Liz Seccuro Speaks Out Against My “Rant”
Posted on December 5th, 2014 in Uncategorized | 55 Comments »
On Time.com, UVA rape survivor Liz Seccuro publishes a piece headlined, “Don’t Doubt a Victim’s Story Just Because It Sounds Horrific.”
I have no desire to get into an extended debate with Ms. Securro, whose strength and courage I have nothing but respect for. She endured a terrible experience and has turned it into something positive—she wrote a book about her saga and is now a victim’s advocate and professional speaker—which is heroic.
Still…Seccuro misrepresents what I have written and takes some cheap shots along the way. So let me at least defend myself. I learned some time ago that if people take shots at you and you don’t stand up for yourself, it only emboldens others to do the same.
Seccuro writes:
Former George journalist Richard Bradley fired the first shot at the Rolling Stone story. “I’m not sure that this gang rape actually happened,” he wrote in a blog post, using brilliant plagiarist Stephen Glass (whom he edited, and who duped him) as a comparison base for the idea that astounding and uncomfortable stories must be fabricated. Though Bradley’s rant was on his personal blog, doubts have now burbled up at established outlets.
That priapic language—I “fired the first shot”—is a little sleazy. Seccuro’s a smart woman and an accomplished writer; she knows what she’s doing.
My blog post was a “rant,” Securro adds—in other words, angry, aggressive, slightly out of control.
When you’ve tried hard to be dispassionate, it’s frustrating to have one’s words so blithely demeaned as emotional. I don’t think my blog was a rant; the New York Times, which called it an “essay” (too generous, but I’ll take it) didn’t either.
Like saying that I “fired the first shot,” with the anti-male stereotypes of that phrase, it’s sexist of Securro to employ the term “rant.” It’d be like if I called Securro’s article “hysterical.” (I’m not; it’s just a comparison.)
And then, the deepest cut; I wrote the post on a my “personal blog.” From way down in that muck, “doubts have now burbled up” to “established” outlets.
It’s a terrible thing when someone’s words are not taken seriously because they don’t come from a powerful source.
Now, I’ll grant that this blog is a modest endeavor, but that’s by design. When I started it in 2005, I wanted to have an outlet where I could write stuff uncorrupted by the desire to make money. I’ve been highly successful in that. In the decade since, and over 6, 000 posts I’ve written, I’ve never accepted any advertising or been paid a dime for this blog.
Is it unfair then to point out that, shortly after the Rolling Stone piece was published, Securro, who lives in the Hamptons and is writing a novel, tweeted out, “#college or #university who needs a #speaker about #rape? http://www.apbspeakers.com/speaker/liz-seccuro … @RollingStone @UVA”.
There—I’ve defended myself.
Seccuro’s major point is this:
Wholesale doubt or dismissal of a rape account because it sounds “too bad to be true” is ridiculous. Is it easier to believe a rape by a single stranger upon a woman in a dark alley? What about marital rape? What if a prostitute is raped? Just how bad was it? We should not have a rape continuum as part of the dialogue, ever.
I agree. All rape is horrific.
And I am not doubting Sabrina Rubin Erdley’s recounting of Jackie’s tale because it sounds “bad.” People do “bad” stuff all the time. I doubt the story in part because, in a Joseph Campbell-like way, a number of the details seem borrowed from works of popular myth, and also because the story contains internal inconsistencies (three hours on broken glass; a pitch black room but the traumatized victim remembers every detail; etc.).
There is nothing inherently wrong for a journalist to be skeptical—respectfully skeptical—about fantastical-sounding stories. People do lie about rape—both “victims” and advocates—and we should not have a truth continuum, ever.
Don’t you think the Times’ Nick Kristof wishes he’d been a little more skeptical about the horrific tale of rape told him by anti-trafficking activist Somaly Mam?
Mostly, I doubt Rolling Stone’s article because it relies on a single anonymous source; because it is uncorroborated by people who were allegedly present at the scene of the crime (or very close); and because the alleged victim apparently would not tell the author the names of the perpetrators she allegedly knew and made the author promise not to contact them. I believe if you are going to publish accusations of something terrible, you’d better make sure you have the facts. And this is not disrespectful to Jackie; I have no idea what transpired between Jackie and Sabrina Rubin Erdley. It is, though, respectful to everyone whose lives might be changed by the publication of such an article.
