Rolling Stone Hedges Its Bets
Posted on December 3rd, 2014 in Uncategorized | 113 Comments »
Rather than answer questions about its UVA rape story, Rolling Stone has begun issuing a blanket statement from its PR person. (I think it was first published by Erik Wemple in this excellent Washington Post column, “Rolling Stone Whiffs on Reported Rape.”)
The Rolling Stone statement is this:
The story we published was one woman’s account of a sexual assault at a UVA fraternity in October 2012* – and the subsequent ordeal she experienced at the hands of University administrators in her attempts to work her way through the trauma of that evening. The indifference with which her complaint was met was, we discovered, sadly consistent with the experience of many other UVA women who have tried to report such assaults. Through our extensive reporting and fact–checking, we found Jackie to be entirely credible and courageous and we are proud to have given her disturbing story the attention it deserves.
(Rolling Stone happened to get the date wrong in this version, which I guess wasn’t fact-checked. The alleged rape happened in September 2012, not October.)
This is a crucial statement in what it says—and what it does not say.
It does not say, “We stand by our story 100 percent.” It does not say, “Jackie’s story is true.”
It says, “We found Jackie to be entirely credible and courageous, and we are proud to have given her disturbing story the attention it deserves.”
This is sleight of hand. Rolling Stone is shifting the discussion away from errors it might have made in its reporting, edition, fact-checking and editorial judgment—away, in other words, from its own responsibility—onto Jackie.
This is “her” story. It is “one woman’s account”a characterization which absolves the magazine for its failure to corroborate that account. Rolling Stone found her to be “entirely credible”—a word which is subtly different than, say, “truthful.”
In other words: This is all on Jackie. Not us, for failing to corroborate her story.
But I think the language that Rolling Stone uses, which must have been very carefully chosen and lawyered, is significant. Jackie’s alleged gang rape is not a “tragic event” or a “horrific crime.” It is a “disturbing story.”
And because it is a disturbing story, it doesn’t really matter whether it’s true or not—it deserves attention.
That, anyway, is the implication.
But there’s also a tautology here. Rolling Stone cites the “subsequent ordeal she experienced at the hands of University administrators in her attempts to work her way through the trauma of the evening.”
Note that Rolling Stone does not say “the trauma of the gang rape,” but “the trauma of the evening”—as if it’s really not so sure anymore what happened that night, and so uses less specific language. “Work her way through”—what exactly does that mean? It sounds like a throwaway phrase; I guarantee you it is not.
So here’s a question: If Rolling Stone, after all the effort—a reporter, editors, fact-checkers, lawyers—it put into publishing this story, can not confirm its veracity, is it so surprising that the University of Virginia also seems to have had problems?
Maybe there are reasons for that other than ineptitude, hostility, sexism or a cover-your-ass mentality on the part of U.Va. administrators.
Here is the problem that Rolling Stone has: The magazine clearly has lost confidence that it knows what happened that night—despite the fact that it published a chillingly specific account of a gang rape. And it can not re-report the story now. What’s done is done.
Also, it wants to put the onus of responsibility on Jackie, without looking like it is discrediting her. The magazine is carefully distancing itself from its primary source, but doing so in a way that it hopes no one will notice.
Nor will Rolling Stone simply admit that it screwed up.
And so it is using carefully crafted language to frame Jackie’s story as significant whether it’s true or not; the really important thing is how the University responded to it.
Which is a morally reprehensible argument.
I’ve gotta tell you—I hate this. It’s so unfortunate, so messy, and there’s no reason for it. You could have written this article in a less sensational, more responsible way simply by sticking to things that you could confirm.
I have sympathy for Jackie, whose life must be hellish right now. (Unless she made the whole thing up, but—to use a phrase for which I’ve been criticized a lot recently—that doesn’t feel right to me.)
Mostly, I feel deep disappointment in Rolling Stone. They dodged responsibility with Stephen Glass, and they’re doing the exact same thing now. They can not admit that they erred, and so they are hiding behind a PR person. Where, for example, is the editor of Rolling Stone, who bears the ultimate responsibility for publishing this piece before it was ready to be published?
And, oh, by the way, here’s a fun fact: When I was a college senior, I won Rolling Stone’s College Journalism Award—I don’t think it exists anymore—for an article I wrote about AIDS, and actually later wrote an investigative piece for the magazine. They fact-checked the hell out of it. But that was a long time ago.
113 Responses
12/3/2024 12:41 pm
“The indifference with which her complaint was met was, we discovered, sadly consistent with the experience of many other UVA women who have tried to report such assaults.”
Huh? Who have *tried* to report such assaults? What does that mean? In what sense did they try and how did they fail and what was UVa’s responsibility for such alleged failures?
And really, UVa was ‘indifferent’? What evidence is there for that?
“So here’s a question: If Rolling Stone, after all the effort—a reporter, editors, fact-checkers, lawyers—can not verify this story, is it so surprising that the University of Virginia also seems to have had problems?”
Exactly, especially if Jackie did not want to name names or file a complaint.
It seems that what the Rolling Stone author wanted the UVa to have done is put pressure on Jackie to go to the police or for them to go to the police themselves (like they’ve done now), even though that would have gone against Jackie’s wishes (if I understand correctly). But if they had done that, I’m sure that a lot of people would have blamed UVa for putting such pressure on Jackie.
I simply don’t understand what UVa could have done otherwise that would have satisfied its critics.
12/3/2024 1:01 pm
Richard,
I respect and appreciate your work on this but I think some of your writing here betrays the same biases that led you to believe the story in the first place.
“I have a lot of sympathy for Jackie, whose life must be hellish right now.”
How much sympathy do you feel for the many, many people whose lives have been turned upside down and reputations tarnished, if not ruined, forever by Jackie’s story? Why no mention of them? (And, really, if we are now being rigorous about facts in this case, on what credible FACTUAL basis is Jackie deserving of our sympathy?)
“(Unless she made the whole thing up from whole cloth, but—to use a phrase for which I’ve been criticized a lot recently—that doesn’t feel right.)”
That’s quite a generous caveat. Jackie must have made up the WHOLE story out of WHOLE cloth for you to withdraw your sympathy and, perhaps, redirect it Rolling Stone’s (and her?)
victims? At what point should Jackie be held accountable?
“Mostly, I feel deep disappointment in Rolling Stone.”
Again, what about THE VICTIMS of Rolling Stone (and possibly of Jackie)?
12/3/2024 1:13 pm
I left in a comment with links to articles backing up my statements at the Erdely post and it’s stuck for now. Ditto at Steve Sailer’s.
I believe Sabrina Erdely fabricated those additonal “Rugby Road” lyrics. The ones that nobody, not the president of the Glee Club and the Virginia Gentlemen, per an article, or any other alumni and students who have left comments in these threads has ever heard of until they read that Rolling Stone article.
That, or she’s the victim of a practical joker.
In addition, before the dam burst, the students profiled have been speaking to anyone who will listen that they were lied about. They even brought up those “Rugby Road” lyrics in a newspaper interview as being unbelievable.
When asked for comment about what the students said, about her reporting and those lyrics, Erdely hit back strongly, even accusing these student activists of being in denial.
Importantly, she brought up why those lyrics were so crucial to the story, but didn’t explain what her source for them was.
12/3/2024 1:18 pm
I’m trying to err on the side of generosity here, Anon. I want to give Jackie the benefit of the doubt until I have reason not to. But I do very much agree with you that this story has caused enormous pain to a lot of people, and that’s one of the reasons why I decided to write about it. If it happened, then so be it, write the story and let the chips fall where they may. But if the story is wrong or untrue-man, you’ve got some karmic bills to pay.
12/3/2024 1:27 pm
Richard-
Just wanted to express my gratitude for your ability to bring these questions to light regarding the journalistic integrity of RS and SRE. I feel this is one of the few places on the web right now that is actually providing intellectual discussion (and not gut reaction shocks, leftist agendas or pure vitriol). I am simply not OK with unverified allegations serving as the catalyst for change, even positive change, as UVA seems to be in the process of.
Admittedly, as a former Phi Psi brother at UVA several years ago (I happened to live in the house shown in all those pictures around the web) I do have a dog in this fight for the truth. I don’t enjoy seeing my fraternity’s reputation destroyed by the allegations. I made some very good friends and had some very good times in that house in my time in Phi Psi. Smart, funny and genuine guys that I still keep in touch with. Even though this story can’t take that away, I do feel helpless at times - some people in the age of pay-per-click “journalism” simply cannot handle rational thought.
