Is the Rolling Stone Story True?
Posted on November 24th, 2014 in Uncategorized | 477 Comments »
Some years ago, when I was an editor at George magazine, I was unfortunate enough to work with the writer Stephen Glass on a number of articles. They proved to be fake, filled with fabrications, as was pretty much all of his work. The experience was painful but educational; it forced me to examine how easily I had been duped. Why did I believe those insinuations about Bill Clinton-friend Vernon Jordan being a lech? About the dubious ethics of uber-fundraiser (now Virginia governor) Terry McAuliffe?
The answer, I had to admit, was because they corroborated my pre-existing biases. I was well on the way to believing that Vernon Jordan was a philanderer, for example—everyone seemed to think so, back in the ’90s, during the Monica Lewinsky time.
So Stephen wrote what he knew I was inclined to believe. And because I was inclined to believe it, I abandoned my critical judgment. I lowered my guard.
The lesson I learned: One must be most critical, in the best sense of that word, about what one is already inclined to believe. So when, say, the Duke lacrosse scandal erupted, I applied that lesson. The story was so sensational! Believing it required indulging one’s biases: A southern school…rich white preppy boys…a privileged sports team…lower class African-American women…rape. It read like a Tom Wolfe novel.
And of course it never happened.
Which brings me to a magazine article that is causing an enormous furor in Virginia and around the country; it’s inescapable on social media. Written by a woman named Sabrina Rubin Erdely, the article is called “A Rape on Campus: A Brutal Assault and Struggle for Justice at UVA.”
The article alleges a truly horrifying gang rape at a UVA fraternity, and it has understandably shocked the campus and everyone who’s read it. The consequences have been pretty much instantaneous: The fraternity involved has voluntarily suspended its operations (without admitting that the incident happened); UVA’s president is promising an investigation and has since suspended all fraternity charters on campus; the alumni are in an uproar; the governor of Virginia has spoken out; students, particularly female students, are furious, and the concept of “rape culture” is further established. Federal intervention is sure to follow.
The only thing is…I’m not sure that I believe it. I’m not convinced that this gang rape actually happened. Something about this story doesn’t feel right.
Here’s why.
The article tells the story of “Jackie”—we never learn her identity—an 18-year-old freshman at UVA. She’s a model student, “attending events, joining clubs, making friends and, now, being asked on an actual date” by a fraternity member she met while working as a lifeguard. Her date, “Drew”—for a reason Rolling Stone never explains, we never learn his identity either—leads Jackie upstairs so that they can talk “where it’s quieter.”
What Rolling Stone writer Sabrina Rudin Erdely says happens next turns the stomach.
Drew ushered Jackie into a bedroom, shutting the door behind them. The room was pitch-black inside. Jackie blindly turned toward Drew, uttering his name. At that same moment, she says, she detected movement in the room – and felt someone bump into her. Jackie began to scream.
“Shut up,” she heard a man’s voice say as a body barreled into her, tripping her backward and sending them both crashing through a low glass table. There was a heavy person on top of her, spreading open her thighs, and another person kneeling on her hair, hands pinning down her arms, sharp shards digging into her back, and excited male voices rising all around her. When yet another hand clamped over her mouth, Jackie bit it, and the hand became a fist that punched her in the face. The men surrounding her began to laugh. For a hopeful moment Jackie wondered if this wasn’t some collegiate prank. Perhaps at any second someone would flick on the lights and they’d return to the party.
“Grab its motherfucking leg,” she heard a voice say. And that’s when Jackie knew she was going to be raped.
And, Rubin Erdley says, she was—repeatedly, and for an agonizingly long time.
She remembers every moment of the next three hours of agony, during which, she says, seven men took turns raping her, while two more – her date, Drew, and another man – gave instruction and encouragement. She remembers how the spectators swigged beers, and how they called each other nicknames like Armpit and Blanket. She remembers the men’s heft and their sour reek of alcohol mixed with the pungency of marijuana. Most of all, Jackie remembers the pain and the pounding that went on and on.
Let me be very clear: I don’t doubt that it’s possible that this happened. People can do terrible things, things that one doesn’t want to believe happen. And I certainly don’t want to think that this could have happened.
But more than that: I don’t believe that it happened—certainly not in the way that it is recounted.
Remember: One must be most critical about stories that play into existing biases. And this story nourishes a lot of them: biases against fraternities, against men, against the South; biases about the naivete of young women, especially Southern women; pre-existing beliefs about the prevalence—indeed, the existence—of rape culture; extant suspicions about the hostility of university bureaucracies to sexual assault complaints that can produce unflattering publicity.
And, of course, this is a very charged time when it comes to the issue of sexual assault on campuses. Emotion has outswept reason. Jackie, for example, alleges that one out of three women who go to UVA has been raped. This is silly.
So let’s look at this story with a different set of eyes—not the eyes of a man or a woman, but those of a magazine editor who has seen fakes before.
The first thing that strikes me about it, of course, is that Jackie is never identified. I don’t love that—it makes me uncomfortable to base an entire story on an unnamed source, and I can’t think of any other situation other than rape where a publication would allow that—but certainly one can see the rationale.
Then we have three friends who talked to Jackie right after the rape, and apparently discouraged her from going to the hospital or the authorities because they might subsequently be banned from frat parties. Not one of them is named, or interviewed; so the three people who could allegedly corroborate the assault don’t.
Then there’s the fact that Jackie apparently knew two of her rapists, but they are not named, nor does Rubin Erdley contact them, which is basically a cardinal rule of journalism: If someone in your story is accused of something, you’d better do your damnedest to give them a chance to respond. There’s no sign that Rubin Erdley did so. Why not? Did she not know their names? Would Jackie not tell her? Because if Rubin Erdley knew their names and didn’t call them, that is horrible journalism and undermines confidence in her reporting. And if she didn’t know their names—well, we’re back in Patrick Witt-land again.
Finally there’s the narrative of the gang rape itself. It is a terrible story—so terrible that, if it weren’t for the power of our preexisting biases, we would be hard-pressed to believe it.
A young woman is lured to a fraternity in order to be gang-raped as part of a fraternity initiation. It’s a premeditated gang rape. I am not, thankfully, an expert on premeditated gang rape, but to the extent that it exists, it seems to be most prevalent in war-torn lands or countries with a strain of a punitive, misogynist and violent religious culture (Pakistan, for example).
The allegation here is that, at U.Va., gang rape is a rite of passage for young men to become fraternity “brothers.” It’s possible. One would think that we’d have heard of this before—gang rape as a fraternity initiation is hard to keep secret—but it’s possible.
So then we have a scene that boggles the mind. (Again, doesn’t mean it’s untrue; does mean we have to be critical.)
A young woman is led into a “pitch-black” room. She is shoved by a man, who falls on her; they crash through a glass table and she lands in shards of glass. She bites his hand; he punches her; the men laugh. (Really? A man punches a woman and people laugh?) With the smell of marijuana (not usually known as a violence-inducing drug) hovering over the room, he and six more men rape her. The last uses a beer bottle; allegedly he can not get an erection, so his fellow frat brothers goad him on, mock him, then finally give him a tool with which to violate Jackie. (This is the man whom Jackie allegedly knew because they were in an anthropology seminar together.) This, after all, is who men really are, in anonymous darkness.
It is hard for me here not to think of Tawana Brawley, who not too long ago—but too far back for many of this article’s readers to remember—showed up at her home after going missing for a couple of days wearing only a garbage bag, covered in feces and with racial slurs scrawled on her body. Brawley told her family that she’d been kidnapped and raped by six white men.
Turned out she made the whole thing up to avoid a potential punishment from her stepfather. But before that truth was discovered, the lives of the men she accused were very nearly destroyed.
(Jackie: “She remembers how…the men called each other nicknames like ‘Armpit’ and ‘Blanket'”—which apparently explains why she doesn’t know the names of seven of the men involved.)
The story of what happened to Jackie is similarly horrifying—and similarly incredible. Having been raped for three hours while lying in shards of glass “digging into her back”—three hours of which Jackie remembers every detail, despite the fact of the room’s pitch-blackness—she passes out and wakes up at 3 AM in an empty room.
Again: It’s possible. You can’t say it isn’t. But I am reminded of the urban myth about someone waking up in a bathtub full of ice in New Orleans. This story contains a lot of apocryphal tropes.
Jackie makes her way downstairs, her red dress apparently sufficiently intact to wear; the party is still raging. Though she is blood-stained—three hours with shards of glass “digging into her back,” and gang-raped, including with a beer bottle— and must surely look deeply traumatized, no one notices her. She makes her way out a side entrance she hadn’t seen before. She calls her friends, who tell her that she doesn’t want to be known as the girl who cried rape and worry that if they take her to the hospital they won’t get invited to subsequent frat parties.
Nothing in this story is impossible; it’s important to note that. It could have happened. But to believe it beyond a doubt, without a question mark—as virtually all the people who’ve read the article seem to—requires a lot of leaps of faith. It requires you to indulge your pre-existing biases.
Or perhaps I should say your pre-existing fantasies—your nightmares about the worst possible thing that could happen to you, or your friend or your daughter or sister; your deepest fears about what men are capable of; your horror at the horror of rape; your outrage about the lack of outrage.
“Grab its motherfucking leg,” says the first rapist to one of his “brothers.” It reminds me of Silence of the Lambs: “It rubs the lotion on its skin…” But Silence of the Lambs was fiction.
What happens now? There will be investigations; the police will likely be involved. If there really were nine men in that pitch-black room, it is hard to imagine that we won’t find out the truth, or at least more information. And Jackie could, I believe, waive her legal protections and allow the university to disclose the file it allegedly has on her case.
But we do not know who Jackie is, and she will not put her name to this, for fear of backlash.
If it didn’t happen, this story will be impossible to disprove—some people seem to want to believe it—and U.Va’s reputation will likely not recover for decades. Rolling Stone—which published several articles by Stephen Glass, by the way, and always insisted that it was the one publication in which Glass did not tell lies—will stand by its story. And we will never know the truth.
477 Responses
11/25/2014 6:25 am
Wouldn’t the rapists get cut by the broken glass all over the floor, too? I guess they were such sex-crazed animals that they didn’t notice the glass cutting their hands and knees for the first three hours.
11/25/2014 6:51 am
Perhaps this media furor about UVA has something to do with the murder of UVA coed Hanna Graham in September? With all the recent news stories of bad behavior against women by black men, such as Bill Cosby, Ray Rice, and the suspect in the Graham murder, there’s a real hunger right now for a tale of evil white men. That doesn’t mean this Rolling Stone story isn’t completely true; but, like you say, it sure complies with current prejudices far better than most of the recent stories of women being abused by men.
11/25/2014 7:57 am
So this is a pre-planned, traditional annual fraternity initiation gang-rape, with two older fraternity brothers coaching the seven pledges but not partaking themselves? Yet, it doesn’t seem very well organized at all, such as leaving a glass table in the middle of the room to immediately fall over and smash. And the pitch darkness — or at least it’s dark enough so nobody can see where the glass table is, but not so dark that the poor victim can’t recognize her assailant from anthropology class — seems odd, too. Don’t these animalistic rapists want to watch?
Presumably, the pitch darkness is to prevent the victim from identifying her assailants, but she can already identify the ringleader Drew.
And how many pledges are there at this fraternity anyway? Seven? Then what good does darkness do to cloud their identities? Or say there are twelve pledges. Even if the victim couldn’t identify any (besides Drew) isn’t there a lot of worry that the police would just arrest all twelve and wait for one or two of the five who weren’t rapists to get cold feet and ID the real perps in return for immunity?
11/25/2014 11:14 am
A problem with the plausibility of the story is the source’s insistence that she was sober and remembers every detail accurately. Relax that constraint and the story would seem less unlikely because inconsistent or improbable details could be chalked up to alcohol fog.
11/27/2014 4:20 am
Sorry to keep coming back to this, but I’ve done some more thinking and here’s where the story falls apart: pitch darkness _and_ broken glass on the floor. The glass table is smashed, but nobody turns on the light to see what happened or where the broken glass is? Instead, each man, having heard the glass table get smashed, still gets down on the floor covered with shards of broken glass, risking not only his hands and knees, but also pulling out an even more personal part of his anatomy, one that he only has one of.
Really?
11/29/2014 7:20 pm
Remember Iman Obeidi? Anderson Cooper did about 25 reports about her claim that she’d been gangraped by Qadaffi’s soldiers leading up to Obama’s insane, stupid war on Libya. Qadaffi shipped her out to Qatar with her whole family and then Qatar expelled her. And then Obama destroyed Libya and we never heard about her again.
Of the “Neda” story that a woman getting out of a car several blocks from a demonstration in Tehran was shot and killed by Iranian Guard snipers. That one got a Pulitzer Prize or a Polk Prize - one of the big ones - despite there being no objective evidence except a YouTube video.
The “N” word was mirror image on Tawana Brawley’s forehead. Ergo, everyone in the police and the governor and the attorney general of NY knew from Day One that it was a hoax.
Why are journalists so darned gullible? The Osama bin Laden raid — most wanted man in the world doesn’t even have a dog to bark and warn him of intruders. A US helicopter CRASHES next door to him and he’s still hanging around in his underwear, doesn’t bother to get his AK-47.
11/29/2014 7:28 pm
I’m a female, long past the frat party phase, and this story stinks … on ice.
11/29/2014 7:39 pm
The same thing happens with North Korea on a regular basis. You’ll here some story about that confirms how crazy they are and then it turns out to be false.
