for matters of journalism, setting public policy, or investigating specific claims (whether through the criminal justice system or university disciplinary systems). Specifically, I refer to the following quote from Allison Benedikt’s and Hannah Rosin’s 12/2/14 story posted at Slate (which Mr. Bradley has previously referenced):
“What became clear from talking to Jackie’s supporters at UVA is that the community of victim advocates operates by a very specific code. “The first thing as a friend we must say is, ‘I believe you and I am here to listen,’ ” says Brian Head, president of UVA’s all-male sexual assault peer education group One in Four. Head and others believe that questioning a victim is a form of betrayal, because it will make her feel judged and all the more reluctant to ever speak about what happened. None of the people we spoke to had asked Jackie who the men were, and in fact none of them had any idea. They did not press her on any details about the incident.”
That attitude of unquestionably assuming that an alleged victim’s story is true makes sense for groups who believe that’s the appropriate way to support someone. Essentially, they’re saying that they’d rather run the risk of putting their emotional energy into supporting someone making a false or exaggerated claim than the risk of being seen as harsh and uncaring by someone who is telling the truth. That’s a defensible trade-off, as long the people involved understand what they’re doing.
The problem, as we’ve seen in this case, is that standard of evidence is wholly inappropriate for a journalist. It’s also not the correct standard for disciplinary action that ought to require at least a “preponderance of the evidence” standard and quite possibly something more like a standard of “clear and convincing evidence”. A criminal conviction, of course, depends on the standard of “beyond a reasonable doubt.” (There’s a related question of whether it’s wise for universities to be conducting their own trial-like hearings to adjudicate what should be felony charges if they’re true.)
This distinction is also why it gets challenging if groups are mixing “support” with “advocacy”. The former is a world where Mr. Head’s stated attitude makes sense. The latter implies moving into a world of requesting policy changes and calling for charges against individuals. That latter world is, as I’ve said, not consistent with believing that “questioning the victim is a form of betrayal.” An alleged victim should be treated with respect and sensitivity, but not blind acceptance.
12/8/2024 3:15 pm
Great post, Dave
12/8/2024 3:55 pm
“Who told Sabrina and Rolling Stone that “Andy” and “Cindy” were NOT willing to talk about that night?
The answer is — JACKIE.
From Sabrina No Source:
“Sabrina didn’t know their real names. She had no way to locate them other than through Jackie. And Jackie LIED to her and said they weren’t willing to talk.
That’s how this happened.”
I appreciate the irony of asking someone whose chosen name is “No Source” for a source. I even appreciate the skill it has taken to maintain this parody of Sabrina Erdely, who clearly is comfortable making unverifiable claims.
But I’ll play straight man one more time - is there ANY source other than your imagination that the only route to those friends was through Jackie? Just for example, Andy is apparently involved with the one of the counseling centers himself. And it seems pretty clear that Erdely found Randall, who gave her a “Shitshow” quote before citing frat loyalty.
12/8/2024 4:07 pm
I find all this talk of Uva as a southern school a little off key. When I went there in the late 80s/early 90s, it didn’t feel particularly southern - lots of kids from northern va (definitely not the south), tidewater (borderline) and New York/NJ. I think Prof. Ayers called it (paraphrasing) “not the real South, but a sea of BMW’s in the South.”
I can’t imagine it’s gotten more Southern since then as the diversity has increased so much since then.
12/8/2024 4:18 pm
I was enjoying this blog until I wanted to do a little research into its author. It turns out Richard “Bradley” is one and the same as Richard Blow (I shouldn’t put that in quotes since it was a legal name change but given the circumstances I think it’s appropriate). The gent who broke a confidentiality agreement to write a book about his time working for JFK Jr. at George. Then I read a NYT article about his newer book about the Harvard President and a name struck me as familiar: Lisa DePaulo. Lisa was (allegedly) fired by Richard Blow for speaking publicly about JFK Jr. in the aftermath of his death in 1999. Three years later, he profited immensely by publishing a full-length book about it. I’m not sure if stating “we had a falling out” is really full disclosure.
I’m also not sure if Richard “Bradley” is the person who should be calling into question anyone’s integrity.
12/8/2024 4:57 pm
SPMoore8
Maybe Phi Psi will file a libel suit against RS.
Surprisingly, a lot of good is coming from this debacle, and UVa and Phi Psi will get there eventually, I believe.
I just read an article posted on Tom Maguire’s blog (Tom links to the article) about overblown statistics, and how young men are getting a raw deal on campuses when it comes to sexual assault. The article is definitely worth a read. Some ideas circulating here are getting a wider audience. (Love your blog, Tom)
I am rapidly reaching the conclusion that many people are: these are law enforcement issues and many incidents involve alcohol. This is where UVa is responding properly, in my view, with plans to beef up police and attack the alcohol problem.