Seeing the house vandalized by people who also do not know the truth was especially disheartening.
I can tell you that this story does not represent, in ANY way, what I knew as a brother in this fraternity. We were not forced/told/asked to participate in any type of sexual assault at any point during my four years. I can’t imagine any Phi Psi I knew allowing this story to unfold as it was told in RS. I just can’t. If any of us had walked in on such a scene, the perps would have had their asses kicked by us instantly, followed by the police stepping in to take care of the rest.
I want the truth to come to light as much as anyone - if the RS story is true, bulldoze the house and shut down Phi Psi permanently. Put the criminals in prison and throw away the key - I cannot fathom being “brothers” with people who would commit this type of crime.
I don’t know what kind of legal recourse Phi Psi would have if it turns out to be only partially true (or not true at all). I’m just really disappointed all around in the way this has been handled. We’ll see if the Charlottesville Police can help us all find out what truly happened (if anything).
12/3/2024 1:29 pm
We’re all just waiting.
12/3/2024 1:44 pm
Thanks for your comment, former Phi Psi. Appreciate that.
12/3/2024 1:46 pm
Let me add that Zachary Reid, the president of the Glee club said in his interview (linked post still in moderation) that Sabrina Ederly called and asked him for additional lyrics that she told him she believed existed.
Reid then tells the paper that he was surprised to see additional lyrics show up in the RS article. The paper reached out for comment to other people in the singing group, The Virginia Gentlemen, and they all said the same thing. Everyone says they only heard of the first two. These are the guys who are supposed to be intimately familiar with it.
Sabrina Ederly needs to be asked where they came from. She told a paper that they were a crucial element to her story.
12/3/2024 2:14 pm
Erdely acknowledged that her story showed one side of UVA culture, “but it is the dominant culture,” she said. Which is why she kept hammering on those “Rugby Road” verses.
“That’s what I wanted to address, that the degradation of women is intrinsically woven into the campus, and on every campus, and frankly in our culture,” she said. “If people are getting confused by that, I’m sorry to hear that. It’s another aspect of their denialism.”
from c-ville dot com (sorry, don’t want it to get lost in mod. again
The “they” are students and activists are Emily Renda, Sara Surface, Brian Head, and Alex Pinklton.
Ederly says the culture at UVA is the story, not the rape of Jackie. In her own words, she says this is why she kept hammering on those lyrics. So it is completely fair to ask where those lyrics came from. It is especially fair given that the above students have accused her of lying about them personally and expressed concerns about those lyrics.
Are they an indictment of the school, the product of jokester, or the fabrications of a fabulist?
12/3/2024 3:24 pm
The RS article is a lie, uva was targeted for not having a sufficient gang af radical feminists according to the author. Just pathetic
12/3/2024 3:56 pm
Thanks again for exposing the exposers for what they are — sloppy journalists saddled to a drowning story. Time to cut the billet straps and let the horse sink. Now where does Phi Psi and UVa go to get their reputations back?
12/3/2024 4:05 pm
I’m a lawyer with what I like to think is a pretty acute BS detector. This story smells, for all the reasons mentioned on this site, and more. One thing that jumps out at me is Erdely’s excuse for not interviewing the alleged perps - that she had promised Jackie not to talk to them. That strongly suggests to me that the attackers are figments of Jackie’s imagination, and that Erdely was ok with that.
12/3/2024 4:06 pm
“Unless she made the whole thing up, but—to use a phrase for which I’ve been criticized a lot recently—that doesn’t feel right to me.”
I’m not here to grind any axes or put you on any spots. But I have to wonder just which parts of the story you believe, if you don’t think it’s a complete fabrication.
Do you think there was some kind of bad sexual experience - forced, semi-consensual or perhaps even completely consensual - for Jackie at the frat house, and she embellished it into a violent gang-rape, complete with uncaring friends and a hostile UVA administration?
That seems to be the implication. Or am I completely wrong about your personal opinion of the story?
Again, just asking. I’m not accusing you of anything in any way. I would just appreciate a little more detail on exactly what you might think is true in the story.
12/3/2024 4:07 pm
For what it’s worth, if RS actually did know the names of the accused rapists, it would take all of 5 minutes to track down their email addresses and reach out to them - http://www.virginia.edu/virginia/search/.
12/3/2024 4:11 pm
Casey, I don’t even want to venture a guess. I just want to wait for what the cops say.
12/3/2024 4:13 pm
So SRE made up the Rugby Rd lyrics too? Explains why I never heard any beyond the first verse in the 6 years I spent in C-ville earning 2 degrees. Is there any way to confirm she fabricated the lyrics 100%?
Just heard that SRE told the NPR reporter this am that any criticism of her journalistic integrity is really an attack on Jackie’s credibility.
http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2014/12/03/uva-rape-rolling-stone
I’m inclined to agree with Erdely on this, actually. Yes, Sabrina, it is. Put up or shut up. Jackie cannot hold a whole community hostage with these allegations, then plead “eggshell” status to guard against their investigation. If true, justice must be rendered. If false, enough already.
12/3/2024 4:17 pm
Here is Gawker coping with how the story is unraveling. Notice how they manage to combine acknowledging problems with the journalism with smears of those - Richard Bradley is called disingenuous - who originally pointed out some of these problems.
http://gawker.com/rolling-stone-never-interviewed-uva-frat-bros-accused-o-1666103599/all
“When a young woman says she’s been raped at college, some people—her peers, administrators, and otherwise-disconnected conservative pundits—will go to great lengths not to believe her for various, usually bad reasons. So it’s unfortunate that Rolling Stone’s investigation of rape and its aftermath at the University of Virginia asks the reader to simply believe a woman who says she was violently gang raped by seven fraternity brothers at a party in 2012, because some people don’t want to do that.”
12/3/2024 4:20 pm
Of course a *real* UVA related rape and murder got much less coverage. I guess it just didn’t fit the narrative.
http://hollywoodlife.com/2014/09/23/jesse-matthew-charged-hannah-graham-abduction/
12/3/2024 4:20 pm
I can understand that it may not “feel right” that Jackie simply made this up out of the thin air. But, to me, that seems like the most likely explanation.
The problem is, the story as it stands doesn’t appear to be just a little false — that is, a story with a good deal of truth, but embellished — but rather grossly false. How and why would one go from a plausible story of 1 or even 2 rapists to one of 7 rapists, being egged on by 2 others, and as part of an initiation rite?
If one is willing to take such a huge leap into fantasy, why assume that some truth was the instigation?
My own guess about this is that there’s some kind of Münchausen syndrome going on — it’s about the only thing that would make sense of the sheer quantity of lurid, so obviously contrived details.
I’ve met a couple of individuals who exhibited this syndrome, and this fits right in with their behavior.
12/3/2024 4:24 pm
Since when is it up to UVA to investigate anything? That is not their job. If this wasn’t immediately turned over to law enforcement for investigation, I strongly suspect that it never happened. Otherwise, why should anyone ever attend UVA, and why haven’t their been lawsuits over this?
12/3/2024 4:25 pm
“Casey, I don’t even want to venture a guess. I just want to wait for what the cops say.”
Well, I can understand your reluctance, but we’ll be waiting quite a while for anything from the cops in such a media riot. RS and the author are stonewalling hard, so there’s no information coming from them. Any possible witnesses are probably involved with the cops right now (or soon will be involved), so I don’t think we’ll get much from them, either.
Weird story, in every sense of the phrase.
12/3/2024 4:26 pm
Sorry, that “anonymous” was me, not “Jackie” or anybody else. Forget to put my name on the comment.
12/3/2024 4:29 pm
candid_observer:
I’ve thought the same thing. I’ve seen cases where a young woman had voluntary sexual relations that she later came to regret, then decided to allege that she never consented in the first place. But allegations this shocking, and this lurid, seem to come from the mind of a person who is not well.
12/3/2024 4:30 pm
Female UVA Grad ’86,
The extra versus are real - albiet not commonly sung. They’re probably a relic of the days when UVa was single-sex.
- CS
12/3/2024 4:44 pm
The reason the rolling stone can’t verify the story is because it didn’t happen. The rolling stone is just another LSM rag that doesn’t check facts because it is more interested in the smear. I find it hard to believe people actually read that crappy rag.
12/3/2024 4:44 pm
Dahlia, we knew the second verse lyrics back in my day
12/3/2024 4:52 pm
CS - Thanks. I knew the song dated back to the days of “gentlemen’s Cs”, but I’d never heard more than one or two verses.