11/29/2014 7:42 pm
All good points. Also, how likely is it that, in 2014, female college students would advise a raped friend to not report it or even get medical attention, because they “wouldn’t get invited to frat parties”? Afterwards, did they remove the broken glass from her back and stitch up the wounds? Because this sounds like she never got medical attention. Did a local hospital get a female patient with glass cuts on her back?
Given the high rate of hate crime hoaxes these days, yes, people should be suspicious of this one.
11/29/2014 8:06 pm
I write an education blog and decided not to get into this, but I agree with every single word. I read of it first at Rod Dreher’s blog and was utterly stunned to see that not only Rod, but all but a couple of commenters accepted the story at face value. Then I see on Twitter that everyone accepts it as fact there, too. I do not understand this.
Good for you for pointing it out.
11/29/2014 8:17 pm
This story is not believable at all. Premeditated gang rape, but these guys are this uncoordinated? ‘Drew’ has no qualms about being the only man at risk here? They’re going to leave a glass table out, then go a’raping in the midst of broken glass? This girl was raped in complete darkness for three hours while being cut by glass, but no one at the party notices? None of the friends who she consults after the fact care? Where are the blood and semen stains in the carpet of the room she was raped in?
11/29/2014 8:19 pm
I read the story, and admit I was sucked into the narrative. That’s how gripping it is. But it’s also basically a crock. There’s glass all over the floor, but no one is a bit concerned. “Jackie” knows at least two of the perps, but won’t file charges - despite now being a leader of a campus anti-sexual assault group. If anyone besides “Jackie” was actually interviewed and quoted in the piece, it’s administrators with a dog in the fight, so to speak. So yes, it stinks to high heaven.
But the part that stinks the most is that supposedly each of her THREE friends she met outside the frat house all advised her against going to the police, despite there having allegedly been copious evidence - bruises, cuts, semen - for her to file charges. And all three of them tell her not to go.
You ever been in a situation like that? Two people may advise something dumb, but at least one is going to chime in and say “Are you effing nuts? Of course we’re going to the police!!!” These are U-Va students. They’re smart kids. One of them is going to do that. If it’s a he said/she said (in this case a they said/she said) I could understand choosing not to go. But here the evidence was copious, to the point of probably even requiring medical attention, and yet she chose not to go.
My guess? Sexual assault has been in the news. Sabrina Rubin Erdely heard about U-Va’s “Rugby Road” song - and I’m wagering most of those verses aren’t even remotely official - and she thought it made a great punchline for her article. And it didn’t hurt that U-Va’s a Southern school.
Yes, the story’s a crock. I have a hunch U-Va could find itself owning Rolling Stone in the very near future. The school should force U-Va to put up, pay up, or retract.
11/29/2014 8:23 pm
* The school should force ROLLING STONE to put up, pay up, or retract.”
11/29/2014 8:47 pm
What about the fact that they were basically called pledges (in Fall) yet pledging happens in spring at UVA..get your facts straight Rolling Stone
11/29/2014 9:01 pm
* The school should force ROLLING STONE to put up, pay up, or retract.”
This story is a gift from heaven for UVA in their war against the fraternities. They’re already used it to to suspend the fraternities. It wouldn’t surprise me at all that UVA administration is involved in putting the story out there for this very purpose.
As for UVA’s reputation not recovering for decades, the UVA admin will put the blame on the fraternities and will portray themselves as the heroes. In their minds, any hit to the reputation will be small and completely justified. They probably think that getting rid of the fraternities will enhance the reputation or at least force the guys want to join fraternities to go elsewhere, giving the UVA faculty and admin a much more pliable and easily manipulated student body.
11/29/2014 9:07 pm
Another massive issue, THERE ARE NO PLEDGES IN THE FALL. UVA only has spring rush which means that all are initiated at the end of the school year.
11/29/2014 10:12 pm
As a UVa student who has heard this girl speak, in person, about her experiences close to a year before this story was published, I can say with most certainty that it’s not “cock and bull.” Did the author exaggerate in her telling? Perhaps. But could a girl walk out of a fraternity party after gang rape looking traumatized and disheveled to all hell and have no one notice? Easily. Its a packed house full of college students who are drunk to oblivion and focused only upon themselves and their intoxication. It’s the easiest thing to escape unnoticed. This fraternity house has bedrooms upstairs, and multiple floors, so it would easily go unnoticed by a party packed with hundreds of people on the lower floors. Rape and sexual assault are the most underreported crimes in the country, so it shouldn’t be surprising that she didn’t go to the police and wasn’t able to talk about it. Many victims cannot talk about these things years later. Are some details of this account wrong? It seems that way. But calling such blatant bs seems disrespectful. Skepticism is usually warranted (and this was admittedly bad journalism), but in the case of sexual assault, this attitude needs to change, because most women would never lie about being raped. Are there exceptions? Sure. But what does this poor girl have to gain if she never asked for anything in the first place? She’s never revealed her identity except to the few involved in One Less — the female advocacy group for victims of sexual assault at UVa, never asked for justice, stands to gain little from this article except, hopefully, long term change in the way such crimes are handled. Change is the end goal of this article, and if any have been monitoring the news at UVa, there’s been so much positive action already.
11/29/2014 10:47 pm
UVa,
Your post is instructively sleazy. Your “social justice” ends justify your lies, eh?
Prepare for this outrageous and slanderous rape fantasy to be ruthlessly exposed in every particular.
Legal consequences await those who have lied.
11/29/2014 10:51 pm
If she doesn’t want to be dismissed as a particularly disgusting sort of liar, produce the medical records of the treatment of her back, at least.
11/29/2014 10:56 pm
anon, what do you think “UVa” lied about? Hearing someone speak a year before the story was published? Beyond that the commenter knows no more about whether it really happened than you do.
11/29/2014 11:02 pm
TGGP,
The post by UVa speaks for itself. Those involved are beginning the slow and slimy crawl down from these outrageous and fantastic lies.
What no one wants to discuss is how the Rolling Stone narrative is indistinguishable from kink (dot) com and James Deen gangbang porn — and, crucially, how this kind of sexual fantasia drives such hysterical lies.
Now there’s a subject for a brave blogger.
11/29/2014 11:36 pm
Heh… The universities are infested by feminist enthusiasts. There are many more female students than male students. Not only is there no “culture of rape” at the campuses, but there could not possible be such a thing. It only exist in the sick fantasy of the feminist maddogs foaming at their mouths looking for someone to bite.
So the story above obviously is a lie. No serious person can believe it. Boy cries wolf has become girl cries rape.
On a tangent, you can’t have both sexual liberation and intolerance to rape. If you support sexual liberation, you are tolerant to rape. If you are against rape, then you should be for traditional values. What’s difference between rough sex and rape? An angry chick’s say-so. With murder, there is a body. With rape, there are some chick’s (probably fake) tears. The difference is from hear to the moon.
11/30/2014 12:14 am
Has anyone tried to contact the Rolling Stone editor who was responsible for overseeing this piece?
11/30/2014 1:03 am
UVa,
While at a fraternity party escaping notice would be easy and believable, Jackie makes a big point about the event being a date function. If you are at all familiar with these events you’ll know that they are small, private, and are generally over before 12:30AM. Less than 60 people attend these events. There is no way she came down stairs and no one noticed her.
11/30/2014 1:13 am
This is a thought-provoking post and it makes me recall a story that’s probably way, way to old for most people here to remember.
It’s Janet Cook’s 1980 Washington Post expose, “Bobby’s World,” which told of an 8-year-old junkie’s plight. That also played into what people believed about inner city kids. Of course, that turned out to be fiction and I remember the post issuing a retraction in 1981.
When I wrote for newspapers and magazines, we were required to list our sources and contact numbers and turn them in with our finished stories. The copy desk would call the sources and verify facts and quotes — even if the sources weren’t named in the story.
I wonder if this was required of the writer here. If so, a Rolling Stone editor could defend her by saying: “We had our copy desk verify all incidents and quotes in this story.”
11/30/2014 1:14 am
Their penises would have been the consistency of ground meat by the end of three hours. Sexually inexperienced men violently raping a struggling woman in pitch black darkness are going to have their penises pop out and have a great deal of trouble getting them back in their victim. About half of those misses are going involve violent lunges into broken glass and a good portion of those will be sandwich the penis between broken glass and a the women herself.
Right?
11/30/2014 1:15 am
It was pitch dark, yes? So how did the other frat brothers see that she bit her date’s hand? And how did she know it was a beer bottle (as opposed to a Coke bottle or a bottle of spirits)?
But, having had her back lacerated by glass shards, and having been forcibly penetrated by a bottle, she had to get medical treatment at some stage. Easy piece of investigation - get her permission to have the medical records examined.
And, of course, her back would still be horribly scarred - a visual inspection would be v useful in clarifying the matter.
11/30/2014 1:19 am
Addendum:
In my above post, I called Janet Cooke’s story “Bobby’s World.” It was actually called “Jimmy’s World.”
See what happens when we don’t have copy desk?
11/30/2014 2:30 am
Thank god I found other skeptics. When I first read the Rolling Stone piece a few days ago, I had the same questions many have already asked regarding the broken glass, the fact that these are intelligent kids who wold be aware of how very easy it would be for the alleged victim to identify them, etc.
Now, to make a really controversial point: Many women have rape fantasies. Here is a link where you can read about studies and surveys that go to that point:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/201001/womens-rape-fantasies-how-common-what-do-they-mean
So basically one of two things probably happened. 1.) She made the whole damn thing up. Slightly more likely, 2.) She had sex with multiple partners over the course of a few hours in the frat house. She basically lost control and participating in this Dionysian ecstasy with a bunch of horny frat boys. After the fact, the realizes that the story of this sort of escapade is going to get around campus fast and she will be justly labeled a whore. She needs to absolve herself of her feeling of guilt and shame, so she immerses herself into this clearly masochistic victim culture on campus. If she was really brutalized in the manner described, she would not be hemming and hawing on whether or not to press charges. She knows the boys lives will be ruined and doesn’t want the further damage on her conscience.
11/30/2014 4:15 am
God it’s refreshing to hear intelligent questioning.
To answer the one commenter’s question about what she has to gain;
Attention. Loads of it. Women love attention and they love being held up as altruistic and “brave” martyrs.
She has a reason for doing poorly in school.
To say most women wouldn’t lie is ridiculous.
People lie about things all the time about every conceivable thing, her being a female and raped doesn’t change that in the slightest and when she has incentive to do it (exsposure for her org, positive reinforcement “you’re so brave”, etc) and all while not every truly committing to her story by providing a little thing called “evidence” she gets a win/win in her mind because who would ever question a rape victim?
This story stinks to high heaven, this girl would be in need of medical attention from the glass table alone (that others have pointed out could only somehow cut women).
I don’t think the author lied on purpose, I think she wanted to believe this type of terrible thing happened so badly she bought this story that’s no doubt been told hundreds if times by now and is well rehearsed hook, line, and sinker.
Oh one other thing, if women don’t report all their alleged rapes and sexual assualts do you think men do?
I’ve had girls pull my hair and scratch my back. I hated it and it was annoying.
I’m betting in your world view thats sexual assault, how many men out there have had girls grab them? Every man I know has had this happen, we just don’t act like its a big deal because it isn’t.
Meanwhile if a girl is having sex and a guy is too rough for a moment or does something she finds demeaning, the next morning while recounting what happened to her friend in women’s studies she conveniently leaves out the part where she says “don’t do that” and they continue on as before and the friend convinces her that shes a victim of sexual assault.
Why? Women make carreers out of their victimhood.
And the world never wants to point out that a piano falls out of the sky very rarely.
11/30/2014 4:29 am
Cheers for daring to question the inquisition. Unfortunately, articles even considering the possibility that an alleged crime is made up and part of a larger agenda are nowadays so rare and take so much courage to publish without a pen name, that they have become an equivalent of the famous “J’accuse!”
11/30/2014 7:49 am
There’s something dreamlike about a lot of the details (falling through a glass table without major injuries, no one reacting to her wandering around bloodied, ‘noticing’ a side door she hadn’t seen before).
My assumption is that she had some kind of sexual encounter with more than one guy that was maybe semi-consentual (consent is often a question of degree rather than a star white/black distinction). Later she had dreams and/or nightmares about it and now can’t distinguish the dreams from the reality.
Or the whole thing is made up out of whole cloth (a possibility).
At any rate, I think the possibility that the whole thing happened as recounted is approximately zero.
Does anyone want to look up what happens to people who fall through glass tables? That would be a place to start.
11/30/2014 7:51 am
The importance of questioning one’s biases can never be overstated. But ideologues don’t think they have biases, and leftist ideologues run our media, government and schools.
11/30/2014 8:37 am
……
11/30/2014 8:41 am
This would be a time when I suggest to the folk out there, “Don’t believe everything that you read.”
11/30/2014 8:55 am
It seems more likely that there was a normal table with a lot of glass on it — say beer bottles. To no one — that’s true, I had forgotten it was a date function, but the story had said she left much later than 12:30, correct? Around 3:00am? To anon — that’s a matter for the police, and sorry — I don’t watch porn.
If anyone had paid any attention, this girl waited two whole years before sharing her story. I wouldn’t necessarily call that attention hungry. Who would ever question a rape victim? Absolutely everybody. Only 5% of rape crimes are ever convicted because men like you always point fingers at the woman.
These comments are ignorant and rather misogynistic. It’s really not worth arguing at this point.