So I repeat: I have the utmost respect for Liz Securro. And regarding Rolling Stone, I respectfully disagree with her.
55 Responses
12/5/2024 12:28 am
Richard
I read Liz’s piece earlier at TIME. She did take a few cheap shots at you and others who have been brave enough to ask question.
You have been extremely careful in all your stories, always making sure to qualify comments, etc.
It’s really a war zone out there if you dare to ask questions about this story. I’ve been doing it since the first day it was published, all over the net (RS, Cavalier Daily, Wash Po, Slate, Salon, Real Clear Politics, NYT), and I have been attacked everywhere.
Somehow, asking questions makes one an immediate rape apologist. I’ve never seen anything like it, and so I applaud your grit in search of the truth. Cuz I know it isn’t easy.
12/5/2024 12:37 am
And by the way, I sorta know Liz from my days at UVa. And I remember when her story was published in the University Journal anonymously under the name “Kate,” as she mentions it in the TIME piece published tonight.
Her story is and was completely believable in every detail. I remember that the student body was outraged when it was published 27 years ago, and though anonymous, she was supported by essentially everyone.
On the other hand, Jackie’s story, at least as written by Sabrina, just doesn’t seem to add up.
Last point — what about the TIME story yesterday reporting that Jackie still won’t talk to Charlottesville police?
Seems kinda fishy.
12/5/2024 1:55 am
At the end of the awful Rolling Stone piece Jackie claims two more women have come forward to say they were assaulted in that same frat house.
This is meant to confirm Jackie’s story but the author Erdely is unable to speak to them. Do these two women even exist?
12/5/2024 1:57 am
I find these “rebuttals” to your original post in a way just baffling.
Is the hope that these responses will somehow just shut down any further inquiry into whether the RS story is actually true, and so the story will be left standing as is?
Can these authors not realize that, almost certainly, the point of no return has already been passed on the story, and by official or unofficial investigations, the truth will out?
If the story collapses — and at this stage what reasonable person believes it won’t? — how do they imagine their denials and attempts to shut down discussion will look? Doesn’t it make them just a little nervous to be spouting this stuff given all the issues that have been raised with the story? Doesn’t any sense of self-preservation kick in to back off the story until more is known? Why are they so eager to throw themselves in front of the juggernaut of fact?
One does get the impression with these people that they don’t really grasp that there’s a truth and reality out there to which their views had better be aligned. They seem really to believe it’s spin all the way down.
12/5/2024 2:07 am
One can at least understand I guess why activists are so desperate to prop up this story.
If the story collapses, it’s not merely that it’s a story of rape that has been falsified, and doesn’t support the cause as it had seemed to. It becomes a story of a false accusation of rape that has been verified, which is greatly damaging to the cause.
12/5/2024 2:54 am
I’m going to give Ms. Seccuro a break here. When she tried to report her rape to campus officials and police back in 1984, they did not take her seriously at all, and did nothing to arrest the people involved or press charges. It took an outright confession of one of the rapists decades later for justice to be served.
The pendulum, however, has since then swung too far the other way. If this Jackie had a credible story of rape, and reported it, we now have rape kits and police departments which take rape accusations seriously. No one would sit at a desk across from Jackie in 2012 and call her mentally ill for reporting a rape that happened to her.
The rest of argument is that people doubt the story because it is so horrific. That is not the sense I get. People doubt the story because Erdely did not do proper journalistic procedure with all of the involved parties to properly confirm this story.
12/5/2024 3:56 am
“..(I’m not; it’s just a comparison.)…”
The fact that you felt that you needed to add qualification says an awful lot about the motives and, fankly, the intelligence of those who would criticise your rather infuriatingly careful writing.
12/5/2024 7:13 am
“No one would sit at a desk across from Jackie in 2012 and call her mentally ill for reporting a rape that happened to her.”
Hopefully this is the case, the norm. However, in the fairly recent case of Sara Reedy, it certainly was not.