Is there a credible source where I can find all 35 verses? Since this is the dominant culture, shouldn’t they be readily available? How was Erdely able to find 35 verses to Rugby Rd, but she couldn’t find Phi Psi? The mind boggles. . .
12/3/2024 5:15 pm
There’s always someone in the friend circle who’s batshit crazy. Often they are kept at a reasonable distance. If you get too close you’ll get sucked into the drama tornado and come out worse off for it. They’ll bleed you dry with requests for money and/or time and inundate you with their paranoid delusional fantasies. These people are mentally ill in some way, but are functional enough that they are rarely treated and diagnosed as such. They just vomit drama everywhere and leave a festering ruinous trail of it wherever they go.
I’m guessing that this is one of those psycho stories that never happened or got totally blown out of proportion. If it were not for a reporter looking for a story I’m guessing it would not have seen national attention. Rather it would have stayed where the rest of these psycho stories linger: tumblr, twitter and the unfortunate circle of friends who are too desperate to find better friends. It is clear that with stories like this, ferguson and whatever the national drama of the day is that the media is little more than a propaganda wing to entertain the proles and steer them in the right direction of what to think.
12/3/2024 6:03 pm
They also shirked responsibility for the false anti-vaccine article they published by RFK Jr. It has been retracted by other publications accompanied by lengthy explanations as to why they are removing that story. Rolling Stone refused.
12/3/2024 6:27 pm
As for Gawker/Jezebel and the rest who unquestionably believe this girl. I get it. Rape was treated 30years ago like the shame belonged to the victim. I was assaulted ( not raped, just pushed against a wall, kissed and groped by a gross co-worker before I could get away) and in the days before sexual harassment, the boss laughed and said I either lived with it or lost my job. I was too naive to understand my rights.
Jackie sounds more like Tania Head, the rich girl from Spain who claimed to be a 9/11 survivor with a dead fiancée. She lived the for 5 years because WHO would make that up? Then she was exposed. Jackie has been talking about her story and volunteering to help victims just like Tania did for 9/11 survivors. Yet Jackie never went to police? This raping is an annual rite of passage at this frat yet, women and other male students have never heard of it and willingly go to these parties?
Hey Gawker, the West Memphis 3 were white Southern men too and the “rape culture” hysteria about male co-eds seems an awful lot like the “satanic ritual” hysteria from the 80s (including all the McMartin type prosecutions) that ruined their lives.
12/3/2024 7:02 pm
Here is the *single most* important article yet published regarding Rubin Erdley’s allegations of gang-rape at UVa:
http://time.com/3616263/uva-rape-investigation/
It appears that despite what *virtually everyone* had assumed, there IS NOT ANY POLICE INVESTIGATION into these extraordinary charges!
This is *incredible* — it beggars belief.
There was a poster yesterday who seemed very intent on having the police contacted — quite as if that person suspected that there was no investigation, despite what the media has been assuring us.
So. What now?
Everyone interested in this case should monitor the *non-investigation* very closely.
Don’t be fooled when sites like Gawker lie about it — claiming, as they do in the conclusion to their latest article: “the police are investigating.”
Because: the police are NOT investigating.
I wonder why?
12/3/2024 7:04 pm
A Cavalier Daily article from 2010 discussing the lyrics of “Rugby Road”:
http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2010/12/from-rugby-road-to-vinegar-hill/
12/3/2024 7:52 pm
Thank you for this well argued piece. In particular, I don’t think RS, or the story supporters, have thought through the very tautology you point out; and I’m not sure you made it as explicit as I think it deserves:
If the rape story’s accuracy is not important because it issue isn’t the rape but rather how UVA responded to it … well, responded to what exactly? The outrage we feel for UVA’s response entirely rests on the existence of the gang rape as described, and particularly on the assumption that the story we got is exactly the story UVA got.
If the story is UVA’s response then we need to know exactly what she told them, in what context, when, and exactly what they did in response, and why. And we need those details confirmed by the person reporting the story to us.
Even if the UVA response is the story then I don’t see how that saves it from a journalistic point-of-view.
12/3/2024 7:57 pm
UVa is already on record saying that the story Jackie told them was not the same as the one told in RS. But specific details are needed here as well.
12/3/2024 7:59 pm
I wish I could insert the clip of Orson Welles clapping from Citizen Kane. That’s how I fell when I read your logical articles. I don’t know what has happened with the media these days, but as you said in your first article, they WANT to believe these stories to be true based on their biases. Erdley went LOOKING for this story, because she THINKS white, southern fraternity men have a higher liklihood to be rapists. So she sensationalized the story to be outraged. And for the record, none of this is to say something didn’t happen. But when she didn’t interview the accused and women who were interviewed for story were “bothered and upset for how she portrayed them”, you know her “journalism” was out of bounds. And unfortunately, that discredits any actual problems (and there are problems) from being taken seriously.
12/3/2024 8:29 pm
“If Rolling Stone, after all the effort—a reporter, editors, fact-checkers, lawyers—it put into publishing this story, can not confirm its veracity, is it so surprising that the University of Virginia also seems to have had problems?”
Here’s a follow-up question: If the whole point of the article-as Erdely claims-is that UVA was deliberately indifferent in responding to Jackie’s story because they should have gone to the cops once they knew about it….then why was it ok for the author to spend months researching “every minutiae” of the story and never go to the police during that time?
Wasn’t a fundamental argument of the article that UVA is wrong to present rape victims with the choice of not prosecuting rapists? Aren’t Erdely and RS, by obeying Jackie’s requests to not actually investigate or corroborate any part of the story, once again allowing a victim to make that exact same choice?
12/3/2024 8:42 pm
Cloudswrest, when I read that story initially it fcking sickened me. And this is a horrible thing to say, but if I had to choose a fate for my daughter - a gang rape at a frat would have been my choice over the drugging, stalking, abduction, and murder that that poor girl went through. I would choose the gang rape for myself if I had to choose.
I wonder if that is my own bigotry in action. I have no problem believing that a black campus worker could ( and did ) drug / stalk and murder hannah graham.
But I do have a problem believing that a pledge class participated in the violent gang rape of a 1st year. You know, if the original story had said she was drugged? Or drunk? I would have believed it. I certainly believed Jamie Lee Jones when she claimed Halliburton/KBR contractors drugged and raped her.
I just need much more proof to believe that a fraternity has institutionalized violent assault and rape as part of their initiation rites.
12/3/2024 8:44 pm
@anon
“…that UVA was deliberately indifferent in responding to Jackie’s story because they should have gone to the cops once they knew about it….”
There was an interesting point in one of the articles that the support structure around rape at UVA was/is not focused around prosecution, but rather around supporting the victim. Not sure if true, but definitely puts a different face on it for me.
12/3/2024 8:58 pm
talk about trivializing rape:
“Helen Benedict, a Columbia University journalism professor who has reported on sexual assault in the military, also defended the story.
‘If a reporter were doing a story about a university accused of failing to address the mugging or robbery of a student, that reporter would not be expected to interview the alleged mugger or robber,’ she said. ‘The piece might have been stronger with more than one source, but exposés of wrongdoing often start with one whistle-blower.'”
12/3/2024 9:10 pm
If a frat was mugging people or committing armed robbery as part of their initiation ritual and the victim could identify at least two of the criminals, a reporter wouldn’t ask for their names and call them?
12/3/2024 10:11 pm
“If a frat was mugging people or committing armed robbery as part of their initiation ritual and the victim could identify at least two of the criminals, a reporter wouldn’t ask for their names and call them?”
Heck, even if the victim(s) could only identify the fraternity and no particular individuals or class of individuals, the reporter would call the fraternity for comment.
12/3/2024 10:14 pm
“Helen Benedict, a Columbia University journalism professor who has reported on sexual assault in the military, also defended the story.
‘If a reporter were doing a story about a university accused of failing to address the mugging or robbery of a student, that reporter would not be expected to interview the alleged mugger or robber,’ she said.”
Oh, really, Ms. Benedikt? The reporter would be allowed to out the alleged mugger in print but not be required get a reaction from him/her?
12/3/2024 10:18 pm
Erdley went LOOKING for this story, because she THINKS white, southern fraternity men have a higher liklihood to be rapists.
Erdley is motivated by spite, hatred, ethnic rivalry against white southern met. This isn’t an honest result of a probability assessment.
12/3/2024 10:21 pm
UVa is already on record saying that the story Jackie told them was not the same as the one told in RS. But specific details are needed here as well.
Surely UVa is restrained by duties of confidentiality toward the student. And even if it wasn’t, imagine the uproar if it released private details about this girl and her trauma.