11/30/2014 9:19 am
UVa, the woman gets viciously gang-raped, does not go to police out of fear of “victim-shaming”, but nevertheless feels compelled to give speeches about (for a year) to raise awareness, while allowing the rapists the freedom to conduct more organized gang rapes. Does this really make sense to you?
C’mon, you couldn’t write a single comment about this situation without contradicting yourself….
You begin by stating you heard the girl speak of her experience for over a year, yet you follow-in the same paragraph-with the statement:
“…so it shouldn’t be surprising that she didn’t go to the police and wasn’t able to talk about it. Many victims cannot talk about these things years later.
But she was talking about it, UVa. For over a year. To raise awareness. So it doesn’t happen again. YET, this brave victim allows the rapists free reign to brutally violate another young woman.
So UVa..it kinda is “surprising”.
11/30/2014 10:06 am
Unless these glass shards were sexist, or unless these rapist’s White Male Privilege gave them some sort of futuristic protection bubble that kept their delicate pasty white skin from being pierced by the jagged edges of the shattered glass, then the gang bangers would have been cut really badly as they preformed this supposed Sex on the Glass Shards rite of initiation on this young coed.
And so the rapists’ DNA was all over Jackie’s bloody dress. Not only should she have needed to go to the hospital to have the small shards removed from her back (remember for three hours large frat boys were pressing down on her into this bed of shards. But even if the rapists used condoms, she had an open and shut case against them due to their DNA being all over her dress and her skin. The frat boys would also have had wounds and small pieces of glass in the skin. And there would have been a lot of blood at the crime scene.
What happened to this dress. Does Jackie still have it? DId she wash it? Could she pull a Monica and produce this dress with some intact DNA?
The more I hear about this story, the more I am convinced there will be a movie on it in a couple of years entitled Shattered Glass 2
And by the way, the author went to university with Stephen Glass and even reviewed the original movie. She knows his story very well so one wonders if this rape on shattered glass fable is some sort of mocking message to those in the know?
11/30/2014 10:21 am
I speculate that this story has some truth to it heavily embellished by the author’s sources and not by the author herself.
11/30/2014 11:29 am
Aren’t Glass tables (unless home made, I guess) generally made with tempered glass? This means that when they shatter, they break into very small bits rather than the shards we think of when a glass mirror or a drinking glass breaks.
That stuff is uncomfortable, especially if embedded in the skin with force, as in an auto accident (auto glass is also tempered). But, it doesn’t create big lacerations the way big shards of untempered glass would. It is possible that the glass table was made of glass that was not tempered, but that would be a good thing to know.
11/30/2014 11:52 am
I’m assuming the glass was tempered. Here is an image of what happens when a tempered glass table breaks:
http://allgoodinmommyhood.blogspot.be/2012/04/martha-stewarts-patio-table.html
The word “shards” is most likely not correct as this does imply annealed glass, but that is up to the author to confirm. And in a long shot, even if it was annealed (these type of tables certainly exist), after one or two rounds of the rape the glass would have been broken down to small pieces anyway. In any case the objections stand, can you image what would happen to the victim of a three hour rape while lying on this bed of shattered tempered glass? And can you imagine the victim removing all those small pieces of glass from her BACK by HERSELF (since she never mentions any of her three friends helping her)? In the RS story after the rape she just goes home and goes to sleep.
11/30/2014 12:17 pm
The problem with the whole situation-from the DoJ to the media coverage-is contained in UVa’s closing argument:
“Skepticism is usually warranted … but in the case of sexual assault, this attitude needs to change…”
On what planet do we NEED to intentionally suspend rationality when dealing with any particular topic? But he and everyone pushing the debunked rape culture lie want to do exactly that. Because it’s the only way to maintain the illusion.
By the same token, they want to suspend our system of justice, indeed upend it, presume every accused guilty and wrap prosecution, punishment, and appeals up in one office as Harvard and other schools are now actually doing.
UVa goes on to ask why this woman in particular or any college activist would make up these accusations, because he says, they have nothing to gain. But then he answers his own question:
“Change is the end goal of this article, and if any have been monitoring the news at UVa, there’s been so much positive action already.”
Change is the why. And change is already happening before any actual factfinding whatsoever has been done, and UVa thinks that’s -wonderful-
The real irony in all of this is that what we’re learning about rape-the new 3rd-wave Feminist definition of rape which includes everything from unwanted touching to consensual drunk sex-is that it’s committed by women at similar rates as men, with -women- using alcohol as their rape weapon at greater rates than male rapists (who prefer force).
“But by age 18, girls had become much more involved in preying on others, to the point where they were almost as likely to be perpetrators as were boys.” http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/10/08/230428115/many-teens-admit-to-coercing-others-into-sex
So while these propagandists run around touting a “rape culture”-booze-drenched frat houses full of privileged white guys who ply women with alcohol to get in their panties-it is in fact female rapists who use alcohol to rape men. If there is a rape culture at all (there isn’t), women have smashed the glass ceiling to be equal to men in that arena.
11/30/2014 12:40 pm
There is every reason to be skeptical about this story, given the lurid details and noted inconsistencies. But, given other details, and commenter UVa’s defense of a nonsensical story, the narrative does match that of an invented, unverifiable story to achieve a social justice end.
Just because this girl, a member of a feminist advocacy group for victims of sexual violence, waited to tell her story or “spoke” about it before it was published doesn’t mean it is true, as UVa would like us to believe. UVa, and other feminist advocates, want us to never be skeptical of a claim of rape (“this attitude needs to change”), which seems to be a purpose for this sensational story: everyone automatically believes it, which conditions people to automatically believe the next outlandish story.
But here’s the kicker in UVa’s post:
She’s never revealed her identity…never asked for justice, stands to gain little from this article except, hopefully, long term change in the way such crimes are handled.
Note that “she never asked for justice” because she never reported the crime, yet she wants to change the way “such crimes” are handled. Apparently without reporting them, without revealing one’s name. The change desired here is social conviction (and perhaps down the road actual criminal conviction) upon anonymous accusation of rape or sexual assault. No evidence needed, no skepticism allowed.
The Rolling Stone article’s narrative certainly fits with a social justice campaign where truth is irrelevant as long as the feminist ends are met. Which is to say that it’s even more most likely to be a complete crock…
11/30/2014 12:44 pm
Glass shards of the small variety are still glass shards.
I like how the misogynistic card gets pulled.
I really am floored how anon up there can say that everyone questions rape victims while discussing an article that sounds more fiction than reality which everyone has accepted as true without a single question. If only 5% of rape charges lead to convictions then thats actually proof about what a truly rare occurrence it is and in fact more evidence that false accusations are quite common. It only takes an accusation for a man to be arrested, physical evidence isn’t even necessary.
This blog is one of the few that have published fair skepticism.
Something else that doesn’t seem to add up is the encounter with “Drew” at the pool where he says “I really had a nice time”.
This leads me to believe that if theres any truth at all to this she had sex with multiple people consensually and then regretted it later.
Women hate and dread the idea of being thought of as “sluts”.
Especially in a Southern school.
If this isn’t a complete fabrication,this whole story may be her avoiding any responsibility for sleeping with multiple partners in a night.
11/30/2014 1:29 pm
There’s a logic out there that, because of underreporting and the impact sexual violence can have, we simply need to set aside rational discourse in evaluating claims when it comes to women’s stories of rape. And, despite the gigantic push and the fact the media is largely going along with this, it just isn’t true. It’s not the way rationalism works, it’s not the way our justice system is set up, and (hopefully) it is not the way most people are going to evaluate these claims.
I agree with the suspicions, including the involvement of Wendy Murphy. I also noted that several UVA students have said the “Rugby Road” song lyrics included in the piece are not anything they heard in their time at the school.
11/30/2014 1:56 pm
The coffee table glass was either annealed or tempered glass. If it was annealed glass then it would have broken into large (and small) shards which are potentially life threatening. If it were tempered glass then it would have shattered into smaller bits. You can google image “broken glass coffee table” to see what this would have looked like.
In either case it is unthinkable that a woman could have been raped for three hours on a bed of broken glass. If the large shards of annealed glass didn’t do major damage at first, they would have broken down to nasty little small pieces.
In both cases Jackie’s back would have had plenty of small pieces of glass embedded into it. There so there is no way she could have removed these pieces herself from her back. Yet the story doesn’t mention any of her three friends helping her but instead it mentions she went straight home and to bed.
Not only that, with nine men raping her with these glass chards all over the floor, there is little doubt that a piece or two would have found its way into some very uncomfortable places for both the rapists and rape victim.
The shattered glass portion of this story is a lie.
11/30/2014 3:03 pm
[…] looks like Steve Sailer is on the story now. And some guy I never heard of is on the trail […]
11/30/2014 3:43 pm
PapayaSF - Yes, you are exactly right. The details of the rape contain enough tropes as it is (“it,” the nervous boy who reluctantly participates, etc.), but “Jackie”‘s three friends encouraging her not to report the incident because it might hurt her reputation (which is a line right out of a 90s drama), hurt the school’s reputation, or prevent them from attending frat parties fits the left’s rape culture propaganda rather neatly. You really could have run similar stories about church burnings or satanic rituals back when the media obsessed about those things. It’s exploitation of a hysteria.
11/30/2014 3:46 pm
Everyone who believes this hit piece should be ashamed of themselves. The glass shards? That’s your case? DISGUSTING. You are all apologists for a culture that breeds rapists. BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES. You care more about the disgusting traditions of the the frat system more than the victims of horrific rapes. You are all what’s wrong with America.
11/30/2014 3:56 pm
A cogent logical retort there Lemon Session.
11/30/2014 4:07 pm
uh Lemon Session, let’s do a quick thought experiment. Let’s suppose these were rapists of color being accused of this terrible crime. Would you be so eager to blindly accept the incoherent accusations if the rapist were… I don’t know… black and from Ferguson?
11/30/2014 4:13 pm
Thank you for this editorial. Horrific crimes do occur, and for a variety of reasons, people invent them also. The rape hysteria is just that - hysteria.
Can we please allow law enforcement to do their job - to aggressively get to the truth of the matter instead of vilifying the many, many young college men who have suffered the devastation of being unjustly accused, judged, and expelled?
Women are coming out of the woodwork with all the drum beating by colleges trying to defend their Title IX monies and falling over themselves to keep the feds off their backs.
It’s a tragic situation to be the victim of a crime but so is it equally damaging to be unjustly accused of being a criminal. Can we please hold ouraelves to ahigher standard and get to the truth, no matter what it might be?
11/30/2014 4:16 pm
[…] the richard bradley blog post Is the Rolling Stone Story True?, which brings up some interesting […]
11/30/2014 4:25 pm
“A cogent logical retort there Lemon Session”
I’m pretty sure that was meant to be sarcasm. If it wasn’t then LS deserves compassion more than censure.
11/30/2014 4:28 pm
As someone who actually has called through a glass table (not during sex, just kind of rough housing) and who had their legs cut up by big and small pieces alike, I can tell you this: I did not go to the hospital. My boyfriend (who was there) and I cleaned the backs of my legs up. There was a lot of blood but once we cleaned it, we decided it was fine. I had a few scars that lasted a few months but everything else healed up just fine and the scars were gone within 6-9 months. Skin - especially young, healthy 18 year old skin - heals well. I was 19 when I fell through the totally glass table - I’m in my 30s now and suspect the scars might last a little longer now but skin at that age bounces back well.
No idea if the story is true or not but I teach college students and unfortunately a lot of this stuff does happen and the students never tell ANYONE except a best friend or a caring teacher. Most students who have told me about their rapes tell me a year or two after it happens and never do anything else about it. That is starting to change and that’s good. The victims need support and a chance to report if they want. And the perpetrators should also face facts and be charged within a shorter period of time, when they can hopefully get evidence collected and get a fair trial.
11/30/2014 4:28 pm
“She was absolutely bursting to tell this story,” Erdely said. “I could not believe how it poured out of her in one long narrative. She spoke so fast, I hardly had a chance to ask her a question. She was dying to share it.”
***
from the washington post story.
11/30/2014 4:29 pm
*my typo above - should say “has fallen through a glass table” (not called through). Duh.
11/30/2014 4:31 pm
also from the washington post article.
The story does take one journalistic shortcut. The alleged assault, described in graphic detail, is presented largely without traditional qualifiers, such as “according to Jackie” or “allegedly.” The absence of such attribution or qualification leaves the impression that the events in question are undisputed facts, rather than accusations. Erdely said, however, that her writing style makes it clear that the events are being told from Jackie’s point of view.
11/30/2014 4:37 pm
To believe this story, you must believe that seven men sat in total darkness for three hours as each one of them raped this woman. That is probably the most unbelievable and unlikely thing I can imagine.
11/30/2014 4:42 pm
To believe this story, you must believe that seven men sat in total darkness for three hours as each one of them raped this woman. That is probably the most unbelievable and unlikely thing I can imagine.
11/30/2014 4:48 pm
It is interesting to see various sceptical comments here by people who wish the RS article to be false. Some armchair detectives hoping for exeration are even guessing about the type of glass involved. The RS article is the writer’s account, condensed for space. It is not the victim’s account.
I predict that the police will arrest Drew and his frat brothers. There are enough men involved here that several will turn and confess in order to secure leniency for themselves. If there is any truth to the woman’s allegations, Drew and the others are headed for prison.
11/30/2014 4:56 pm
Neither the author of this piece nor any of the commenters ever defended any “disgusting traditions of the the frat system,” as commenter Lemmon Sessions asserted.
The fact that this is where the commenter goes is now making me wonder if there really isn’t some agenda coming from people with an interest in this story. If gang rape was a regular “tradition” of the “frat system” I’d be amazed that thousands of big-mouth frat boys could keep it a secret for so long.