Reedy, a college student working at a convenience store, was raped at gun point. Reedy reported the incident to police. Not only was she not believed; she was later accused of robbing the convenience store herself and of making the story of the rape up. The man who did, in fact, rape Reedy, raped another woman and was arrested for that rape. He then confessed that he had raped Reedy. In all, this man raped ten women. So, going to the police does not always bring justice for the rape victim.
To the larger point about the veracity of Jackie’s claim and objectivity in journalism: calling Jackie’s story a “hoax” without proof that it is, is just as irresponsible as the journalistic misdeeds attributed to Erdely. The truth is that we do not yet know the truth.
I believe Jackie and have from the beginning. The university has a file on Jackie’s case. If Jackie totally fabricated her account of events, we would know it by now.
The university does not stand by Erdely’s article, but the university does stand by Jackie-the administration, students, faculty, and many members of fraternities as well.
I am proud of my alma mater for facing this issue head on and for taking the lead in what has become a national issue. Those politicizing the issue are not from within the university itself. If Erdely took liberties with factual details, she and RS will have to answer for that, not Jackie.
12/5/2024 7:31 am
Like everyone else I respect Ms Seccuro greatly and her experience and speeches helps rape victims tremendously on how to rebuilt your life after a horrific incident.
But what kind of disappoints me is that no one, even herself, learns that the main reason she was not able to get justice immediately was because she did not report to the police. She already reached the hospital but was not attended so she went back. She went to the dean but she didn’t go to the police. However in her case the dean did not tell her she can (or cannot) report it to the police and did grossly mishandled her case. It was understandable in 1984 she thought the university would handle everything including the police.
But that was 30 years ago. According to Jackie, Dean Eramo did offer her to report it to the police but she didn’t take it. So what more can the university do? Unlike Ms Seccuro Jackie only report it after a year later.There is no mishandling of Jackie’s case like her. Just because people are skeptical that this gang rape happens doesn’t mean that we won’t believe other gang rapes like Ms Seccuro’s case.
All of this just reminding me a conversation in the Breitbart’s article about investigating Lena Dunham’s rape story. When the journalist said he wants more info to make sure that ‘Barry’ exists, they said:
“Asking whether or not a victim is telling the truth is irrelevant,” Ms. Hess proclaimed. “It’s just not important if they are telling the truth. If this person had wanted criminal justice they would have pursued it.”
This is the attitude that exists because of all these rape culture hysteria in the universities. It’s twisted beyond belief.
12/5/2024 7:34 am
I’m glad you brought up the Somaly Mam case.
“Even if 90% of Somaly Mam’s story isn’t true, the remaining 10% is so harrowing that it almost doesn’t matter”
(https://mobile.twitter.com/guyraz/status/469837223106707456 )
The defenders of the RS piece seem to be following the same template here. Let’s call it The Truthiness Doctrine.
I’m grateful for your efforts to take on irresponsible journalists and editors in the sane, level-headed, decidedly non-ranty way you do. There are many commentators on both “sides” of this issue who really *are* sliding into partisan rantiness, but I see you as one of the few grown-ups in the room here and I respect you for it.
Thank you, sir.
12/5/2024 7:35 am
Liz Seccuro attempting to make a profit off of these allegations fills me with sadness and rage.
12/5/2024 7:48 am
My problems with the piece are not about Jackie but rather about the rest of the piece. When the parts I know about aren’t true, I tend to doubt the author. The part that really raises my BS meter is the part about Rugby Road, AKA the Good Old Song.
I have heard the Good Old Song sung in public - as a one verse song about “going to get drunk tonight” and “as long as love and liquor last, we’ll drink to U of V.” Nothing about sex, good or bad, and nothing about degrading women.
It’s a tribute to drinking too much and toasting the university - getting liquored up is nothing to be proud of, but people who sing it are singing a song about drinking, not women.
I think, and I am going back to the years of the Cavalier Indoor Outdoor Marching Pep Band and Chowder Society (long story, not relevant here) that I have heard the second verse a few times - the “inch above your knee” verse, with the line about the “bastard Cavalier.” Which, BTW, is considered slightly racy.
Oh, and I should add - the line I have heard in that second verse is not “he’ll take you back to his fraternity and fill you full of beer” - it’s “he’ll fill you full of liquor and he’ll fill you full of beer.”