12/3/2024 10:25 pm
[…] Richard Bradley dissects Rolling Stone’s statement on his Shots in the Dark blog. […]
12/3/2024 10:34 pm
“Since when is it up to UVA to investigate anything? That is not their job. If this wasn’t immediately turned over to law enforcement for investigation, I strongly suspect that it never happened. Otherwise, why should anyone ever attend UVA, and why haven’t their been lawsuits over this?”
Law enforcement certainly needs to be involved. However investigating it is indeed UVA’s job. Whether this story is a fabrication or great embellishment like I think it is, or the truth; the safety of women (and men, people psychopathic enough to do something like this would have to be dangerous in many ways) needs to be the paramount concern of UVA.
You can’t have a potential pack of rapists running around on campus. UVA is obligated to ensure that these men are not preying on anyone else.
12/3/2024 11:00 pm
Surely UVa is restrained by duties of confidentiality toward the student. And even if it wasn’t, imagine the uproar if it released private details about this girl and her trauma.
_____________________________
It’s disingenuous to pretend that the alleged “victim” is not known. Her complete, comprehensive background, must be vetted and released to the public, as well as that of her “friends” and parents.
12/3/2024 11:05 pm
Whether this story is a fabrication or great embellishment like I think it is, or the truth; the safety of women (and men, people psychopathic enough to do something like this would have to be dangerous in many ways) needs to be the paramount concern
Doesn’t the fact that an immediate police investigation is not being called for suggest that even the proponents of the Erdely story-including Erdely herself-don’t deep down believe it?
12/3/2024 11:10 pm
The fact that there is *no police investigation* is staggering.
Everyone interested in this case should press this point on every front. Share the Time article everywhere and demand to know:
If there are violent rapists on the loose at UVa, why aren’t local police investigating?
This is the only question that matters and it will lead us to the truth of this matter, whatever it may be.
12/3/2024 11:12 pm
You can’t have a potential pack of rapists running around on campus. UVA is obligated to ensure that these men are not preying on anyone else.
?????????????????
Crimes on campus happen. Turn over to the cops and let the chips fall.
Frankly, more harm has been done recently by hoaxes perpetrated by narcissist student activists wanting to draw attention to their pet cause. They are like the Maytag repairman, who LOSE THEIR MINDS. If a hoax, this woman should be dealt with extremely harshly (25 to life/psych) for all the unbelievable harm she has caused to so many. If true, death/life in prison for the perps.
Frankly, more harm has been done recently by hoaxes purpotrated
12/3/2024 11:19 pm
“Surely UVa is restrained by duties of confidentiality toward the student. And even if it wasn’t, imagine the uproar if it released private details about this girl and her trauma.”
_____________________________
It’s disingenuous to pretend that the alleged “victim” is not known. Her complete, comprehensive background, must be vetted and released to the public, as well as that of her “friends” and parents.
Your reply appears to be a non sequitur. No one is contending that the victim is not known to the administration. U.Va. is probably legally bound to confidentiality. It also isn’t outside the realm of possibility that part of her contact with the university has included psychological counseling.
12/3/2024 11:30 pm
Your reply appears to be a non sequitur.
++++++++++++++++
Your reply appears to be a non sequitur.
++++++++++++++++
UVA’s duty is to protect the institution. If they know the alleged victim has lied, or has embellished, misrepresented, or exaggerated her story, its duty to the student is forever void.
UVA should then aggressively protect itself, which I’m sure it will.
In the meantime, the alleged victim and activist reporter should be put under a microscope.
12/3/2024 11:36 pm
UVA’s duty is to protect the institution. If they know the alleged victim has lied, or has embellished, misrepresented, or exaggerated her story, its duty to the student is forever void.
They may still have a legal duty to protect her confidences. And as I noted, even if they didn’t, they would have to weigh the risk of seeming insensitive to her if they did release private details.
UVA should then aggressively protect itself, which I’m sure it will.
It should aggressively protect itself, I agree. I hope it does. But I’m not so confident. The early signs aren’t very encouraging are they?
12/4/2024 12:33 am
The Columbia Journalism Review has now published an admonishment of Rolling Stone:
http://www.cjr.org/behind_the_news/rolling_stone_uva_rape.php
Be sure to scroll down to David Cay Johnston’s comment.
12/4/2024 12:47 am
“That’s what I wanted to address, that the degradation of women is intrinsically woven into the campus, and on every campus, and frankly in our culture,” she said. “If people are getting confused by that, I’m sorry to hear that. It’s another aspect of their denialism.”“ - Sabrina Rubin Erdely
Should a reporter be openly this biased while taking on a story of this nature? This sounds less like the words of a reporter and more like something someone with an agenda would say. Reporters should not go into stories with agendas. When my editors felt I had a pre-determined idea where a story would go, they assigned someone else to it.
Erdely comes off in this quote (and others) like a women’s studies professor who was attempting to impose rules on campus regarding male student behavior. Why was she writing this to begin with?
This is starting to look more and more like a concerted effort to remove “guy culture” (and perhaps men themselves) from college campuses. The balance has long since tipped to female and my guess is that’s not enough for the women’s studies crowd — they simply want men out.
12/4/2024 12:51 am
This is starting to look more and more like a concerted effort to remove “guy culture” (and perhaps men themselves) from college campuses.
No, it’s only an effort to remove European-derived men.
12/4/2024 12:53 am
Scathing critique of Rubin Erdely and Rolling Stone in the Columbia Journalism Review. See, especially, the comment from David Cay Johnston.
http://www.cjr.org/behind_the_news/rolling_stone_uva_rape.php
12/4/2024 1:57 am
It is crazy to think that a fraternity with gang rape as an initiation rite could survive unless you adopt the view that all men are potential rapist. The students at UVa are a highly accomplished great group of young men and women. To think that year after year 18 year olds desiring to join a fraternity could be solicited to participate in gang rape to gain membership and that no one would blow the whistle is unbelievable.
Not all young men are potential rapist but not all young women are rape fabricators. I hope to know the truth.
12/4/2024 2:10 am
I was in a fraternity in college (in the state of Virginia). I witnessed a ton of bad, misogynistic behavior. I’m ashamed to say that I had some “brothers” who pressured women inappropriately and perhaps even crossed a line into sexual assault. And I wholeheartedly agree with feminists who say we have a troubling rape culture in many parts of society.
All that said: I don’t know how anyone read that story and believed it to be true. To believe that seven young men are so sick that they’d ritually rape and molest a woman for three hours requires a level of cynicism and misandry that I didn’t think was possible. More than that, though, is the sheer gullibility in thinking that a fraternity could keep institutionalized rape a secret and that Jackie’s friends would dissuade a clearly traumatized and battered woman from seeking medical attention and reporting the crime.
Most troubling of all to me — even more so than the apparent decision not to contact the alleged perpetrators — is the author’s blatant agenda. “I’m going to write about rape at an elite college campuses” is simply not the mentality required of someone looking to unearth the truth. It’s difficult not to conclude that Erdeley entered this story knowing exactly what she wanted to write, found a “victim” willing to share a perfectly horrific anecdote and ran with it.
I really hope the truth comes out. I just don’t know how it will if the police aren’t willing to investigate….
12/4/2024 3:26 am
In other words, they admit it was fiction.
Yeah, I think we knew that.
12/4/2024 4:19 am
Journalism is dead, there is no such thing as a rape culture. Even Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network (RAINN) has spoken against rape culture. Why? Because it is shifting the blame personally on the rapists to the institutions. That is wrong. We don’t collectively punish a group because of the actions of a few. And blaming the culture at a large implies all men are potential rapists that would rape a woman if they had a chance - which is completely untrue because rapists are psychopaths who doesn’t care about the laws. Making more laws about consent and sexual assault won’t stop rapists at all.
What can stop the rapists are increased reporting of rape to police. Instead of all this nonsense of ‘Yes Means Yes’ and kangaroo courts in universities that won’t stop rapists, maybe the knowledge that rape victims are not afraid to report to police might deter a rapist to commit the crime.
12/4/2024 7:55 am
UVA supposedly learned of Jackie’s alleged ordeal seven or eight months after the fact and Rolling Stone accuses UVA of then responding by subjecting Jackie to an “ordeal” of “indifference”. (ponder that)
But many are asking what more does Rolling Stone and its reporter think UVA could have done to respond to Jackie’s complaint, made months after the events?
The answer to that question can be found in what the University in fact did, but in response to the Rolling Stone story.