I was not in a frat, but my two best friends were fraternity presidents and I never heard anything remotely like this story in college.
11/30/2014 4:58 pm
It sounds made up. Where, for instance, do you find sufficiently dimwitted people to take part in that kind of organized gang-rape? Despite of all the forensic evidence that raping somebody on glass-shards etc. would produce? And despite of the high risk for not-so-funny infections that raping people on glass-shards would pose?
And don’t feminists normally claim that all fraternities have huge supplies of date-rape-drugs?
The only thing that is a point in favor of the story is that the fraternity did not take a lawyer for declaratory action etc..
11/30/2014 5:29 pm
Here’s one of the claims:
Jackie (badly cut up and bruised): I was just brutally gang raped by seven fraternity pledges for hours. Do you think I should go to the police?
Jackie’s friends: No! Don’t do that!
Jackie: Why not?
Jackie’s friends: If you do that, we won’t get invited back!
Yep. Totally seems plausible to me if it’s the case that UVa girls are a bunch of brainless twits.
11/30/2014 5:37 pm
What this reminds me of are the 1980’s stories of repressed memories of child abuse and the witch hunts involving ‘Satanic abuse’ at day care centers. One worker in NJ was sent up for years based upon what seemed to be creative questioning of very young children. We were instructed to ‘believe the children’ because they couldn’t make up these stories.
One youngster testified that this preschool teacher inserted a knife in his rectum. Unlikely to have left no signs but possible, especially if inserted handle first so that the blade never entered. Then he was asked what the teacher did next. He replied that she turned him into a mouse and flew around the room.
Uh, what was that about kids not being able to make things up?
It would not surprise me in the least if something unpleasant - perhaps very unpleasant - happened to this young woman at UVA. However the whole story just doesn’t hang together, just like the Duke rape hoax.
11/30/2014 5:57 pm
After rereading the article, I see that two of the three “friends” of Jackie were male. So I retract my comment that you need to believe that UVa girls are a bunch of brainless twits. Instead, you need to believe that with Jackie standing right in front of them “in her bloody dress”, her friends, no, not merely her friends but her “best friends” said “We’ll never be allowed into any frat party again.”
11/30/2014 6:21 pm
Yes, being invited back to a frat party would be my first thought upon seeing a brutally gang-raped female friend soaked in blood, and I would immediately tell the girl about my concern. If I were a psychopath. A stupid psychopath.
Since I’m no psychopath, my first thought would be to kill the perpetrators, my second thought would be to kill the perpetrators, and my third thought would sensibly be calling the police immediately instead.
11/30/2014 6:55 pm
I’ve written a similar article here:
http://groundreport.com/explosive-allegations-of-sexual-assault-at-uva-but-are-they-true/
11/30/2014 7:44 pm
Yeah, when I read ‘crashed through the glass table’ and then it is promptly forgotten about for the rest of the story, it immediately set off every alarm bell in my head.
How bloody credulous is everybody? Hear a story of a white man being evil, and all logic and objectivity flies out the window - they must be guilty, because everybody knows how depraved and evil white men are.
#whiteprivilege
11/30/2014 7:59 pm
The first time I read the RS story, I was horrified. Then I went back to the beginning, and started over. When I got to this;
“She smiled at her date, whom we’ll call Drew…”
I asked myself, when did it become common journalistic practice to protect the identity of people who mastermind three-hour gang-rapes? Then there’s this;
“As the last man sank onto her, Jackie was startled to recognize him:”
Yeah, I’d be kind of startled to recognize someone in a pitch-black room too. Must be that cologne. We don’t get his name either, although “He attended her tiny anthropology discussion group.” Nor do we get the names of the three friends who told her not to go to the police. Nor the victim’s name. Although it is evident that “Jackie” would certainly know the names of all of them if any of this had actually happened.
The story is fiction, and Rolling Stone’s lawyers are well aware of that fact.
11/30/2014 8:10 pm
So very glad to see this questioning of this story. Here’s another. From the second you step on Grounds (not campus) you have it drilled into your heads that the word”fraternity” is never shortened. Ever. It is part of first year dorm orientation talks. So when the word “frat” or”frats” shows up in quotes, it should immediately raise questions whether UVA students actually used those words.
11/30/2014 8:15 pm
Glass table, were you laying in the glass with men who weigh close to twice as much as you forcefully raping you for 3 hours?
Because your “similar” experience is nothing like what was described. How is this not obvious to you that if simply falling through a table has given you life scars that at the time made you consider a hospital treatment that being brutally attacked on a bed of glass for 3 hours would make it all but certain you would HAVE to get hospital treatment?
11/30/2014 8:39 pm
I think the original post is great at providing perspective. Our BS detectors should definitely be engaged for all of the reasons listed. But the comments that conclude that because detail X is wrong the whole story should be dismissed are have it wrong. Anyone who has endured a three-hour ordeal even remotely like the one described is very likely to get details wrong. That’s why a reporter has to interview all of the witnesses before publishing a story. That’s why law enforcement (and not some silly Dean) has to conduct a real investigation to see if guilt can be proved.
It’s going to be very difficult to find the truth here.
11/30/2014 8:50 pm
Finally, finally, finally…. some people are smart enough to see the absolute BS that the article portrays UVA “frat culture” to be. The author is in absolutely no position to make such heinous and terrible claims about UVA culture. This can be evident from several points:
1) as said above, UVA initiation is in the spring. NOT SEPTEMBER. That entire process is completely non-existent in the Fall.
2) Being a life-time UVA fan and a student here, I have never once heard the “Rugby Road” song described in the article. Erderly makes it out to be a widely known song that everyone lives by. I, nor anyone I have talked to, has ever heard that song. It is obvious that Erderly went digging deep for those lyrics. I’m sure they are probably written down somewhere in some ancient book about UVa’s history, but its non-existent today. I can promise you that.
3) UVA students aren’t animals. No one in their right mind would have a pre-mediated gang rape on chards of glass (which apparently only hurt Jackie…none of the rapists..somehow) and using a beer bottle as a tool. No. Sorry Erderly, doesn’t happen. Yes, sexual misconduct happens every now and then, as it does at most all universities. But not anywhere CLOSE to that extent.
4) Erderly can’t name one of the alleged “rapists” and doesn’t give the name of “Jackie”, nor does “Drew”‘s real name come out. If Jackie knew “Drew”, why isn’t she publicizing his name so that justice can be served? The answer is because it didn’t happen. Thank you. I hope all of you naive, misinformed readers out there think twice about believing every detail of this story.
I don’t mean to sound like rape should be tolerated. It absolutely should not under any circumstance. But I can guarantee you this alleged “rape” did not happen nearly the way it was told.
11/30/2014 8:53 pm
this article is absolute BS. if you believe it, then you are ridiculously naive and misinformed and have no clue what Greek culture entails, because that just doesnt happen.
11/30/2014 9:06 pm
When Jackie finally left the party, bloodied and battered, it seems inplausible that her friends would be worried about getting invited back to a fraternity party…and that Jackie would EVER consider stepping anywhere near a fraternity again. So why wouldn’t they take her to the hospital? That would not keep them from ever attending a fraternity event…who would know exactly who took her there? I can’t imagine thinking like that a 3 AM when my friend was bleeding. And, as someone said, 3 people would never, ever agree to that. NO WAY!
11/30/2014 9:08 pm
If you believe this story, you must believe that pigs fly. This “UVA rape” story is so untrue that it’s almost funny. I cannot believe how many naive and stupid people believe this.
11/30/2014 9:10 pm
If that rape was as brutal as described I truly find it hard to believe that Jackie could stay on a campus for 2 years with those 9 fraternity guys. I can’t imagine that she wouldn’t be running into them with some frequency. The school isn’t that big and there were 9 of them. I know that I would be GONE from there. I can’t imagine not fearing for my safety and my life on a daily basis.
11/30/2014 9:11 pm
I am a woman and a survivor of a sexual assault. I do not understand how in the world someone could decide to tell her story to the Rolling Stones instead of going to the police. Assuming that there is a “Jackie” and that she was raped, those close to her should strongly encourage her to cooperate with the authorities. To make accusations anonymously in a national magazine does nothing more than label ALL members of the named fraternity as rapists. In fact, the media and the public now perceive all male students at UVA as rapists. If it was “Jackie’s” goal to ruin the reputation of half of the student body at UVA and stir up a lot of hatred, she has succeeded.
“Jackie” may have intended to cause national dialogue about how rapes are handled on campuses, but her methods are suspect. For God’s sake, help the authorities find the alleged attackers so that (1) they are prevented from doing this again; and (2) those not involved do not have their reputations ruined. Two years later, half of the fraternity members would not even have been a part of the fraternity in 2012. The Rolling Stones article would have us believe that, each year, all 20-plus new members are introduced into this rape culture and that they all stay quiet about it. Really? The Rolling Stones would also have us believe that this is taking place at all of the fraternities at UVA.
At UVA, it is common knowledge that there is no “Drew” or “Andrew” in the fraternity. No one in the fraternity worked as a life guard on campus. If these facts have been changed to protect “Jackie’s” identity, then what other facts have been changed? And, how the heck can anyone on the UVA campus defend themselves against the allegations when key facts have been changed? Do you really want to be the guy that comes out and says this isn’t true or, if it is true, I didn’t know about it? In light of the current atmosphere, that would not be well received.
Why is the University, the media and the public taking all of this at face value and not demanding that we withhold judgment until “Jackie” comes forward and presses charges. If this is true, it should be played out in the court system not in some article designed to provoke hatred and ruin reputations.
11/30/2014 9:46 pm
It’s not impossible that a rape is faked, of course. However, I’m not sure there’s reason enough stated here to accuse Jackie and/or Erdely of fabrication. Everyone should be careful about false accusations with everyone involved - those who accuse people of rape, and those who accuse people of fabricating crimes.
Some possible explanations for the accusations made here:
I think Bob R is exactly right that details of anything gets fuzzy. I have been through a traumatic experience (something entirely different from a rape), but have trouble remembering now what happened when, who was where, etc. Someone who was with me remembers details differently. Eyewitnesses are notoriously wrong about details and identities. However, they are not usually wrong about whether a crime was committed.
Is it not possible that someone at some point in the three house turned a light back on, but this detail never made it into the story? Or that her body got moved off the glass? Or that, in her fear and confusion, she mistook a broken beer bottle under her back for a broken glass table?
Jackie had reported her rape to Eramo well before the article came out, and Eramo did not deny any part of the story. There are other named sources in the story who have heard Jackie tell her story well before the article was written. In any case, this does not seem to be a Stephen Glass/Jimmy’s World situation - the reporter did not make up the story. If the story was fabricated, it must have been by Jackie.
Let’s assume, then, that the journalist is honest, since we have no evidence that she did falsify anything. None.
The article indeed says that one of the three “psychopath” friends, Randall, did want to help, but was talked out of it. Erdely says that Randall refused to be interviewed. The reason he cited was loyalty to his fraternity. He could have cited that he didn’t really know what happened, or her story was unbelievable. He didn’t.
Erdely says in WaPo interview that she spent weeks corroborating the account, and admits she doesn’t know what went on the room, but finds Jackie credible.
Where does it say the event was part of initiation or pledging?
The college president admits there’s a sexual assault problem by saying that if they’ve tried to sweep it under the rug, they haven’t done a good job.
Emily Renda, who uses her name, notes that many people did not belittled it and avoided her also. Jackie’s friends may be more typical than people like to believe.
A gang rape happened — not in a war zone or misogynistic culture — years ago at that same fraternity to Liz Seccuro, and one of her three attackers confessed. So fraternity gang rapes do happen. She would not have been vindicated had he not confessed years later.
11/30/2014 9:56 pm
[…] QUESTIONABLE: Is the Rolling Stone Story True? […]
11/30/2014 10:32 pm
This story is BS. Please, the acts portrayed in the story are barbaric to the point of it being inconceivable outside of an invading army in a third world country. If you think seven high achiever students at a school like UVa would torture another human being like this for three hours, I have a bridge I want to sell you. The story is crap.
11/30/2014 10:49 pm
The only questions that remain are: will these preposterous accusations ever be examined by law enforcement? or will we see the usual cowardly waffle when it comes to examining possibly false accusations?
Kudos to Mr. Bradley for airing his concerns, but we require a solid, old-school *fact-checking* journalist will make it their *purpose in life* to find out the truth about what very well may be remembered as:
The UVa Rape Hoax.
Further. If this story is revealed to be the wretched and outrageous mess of lies that an increasing number of people smell it to be — who will be held to account? how will those who have already ruined the reputation of these fraternities be punished?
An eminent place in the history of whistle-blowing awaits the person courageous enough to expose these terrible, indeed evil, lies.
11/30/2014 10:51 pm
^^^
“who will make it their purpose in life”
11/30/2014 10:57 pm
“Everyone should be careful about false accusations with everyone involved – those who accuse people of rape, and those who accuse people of fabricating crimes.”
I’m having trouble viewing these as equivalent. Either a crime happened or it didn’t. This article is resulting in substantive changes to UVA, namely more or less the gradual elimination of Greek culture altogether. Taking a moment to say, “is this believable?”, isn’t quite in the same league.
11/30/2014 11:39 pm
Thank you for writing this!