That’s a small change, but it’s telling. Maybe adding a reference to fraternity served the narrative of the article, but IMHO it is not correct and it is not how people have sung that verse the few times I’ve heard it sung. It’s possible this is an alternate verse, but it sure isn’t the usual one.
That small change, which supports the narrative of the article, also raises my concerns about slant.
Okay, so that’s two verses, neither terribly offensive, and one red flag already.
I have never heard any additional lyrics. I have asked my friends and co-workers who are UVA grads, and I have a fair number. They have never heard any additional lyrics.
I’d also like to point out that the offensive and explicit “verses” that supposedly are part of the song are about sororities on grounds. Guess what? With very limited exceptions, UVA was men-only until the 70’s.
In over 30 years since I first attended UVA, I have NEVER - EVER - heard the other verses. After careful rereading, I find out that these “verses” were written by students, apparently quite recently.
In other words, this is the less well-known and more offensive equivalent to “Jingle bells, Batman smells”, “Be kind to your web footed friends”, and “Comet, it tastes like gasoline.”
If someone put those verses in a serious article about role model hygiene, or migratory duck reproduction, or children eating cleansing products, you’d tend to question their credibility. A lot.
When is the last time you saw an article about John Philip Sousa that claims that his verses to Stars and Stripes Forever includes “for a duck may be somebody’s mother?” And how much would you believe the author if they did?
That’s about how I feel when I see these verses, that I never heard of in many decades of contact with UVA, and that no one else I know has ever heard of, used to support this article. Which is why I doubt the author as a reliable narrator.
It appears these are parody verses pulled off the Internet.
If you pull parody verses off the Internet, and represent them as part of the real song, you’re not reporting reliably.
Especially when you’re using parody verses to represent University culture. If you’re not using the real song, and you’re not using something that the average student has ever heard of, you should say so. She didn’t.
As far as the rest, the Cavalier Daily has a letter from Jackie and others supporting Dean Eramo from what they feel is unfair scapegoating - see http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2014/11/letter-advocating-for-dean-eramo
Can I believe Jackie was raped? Yes. Do I trust the author? Let’s see.
If she reports a two verse song as having 35 verses - when the only source I can find of the 35 verses appear to be parody verses some sexist moron with too much time on their hands made up - then why would I trust her on something I can’t check?
The part I know about is IMHO actively misleading. So my doubt is not about Jackie as much as it is about the author.
12/5/2024 9:26 am
What?, I disagree with you. Whether she makes profit or not, in the end she is a genuine rape victim and if her talk can help rape victims then more power to her. She didn’t ask to be a rape victim and she only started to talk when her rapist was successfully convicted behind the bars making her more credible unlike victims who came forward but never report it to the police.
It’s understandable why Ms Seccuro believed Jackie more than anyone else because her rape is so horrific that she doesn’t understand why would anyone lie about rape. But if she thinks clearly, even back in her case only 3 men were involved, so why would the number of gang rapists increased to 7 when this is the generation of men with most sexual assault awareness and declining rape crimes? I would have believed Jackie if she said 3 or 4, but 7 means this is as horrific as that gang rape in India which caused the victim’s death. No one would have been so nonchalant about her gang rape if it is true.
12/5/2024 9:45 am
Girl,
I agree with you that she deserves to be heard as a victim of a terrible crime and she certainly can help other victims by convincing them to talk to the police.
However, the crime against her was validated by police reports. These allegations are not because Jackie has not gone to the police and, in fact, the police haven’t even begun an investigation to this point. Isn’t that a red flag?
Liz Seccuro is also one of the voices insinuating that Jackie’s rape is an indication of gang rape being systemic to Phi Psi at UVA based on one, potentially two, events over 30 years and I’m guessing 500-600 men passing through as brothers?
She then puts a blanket feeler out to ask colleges to pay her to come speak to capitalize on something that no one can prove at this point.
She would be wise to be telling Jackie to go to the police, not asking for speaking opportunities, and I think that her selfishness and agenda devalue her position in all of this mess.
12/5/2024 10:07 am
I learned some time ago that if people take shots at you and you don’t stand up for yourself, it only emboldens others to do the same.
U.Va. and the fraternity may want to take note.