The proper University response should have been to kill the entire UVA Greek system based on a mere accusation from one freshman woman. Or her magazine.
It is no coincidence that the Greek system is perceived by the left to be an anachronistic bastion of white privilege. That means it must be destroyed. The left’s Long March through society generally, and the academe in particular, continues.
12/4/2024 8:58 am
The real lesson from UVA for all university/college administrators is:
“Never allow yourself to be the senior man or woman with a secret” when an allegation of crime has been brought to your attention. If you do, any delay in calling local police will be at your own peril as well as that of your institution.
Most importantly, NEVER try to play judge, jury, prosecutor, police, or jailer when you think a criminal act has been committed on your campus or by your students & employees. If you do, you can expect to eventually be brought to legal book for your imprudent decisions. Otherwise, good luck.
12/4/2024 9:04 am
@Journalism is dead
And I wholeheartedly agree with feminists who say we have a troubling rape culture in many parts of society.
What “parts of society” are you talking about and what evidence do you have that they have a “rape culture”?
12/4/2024 9:21 am
A Pi Psi in alcohol recovery confessed rape to a UVa freshman 22 years after the fact, and got a 10 year sentence in 2006. She wrote a book on it, stating t it came out that 3 guys had raped her after she drank punch they called “the house special.”
She’s quoted in RS. Her fact pattern raises 2 possibilities:
1) Jackie knew of it, figured she could build on it credibly
2) Where 3 brothers (according to one who confessed) went of the rails in ’84, 7 did in ’12
The first is plausible.
The second only strikes me a plausible if a brother trolled pledges into thinking that all the old bros had raped, so it’s a norm. That would only need only 1 malicious guy and 7 intimidated pledges to put that in motion. It’s the kind of thing that could start off as a joke…tasking one pledge to go find a girl for gang rape and keeping other pledges waiting in the dark with the expectation of the lead guy that it won’t happen, and he’s just trolling all the pledges. Then the girl appears and the thing takes a life of it’s own.
Why do I think this? My own follies.
When I was a kid, 4 of us stole cases of wine from a neighbor’s garage. Years later, I learned one of our guys had a klepto strain. That day, the other 3 of us were suggestible and did something out of character. I was last to run in there, and they had to coax me a bit. But.. I sure as hell did it.
At age 16, had two hilarious buddies, and they started joking about giving spanish flies to 3 girls we liked. Amid the laughs, our fool minds didn’t see this could be crushing for them. We only thought as far as their being game for sex. Thank God, a guy’s outreach to his buddy for Spanish flies led the local druggie to just shake his head in disbelief at our stupidity. And our criminal fever passed.
I went to Ivy league college, and am known as someone who combats meanness. Had my dumbest moments broken through as public crime, life would have been quite different.
For sure, there’s a liberal desire to reprogram men. But from my follies, as a socially conscious guy who went to elite schools, I can see realistic ways this could have happened.
12/4/2024 9:44 am
Richard,
I’d like to thank you for the two excellent articles you’ve written about this case. You’re an example of the journalistic profession at its best, asking the questions that the rest of the media won’t ask.
When I read the Rolling Stone article, it struck me as a likely fake as well, for the reasons you noted and for others. I’ve gathered together the evidence, as I see it, here:
http://theblogthatwasthursday.wordpress.com/2014/12/02/hoax-evidence/
http://theblogthatwasthursday.wordpress.com/2014/12/04/844/
I did not attend UVA, but I lived near Charlottesville for many years. I had many friends among the students and faculty. If it turns out that Rolling Stone slandered the university and the fraternity, I will be quite angry, to put it mildly.
12/4/2024 9:47 am
Here’s the thing- there is an entirely different way to read this. That Jackie is mentally disturbed, perhaps in general, perhaps by something that happened that night. If thats the case she could be very convincing, but telling a story that is untrue in part or in whole.
Rolling Stone never seemed to consider that when they ran this story.
Consider the reaction of her friends. From Jackie’s telling, both those that immediately picked her up and those that she told the story to later seemed entirely unresponsive and selfish in their reactions. Thats one way to read it. Another is that the three that picked her up immediately realized that what Jackie was telling them didnt match what they were seeing. She, perhaps, wasnt covered in blood, disheveled, perhaps couldnt have been where she said she was. In that case their reactions can be read as sympathy for a disturbed person. Perhaps they had some history with her that would indicate this was likely not a true story. Perhaps she had that reputation.
The sad thing is even if this outlandish ritualized gang rape didnt happen, Jackie could well have been raped all the same, or otherwise assaulted. Perhaps in that frat, perhaps elsewhere. Without a shred of outside corroboration, there just is no way to know. One thing is certain- if anybody on that campus REALLY believes this story, they sure aren’t acting like it. If there is an active rape gang running around that campus, it should by everyones absolute focus to shut it down and get those monsters in prison before they rape again. Nobody seems real concerned with that, which probably tells you a lot.
12/4/2024 10:01 am
“Drew” — Phi Kappa Psi, former lifeguard, class of 2014, name and (presumably) hometown known to Jackie — should be easy to find and bring in for questioning.
The fact that — two weeks after the story broke — this hasn’t happened indicates that something is very wrong with this story.
“Jackie” is supposedly talking to the Washington Post. We will see what she has to say.
12/4/2024 10:18 am
Rolling Stone is hedging its bets for the obvious reason that escapes this analysis, since it is never mentioned: they have a hellacious libel lawsuit hanging over their heads.
12/4/2024 10:37 am
My initial inclination was to disbelieve some of the details of the story, but it makes me sad to see the eagerness in these comments to blame or belittle the alleged victim.
I graduated from U.Va. I lived in a fraternity house while I was there. I knew some Phi Psi brothers, who seemed like good guys.
But I know these things: girls were raped at U.Va. when I was a student there; at least one group of guys (football players) shamed the victim of a rape, at the behest of the rapist; during my time at the University, there was a well-known accusation of rape at a fraternity house, without a publicly-reported disposition.
The truth of the allegations in the RS article will hopefully be known at some point. But I, for one, wish that people would give the alleged victim the benefit of the doubt in the interim.
12/4/2024 10:49 am
Unless Jackie comes forward, files a criminal complaint and names her assailant and those he led, we won’t know much more than we do now.
12/4/2024 10:57 am
Some of the reaction from the UVa community seems unbelievable.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2014/12/04/the_u-va_rape_case_and_feminist_confusion___124845.html
An organized “Slut Walk” and a faculty lead “Take Back the Party” rally?
Really? A brutal gang rape and this is your response?
Perhaps those organizing these type of activities know more about the truth than what is public.
12/4/2024 11:03 am
I found the source for the new “Rugby Road” lyrics
But first, here is what Sabrina Erdely said about “Rugby Road” in her Rolling Stone article:
***“In 2010, “Rugby Road” was banned from football games – despite a petition calling it “an integral part” of UVA culture. But Wahoos fearing the loss of tradition can take heart that “Rugby Road” verses are still performed on campus by UVA’s oldest a cappella group, the Virginia Gentlemen.***
Oh, are they? Those three new verses? Really? 😉
I’ve pointed out upthread that the president of the Glee Club, Zachary Reid, and the Virginia Gentlemen are on record as saying they were shocked to see those verses as they were unaware of their existence. Nobody else has been found who has ever heard of them.
People, you may not see them performed, but let me direct you, especially you lovers of “tradition” to a reader-submitted forum at reocities dot com where they have a page for “Rugby Road: Virginia’s Bawdy Drinking Song, for Those Times When You’re Feeling a Little Unseemly”.
Submitted by Stephen E Cox, Jr., no relation given to UVA, and the first new verse in the RS article:
“A hundred Delta Gammas, a thousand AZDs
Ten thousand Pi Phi bitches who get down on their knees
But the ones that we hold true, the ones that we hold dear
Are the ones who stay up late at night, and take it in the rear.”
Submitted by by John McCanless SEAS 94, GEAS 96, the second new verse in the RS article:
“All the first-year women are morally uptight.
They’ll never do a single thing unless they know it’s right.
But then they come to Rugby Road and soon they’ve seen the light.
And you never know how many men they’ll bring home every night.”
Submitted by Elmer Boyce, Pep Band Alum, the final new verse in the RS article:
“She’s a helluva twat from Agnes Scott, she’ll fuck for 50 cents.
She’ll lay her ass upon the grass, her panties on the fence.
You supply the liquor, and she’ll supply the lay.
And if you can’t get it up, you sunuva bitch, you’re not from UVA.”