There are some bad men out there. Date rape, non-consensual and quasi-consensual sex are a reality. But the Rolling Stone article hardly deals with this. Instead, it wants to peddle this story about a brutal gang rape involving eight people that took place for hours on broken glass while a girl was stone sober, after which her friends took one look at her, covered in blood, beaten, bruised, and told her that she shouldn’t report the rape because it might hurt their social life if they accompanied her to the hospital. What an ever-loving crock of crap!
Here’s a question. What happens to a freshman who has really bad grades first semester and then is headed towards a buckshot second semester — in other words a student like Jackie? At most schools academic dismissal would arrive at the end of the first year with a mandatory one-year waiting period before readmission. Any scholarships would likely be lost.
When Crystal Gail Magnum found out that the police were about to involuntarily commit her to a psychiatric facility she suddenly remembered that she had just been raped by a bunch of Lacrosse players. Her rape claim solved her problem. When “Jackie” found that she was going to fail to make her grades for a second semester, likely with a buckshot, she suddenly found it expedient to report one of the most violent, horrific rapes I’ve ever heard of that had happened to her six or eight months before but that she had just never gotten around to telling anyone about. Puleese!
A friend of mine had a false domestic violence claim filed against him by a girl he was breaking up with. The girl was nuts. His career was almost ruined and he was looking at the possibility of jail when he discovered that the girl had made an absolutely identical claim against another boyfriend five years before. It was just like in Gone Girl, with an “attack” that was so detailed that no two men could do it twice. The charges were dropped.
My friend was lucky, but the fact is that women lie about rape and assault all the time, just as people in general lie about things when it suits their interests. The best way to tell whether or not a story is false is first, is there a long delay in reporting, and second, is there a substantial benefit to the woman to be known as a rape victim.
For example, the Ohio University coed who had sex on a public street last year screamed “rape” the next day when her reputation was ruined and she was looking at being expelled from school or her sorority. This went on for a week with virtually everyone backing up the woman, since they “never” lie about rape. And then they found plenty of film footage where the guy was suggesting that he stop and the girl was telling him repeatedly to keep going. She wasn’t raped; she just regretted getting drunk and having sex in public and was willing to send some guy to prison to save her sorority membership or reputation.
I don’t believe “Jackie” was raped. I don’t even believe she had a bad experience. I think she had a problem and solved it by spinning a yarn, and in the process found a group of women who are supportive and comforting to her.
I suspect a careful analysis of many of these hazily reported, after-the-fact rapes would find that many are in fact evidence of a factitious disorder found in women with borderline or narcicistic personality disorder similar to Munchausen’s Syndrome. Certainly there is medical evidence that some women have reported these factitious rapes and eventually come to believe that the stories that they tell others are true.
I understand the cycle of women not wanting to report rape because of fears that they won’t be believed. But in the case of an outlandish story such as “Jackie’s”, we as a society have a right and duty to demand some type of evidence and proof before ruining the reputations of individuals, organizations, and schools.
12/1/2024 12:15 am
The biggest reason to doubt the story:
What assurance did these intelligent and talented young men have that their victim would not report them to the university or to the police?
12/1/2024 12:37 am
What do you know? The author is backing off the story now that authorities are involved. This is gamergate all over again.
Slate’s doubleX Podcast also backs off the veracity of the story a bit. Transcribed from 16:20:
Rosin:
What made you believe that her story was true? What were the most convincing - if you were her lawyer in court, what would make you - how would you prove her case?
Erdely:
Um, well look I am not a lawyer, I am a journalist. But I will just say I found her story to be very- I found HER to be very credible. Um, she - you know, I put her story through the wringer to the extent that I could. I spoke to, you know, virtually all of her friends, um, to find out what she had told them at various points.
Rosin
And those, those match? Like the friends she spoke to at the time said ‘yes she had bruises from going through the glass table’ or whatever?
Erdely
Well you know I found it to be very convincing. And, and, I think that - And the degree of her trauma? There is no doubt in my mind that something happened to her that night. Um, what exactly happened? You know, I wasn’t in that room. I don’t know.
http://www.slate.com/articles/podcasts/d…rting.html
12/1/2024 1:17 am
I find it absolutely terrifying that the “biases” referred to in this blog post - the constellation of assumptions and expectations, inherent in all human psychology, that definite the limits of what is and is not believable - are simply assumed to be biases IN FAVOR of rape victims, and AGAINST (alleged) offenders; that journalists in particular, and the public in general, are more likely to believe a false accusation than they are to dismiss a honest-to-god victim. Study after study after study has shown that campus sexual assault is FAR MORE PREVALENT than most everyone - journalists included - previously believed. There is no question our society is biased when it comes to sexual assault on campus: as is made abundantly (and sickeningly) clear in the comments above, we are far too quick to dismiss accusations, far too eager to exonerate alleged offenders, and far too happy to perpetuate the fantasy that campus rape is a rare and extraordinary event and not the widespread and routine practice that virtually every available study and statistic says that it is.
And as for this particular allegation - i.e. gang rape by a fraternity…well surely this, at least, is too crazy to believe. No way our nation’s good collegiate sons could ever engage in such a brutal ritual - right? From the Washington Post:
—
But as shocking and as horrifying as Jackie’s story is, it bears a striking similarity to other stories of fraternity gang rape, a survey of academic literature shows. The narratives found in such analyses hint at a decades-old pattern of behavior as well as a generational shift in perception — from the era of “Animal House” to modern times, when campus rape is more closely scrutinized. The studies convey a culture of impunity, where group-think and hyper-masculinity treat sexual assault as something ordinary, even desired.
“There is a similarity of pattern in these incidents,” Lois G. Forer wrote in the foreword to the landmark 1990 book “Fraternity Gang Rape.” “The men are on their own ‘turf,’ whether it be a part of a park, a shack, or a fraternity house….
Rolling Stone’s story of Jackie echoed the pattern Forer described, which isn’t restricted by ethnicity, campus ranking or nationality. Even the line that drew Jackie into the darkened room — “Want to go upstairs, where it’s quieter?” — is well-documented in fraternity rape literature. The fraternity brothers “tried to pick up women using lines such as, ‘Want to see my fish tank?’ and ‘Let’s go upstairs so that we can talk; I can’t hear what you’re saying in here,’” found Lehigh University researchers who spent months studying fraternities and rape.
Rolling Stone called the boy who lured Jackie upstairs “Drew.” He facilitated and watched the sexual assault and “gave instruction and encouragement,” the magazine reported. The presence of such a “male leader” is also common, found researcher Peggy Reeves Sanday, who authored “Fraternity Gang Rape.” “Often the male leaders characterize their roles as passive despite the fact that they stage scenarios.”
Such behavior, to be clear, is not endemic to fraternities, or likely even the majority of them. As Rolling Stone also conceded: “Most of that hooking up is consensual.” Academics have likewise learned female students consider many fraternities “safer” than others. But there are also “dangerous” frats. Lehigh researchers A. Ayres Boswell and Joan Z. Spade, who spent months studying both kinds in the 1990s, said a very different structure governed each.
http://goo.gl/wJSyiz
—-
QED.
12/1/2024 1:19 am
It really is sad how UVA’s President Sullivan is reacting to this “story.”
Thomas Jefferson would be extremely sad that nobody at UVA seems interested in pursuing facts.
The feminist agenda out NYC is obvious. But who would have thought that people on the UVA campus, as high up as the president, have an ax to grind against their own university. They seem a lot like the mob in Ferguson, burning down their own place of employment.
12/1/2024 1:30 am
I’m a woman and if I was gang-raped by seven men for three hours, even Obama won’t stop me from walking into a police station with all my wounds and naming my rapists that I known.
Usually victims don’t report their rape because:
1) it’s hard to prove because lack of evidence (he said she said cases)
2) It was only one rapist so it is easier to avoid him and pretend it doesn’t happen.
But a gang-rape with multiple damning evidences like wounds and blood for both rapists and victim? Police and prosecutors would immediately take this case and can easily win it. Not only that it is more dangerous for a victim of gang rape to let the rapists let loose because any of them can threaten her life again.
It’s incomprehensible in a first world country that any victims of a gang rape won’t report it immediately. Even Liz Seccoro reported her gang rape to the police, and that was 20 years ago. There is no reason not to report it in 2014.
12/1/2024 2:23 am
Strangely enough, this relatively small detail in the story might be the most suspicious:
“She e-mailed Eramo so they could discuss the attack – and discuss another matter, too, which was troubling Jackie a great deal. Through her ever expanding network, Jackie had come across something deeply disturbing: two other young women who, she says, confided that they, too, had recently been Phi Kappa Psi gang-rape victims.”
Meaning there were 3 separate girls gang-raped at the exact same fraternity in a 2 year span. NONE of which ever filed a police report, and only Jackee notified anyone at the university. The author of the article doesn’t even try to interview either one of these girls, despite the fact that they’re the best chance at this late date of corroborating Jackee’s story. She just drops them. Weirder still, Jackee doesn’t seem remotely guilty about what happened to her new friends. Even though by going to the police she could have prevented both of them from being violently gang-raped. From what I can tell they’re not even the slightest bit pissed. Why don’t they all file a police report together? I know the trail’s cold, but there’s THREE of them.
12/1/2024 2:33 am
Feminists push the rape fallacy to promote their anti-male anti-family agenda. Most accusations of rape by women are false. There is a false rape accusation epidemic in the USA; these feminists just wish to make young college men’s lives even worse by ensuring they don’t get a fair shake when they are falsely accused. Most real rapes in the country occur in prisons and jails, perpetrated by black men against white men BECAUSE they’re white.
12/1/2024 2:39 am
Kelsy, it’s the same reason why some people are skeptical about the rape accusations against Bill Cosby.13 women are claimed to be raped but not one of them reported to the police and only talk about it after the statute of limitation for reporting rape passed. There could be one or two of the rape accusations that are true but it’s really hard to believe that Bill Cosby raped all the 13 women and managed to make all of them kept silent for years. Even Mike Tyson managed to be convicted of rape from one accusation, so it’s not Bill Cosby will be untouchable if many women accused him of rape.
12/1/2024 2:39 am
And Mike Tyson was innocent.
12/1/2024 2:45 am
if you’ve ever been to a UVA frat party or really any frat party in Virginia, you would know this scenario sadly happens way too often. As someone who went to several UVA parties & whose school is in the sick fight song by UVA, I had a friend raped at a VA school at a frat party decades ago, and she will never be the same. The guy tied her to a chair in a basement during a party & stole her virginity & dignity. While all the facts are probably not 100 percent accurate in the Rolling Stone story, rape on Virgina college campuses happens way too often & gets hidden by the administration. It’s time for everyone to focus on the real issues here. Rape is never ok, no matter what the circumstances!
12/1/2024 3:02 am
If you don’t want the administration to hide it then report it to the police. I don’t understand why everyone saying the frats culture deters someone from reporting it to the police, I don’t see anyone from the university or fraternities actively stopping anyone from walking into a police station.
12/1/2024 3:24 am
Easy to miss Sue Kaplan’s sneer at “armchair detectives”. This translates as people who raise real problems with the proffered story but who, of course, can’t offer definitive solutions. In essence, it’s a sneer at critical thinking if it doesn’t support Sue’s ideology.
It’s entirely possible that, as Sue predicts, the police will make arrests. There are many previous instances, from Salem on, to show that law enforcement officials are not immune to popularist pressures.
12/1/2024 3:47 am
Someone, no one here ever said “Rape’s okay.” I’m not sure anyone’s ever said that anywhere actually. When it comes to rape, people are usually against it, or in very rare cases, for it, but never lukewarm on it.
12/1/2024 5:25 am
The fact shes trying to prove the completely insane fantasy of “rape culture” is as big a red flag as can exist. These lunatics inability to see the irony is truly astonishing. Shes talking about “rape culture” in her story (fantasy) which says society condones rape, while watching the world implode as soon as the article is read. Even the governor has commented while outrage surrounds the world on fire and no one points out the reaction to this “rape” story was so huge it completely contradicts “rape culture”. In fact, it destroys the absurd theory altogether.
But, her insane hysteric “rape culture” advocacy aside, I cant shake how her imaginary friends reacted. She has just been gang raped, beaten and bleeding, and not only do they not want her to go to the police, they dont even want her to go to the hospital? Because they wont be invited back to frat partys? She was just assaulted in one of the most brutal ways imaginable at a frat party and her friends want to go to another? I would think any normal person would never attend another party on that campus for obvious reasons.
12/1/2024 6:32 am
Jesse_e, people aren’t quick to dismiss claims when they involve police reports and physical evidence. Making a claim in RS without names or any evidence isn’t credible.
12/1/2024 8:16 am
I know many of the brothers of the fraternity in question. I have reached out to several and have learned several interesting facts that have reinforced my initial skepticism of the story. Of course, you won’t read these facts in Rolling Stone or other mainstream news orgs because “rape culture”. Take these for what they are worth, but the fraternity in question has documentation of many of these points.
1. No Phi Psi brother worked at the Aquatic Fitness Center pool as a lifeguard during the entire year of 2012. No brother even worked at the Aquatic Fitness Center at all. They can prove this.
2. Phi Psi did not have a date function the weekend of September 28th. They did not even have a party. UVA Greek life is required to document any and all social events with the IFC in the week leading up to them. Phi Psi has this schedule available and the IFC can also show that there were no events at the house that weekend.
3. The article claims that this was some sort of pledging initiation for new brothers. While this is unbelievable from the start, it is also factually inaccurate. Phi Psi (like almost every other IFC fraternity) does not, and has not ever, taken pledges in the fall. UVA greek life rushes in the spring exclusively. Phi Psi is required to provide their national organization with proof of a formal initiation of every new brother when it happens. The entire pledge class was formally initiated in the Spring of 2012. The entire narrative of this being some savage rite of passage was the first red flag of this story, and it absolutely should have been.