12/5/2024 10:14 am
UVa77: Thank you for letting me know of Sara Reedy’s harrowing experience. Too add to fairly recent rape cases where it was difficult for justice to be served, the story of Jeffrey Marsalis comes to mind.
For people not familiar with this story, this serial rapist pretended to be someone he was not (either a well-to-do doctor or an astronaut) on online dating sites. He would give his dates drinks tainted with date rape drugs and rape them when they lost consciousness.
While the police, to their credit, did take the rape allegations seriously and arrested this monster, it was very difficult to convict him. One jury acquitted him because the women testifying against him ended up subsequently dating him instead of calling the police (who got their list of victims from Marsalis’ computer). It took a lesbian in Idaho who did the right thing and called the police the next day, getting a “rape kit” performed on her right away, to finally convict him.
Back to Jackie, we may have reason to not believe her. The university has already told us that she appears to have changed some of the details of the story. Cathy Young, writing about Jackie, pointed out that “Notably, in her message to the community [a day or so after the original Rolling Stone article], UVA President Sullivan noted that the Rolling Stone article contained “many details [of the alleged attack] that were previously not disclosed to University officials.”” Unless Jackie contacts the police, we will not have an investigation to find out what really happened. But all of this is diverging from Richard Bradley’s point.
The point Richard Bradley is making is that Elderly did not properly fully investigate this story, and that Richard is being attacked by radical feminists for pointing out the lapses in journalism Elderly made publishing her Rolling Stone article. It’s important that rapists are brought to justice, but publishing stories of lurid gang rapes without carefully checking all relevant sources is not the proper way to improve rape awareness.
12/5/2024 10:26 am
“role model hygiene, or migratory duck reproduction, or children eating cleansing products”
That is PRICELESS. Well done.
12/5/2024 11:00 am
Via Daily Caller today:
“None of those schools felt quite right.” But what’s clear is that it wasn’t the schools that didn’t feel right. Here’s what the same story says Erdely was actually doing at the University of Virginia:
She was rape shopping: going from campus to campus auditioning rape victims, contacting advocacy groups and asking for introductions. But the rapes she found at Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Penn didn’t have the right narrative feel. They were just rapes, and she needed a cover-worthy rape. So she kept shopping until she found someone who would tell her a version of the story she had already decided to tell. She needed a big rape — something splashy, something with wild details and a frat house. She needed a rape that would go viral. You can’t do that with just some regular boring rape.
12/5/2024 11:06 am
The point Richard Bradley is making is that Elderly did not properly fully investigate this story, and that Richard is being attacked by radical feminists for pointing out the lapses in journalism Elderly made publishing her Rolling Stone article.
I think it is fair to say that Richard has also expressed skepticism about the veracity of the rape story. And good on him for that.
12/5/2024 11:13 am
For the commentor regarding the Rugby Road song, in 1978 I learned at least 5 verses of the song: the well-known first two, with no reference to a fraternity; the one about the girl from Agnes Scott, with some small variation from what has been printed; one that started, “We’re Edgar Shannon’s raiders…; and a PG-rated verse denigrating the University of Maryland. My feeling about the references to women was that the song was an expression of desire to find a mythical eager and willing partner, but my interpretation may be mine alone.
Once, in the early 1980’s, a sorority pledge class serenaded our fraternity, and others, and included a versre that had a beginning (from my imperfect memory) something like, “Now you Virginia gentleman, don’t ever turn your head, You’re passing up a coed, who’ll jump right into bed…”
We took at as ribald fun, not an invitation.
12/5/2024 11:20 am
I find it enlightening that Liz Seccuro is citing the similarity between the two rape stories as evidence that “the culture hasn’t changed”.
Did it occur to her that perhaps Jackie’s story was based on hers?
This is how hysterias proceed. The stories are self reinforcing: People base their story on the previously heard. The next person hears the two stories and quickly believes that Something Big Is Going On.
12/5/2024 11:30 am
If you are going to accuse someone of a serious crime you should expect to be questioned about it. It seems like some of these women are offended they are being questioned at all. They don’t seem to have much understanding of the concept of innocent until proven guilty.
12/5/2024 12:49 pm
I would welcome some feedback from Standing Eagle(?) on this discussion thread. I thought he weighed in quite eloquently with the Polanski debacle.