Give the devil her due, we wouldn’t be talking about any of this without Erdely’s now infamous article.
12/8/2024 5:02 pm
Andy is apparently involved with the one of the counseling centers himself. And it seems pretty clear that Erdely found Randall, who gave her a “Shitshow” quote before citing frat loyalty.
Actually, the Randall quote is now under dispute. As far as Andy, Sabrina and Rolling Stone fact checkers both wanted to speak with him and Cindy, but they were told by Jackie that neither one would speak to Rolling Stone.
Sabrina said this word for word in one of her TV interviews before all this blew up. I was watching it live, and the reporter asked her if she had spoken directly to Andy or Cindy.
Also, remember that the Wash Po reported that Sabrina made a deal where she allowed Jackie to fact check her own parts of the story. Shocking, I agree. But Jackie complained about “losing control over her own story” so Sabrina caved and let Jackie do her own fact checking.
12/8/2024 5:03 pm
Bailers and 77 - I hear you. I am nothing but proud of UVa, and no, I have never let myself be intimidated as a southerner up here in the “great” north. Usually, it’s more incredulity that these idiots think their own excrement doesn’t have an odor. I routinely challenge any and all false statements when they are made. Usually it ends up with the person acknowledging they’ve never been to the south. . .
My fear/concern for UVA is expressed by the link below - NPR’s Here and Now interviewed Hanna Rosin this afternoon about the fallout from the article. Everyone should listen to it. Ms. Rosin, is very much on our side, i.e. she likes to deal with facts not fiction, and she has been very critical of Erdely’s “reporting”.
However, the interviewer goes on to say they reached out to John Foubert a former dean at UVa - who is quoted saying UVa has an egregious problem with both sexual assault and cover up - the worst he’s ever seen in any of the institutions he’s been affiliated with. The interviewer then goes on to press Rosin - isn’t it fair to say that even if Jackie’s story isn’t correct, the rest of the article is? Rosin didn’t bite,
Turns out John Foubert is the national president of 1 in 4. I won’t link his latest article trashing the school “Why I still believe rape survivors” at Huffington Post - you can google it yourselves, but here is a taste:
“Despite the obsession that some at UVA have in prioritizing reputation over human welfare as now has been laid bare, we all have even more reason to believe that Jackie was gang raped at Phi Psi, that UVA has a deeper cultural problem with rape than we could ever have imagined, and that the way this story has played out teaches us a great deal about how not to treat a woman who has survived a horrific trauma.”
This was posted on 12/7/2014. It is over the top, possibly worse than the Rolling Stone article, and completely trashes the school and the fraternities -add John Foubert to the libel suits. I know a couple of people up here who fully believe this - Jackie’s story is false, but it’s true that UVa is rape central. It’s the culture of the place. And this is the story that is being promoted today, 12/8, in the media.
http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2014/12/08/uva-rolling-stone
UVa has a long road ahead of it to restore its reputation. The biases that Erdely promoted resonate for those that want to believe them, and they don’t want to let them go, even when proven demonstratively false.
12/8/2024 5:10 pm
The “Something Happened” narrative.
Just curious if after reading Emily Yoffe’s article in Slate, that you would say, “something happened” to CB? While obviously something did happen, the phrase, “something happened” seems to have come to mean some sexual assault or rape happened. If the facts are as Yoffe has stated them, I would be curious as to how many still believe “something happened” to CB as the University believes.
12/8/2024 5:17 pm
Fluboy,
I won’t argue with a UVa alum about South or North for the school and its culture. I have been aware, in a nominal sense, of great Southern pride about UVa. For example, I once knew someone planning to go to law school. He was from North Carolina, and had done his BA at Chapel Hill. He got into Columbia U. Law School, but he really wanted to go to UVa.
And then there’s the bow-tie thing, even at football games, from what I’ve read . . .
12/8/2024 5:18 pm
Fluboy,
I won’t argue with a UVa alum about South or North for the school and its culture. I have been aware, in a nominal sense, of great Southern pride about UVa. For example, I once knew someone planning to go to law school. He was from North Carolina, and had done his BA at UNC Chapel Hill. He got into Columbia U. Law School, but he really wanted to go to UVa.
And then there’s the bow-tie thing, even at football games, from what I’ve read . . .
12/8/2024 5:30 pm
From Dave:
“The problem, as we’ve seen in this case, is that standard of evidence is wholly inappropriate for a journalist. It’s also not the correct standard for disciplinary action that ought to require at least a “preponderance of the evidence” standard and quite possibly something more like a standard of “clear and convincing evidence”. A criminal conviction, of course, depends on the standard of “beyond a reasonable doubt.”