4. There are a few more tidbits I would rather not leave here.
Rape is a terrible, atrocious and unacceptable crime at its very core. I think, as we all do, that perpetrators should suffer the absolute maximum punishment available by our legal system. This case, however, will never reach the legal system as it will not be prosecuted. The accuser never had any intention of seeking legal recourse for her claims. This is why she went to Rolling Stone. Expect this story to quietly disappear.
12/1/2024 8:23 am
also from the washington post article:
“Magazine writer Sabrina Rubin Erdely knew she wanted to write about sexual assaults at an elite university.”
12/1/2024 8:53 am
From Sabrina Rubin Erdely’s own website: “Several of her articles are in development as Hollywood films.”
No wonder the RS article had a heavy emphasis on making this a sensational, headline grabbing smear campaign and zero emphasis on fact checking!!
12/1/2024 9:23 am
When you’re dealing with feminists you’re dealing with hysterics.
If you are skeptical about a story so sensational without a shred of proof thats filled with obvious inconsistencies, then you’re a “rape apologist” or a mysogynist.
If you carefully weigh the words and and are critical of claims and doing a little due diligence without accepting the given narrative at face value, the way you might if you were considering purchasing a new car, to these people that means you are in support of “rape culture”.
Justice be damned, you aren’t allowed to withhold judgement, you’d better join their lynch mob without using any scrutiny or you’re an evil person.
These Social Justice Warriors are truly devoid of any rational or morality.
12/1/2024 9:35 am
from her own website:
“Sabrina Rubin Erdely is an award-winning feature writer and investigative journalist”
http://www.sabrinaerdely.com/bio.html
but is she really investigating, or just looking for stories - true or false - that promote her own agenda?
12/1/2024 9:58 am
[…] I’ve not really believed it since it first went up at Rolling Stone. Just didn’t sound right. Others now seem to be thinking that way too. […]
12/1/2024 10:04 am
How many of the oh-so-sober skeptics here are women who have been raped?
12/1/2024 10:10 am
I know little about fraternities, being a foreigner and all that. But I was able to look up this particular one being mentioned. Some 80 members in that house.
At a guess that means perhaps 20 new ones each year. We know which year this was alleged to have happened. We’d like to talk to, or about at least, 7 of the likely 20 who joined that year (assuming that “pledge” equals “becomes member” which of course it must for some but I don’t know the drop out rate).
That’s not a population that it’s going to be difficult to question. And the Prisoner’s Dilemma, while much to much of it is made in game theory, is a real occurrence.
It strikes me that an actual criminal investigation into this just isn’t going to be that difficult. Even in the absence of any formal accusation or naming there’s a very small target group to be questions. Any cop worth his salary should be able to work through this one.
Be interesting to find out what happens…..
12/1/2024 10:11 am
“How many of the oh-so-sober skeptics here are women who have been raped?”
Knowing a rape victim short circuits a person’s rational facilities?
How does that work?
12/1/2024 10:18 am
I started smelling something in the 3rd paragraph, well before the rape when the author described “UVA’s aura of preppy success, where throngs of toned, tanned and overwhelmingly blond students.”
12/1/2024 10:58 am
Further to the point about the song, the one whose lyrics are posted intermittently throughout the article. I have been associated with UVA for over 30 years. I was in a fraternity. I knew all the songs, including this one. But the one I knew had two verses. Just two. And Not one of the 25 people I discussed this with at a football game two weeks ago had ever heard of even the second verse.
12/1/2024 11:32 am
One other point, *all* rape allegations have a very high level of falsehood. I’ve heard that something up to half of rape accusations are false. Our “campus rape industry” promotes making rape accusations. The woman gets coveted victim status and no one is allowed to question what she says.
Of course real rape is serious and bad but there’s so much false rape out there, without some evidence (DNA, injuries, credible witnesses) I just don’t believe it.
And this story reads like a “bodice ripper” fantasy with a feminist victim-cult twist.
12/1/2024 11:36 am
I’ve been a female student at many a frat party, and I don’t buy this story at all. The glass part of course makes no sense, but the friends’ reaction is the real kicker. I tell my friends I had just been violently, forcibly raped by 7 men, and they advise me not to report it? I don’t have a single female acquaintance I can imagine doing that. 7 UVA students (these kids are hyper achievers, some of the brightest of the bright, not backwoods rednecks we’re talking about here) would gleefully participate in a horrific rape, and risk their college careers and entire futures? One or two maybe, but 7?
12/1/2024 11:49 am
Has anyone ever seen a fraternity house? No one would buy a glass coffee table for one. It would be broken in the first two weeks.
But anyway the police can easily verify this story by going to the house and lifting glass fragments from the carpeting. And they can probably recover a receipt for the purchase of a glass coffee table and then there will be a lot of ‘esplaining about why there isnt one in the house.
And lets suppose the police CANT find anything…. Of course the nefarious frat members could have removed and replaced all the carpeting and covered up all the evidence. Well they could do that- but it would be totally inconsistent with the complete lack of any concern about evidence shown by the attackers.
All these privileged, white blond(!) attackers- you think that they would have some concern about being discovered since Sabrina knew who Drew was, the location where she was taken, recognized people from class and was left alone after the attack to gather as much evidence as she wanted. She could have even called the police from the room- a complete lack of caution from the “attackers”.
So there must be plenty of evidence for the police to gather, then.
12/1/2024 11:58 am
One point of clarification, UVA students don’t rush until second semester. I can’t imagine that the frat was having “an initiation” four months prior to rush. It’s not impossible but makes you wonder about that part of the story.
12/1/2024 11:59 am
UVA female here. I’ve been raped here, at a fraternity. Ashamed to say I didn’t report it. I confronted him and threatened to press charges. After two weeks of deliberating, I felt I had scared him so bad that I’d gotten my revenge, and was actually satisfied with that. It really did assuage the trauma. I betrayed my fellow females by not reporting it. But that’s what I did.
I say all this to clarify that I’m very biased against frat culture; and I still think Jackie’s story is not believable, for the following reasons:
1. Phi Psi is not one of those ole boy sexist frats RS refers to. There are plenty of those at UVA but Phi Psi is not one of them. They are the “nice guys”. I’m not saying this absolves them but RS has already done weak research here and seems to conveniently use blanket stereotypes to its advantage.
2. Phi Psi doesn’t have pledges in the fall; they rush in the spring. If this happened in September there would not have been pledges there.
3. It seems like a big coincidence that Jackie would have had not one, but several sick twisted friends; as mentioned above two girls saw a friend bloody and punched from a 3-hour gang rape and BOTH discouraged going to the hospital, the police, the school authorities? They would have to be nearly as sadistic as the assailants here. And having seen this horror happen at a frat, why in the world would they
worry about not being invited back to such a horrific place?
Add to those evil friends the others who encouraged Jackie to get over it when she continued to lament the crime. “Why didn’t you just enjoy it?” Seriously? Do you know anyone in your life that would suggest you sit back and relax while being punched in the face and gang-raped in glass shards for 3 hours. Sorry — just not going to happen. My rape was nothing compared to this and my friends went absolutely bezerk. I mean, it’s all we talked about for a month. And they were furious I didn’t go to the hospital and the police. Maybe I just have very different friends but I just can’t buy the discrepancy.
4. Why should I trust a reporter that hasn’t done her homework? We’re there any Phi Psi lifeguards then? Did Phi Psi actually have a party that night? (Shouldn’t be hard to determine by finding some emails, etc.?) Did the reporter talk to ANYONE about the incident, besides the school? Seems like horrible fact-checking and shoddy investigation. I guess all that could thwart the drama she sought.
12/1/2024 12:07 pm
On top of the inherent inconsistencies that have been competently pointed out above, the timing of this story emerging during the latest leftist social justice offensive is cause for questioning it’s veracity. Just as the Obama administration starts pushing its campus rape star chamber legislation and the NFL funds the “No More” propaganda campaign, we get a horrific tale of the malfeasance of evil white privilege-types victimizing virtuous and saintly women.
And what is the first thing the University does? Use the story to fuel the final attack on the last bastion of male culture on the campus. Gramsci would be so proud.
12/1/2024 12:08 pm
I thought of it some more.
The fundamental premise of bodice-ripper romance fantasies is: there’s a man the woman desires, and that man is so overwhelmed with his desire for the woman that he rips her bodice open and “has” her. “I am so irresistible to the man I want, he can’t control himself.”
Real rape is mostly men of low desirability who force their way with women of a status that would never voluntarily have sex with them. It’s the homeless black guy who sees the young attractive white woman who would never agree to sex with him.
In this story, she says several times how much she desired these frat guys. She describes them as attractive. She took 3 hours getting ready for her date. She is worried about her reputation and desirability with them.
That is a perfect set-up for a bodice ripper. “I schemed for years to get invited to the prince’s ball. I spent a day getting on my best dress for it. I went there and the prince saw me and couldn’t control himself and so he raped me!”
She adds on a layer of feminist trolling, about powerful high-status white guys being bad, but really those are the guys she obviously wants!
This story is absolutely non-believable. File a police report. Produce some evidence.
12/1/2024 12:31 pm
First, my position after first reading the story was that if it was 60% true it was still deplorable - really, no one has been expelled for rape from UVA since 1998 even though many have been caught at plagiarism and cheating and some have confessed to rape?
As to the objections about her insights into the contents of a “pitch-dark” room, please - a room that seems pitch-dark at first might not seem so dark after ones eyes adjust.
The objections about the broken glass (a droll reference to Stephen by our host) are new to me, and an excellent point.
I found the reaction of her friends to be utterly implausible UNLESS we hypothesize the victim was raped or roofied, in which case her friend’s dismissal of the whole thing seemed possible (especially if she had a history of drunkenness). Of course, if she was roofied, why not tell the Rolling Stone? And if she was drunk then she lied about that important detail.
As an unhelpful near-clue: at a NY Times comment board a poster mentioned (without linking) a UVA comment board or website where someone in a Gender Studies role who claimed to be familiar with the victim and the incident disputed both the reaction of the friends and the administration. I haven’t been able to track that down.
12/1/2024 12:38 pm
Here is the comment:
http://op-talk.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/21/does-the-university-of-virginia-have-a-culture-of-silence-around-sexual-assault/
Barbara Nordin
This is what Claire Kaplin, a faculty member at the Women’s Center whose title is Program Director of Gender Violence and Social Change, had to say on a Facebook thread:
I’ve
learned from some of the students involved or interviewed that the
reporter actually made some of that up. The scene about whether or not
to go to the hospital never happened, and that when they wanted to take
her to the police, she didn’t want to go. That jibes with what I heard
from administrators.
Then, in a second post, responding to another person in the thread, she wrote:
Cora
what I understand is that she [Jackie, the alleged victim] had much more support than the reporter
stated. That some of the comments by friends were not said at all (the
whole conversation telling her not to report). Both survivors were
devastated when she called them to clear quotes. They learned that their
“off the record” comments were not off the record. Also she really got
the students riled up when she characterized them as passive,
conservative, and not “radical” enough. You and I both recall some
pretty creative protests from years past.
In other words, someone who should be at the forefront of advocating for victims of sexual violence is responding to the article, at least in part (and when she assumed, most likely, that others on the thread would agree with her), by (1) calling the alleged victim a liar, and (2) trashing the reporter’s ethics.
12/1/2024 12:42 pm
OK, a stint with Google tells me that the name is correctly spelled “Claire Kaplan”. Here Facebook page is here.
https://www.facebook.com/clairskyk
A quick glance tells me that, as expected, she is anti-rape (OK, who isn’t?). As to her position on the Rolling Stone story, I’m still looking.
12/1/2024 1:13 pm
I, too, would have been skeptical had not the exact same thing happened to me in the fall of 1982. Unlike “Jackie”, however, I am not afraid to name names. The only difference is that it was a same-sex rape.
I was a naive freshman at Columbia College in New York City. A group of fraternity brothers at the West End Pub (where I had NOT been drinking) ask me to help them carry some glass tables to their house. Sweating from this task, I unsuspectedly joined them in the shower afterwards.
I dropped the soap. Seizing upon this opportunity, the ringleader impaled his penis in my anus and carried me downstairs that way. The remaining brothers ran ahead to College Walk, where they prepared my rape-bed by smashing the glass tables on to the cobblestone.
From midnight to noon the next day, I was gang-raped in public by all 700 members of the Class of 1983. As the glass shards stripped off all my skin, I was doused with gasoline and ignited by a blowtorch. At 10:43 am (I remember the time because I checked my watch after they temporarily released me to attend my Contemporary Civilization class) President Michael Sovern walked by and asked if it was “hot enough for me.”
This is the first time I have shared my story. I was afraid until now, and with good reason. The leaders of the rape-gang were Barack Obama and Eric Holder.
12/1/2024 1:18 pm
There’s another issue that I don’t think was raised. Had Jackie gone to the hospital / police that night the assailants would have been easily identified. Healthcare workers would have documented evidence on Jackie’s person and police would have got evidence from the room in which it happened. 9+ young men would have faced profound legal ramifications. (Unless you think the Charlottesville police and the university hospital are also part of the “rape culture”.)
When gang rape like this does occur, the rapists rely on anonymity and / or threats to keep the victim from talking (or worse, they kill her). That didn’t happen in this story.
9+ bright young men who were easy to identify violently raped a girl and then (presumably) returned to the party not caring who she told.