12/5/2024 12:56 pm
Placer,
You’re welcome, and thank you. I did not know about Marsalis.
I understand what you have said and agree with you, to a point. If Erdely has embellished Jackie’s account, or has written outright falsehoods, then she has done a disservice to sexual assault victims, if we, as a society allow that. In other words, even if Erdely’s account is flawed, the problem of sexual assault on campuses still needs to be addressed. That problem does not rise and fall with the potentially flawed reporting of one reporter. I am not justifying the publication of a false account. If Erdely has, indeed, published a false account, then Erdely and Rolling Stone should be taken to task.To date, we do not know this to be a fact, however.
As far as “radical feminists” attacking Mr. Bradley, I find none of that helpful. Liz Seccuro does not appear to me to be a “radical feminist”, but a woman of tremendous courage, as Mr. Bradley points out. I am not even certain what the term “radical feminist” means anymore, to tell you the truth. But for an otherwise erudite writer like Mr. Bradley to make the torturous observation that the phrase “fired the first shot” indicates an “anti male” stereotype, and that Seccuro’s use of the word “rant” is also somehow sexist, shows how far we have to go.
12/5/2024 1:14 pm
Uva77,
Mr Bradley’s observation is correct. Had Mr Bradley is a woman, the word of ‘fired the first shot’ or ‘rant’ would not be used. Ms Seccuro could have merely used the word ‘started’ and ‘blog post/criticism’, but she wants to cast Mr Bradley as some old man who always rant about anything he founds offensive in his own personal blog to discredit his argument. I can see why Mr Bradley found this offensive.
And the problem of sexual assault in campus can be easily fixed by encouraging victims to report to the police and responsible drinking. Women are not sexually assaulted more in campus than anywhere else in America.
12/5/2024 1:14 pm
http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/a-note-to-our-readers-20141205
12/5/2024 1:16 pm
http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/a-note-to-our-readers-20141205
Rolling Stone issues a new statement, this story is about to blow up:
“In the face of new information, there now appear to be discrepancies in Jackie’s account, and we have come to the conclusion that our trust in her was misplaced”
12/5/2024 1:17 pm
So here’s an unintended irony.
“Drew” has presumably graduated. The University cannot punish him; only the criminal justice system can do that.
If, however, Jackie is found to have lied to the University administration, she can be expelled for an Honor Code violation.
Ever more bizarre.
12/5/2024 1:19 pm
RS has issued a statement and apology!
Cant link but easy to find.
Good work Richard!
12/5/2024 1:23 pm
Rolling Stone has just issued a statement that is essentially a retraction
12/5/2024 1:25 pm
I agree that it is a little embarrassing for an “Mr. Bradley to make the tortu[]ous observation that the phrase ‘fired the first shot’ indicates an ‘anti male’ stereotype, and that Seccuro’s use of the word ‘rant’ is also somehow sexist.”
I think I’d call it ‘specious.’
In general my view is that the article was not really any good anyway, and that there are much better examples of administrative failure and bad policy out there. Jackie’s story was used as an attention-getter, and it is a terrible shame that the slipshod presentation now will be used to cast doubt on rape accusers generally.
Nonetheless I think Richard has done the right thing, and the question is just how to refocus the discussion on proper policy in light of the fact that vast, vast majorities of rape accusations are 100% true and that many are nonetheless disbelieved and/or simply not acted on by the institutions that should act on them. This includes the criminal-justice system, which should get many more convictions than it does and should work harder to empower juries to choose between an incoherent male story and a coherent female one. It is not reasonable to doubt a coherent story just because the alleged rapist has thrown up a bunch of possible excuses or muddied the waters.
Lock em up and throw away the key.
12/5/2024 1:26 pm
Holy cow. Richard, well done.
And as they say in the movie: “Now what?”
12/5/2024 1:27 pm
http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/a-note-to-our-readers-20141205
12/5/2024 1:29 pm
Regardless, if the story turns out to be true, partly true, or a whole fabrication I think it’s dangerous anytime people are attacked for even raising questions about an issue. It reminds me of the early stages of the Iraq War. Anyone who questioned the motivations or evidence of the war was deemed as unpatriotic, a traitor, aiding the enemy, etc. Questioning the war translated to not “supporting the troops”. Everyone had to preface their criticisms with “of course I support our brave troops, but”. People who opposed the war were personally attacked and labeled.