________________
In addition, Erdely mentions that the song had expanded to 35 verses. An old Washinton Post article about the song said that a feminist group told the writer there were 35 verses, but what they were and the source was not given. Surely is where Erdely’s “35 verses” came from.
12/4/2024 11:04 am
Well, indeed, there may be 35 verses to Rugby Road:
http://reocities.com/RodeoDrive/2693/drink.html
But their existence on an obscure website does not mean they are part of the culture - after all, some websites identify 13 verses of Amazing Grace, although most are apocryphal. The burning question I have of SRE is “how many times have you heard any of the verses sung in Charlottesville?” and “how many times did you hear the more obscure verses being sung?”
To hear her writings, the national audience would think SRE has he finger on the pulse of UVA culture. The shame is that only a tiny percentage possesses the knowledge to identify her as ill-informed.
And I actually believe Jackie, but I am terribly frustrated - she would not go to the hospital after her rape, would not make a police report, would not initiate the UVA disciplinary process. But comment to the national press? Even taking her likely trauma into account, her behavior is craven and a cheap shot.
And does SRE have some bias? I think so. I submit that she seethes at how UVA is a bit conformist to the point of not having slutwalks, and takes certain delight in trying to dish up some humble pie.
12/4/2024 11:20 am
Can someone please explain the fact that still to date “Jackie” has not filed charges?…..the reasoning that she doesnt want publicity or to re-live the incident is obviously out the window now…..If she would file charges, it would certainly give the C’ville police alot more power in investigating this…..someone who knows the Va Criminal Code can help me with the details……
12/4/2024 11:21 am
The whole story would be a lot more credible if “Jackie”, on the day the RS article came out, had filed a complaint with the C’ville police….it may still be absolutely true, but 90% of the skepticism (which is clearly warranted because of the holes and inconsistencies in the article) would never have appeared if she had made the sensible decision to take it to the Police and push the investigation forward…..why did it take Sullivan’s initiative to ask the police to investigate a 2 year old incident when there is no complaint?….failure to make that move (go to the Police at the dropping of the RS article) is very troubling and invites even more skepticism
12/4/2024 11:22 am
I think EVERYONE (the University administration, students, faculty, fraternities, accused) deserves an answer to this simple question…..failure to even answer the question is irresponsible in light of the firestorm the accusations have caused
12/4/2024 11:27 am
@ wahoo
But I know these things: girls were raped at U.Va. when I was a student there
How many rapes do you know of? What evidence do you have? Eyewitness, confidant of victim, acquaintance of perp, court case?
12/4/2024 11:34 am
82 Wahoo
“But I know these things: girls were raped at U.Va. when I was a student there; at least one group of guys (football players) shamed the victim of a rape, at the behest of the rapist; during my time at the University, there was a well-known accusation of rape at a fraternity house, without a publicly-reported disposition.
The truth of the allegations in the RS article will hopefully be known at some point. But I, for one, wish that people would give the alleged victim the benefit of the doubt in the interim.”
See, here’s the problem. Without a finding of fact, all these things you cite are rumours. Hearsay. Throughout this whole sorry episode, I have heard countless people assert that they “know” something, when the truth is all that happened is they heard someone assert it. Rumors have an astonishing tendency to take on a life of their own.
Regarding your second point: Everyone, including me, would love to believe the story as written. Because, if true, nine sociopathic men can be taken off the streets.
Unfortunately, “believe the victim” has gotten completely out of hand. This story has already damaged many, many people. Believing the victim sounds compassionate, but it ignores the fact that people are being hurt in the interim, and if this story is found to be false, society owes the real victims a great big apology.
12/4/2024 11:42 am
Get off of Jackie. Get off rape.
The entire article is a lie. The work of a fabulist who knows how to mix truth with lies, not the work of an inept reporter.
We don’t know where “Jackie” begins and Sabrina Ederly begins, so going on and on about the rape is to be spinning your wheels.
I JUST PROVED THAT EVERYTHING EDERLY SAID ABOUT RUGBY ROAD IS A WILLFULL AND MALICIOUS LIE.
**There are more lies waiting to be uncovered if one will just scratch, just a little.**
12/4/2024 11:52 am
I spent six years at UVA and remain actively involved with the school and I have never heard of or ever seen the lyrics to “Rugby Road”. To call this song an “integral part” of UVA culture is laughable. This song is not considered taboo or no longer socially acceptable it’s not considered at all. No one knows it exists. And banned from football games? Let me get this straight, first and goal from the six and suddenly the student body rises as one to belt out, “A hundred Delta Gammas, a thousand AZDs, ten thousand Pi Phi bitches who get down on their knees…”? Maybe I was sitting in the wrong student section.
12/4/2024 11:58 am
91uvagrad,
The burning question you ask has already been answered.
The Glee Club and the Virginia Gentlemen were interviewed about it and they all said they had never heard of those verses before. They are supposedly the singers of them!
Nobody has been found to date that is aware of them.
Even the rape activists and feminists on campus who were profiled in the RS article are on record as warning Ederly that students and alumni wouldn’t be familiar with them (unbelievable lyrics, were their words), but she lashed back at them, in print, and called the lyrics integral to her story and accused them of being in denial about what was really at stake.
She lifted those verses, the very worst ones on that page, and tried to pass them off as ones sung in public and part of a “tradition” that many were fighting for.
SHE LIED.
12/4/2024 12:17 pm
’82 Wahoo
Thank-you.
12/4/2024 12:30 pm
Dahlia,
I think we are 98% in agreement.
My main thesis is that SRE somehow thinks she has a keen enough understanding about the culture at UVA to report it in the national press. She does not.
But it aggravates me that only a tiny minority have the knowledge which exposes her ignorance. An RS reader in Dubuque would never know the difference and herSRE’s claims will go largely unchallenged.
And as much as I believe Jackie exists and may be telling the truth, one datapoint amongst 20,000 students does not identify a culture. Nor do the other anecdotes - some 10 years old provide sufficient support for a claim of what the culture is. She simply jumps to conclusions, hamming up a compelling narrative with irrelevant facts. A sloppy job.
12/4/2024 12:33 pm
Richard:
Thanks for both your honesty in tackling this as well as your restraint. The former is always essential and while the latter is optional, in this case it is more than called for.
I don’t get a lot about this, obviously, and it will take time for a fuller story to emerge. But one thing in particular rankles, and it has to do with the conflation of forcible, clearly against-the-law rape with other forms of sexual bad behavior common on campuses. I agree with those questioning the 1 in 5 statistic, but surely some of the answer to that conundrum lies in a kind of dumbing down of the word “rape” to fit campus convention. It is almost as though, once dumbed down, lots of folks lose the ability to make a fair differentiation between a forcible rape of the type described in the article and a booze he-said she-said.
No doubt Nicole Eramo has had to deal a lot with the latter, boozy kind. But how often has she had to deal with an event which, if true, would clearly be a criminal act of the first order, complete with jail time? My guess: not often, if at all.
But surely she is sufficiently a professional to grasp the distinction between rape lite (where maybe expulsion is not always the right answer) and heinous criminal act. I don’t believe we have yet heard from Dean Eramo on this crucial question of what her understanding was of the act described by Jackie. If she ducked on this, shame on her and she should be ousted. But something tells me this could not be the case. Kids may have lost the ability to differentiate between different forms of “assault” but I doubt she would have.
12/4/2024 12:35 pm
82 Wahoo,
I’ll give Jackie the benefit of the doubt. She is not on trial here - rather RS and SRE are.
But assuming the truth of Jackie’s story, the article comes to completely unwarranted conclusions. Any premise that SRE has adequate familiarity with UVA culture is ill founded, and RS should have seen through it. Big time.
12/4/2024 1:08 pm
Here are the sources and quotes which I’ve alluded to as I was afraid of the comment being locked up for hours BOTH ARTICLES ARE IMPORTANT IN THEIR ENTIRETY, HOWEVER:
Importance of lyrics/ Campus activists distressed at their portrayal
http://www.c-ville.com/uva-activists-author-rolling-stone-article-speak/#.VICfj0npbiM
“Surface also accurately predicted people would pounce on one detail that didn’t ring true to many current and former students: the claim that the offensive old frat song “Rugby Road,” which includes verses that praise binge drinking and girls who will “fuck for 50 cents,” was still an “integral part” of UVA culture.”
and
Erdely acknowledged that her story showed one side of UVA culture, “but it is the dominant culture,” she said. Which is why she kept hammering on those “Rugby Road” verses.