12/1/2024 1:34 pm
S.S. — I have wondered about that hospital thing very much, and it feels just a little convenient-if there are no hospital records, it is very hard to prove that it didn’t happen. Same thing with details like the room being “pitch black” and no one seeing Jackie leave the fraternity-all these details, in the worst case scenario, could be deliberately constructed because they make this story virtually impossible to disprove.
12/1/2024 1:37 pm
The story is preposterous.
What’s even more preposterous is how the general public swallowed it, hook, line, and sinker.
Even more preposterous is how people in positions of authority, e.g. the publishers of credible news sources and the university administration, seem to utterly credulous. This is one of the very first debunkings I have read.
Why aren’t people more skeptical? Yes, if I were the victim of such a crime, I would hate to have my story doubted. But that is a necessary cost: In a civilized society, we need evidence, not just words.
Otherwise, we are a society of lynch mobs and vigilante justice. Unfortunately, it is looking more and more like we are. Social media has transformed virtually the entire populace into a virtual mob. May God have mercy on the souls of those caught up in this mob.
12/1/2024 1:41 pm
[…] UVA, the entire Greek system is under indictment, even among its staunchest allies, but Bradley writes on his blog Shots in the Dark that his experience with Glass taught him to distrust reporting that […]
12/1/2024 2:22 pm
I do think it happened, but I think some details were dramatized. Anyone who went to UVA would have noticed the timing was wrong for this to be an initiation. Fraternity rush isn’t until second semester and this all happened just a few weeks into the school year.
12/1/2024 2:36 pm
Huge detail that everyone seems to be overlooking: the UVA Greek system is on a second semester rush, yet the Rolling Stone article very clearly states that this took place within the first few weeks of school. Fraternities are doing their best to make friends with freshmen guys at this point… pledgeship does NOT occur at this point in the year. Yet the dialogue of the rape scene certainly makes it sound like an older brother is coercing some younger guys into gang raping this girl as part of an initiation task. Something is off here. I am certainly not denying the bottom line truth of the article, but the journalism here is certainly not above suspicion.
Just now read that the last commenter made this same point. Oh well… still very much worth considering.
12/1/2024 3:04 pm
I know women who have been raped, who have chosen not to report the rape because of repercussions;. The only defense an accused person, whether guilty or innocent, has is to say the woman is mistaken or lying. and in the past, defendants could get away with making some horrible stuff up about women. I also believe alcohol plays a part in what happens between young men and women. Sometimes men take advantage of a drunk woman who they know does not have the capacity to say no. And sometimes the guy doesn’t have the capacity to recognize a woman who can’t say no.
BUT this story reeks. The allegations here are of a gang of 9 psycopaths, who make up 20% of a fraternity who brought their dates to a date function, left them downstairs for 3 hours to go upstairs and rape someone else’s date. They came downstairs sweaty, smelling of sex and miraculously devoid of blood stains after banging the girl on shards of glass or getting any of her blood on themselves, and continue partying. And there were never any rumors of this rape, or the two others that took place at this fraternity within a small time period.
‘
Let’s not forget that these psychopaths are fearless. They gangrape in front of a pledge (nonexistet in September at UVA according to other posters) whom they barely know, confident in the knowledge that strangers will never report their crime.
More importantly, all of the allegations concerning the culture of rape at this fraternity are based on a real rape that took place over 30 years ago, and the uncorroborated declarations of anonymous “Jackie”. Jackie apparently informed the administration several months later and told her story publicly over and over, and been hit in the face with a beer bottle because she is not afraid to talk about it. She is mad at the administration for not doing anything, but she refuses to go to the police, which would have prevented the rape that took place at the fraternity after hers. She knows of two other uncorroborated rapes at this fraternity, & as angry as she is, she still won’t press charges.
Also, remember that in what was termed as a weak response by the world that Theresa Sullivan said something about Jackie not having given all the details. Is it possible that was her noninflammatory way of saying the story changed substantially?
Erdely, the author has admitted that she was looking for a privileged fraternity in an elite school, implying these things don’t happen in middle class America. And she either was too lazy to seek corroboration from the other alleged fraternity victims, witnesses, alleged rapists, their friends, etc., or she did and they refused to speak or didn’t tell her what she wanted to hear. In any case, the entire allegation is uncorroborated.
We all have our experiences that color our perspectives. A rape survivor will naturally give Jackie a greater benefit of the doubt because of what they themselves have survived. But I still find it appalli\g that in a university that considers itself intellectually elite, the students have thrown brick into a room where a kid was sleeping and the faculty thought it was appropriate.
A couple of responders above stated that there was no party onthe date in question, there is noone at the frat who has ever worked as a lifeguard at the aquatic center, there are no rushees in September, etc. That would have been very easy for a reporter or even UVA students who rushed to judgment to verify.
There was nothing brave in Jackie’s coming forward. She lobbed an accusation under protection of anonymity. She didn’t even name names. Instead all members of Phi Kappa Psi have been painted with the same broad brush as alleged rapists. Many of them included their fraternity membership in the resumes that went out this fall. Good luck finding a job. Many are waiting for their bosses to figure out that they are potentially rapists. They can’t defend themselves against an unknown assailant.And they certainly don’t want to come forward with death threats hanging over them. This was a hack job and Jackie, the author and Rolling Stone need to either put out all of the information so that any rapists can be prosecuted and the innocent protected, or expect to write big checks to those maligned.
BTW, those of you speculating as to Jackie’s sexual fantasies and stating that women love to report rape for attention give men a bad name. And you weaken the crediibility of real people questioning the validity of the article.
12/1/2024 3:10 pm
Excellent post, Skeptical Feminist. And I agree very much with your last paragraph. We can debate the truth of this article without indulging in sexist nonsense.
12/1/2024 3:38 pm
Unfortunately, Skeptical Feminist and Richard Bradley, the bookshelves are full of rape fantasies. They don’t call them “bodice rippers” for nothing. It’s not sexist to observe this.
12/1/2024 3:45 pm
Well, what now Richard?
No more comments are needed: it’s time for action. It’s time to blow this open. Methodically. Legally.
Reason has picked up the ball. It’s time to state and state clearly: we will not accept lies as journalism; we will not be dupes of ideology.
Time to expose the terrible UVa Rape Hoax from top to bottom.
12/1/2024 3:53 pm
Shortest, I’ll go this far: I agree that this account does have elements of paranoid fantasy in it. (It could still be true, though-you’ve got to add that caveat.) I just want to be careful about going to far in attributing motivation to any possible deception; one doesn’t want to make the same type of mistake that Sabrina Rubin Erdely may have made.
12/1/2024 3:58 pm
The first thing a real journalist would do is hightail it down to UVa and bang on the door of the local police.
Where are we at in the investigation of this extraordinary alleged crime? are there indictments coming down?
We deserve to know the facts about the ongoing legal investigation.
Nothing else matters.
12/1/2024 4:03 pm
Richard,
You’re absolutely right. No one should speculate any further about motives. None of that matters now.
All that matters is a relentless pursuit of the facts of the matter.
I imagine a kickstarter to fund your trip to UVa would be *very *successful. I’m not joking in the least.
12/1/2024 4:06 pm
I would try to obtain a list of UVA Aquatic Center student employees during September 2012.
Then I would try to determine which one(s) had Phi Kappa Psi membership.
Then I would try to contact anyone who was both PKP member and an Aquatic Center employee, and find out which one is Drew.
Then I would try to get a statement from Drew.
12/1/2024 4:06 pm
The sad thing is I remember hearing stories like this when I went to UVA parties 35 years ago. How does this sort of thing become so embedded in a culture?
12/1/2024 4:08 pm
UVA alum and reporter here. I totally agree that there are some things that just don’t add up. Journalism 101 stuff. How RS could go to press with this without even *attempting* to contact the alleged assailants boggles my mind.
But to suggest that this is a Tawana Brawley situation seems unnecessary to me.
While I see she’s gotten a passing reference in the comments here, you have to remember that a woman named Liz Securro was gang raped (yes gang raped, by 3 men) at that very same fraternity in the fall of 1984. Her story has never changed, not since it was published in a pseudonymous interview with the school paper right after it happened, right up until a few years ago, when one of her assailants contacted her to apologize and she (successfully) pressed charges against him and he went to jail. So we have an account of something similar happening there, an account that has both stood the test of time *and* held up in a court of law. Which makes me dubious that this incident was invented out of whole cloth. But I strongly suspect that some of the details have been embellished for dramatic impact. Which is unfortunate because it only provides further fodder for those who refuse to believe that sexual assault is a very real and all too common problem on college campuses.
12/1/2024 4:11 pm
Richard,
You are about to be inundated by professional trolls with their “stories” from decades ago. This is all to distract attention from what may be *the* journalistic scandal of this young century.
Open an account on Kickstarter and let’s get this thing going!
12/1/2024 4:36 pm
Doubting Thomas,
I’ll bet you anything that “Jackie” got her inspiration from the Liz Securro story. Same school, same fraternity, similar circumstances, a few details changed here and there.
12/1/2024 4:38 pm
Richard,
Have you seen this from “Jezebel”?
http://jezebel.com/is-the-uva-rape-story-a-gigantic-hoax-asks-idiot-1665233387
That is the sort of “journalism” we have on the internet. That is what has replaced real journalism.
“A guy by the name of Richard Bradley.” “Bradley’s giant ball of shit.” Etc.
It’s an outrageous hit piece.
12/1/2024 4:40 pm
Richard
Fair enough, but silencing skepticism by labeling it “sexism” is another, similar fallacy.
I can’t tell who is the bigger criminal here: Jackie or Sabrina. Go get ’em!
12/1/2024 4:43 pm
Richard,
If you want to see the grim reality of what passes for “journalism” on the internet — go read Jezebel’s hit piece on you.
It’s a disgrace.
12/1/2024 5:04 pm
It makes no difference whether the allegations are “factually” true. There have plenty of times blonde preppy fratboys have gotten away with rape. Now it is payback time. The grandfathers of these fratboys used to lynch blackmen for rape. They never bothered with fact-checking. The only time we should be sceptical is when rapists of color are accused. We all know how white girls lie in those cases — just look what Bill Cosby is going through.
12/1/2024 5:12 pm
“I imagine a kickstarter to fund your trip to UVa would be *very *successful. I’m not joking in the least.”
i’m in for $100.
12/1/2024 5:15 pm
rivelino,
I’ll see you and raise you: I’m in for $1,000.
Nothing is more precious than the truth. Nothing.
12/1/2024 5:20 pm
I should add: that $1,000 would be gifted with no strings attached.
I’d be honored to donate that amount simply to acknowledge a rare burst of courage and integrity; and however Mr. Bradley would choose to use it — if he would accept such a gift — would be up to him.
Of course I would love to see an article or book on this UVa affair — no matter what the outcome — but I am greatly heartened just to read Richard’s blog post and some of the comments here.
The truth still matters to some people.
12/1/2024 5:41 pm
[…] no proof that I said that before, guess what, people started pointing out the story didn’t add […]
12/1/2024 5:49 pm
Whole lotta posts not making it past the filter today, huh? Yep. I’ll give you points for the accuracy of your blog title, but this is the first time I’ve seen a guy who’s managed to make an actual career make him and his buddies sound exactly like a bunch of dateless 16-year-old gamers on reddit. That’s impressive.
I know it’s completely maddening to you that people are taking rape and harassment seriously now, but I really don’t care. My sympathy for middle-aged, highly-privileged, wildly selfpitying guys is at about nil these days.
A thought: Maybe if you don’t want so many people believing rape allegations, y’all ought to think about teaching your sons how not to rape, and not feeling so entitled yourselves. People believe it because of the vast number of women who’ve been raped. We all know perfectly well that it’s not some collection of a couple hundred guys raping the hell out of everyone, and that it’s not rare. And we have enough experience with rape to know what happens when women try to deal with it, let alone report it.
12/1/2024 5:58 pm
The article doesn’t have to be true.
It just has to support feminist ideology; it serves a purpose.
Over the summer, Congress held hearings about the ‘epidemic’ of college sexual assaults so the timing of the article and agenda driven narrative is clear.
But the central lie is obvious.
A Frat ‘rape room’ * consists of at least one (or more depending on the space) old, heavily soiled mattress haplessly strewn on the floor. No such room would ever have a glass table (This isn’t a Victorian Drawing Room after all).
* ‘Rape room’ being a room designated for consensual carnal abandon. The more the merrier!
12/1/2024 5:59 pm
I’d donate to kick starter to pay for Richard to go to Virginia and do some old school shoe leather reporting to verify this story.
12/1/2024 6:09 pm
Let’s assume the RS story is 100% accurate. It’s still a despicable piece of journalism because now every Phi Psi is potentially a rapist. Once you’ve named nobody you’ve named everybody. If RS really thought anonymity was crucial, they should have made the fraternity anonymous too. The story would be just as credible/not-credible. So even if this author has got all her facts straight, she’s still maligned lot of innocent people.
12/1/2024 6:10 pm
so far we’ve got $1,100.
i say our goal should be $5,000.
12/1/2024 6:25 pm
If this special prosecutor UVA appointed is really going to look into this, we’ll have our answer.
If there’s no Phi Psi lifeguard, and there really wasn’t a party that night, (both of which I’ve seen asserted by online Scooby Doos, but nowhere official) one would hope he could get to the bottom of it.
12/1/2024 6:28 pm
By the way, just as the Trayvon Martin case resembled Tom Wolfe’s “Bonfire of the Vanities” with George Zimmerman farcically standing in as the “Great White Defendant,” this UVA tale has numerous parallels with Wolfe’s “I Am Charlotte Simmons.”