Same thing is happening to Richard. He has to preface his comments with “of course, rape is horrible. I don’t think any sane person who questions the RS story is saying rape isn’t a problem or something horrific. He is being labeled as a women hater, conservative, etc just for asking questions in a very cautious and polite manner.
Attacking people for even asking questions is offensive and not healthy for a democratic society.
12/5/2024 1:36 pm
Here, in the Wash. Post story, is your real hero. This is the voice we need:
“Alex Pinkleton, a close friend of Jackie’s who survived a rape and an attempted rape during her first two years on campus, said in an interview that she has had numerous conversations with Jackie in recent days and now feels misled.
“ ‘One of my biggest fears with these inconsistencies emerging is that people will be unwilling to believe survivors in the future,’ Pinkleton said. ‘However, we need to remember that the majority of survivors who come forward are telling the truth.’
“Pinkleton said that she is concerned that sexual assault awareness advocacy groups will suffer as a result of the conflicting details of the Rolling Stone allegations.
“ ‘While the details of this one case may have been misreported, this does not erase the somber truth this article brought to light: Rape is far more prevalent than we realize and it is often misunderstood and mishandled by peers, institutions, and society at large,’ Pinkleton said. ‘We in the advocacy community at U-Va. will continue the work of making this issue accessible to our peers, guiding the conversation and our community into a place where sexual assaults are rare, where reporting processes are clear and adjudication is fair and compassionate.’ ”
Focus on Ms. Pinkleton, not for journalistic reasons but for human ones. This is an incredibly important issue. And Ms. Pinkleton can also talk firsthand about what has gone wrong with Jackie WITHOUT undermining the important work being done to support survivors on campuses everywhere.
12/5/2024 1:37 pm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/u-va-fraternity-to-rebut-claims-of-gang-rape-in-rolling-stone/2014/12/05/5fa5f7d2-7c91-11e4-84d4-7c896b90abdc_story.html
12/5/2024 1:44 pm
Retraction by Rolling Stones…
http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/a-note-to-our-readers-20141205
12/5/2024 1:47 pm
amazing.
Nice work Mr. Bradley
12/5/2024 1:56 pm
It now appears that Rolling Stone has concluded that the alleged victim was not trustworthy and has essentially withdrawn the story. Their reputation and their reporter’s reputations are shot. Wouldn’t it have been better to have done the hard work in the first instance, to have asked the tough questions that a real reporter would ask?
12/5/2024 1:57 pm
Standing Eagle,
Thanks for your input. I appreciate it. It is all somewhat immaterial at the moment with breaking news. I sincerely hope, as I think we all do, that the issue of sexual assault on campuses is not unduly damaged because of this. That would be a true tragedy.
12/5/2024 2:02 pm
Anna Merlan apologizes kinda:
http://jezebel.com/rolling-stone-partially-retracts-uva-story-over-discrep-1667329573/all
12/5/2024 2:03 pm
As I’m sure everyone is soon going to see/ has seen already the Rolling Stone “Note To Our Readers” regarding the article, I think we can all look back and appreciate some levelheaded analysis of a story that never sounded quite right. These questions aren’t always easy to ask, especially regarding such sensitive topics. But the truth is always searching for.
Whatever details come out about the story, I think it is safe to say that there were some factual issues in the article. I hate that this taints the credibility of women who really have been rape victims, because the vast majority of them don’t make up anything. And if nothing else, it has turned attention to and brought up valuable discussion regarding an important topic.
I think that this should also be an illustration to everyone, men and women, about how vulnerable both genders can be to the tragic effects of sexual violence. The sad truth is that far too many women are raped on college campuses every day. On the other side of this same coin, men have almost no way to defend their reputation (or the reputation of their school, fraternity, etc.) against allegations of rape. Whatever happens with this case, it is doubtful that the reputation of UVA, Phi Kappa Psi, and everyone else involved in the story will ever fully recover.
It is a problem that everyone should be invested in, for all of our sakes.
12/5/2024 2:05 pm
Richard-
Thank you.