“That’s what I wanted to address, that the degradation of women is intrinsically woven into the campus, and on every campus, and frankly in our culture,” she said. “If people are getting confused by that, I’m sorry to hear that. It’s another aspect of their denialism.”
—————————
Ignorance of additional lyrics by Glee Club and Virginia Gentlemen presidents and the groups as well as Erdely’s conversation with the G.C. president about additional lyrics
http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2014/11/university-glee-club-temporarily-retires-rugby-road:
“I was surprised it was so long,” [Rohan] Desphande (president of the Virginia Gentlemen) said on the number of verses referenced in the Rolling Stone article. He said he spoke with some Virginia Gentlemen alumni who “were shocked.”
“[They] thought it was only two verses long,” he said.
and
“The Glee Club has only ever sung the first two verses,” [Zachary] Seid (president of the Glee Club) said. “The Rolling Stone article was the first time I’d ever heard of the others.”
and
Seid said Erdely contacted him in September to ask for the whole song, which she believed to be more than just the first two verses.
Finally, the source of the lifted verses, penned by three different men and the worst ones on the site, a reader-submitted site:
http://reocities.com/RodeoDrive/2693/drink.html
12/4/2024 1:31 pm
Obviously, under the direction of counsel, the 2012 Phi Psi brothers are not commenting on the case. I know many of the 2012 brothers. If they could talk this is how they would respond to specific facts cited in the article
1) (Article excerpt: “Drew was a good-looking junior – or in UVA third-year…Jackie and Drew had met while working lifeguard shifts together at the university pool”).
Real Facts: It is my understanding that during the fall of 2012 there was NO third year Phi Psi brother, or pledges, that worked at the AFC or university pool.
2) (Article excerpt: “When did it happen to you?” Emily Renda asked Jackie as they sat for coffee at the outdoor Downtown Mall in the fall of 2013. “September 28th,” Jackie whispered”).
Real Facts: It is my understanding that the Phi Psi fraternity had neither a dated function nor a house party on September 28, 2012…. nor during Saturday September 29th… nor Sunday September 30th.
3) (Article except: “ Then they egged him on: “Don’t you want to be a brother?” “We all had to do it, so you do, too.”)
Real Facts: All of the UVA fraternity pledging occurs in the second semester, starting in January. Phi Psi did not have a 2012 fall pledge class.
4) (Article excerpt: “Jackie had been floored by Drew’s invitation to dinner, followed by a “date function” at his fraternity…. Sipping from a plastic cup, Jackie grimaced, then discreetly spilled her spiked punch onto the sludgy fraternity-house floor. The University of Virginia freshman wasn’t a drinker….. She remembers every moment of the next three hours of agony, during which, she says, seven men took turns raping her, while two more – her date, Drew, and another man – gave instruction and encouragement…. When Jackie came to, she was alone. It was after 3 a.m. She painfully rose from the floor and ran shoeless from the room. She emerged to discover the Phi Psi party still surreally under way”).
Real Facts: Based on the specific time line suggested by the four Rolling Stone excerpts above, and the fact that a typical fraternity “date function” starts at 10PM, we can infer that between the hours of 11 and midnight (1 to 2 hours after the date function started), Jackie was led upstairs by Drew to be gang raped. Since a dated function means that all fraternity brothers bring dates, we can also infer that eight fraternity brothers left their eight dates alone downstairs in the fraternity chapter room for a three hour time period while they went upstairs and participated in the gang rape. We can also infer that the alleged brothers that participated in the gang rape ultimately returned to the party (and their dates) by 3PM to join the party that was still surreally underway——-This just could not have happened!
5) (Article excerpt: “Drew ushered Jackie into a bedroom, shutting the door behind them. The room was pitch-black inside.”)
The Phi Psi bedrooms are very small, most less than 10 feet by 10 feet. The hallway lights in the fraternity are on 24/7. A single open doorway allows visibility into these small rooms via the hallway lights alone. Could the eight fraternity brothers alleged to be involved in the gang rape have all left their dates and the party on the first floor so they could hide in and upstairs bedroom without Jackie seeing them or knowing they were there. And how could she not have seen them from the hallway or before she entered the bedroom … as alleged in the article?
6) (Article excerpt: “She remembers how the spectators swigged beers, and how they called each other nicknames like Armpit and Blanket.”)
Real Facts: It is my understanding the no 2012 Phi Psi brother had a nickname of Armpit or Blanket.
7) Its is my understanding that no 2012 Phi Psi brother that lived in the fraternity house had a glass table in his room
The entire story is a fabrication!
12/4/2024 5:39 pm
To the poster questioning my knowledge of events occuring during my years at U.Va., I will clarify.
I was “confidant” to two women who were raped at U.Va. One was the victim of the football player. I did hear, first hand, his teammates disparage her, and repeat his lies about her. I did witness, first hand, what that cost her. You can say I can’t prove she was raped, which is true. But as a person with a passing familiarity with proving matters in court, let me say that I found the evidence compelling at the time, and if I were his juror I would have voted to convict. The experience of my second friend was corroborated by a friend of the rapist. His confession, though hearsay, would be admissable under one or more exceptions to the rule (as an admission, or at least a statement against interest). As for the much-discussed accusation of rape at a fraternity, it was common knowledge (the accusation) in the University community at the time. There was no publicly-disclosed disposition, so the information vacuum was filled with rumors of a financial settlement. I did have a conversation with one of the accused’s fraternity brothers, shortly after the accusation became widely-know. He did not defend the alleged perpetrator - he believed the accusation was true.
I heard stories of other sexual assaults, from girlfriends at the time and from my wife, who was a student at a women’s college. Again, the indicia of credibility were pretty persuasive.
Finally, I would find it statistically improbable that no one was raped at U.Va. during the years I was a student there, given the number of reasonably credible accusations.
When I suggested that the victim be given the benefit of the doubt, I was reacting, emotionally, to comments suggesting that she is mentally ill, or motivated to fabricate with evil intent, which align pretty well with the lies the football players told about the victim I knew.
I am inclined to doubt certain details of “Jackie’s” story, but I will await better investigation and reporting of the facts before believing it is a complete fabrication.
12/4/2024 5:49 pm
A confession is not hearsay. Evid. R. 801(d)(2)(A).
I almost ALWAYS believe the accuser, and have so far in my life ALWAYS been vindicated by further factual investigations.
12/4/2024 7:41 pm
[…] Stone story. “I’m not sure that this gang rape actually happened,” he wrote in a blog post, using brilliant plagiarist Stephen Glass (whom he edited, and who duped him) as a comparison base […]
12/4/2024 7:41 pm
[…] Stone story. “I’m not sure that this gang rape actually happened,” he wrote in a blog post, using brilliant plagiarist Stephen Glass (whom he edited, and who duped him) as a comparison base […]
12/4/2024 11:04 pm
What does the Supreme Court have to say about single-source stories? As the little statuette on my father’s desk said, “Sue the Bastards.”
Curtis Publishing Co. v. Butts, 388 U.S. 130 (1967)
12/5/2024 1:14 am
Interesting that a long article detailing a horrific, violent gang rape redacts the names of the victim, the rapists, and the victim’s friends — in short, every important actor involved in the brutal gang rape and its aftermath — yet reveals the name of the Frat in the first paragraph. I wonder why that is?
12/5/2024 6:49 am
“yet reveals the name of the Frat in the first paragraph. I wonder why that is?”
if you were looking to write a story about “a culture of rape” at an “elite institution” and you walked down Rugby Road having Googled “rape at Uva” as part of your prelim research….Voila!….there it is….there’s that fraternity from the ’84 incident….by it’s location, the most prominent house of the bunch…..what great architecture…what a great backdrop……and look, plenty of room in the front yard for protests…..Phi Kappa Psi…
of course I am being more than cynical here but that article is BS and the subsequent actions of the players is telling….again, why hasnt “Jackie” gone to the Police in this period after the article broke?…..I have one possible answer but I want to hear an explanation from the accuser, RS, and her virulent defenders….please, someone form a hypothesis here to explain their lack of action
12/5/2024 6:56 am
…..because according to them there is a wild gang of 9 psycopathic rapists that have been flushed from their lair by societies best friend, Rolling Stonemagazine, and is currently walking the Grounds planning another “Date Night” as we speak…..isn’t anuyone scared?….it’s a “culture” and generally rapists never stop at their first victim…….