This brings up a great question. What should be the standard of evidence for a University trial regarding rape/sexual assault? When reading the Yoffe article, it would appear that even the “preponderance” standard is thrown out the window as well as the Constitution as regards due process.
12/8/2024 7:40 pm
Hi DW -
For law schools, Columbia is #4, UVA is #8 in the US News and World Report rankings. I can think of a lot of reasons to attend UVA law school over Columbia - none of them have anything to do with “Southern Pride” - more to do with where you want to live, what kind of school you want to attend, and so on. C’ville is a really nice small city, and reasonably close to DC, for example.
I don’t know that I would consider UVA all that “Southern.” It has the history, sure - but about a quarter to a third of the students are from out of state (mostly from NY, NJ, and PA when I went there) and the largest chunk of students are from Northern Virginia, ie the DC suburbs. NoVa is not remotely Southern - it’s generic US urban/suburban with lots of well-to-do professionals with hometowns all over the world.
I’d call UVA more an eclectic mix of country-club influence on top of a culture that’s all about modern really-smart-people - not so much true Southern, although you can find that if you look for it.
Bow ties? Someone was pulling your leg. Ugly golf clothes and clothes that are preppy enough to be satirical - that I could believe. But that’s not the majority - it’s mixed with everything from goth to jeans to dressy to super trendy.
I’m sure someone wears bow ties, and they probably did then too, but they would have stood out even when I attended 30+ years ago.
12/9/2024 6:46 am
OW UVA ALUMNA
Yes, what you say is true-the student body is increasingly composed of students who are from outside of the area, a sore point with many southerners, since the university is partially funded by the citizens of the state of Virginia, which, believe it or not, still contains citizens who consider themselves southerners. UVa is a good alternative for those who want an “Ivy League” education, but not really. What was it Faulkner called UVa? “The Harvard of the South”. On the bow tie issue, Allen Groves, current dean, has one on as he meets with the Board of Regents. Don’t know how you missed that one.
UVa is a great university. I think we all agree on that.
12/9/2024 7:12 am
Ow Uva Alumna,
Yes, what you say is true. Increasingly, the student body at UVa. is composed of students who are not from Virginia, or, perhaps, not even from the broader region of “The South”-a sore point with many, since UVa. is still partially funded by the state of Virginia.
What was it Faulkner, once writer in residence at UVa., called the university? : “The Harvard of the South”. Well maybe it is, or maybe it isn’t, but the university does provide a sort of ivy league education without being an ivy, and there is a long history of the university, that most definitely embeds it deeply within southern culture, beginning with the fact that Thomas Jefferson, a Virginian and a Southerner, founded it.
On the bow tie thing-Allen Groves, current dean, was wearing one in a meeting with the Board of Regents, I believe. I think that we can all agree that UVa is a great university, no matter what we, as former students, perceive the university’s history to be, or its current reality.
12/9/2024 7:32 am
Apologies for the multiple entries. Internet connection malfunction.
12/9/2024 9:39 pm
Richard, re: your assertion that journalists are tribal, and not necessarily in a good way. Here’s the perfect Exhibit A:
“fabulist”
It’s a rarely used term. In fact, I’ll admit I had not heard it before, and I’m a journalism and English major who writes for a living. (Stephen Glass came well after my college years, and while I had heard of his fall, I wasn’t aware of his book, nor did I notice the term back then.)
A quick Google search tells me it’s centuries old and French in origin, so it’s not like journalists made up the title for themselves.
But when reporting about any other industry, journalists don’t use that term. Someone who repeatedly makes up facts for his or her personal gain would be branded a liar, perhaps with the term “pathological” in front of it. If that non-journalist knowingly slandered someone, he’d be branded a criminal, perhaps described as malicious.
Journalists seem to reserve usage of this term just for themselves, almost as if journalistic lying is a higher class of dishonesty. They use a word that doesn’t even sound negative - it sounds like “fabulous” more than anything else in our modern vocabulary. And the negative connotation of fabulist is only the secondary definition - Webster’s primary defintion is “creator.” Aesop was a fabulist.
Tribalism indeed!
12/9/2024 11:26 pm
To Female UVA Grad 86, 77, and the many UVA alums clearly reading this thread:
I understand the vitriol sometimes directed at UVA for being a “Southern” school, I have experienced it sometimes too. Ironically President Sullivan was brought in, in no small part to “break” this insular stereotype (i.e. first female non-UVA alum president). As others have noted, between its [North]east coast student population and NoVa in-state students, its not actually very Southern.