12/5/2024 2:09 pm
See WP article
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/u-va-fraternity-to-rebut-claims-of-gang-rape-in-rolling-stone/
12/5/2024 2:15 pm
Washington Post reporting that the fraternity will be out with a statement this afternoon confirming no party that night and no member employed as a lifeguard at the pool.
12/5/2024 2:29 pm
Now come the cries of “Fake, but Accurate!”… and how we should forget that we were lied to, forget the whole deception, because the important thing is that it “raised awareness” or some such thing.
Anyone who dares to mention that “yeah, but the RS article and the ‘personal account’ therein was a LIE”, will be shouted down as a ranty old misogynist rape-enabler.
And so it goes. Rinse and repeat. And yes, it WILL happen again if nobody’s interested in taking any lessons from this mess.
12/5/2024 2:35 pm
“Anyone who dares to mention [in response to an unrelated accusation of rape] that ‘yeah, but the RS article and the ‘personal account’ therein was a LIE,’ will be shouted down as a ranty old misogynist.”
And rightfully so.
TN, Your generalizing comment is unjustified and immoral. You are most likely a misogynist, but even if not your behavior is unacceptable.
12/5/2024 5:51 pm
SE proves your point TN.
It is not misogynistic to not like or even fight back against being falsely accused of rape. PERIOD.
To dismiss ever rape questioning or denial as misogynistic is Misandry.
SE this means you.
12/5/2024 7:04 pm
Read better. TN is saying this story is now a defense against ANY charge of rape. Obviously falsehood was and is a defense. The (uncertain in extent, but real) falsehood of Jackie’s story is not relevant to any other accusation — just as the guilt of any other fraternity member is not relevant to an accusation against any fraternity member.
It is almost certainly only misogyny that leads someone to suggest that one woman’s unreliable story calls all women’s stories into legitimate question.
12/5/2024 7:10 pm
“TN is saying this story is now a defense against ANY charge of rape. Obviously falsehood was and is a defense.”
No, I am not.
12/5/2024 7:15 pm
“Anyone who dares to mention that “yeah, but the RS article and the ‘personal account’ therein was a LIE”, will be shouted down as a ranty old misogynist rape-enabler.”
12/5/2024 7:57 pm
Hey, Thin Lizzy. How’s that crow taste about now? Are the boys really back in town/
12/5/2024 9:30 pm
“When you’ve tried hard to be dispassionate, it’s frustrating to have one’s words so blithely demeaned as emotional.”
Richard, that’s what’s known as “projection.”
Miz Seccuro is the emotional one.
12/6/2024 9:07 am
Richard:
Bravo. Now stop trying to kiss up/stroke the very people who were getting ready to eat you alive.
12/6/2024 11:17 am
Richard: Thanks for being the lone voice willing to question Erdely’s journalism while knowing the maelstrom of personal and professional insults you would endure. An amazing institution with its share of high profile issues in the past (Operation Equinox, Yeardley Love, etc.), the reported decline in culture and decency of the student body just didn’t compute based not only on feedback from current students and recent grads, but also my strong recollection of how many outstanding people I encountered over my four years at UVA. Every school can benefit from sexual assault awareness, but painting the UVA Greek system with the same brush as used to report the gang rape culture of Pakistan for the sake of selling magazines is journalistic malpractice.
The administration has long wanted to disband the Greek system at UVA. Not allowing a good (manufactured) crisis go to waste, the UVA President is striking while the iron is hot with this email distributed this morning:
To the University community:
I’m sure many of you are aware by now of today’s reports from the Washington Post and the statement from Rolling Stone magazine. While all of us who care about the University of Virginia are upset by the Rolling Stone story, I write now with a different message.
Over the past two weeks, our community has been more focused than ever on one of the most difficult and critical issues facing higher education today: sexual violence on college campuses. Today’s news must not alter this focus. Here at U.Va., the safety of our students must continue to be our top priority, for all students, and especially for survivors of sexual assault.
We will continue to take a hard look at our practices, policies, and procedures, and continue to dedicate ourselves to becoming a model institution in our educational programming, in the character of our student culture, and in our care for those who are victims.
Now is the time for us to come together as a community to lead the way on this critical issue.
Very truly yours,
Teresa A. Sullivan
President