12/5/2024 7:01 am
[…] did not fact check the story properly, and neither did Rolling Stone. Their excuses as to why seem inadequate, self-serving, and […]
12/5/2024 7:05 am
LACK of criminal complaint hypothesis: (someone please fill in my culturally induced blank spot ) ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/2024 8:01 am
“The indifference with which her complaint was met was, we discovered, sadly consistent with the experience of many other UVA women who have tried to report such assaults.”
this is believable…..the implication here is that other “such assaults” (gang rapes) were covered up out of “indifference”……
further…..
“ Then they egged him on: “Don’t you want to be a brother?” “We all had to do it, so you do, too.”
This implies that basically once a year during this Phi Psi regime as part of the pledge (PIN!!!!!) ritual, a gang rape was organized…..hmmmm….don’t you think other (at least one) gang rape victim(s) would have surfaced by now? (sorry for the Animal House ref…..)
12/5/2024 8:50 am
Ms. Erdely’s story requires a suspension of disbelief.
There may be a kernel truth somewhere within Ms. Erdely’s account in Rolling Stone. Yet, “Jackie” may also be a composite admixture of several women from different locations from different eras.
Ms. Erdely’s representation that 7 men brutally raped “Jackie” for 3 hours on a bed of glass is problematical at best. Many commentators have pointed that shards of glass would have been embedded in her back, which would have necessitated medical attention. Also, a reasonable person could also have expected that one, if not all, of the alleged perpetrators would also have required medical attention.
However, this is as far as this line of inquiry goes.
Why not one step further?
How much blood would a normal person lose if his/her back was ground into broken glass for 3 hours? (Is there a doctor in the house?)
Would that amount of blood loss have rendered a normal woman unconscious?
If so, for how long?
Would that woman have needed an immediate transfusion?
Or, would a normal woman have died if this attack happened as reported?
From exsanguination (blood loss)?
For those who wish read further analysis of the Rolling Stone story, you might check KC Johnson’s article in Minding The Campus, in which he points out 7 of 8 quoted sources in Ms. Erdely’s article had a vested interest in the fraternity-rape metanarrative. (“It appears, therefore, as if Erdely spoke only to people who for personal or ideological reasons were inclined to vouch for Jackie’s credibility.”)
12/5/2024 8:55 am
The Piltdown Man is the most famous paleoanthropological hoax ever perpetrated.
Two generations of scientists and educators accepted the Piltdown skull as proof positive of human evolution, proof of a “missing link”-conveniently found within a reasonable train ride of London.
Finally, 40 years after the skull’s “discovery,” investigators determined an orangutan jaw had been added to a human cranium.
Moral of the story: sometimes, the need for a metanarrative overwhelms objective analysis.
In her search for a college to highlight a rape-culture, Ms. Erdely left Philadelphia, which has the two most dangerous colleges in the US (#1 UPenn and #2 Temple on Elite Daily’s list), took a convenient train ride south to a school that “felt right”…”like most colleges across America, genteel University of Virginia has no radical feminist culture seeking to upend the patriarchy.”
And then, Ms. Erdely cites an anonymous source who alleges a gruesome sexual assault that occurred more than two years ago. There are no corroborative witnesses (not even an anonymous one). There are apparently no photos, no hospital reports, no police reports-no forensic evidence, nothing. And the alleged perpetrators have supposedly graduated.
It would be unfortunate if 40 years needs to pass before critical analysis is applied to Ms. Erdely’s story and an objective determination is made whether it is fact or hoax.
12/5/2024 1:45 pm
[…] A few days ago Bradly noted that the reporter was suddenly incommunicado and Rolling Stone was being circumspect in their defense: […]
12/5/2024 2:54 pm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/u-va-fraternity-to-rebut-claims-of-gang-rape-in-rolling-stone/2014/12/05/5fa5f7d2-7c91-11e4-84d4-7c896b90abdc_story.html?wpisrc=al_national
12/5/2024 5:01 pm
[…] and foremost, Hume credits a blog post by writer Richard Bradley for taking an extensive, critical look at a blanket PR statement by Rolling Stone claiming that […]
12/5/2024 6:21 pm
I looked up the site where the lyrics of the The Rugby Road Song are referenced above. They are here
http://reocities.com/RodeoDrive/2693/drink.html
and clearly list
Introductory Verses
Rival Specific Verses
Peach Bowl Verses
Fun and Sexist Verses
and it looks like the site is maintained by….a woman
http://reocities.com/RodeoDrive/2693/achome.html
named Barret
http://reocities.com/RodeoDrive/2693/pics/accat.jpg
a bit of movie buff she is….
from her home page
“Name the movie/show:
“I’m just trying to get a rise out of you, that’s all, you know, for shits ‘n giggles!!”
“It rubs the lotion on its skin. It does this whenever it’s told.”
“When you eat a taco it goes out your backside too, chulo.”
“They mostly only come out at night…MOSTLY…”
line 2 was referenced by people casting doubt on the quote in the original rolling stone story
“Grab its motherfucking leg,” she heard a voice say
if you go to Erdley’s site
http://www.sabrinaerdely.com/archives.html
you can see her previous articles and I am sure people will be going through them with a fine tooth comb…however this paragraph stands out
from her article in Rolling Stone called
Yoga Cult
How a Korean guru has created a fanatical following on
college campuses that is part Moonies, part New Age boot camp
and pure profit By Sabrina Rubin Erdely
http://www.sabrinaerdely.com/docs/YogaCult.pdf
“…….round the clock, members performed all kinds of mysterious rituals. Certain exercises had taken some getting used to, of course. Like the one
where they’d turn off the lights and everyone would dance
and scream for hours, until they collapsed in a sobbing
heap. Or just earlier today, when Amy had been ordered to
mash her face in the dirt as a lesson in humility………At a previous workshop that lasted for 10 days,
she and a dozen others had begun each morning by punching themselves in the stomach while hollering things like “I
am stupid!”
Sounds like Erdley would benefit from the last exercise
12/5/2024 6:29 pm
[…] A few days ago Bradly noted that the reporter was suddenly incommunicado and Rolling Stone was being circumspect in their defense: […]
12/5/2024 8:16 pm
[…] ведь перестанут. Виновник торжества, Rolling Stone, принялся заметать следы и валить все на “Джеки” - мол, история ее, мы […]
12/5/2024 10:51 pm
[…] response to the criticism, the magazine issued a statement (discussed here) that attempts to clarify that the intent of the story was to present one person’s account of […]
12/9/2024 10:10 am
[…] Rolling Stone story. “I’m not sure that this gang rape actually happened,” he wrote in a blog post, using brilliant plagiarist Stephen Glass (whom he edited, and who duped him) as a comparison base […]
12/21/2014 11:15 pm
To the UVa community, you have clearly been attacked and victimized by an overzealous reporter with an axe to grind. This entire story reeks of a narcissistic agenda. RS’s failure to come clean and admit it erred speaks volumes of the current state of RS’s editorial staff. Please do not roll over and accept this assault. Fight back and demand the truth from RS and a public apology. A supporting Hokie!!!
12/22/2014 4:25 pm
The accusations of rape by revenue-sport athletes are troubling. But, if true, they do not reflect the culture of the university, whichever one it is. It may be, certainly is, a bad idea to maintain a separate group of mercenaries not susceptible to the usual rules of university life, but, however visible they may be, they are separate from university life. And the more important the sport is, the more separate they are, with certain exceptions such as Notre Dame.
1/21/2015 11:44 pm
Hello,
My name is Nicole and I am currently a senior double majoring in Criminology and Political Science. This semester I decided to take a course by the name of Confronting Gender-based Violence in the United States. We have been challenged with the task to confront a journalist in which we believe is using passive voice when reporting on gender-based violence. I happened to be reading your article and I realized that you were doing just that, by tearing apart the victim’s story. In your statement you mentioned Rolling Stone “found her to be “entirely credible”—a word which is subtly different than, say, “Truthful.” I wanted you to realize that your choice of words can cause readers to refer to the victim as an alleged victim, rather than a victim, ultimately creating doubt which inculcates distrust. I hope the next time you write an article on sensitive issues, please consider my recommendations before you insult, re-traumatize, and or deeply hurt someone.
Respectfully,
1/22/2015 1:50 pm
How does someone who doesn’t understand that merely self-proclaiming yourself to be a victim-hood doesn’t make you an actual victim, or understand the concept of the presumption of innocence until proven beyond a reasonable doubt even get accepted as a Criminology major? She must be an affirmative action beneficiary going to an Ivy League school. I wonder if she could spell mom if you spotted her the ‘m’?
Oh, and isn’t she an entitled and special little thing? Presuming to lecture an accomplished, working journalist…