Anyway, ironically this article has set off a debate about sexual assault, but probably not the one Erdely sought to effect. Rather than outrage about gang rape running amuck on college campuses, my sense is that people are coming to realize that sexual assault is a serious problem but not unique to college campuses and one which requires sensible solutions. For example, Ms. Yoffe’s Slate article on the other side of this problem (male victims being falsely accused) brings much needed attention to the well-meaning but misguided policies that are being effected at all levels right now. So if there is a silver lining, it is that we might actually get healthy (and balanced) debate, on a serious issue, that produces more than feel good reactionary policies.
Here is what I do believe. Whether you feel President Sullivan should be removed or not (and I imagine that conversation is coming in light of her contentious relationship with the Board), I do not believe she has deliberately sought to cover up a “rape culture”, nor do I believe she is more interested in burying the issue out of fear of lawsuits and losing donations than doing what is right. As I have posted previously, I do not believe this was the President’s finest hour, but there is a big difference between mishandling a situation and being malevolent about it (much as Ms. Erdely would love to have readers believe it is the latter). So even though I was upset with the way President handled the situation, I don’t want to perpetuate the myth that she was operating with malicious intent or I’m no better than the RS journalist.
I promise to do everything in my power to build a better institution. I also hope that the many alumni who are reading about this issue will feel a call to engage (or re-engage) with the University as well. It is always alumni that make the difference in the strength of an institution (not just money, but commitment!). I am really encouraged by the passion so many people, especially alums, have expressed.
Okay, I really need to sign off (much to do to close out the semester). But not so much that I won’t go take in a basketball game or two!
12/10/2024 7:14 am
Prof@UVA,
Thanks for your input. I agree that the “silver lining” of this incident can potentially be a frank discussion by both sides of the debate, and hopefully, ensuing action. I was not aware that there was a “rape culture”, or of the problem of sexual assault on campuses. I think both the lack of protection women may be facing and the lack of due process for men warrants very close scrutiny.
On the issue of UVa being a Southern school or not, can’t fit it into this bluebook comment box, but, just food for thought: Harvard’s student body is very diverse, yet we do not say that Harvard is not an American university. We are proud of Harvard. Not only is it an American university, but an American university embedded in northern culture. If you are an alumna or alumnus from Harvard, it is not necessary to distance yourself from the university’s history. (The same cannot be said of Brown, but how many people know that the founders of Brown were heavily involved in the slave trade. ) In other words, it is still, apparently, necessary for a white southerner to distance himself or herself from the culture and history of the South. Therefore, saying that UVa. is not a Southern school is just as problematic as saying it is. Had “Drew” been an actual rapist, he could just as easily have been from New Jersey, and not from Mississippi, something that Erdely did not seem to know, but that Faulkner certainly did, re Absalom, Absalom! Many of my professors were northerners and they were terrific, as were most of the students, so I don’t want to invert the narrative. It just gets tiresome having to refute the stereotype.
I hope you enjoyed the game!
86,
I did not intend to jump in front of you, just a time constraint necessity.
Open question on capitalization: is it southern or Southern, North or north? Can’t tell, it seems to have changed.
12/14/2014 6:16 pm
77, I don’t think the student body has many more out of state students than it used to, looking from now back about 30 years. It was a high percentage then, and AFAIK that high percentage has continued unbroken through to the present. It is significantly harder to get in from outside Va. and many of the out of state students are high achievers and or legacies.
NoVa is the largest and richest part of Virginia, contributes a huge chunk of the in-state students, and is not much more Southern than Chicago. It’s the DC suburbs.
I am a Virginian, not NoVa, back both sides multiple generations - and I’d call my family and heritage Southern. I know it when I see it, and I don’t consider being Southern a perjorative. That said, I don’t consider “Southern” to be a synonym for being racist or sexist or backwards, and I don’t excuse any of those traits in Southerners.
I don’t consider UVA particularly Southern at all. That includes when I attended back somewhere around the late dark ages. Country club, yes, Southern, no.
Re the bow ties, anyone can wear them, but if you wear one on grounds or at a football game, you are going to stand out. It isn’t the norm.
12/14/2014 6:34 pm
77, I think you’re reading in something that isn’t there. I’m not distancing myself. I am identifiably a Southerner by birth, accent, and ancestry. The history of the South is what it is, and I’m not an apologist for things that cannot be excused.
That said, neither Charlottesville nor UVA are particularly Southern, and I say that from a “it takes one to know one” perspective. Monied and country-clubby, very much so, but not Southern.
Again, I do not consider Southern to be code for racist or sexist or backward. I do consider myself a Southerner.
UVA is geographically a Southern school, but culturally, not so much.