12/1/2024 6:59 pm
A point that seems to have gone overlooked here is that “Jackie” bled onto the carpet for 3 hours. Ever tried to clean out set-in blood stains? I suggest that the carpeting would have had to been replaced shortly afterwards, to hide the evidence. While it’s possible that the floor was hardwood or tile, or such, I submit that the story would have been substantially different, such as the inclusion of “lying in a puddle of her own blood” as a story element, if that were the case.
Verifying the delivery of new carpeting to the frat house wouldn’t be difficult, if it had happened. Sure, you can speculate that the delivery was made secretly, somehow, but in doing so, one must assume the story true, and then arrange the evidence, such as it is, to fit. Conspiracy theorist thinking does that.
Two final points. First, while it is possible that the author embellished “Jackie’s” tale in one or more ways, then the piece produced was not journalism, and should have been labeled appropriately.
Second, “Jackie” may believe she is telling the truth, and not be lying in the sense that she’s knowingly delivering a falsehood with the intent to deceive. Memory is tricky stuff. It’s malleable, it’s self-serving, and it tends to “fill in gaps and details”. It can also conflate two events into one event, and exaggerate with repeated retellings. This is often the case with things like “past life regression”, “alien abduction”, and “recovered memory” stories. Those people are not “lying” in the conventional sense, since they really believe that their memories are true, even if the events recounted have little connection to reality.
It’s easy to speculate how such a story could have evolved. As an example, perhaps the teller actually fell through a glass table, at some point. Maybe she had a drunken threesome with a couple guys, and perhaps she was also raped at some third point, in some way. From there, it’s easy to see how memories that seemed to fit could creep into a tale, and blurred memories might be enhanced “just a little” with each re-telling, even without the story being a tool in a cause that the teller believes in passionately.
So in conclusion, it’s entirely possible for “Jackie” to believe her story to be true, and even have some “true” memories included. That, however, does not mean she’s recounting an actual event.
12/1/2024 7:10 pm
Begins to smell a lot like Duke Lacrosse Redux. One’s gotta wonder if Stuart Taylor and KC Johnson are yet on the case?
12/1/2024 7:53 pm
If Jackie didn’t go to hospital, who picked the glass out of her back and sewed her up?
12/1/2024 8:19 pm
Apparently hardehar failed to read the RS article, which made exactly the opposite point-it alleged that campus rape was caused by a small number of serial sociopaths.
12/1/2024 8:27 pm
The “second rape” delivered in the form of her so-called friends giving such horrible, for her, but convenient-for-the-narrative advice…just does not ring true.
12/1/2024 8:33 pm
The story is absurd, to the point that I’m annoyed at the way you keep apologizing for doubting it. What pre-existing biases could you possibly have that would make this seem plausible for even a second? This is a B-movie plot; a man-hater’s cartoon idea of what fraternities are like.
I suspect the mindset of the fanatic is at play here. They know the truth, so they believe it’s OK to fudge a bit for the sake of a greater good. They know that fraternities are bad, so it’s fine to make up a rape if that’s what it takes to stop them from practicing their ‘rape-culture’.
These people are nutty as squirrel poo.
12/1/2024 8:34 pm
Our host’s post is getting a lot of mainstream media attention today, December 1: Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, etc.
Judith Shulevitz is talking about it on Facebook.
I’m glad I finally got up the courage to post about this post back on Saturday.
12/1/2024 8:37 pm
My favorite: “Grab its motherfucking leg”.
Get it? She wasn’t a human being. She was an “it” See how they dehumanized her. It’s amazing how this tidbit fits perfectly into the feminist fantasy about rape.
I gotta tell ya, if I was involved in a gang rape and one of my rape buddies said, ‘Grab its motherfucking leg’, I would have stopped and said, ‘Dude, really? It? I’m not fucking an ‘it’, I’m fucking a her’.
This story has as much credibility as ‘Hands Up, Don’t Shoot’.
Many people have offered excellent ideas on how to track down people, evidence, and confirm a timeline of people and places.
I do hope someone takes up the challenge and exposes the truth.
It’s all there to be discovered.
And one last point about the broken glass.
How many men are going to risk having sex with a woman thrashing around in broken glass in the dark?
I don’t know about other men but I’d be very concerned about my penis in a situation like that.
12/1/2024 8:38 pm
Why is it that rape accusations rape accusations must be accepted at face value? No one is saying “This can’t be true, because rape doesn’t happen!”. We are simply saying this particular story has elements that stretch the boundaries of credulity. If this story is concocted or even wildly exaggerated, it does a terrible disservice to real victims of rape by impugning their credibility. As a woman and mother of two daughters, I would want the perpetrators of a fraud like this (if it is one) to be called out and punished.
12/1/2024 8:55 pm
Technical oddities aside (magic glass shards, friends with peculiar priorities, newly discovered exits, etc.), this story relies on one assumption that I find impossible to believe: that seven young men consciously and willingly violently raped a girl, and that everyone they knew helped them cover it up.
Oh I know that there’s a ‘culture of rape’. But this isn’t that type of rape. This isn’t failing to respond to no; this isn’t going further than she wants; this isn’t even overpowering his date in the back seat cuz he knows she wants it.
This is intentional and violent rape of a stranger.
To believe this story, you have to start with an assumption that young fraternity men have no moral conscience whatsoever. None.
Further, you have to believe that Their Privilege was such that they didn’t care that what they were doing was not only immoral but illegal. And that they engaged in violent rape knowing full well that their identities were either known or could become known with the slightest inquiry.
Now the image of Immoral Privileged White Fraternity Men engaging in group rape may sound entirely believable to those who already hate Immoral Privileged White Fraternity Men, to anyone who has ever been in the fraternity system this is nonsense.
Yes, young fraternity men will party. And try to seduce girls. And get away with cheating if they can. And think they are better than everyone else. And come up with secret rituals and wacky initiations and generally behave stupidly.
But when you tell a story about a group of people which fits all of the hate-based notions that you have about those people, but which is entirely alien to anyone who doesn’t share your hatred, it doesn’t hold up well.
12/1/2024 9:16 pm
My concern is that the Rolling Stone editors cynically gambled that the story’s shock appeal outweighed their responsibility to journalistic practices — gaining yet another hyper-popular entry into the even more epically popular Men Are Horrible meta-narrative that no-one can get enough of these days … Calculating that, should the story turn out to have been a fantasy, it’s much easier to publish an apology for any lapses in editorial rigor then to have missed out on this particular publishing gravy train.
It seems like every week these days we have to endure yet another tale of the limitless victimization of women by all men. It’s like the 5th graders have taken over the media. Which sounds funny, but this is anything but.
12/1/2024 9:20 pm
So she’d been punched in the face and was lying on broken glass and still thought it might be a “prank”?
Haha, good one guys, okay flick the lights back on and let’s get back to the party…
Also, it’s impossible to enter a pitch black room from even a dimly lit one - light doesn’t care about doorways. There is no way she couldn’t have at least seen that there were others in there.
It’s also a trope of shitty fiction writing to miss out significant details to cover for lack of imagination, and so the waking up at 3am part is extremely convenient. Bad movies use edits like this to cover plot holes.
At the very least the writer has taken liberties with poetic license unbefitting of a journalist. And if it is entirely fabricated, then it’s actually really creepy to think about the disgusting things going on inside the writer’s head.
12/1/2024 9:30 pm
UVa alumna here (very recent grad)
Thank you for injecting some much needed skepticism into this story! I thought I was alone in having doubts about it. Several things mentioned in the RS article are hard to believe. Fall pledges (UVa does spring rush). Not being noticed leaving while, persumably severely injured, from a date function (date functions are usually well lit and have a much smaller crowd compared to a normal frat party.) The behavior of Jackie’s ‘friends.’ Jackie’s attack on the Corner (there is no way that happened without a police report, absolutely none. The Corner is crawling with police. I know from experience.)
When I first read the RS article I was horrified, but, you’re right, something about this story just doesn’t feel right.
12/1/2024 9:43 pm
Story smells like bs to me. To many irrational actions by the accuser to protect a lie. Any lawyer looking at this knows its made up.
12/1/2024 9:45 pm
I can’t attest to the veracity of this girl’s story, but I can testify to the way a glass table top breaks from personal experience. I was sitting at our glass kitchen table several years ago and dropped something on it. I believe it was a heavy bottle filled with liq
12/1/2024 9:47 pm
liquid. The glass broke into two large pieces. Neither my daughter nor I was hurt. The glass did not shatter into shards. Luckily for us.
12/1/2024 10:01 pm
Whatever happened in the Vanderbilt dorm room that night — the young men involved took steps to cover it up.
That much, at least, is known.
It came out in court, unchallenged, in the case against four former Vanderbilt University football players charged in the rape of an unconscious 21-year-old female student on June 23, 2013. The top prosecutor later would read text messages in court that flew in the aftermath between the four and an older teammate as they scrambled to sort through the drama that had unfolded the night before.
The upperclassman later pleaded guilty to taking part in a cover-up. The four others await trial on far more serious charges: aggravated rape, aggravated sexual battery and related counts.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2014/11/02/vanderbilt-rape-trial-starts-monday/18369825/
According to police, testimony and court filings, Gillette Hall surveillance footage captured Vandenburg and co-defendants Brandon Banks, Cory Batey and Jaborian “Tip” McKenzie carrying the limp woman to Vandenburg’s second-floor room, including at least one stop when a photo was taken of her partially exposed body.
But that video wouldn’t be seen for another two days.
Once inside the room, authorities said, the men allegedly raped the woman several times while Vandenburg made cellphone photos or videos that he soon shared.
ibid.
12/1/2024 10:09 pm
Judith Shulevitz (wife of Nicholas Lemann, former dean of Columbia Journalism School) writes about Bradley’s post in The New Republic:
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120450/sabrina-rubin-erdelys-uva-gang-rape-reporting-raises-questions
12/1/2024 10:23 pm
This has been said a million times, but I’ll repeat it.
The glass in a table top is made of either tempered glass or annealed. Tempered glass is also used in the side and back windows of cars. It is extremely strong, and if it breaks, it explodes into tiny pebbles. It is so strong that typically it is only broken when force is applied at a sharp point. A rock, for example, can do a pretty good job of breaking tempered glass. Breaking tempered glass with your body is very difficult.
Annealed glass is the “normal” glass we are most familiar with. When it breaks, it does so in shard of various sizes. These shards have very sharp edges. I have merely handled broken glass and gotten surprisingly nasty cuts. Curiously, your automobile windshield is made of annealed glass, but it is two layers stuck together with a plastic sheet, like double sided tape. It’s actually pretty easy to break a windshield.
The glass tables I have seen (and broken!) are made from annealed glass. I think tempered glass is infrequently used because it is so expensive.
12/1/2024 10:30 pm
@ hardehar: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
12/1/2024 10:54 pm
“PC” morons run uh muck….
12/1/2024 11:27 pm
how refreshing to see not everyone is buying this story so easily. I was shocked and disappointed to see, on UVA’s fb page, that virtually 100% of the alumni who were leaving comments were all too willingly believing this yarn spun from the darkest feminist fantasies.
I find it next-to-impossible to believe this could have happened at UVA, at least as it was told. Think about it: UVA is not an easy school to get into. A lot of really really smart people go there. But these 7 young men apparently had no plan to get away with one of the more heinous felonies, other than the blithe assumption that, “Ahhhh, she prolly won’t go to the cops.” That assumption is apparently what they were ALL willing to wager their futures on, because if they had been wrong, they would be spending a good portion of their lives behind bars, and in a “federal, pound me in the ass prison”. They would have left a ton of forensic evidence both inside the girl and inside the room. There would’ve been no getting away with it if it had been true. None.
And wouldn’t you know it! Jackie just so happens to be friends with the most sociopathic, narcissistic trio of friends at UVA who just happen to convince her not to report the crime. Apparently, NO ONE at UVA has a conscience.
I hope there is an intrepid reporter or investigator or two out there who will relentlessly try to get to the bottom of this. If any UVA officials start talking, it is going to be very satisfying watching this fabulous tale come unspun. There may be a seed of truth to the story, but I’m willing to bet a good 80%+ is horseshit. BUT, if it is true in any relevant facts, I want these animals hunted down and prosecuted. But even there, they’ll get away with it since there won’t be any physical evidence. So even if it is true, there’s no way to serve justice. Thanks Jackie.
12/1/2024 11:37 pm
and by the way, it won’t be hard to figure out who “Drew” is. There’s only one pool at UVA (unless my memory is totally failing me or they’ve added a new one). It’s at the Aquatic and Fitness Center (AFC). If there were to be a criminal investigation, you could easily subpoena the employment records at the AFC and figure out which male lifeguard was a 3rd year student during Jackie’s first year. Was he in the Phi Psi fraternity? I’m sure Phi Psi didn’t have more than one member working at the AFC anyway, so finding out who “Drew” is is going to be extremely easy.
Put that guy in front of an experienced police detective and we’ll start making progress.
I’ve also wondered, publicly on fb, if Jackie’s preexisting mental health before the rape has ever been examined. I wonder if perhaps this was real in Jackie’s mind but nowhere else. Can’t help but wonder.
I’m still betting this story is mostly hogwash. And for the sake of UVA, I hope I’m right, but if I’m wrong, so be it. Bring on justice.
Oh, and that sexual assault anthem of which the author cites so many passages? I never once heard it or even heard OF it my entire four years at UVA. I wasn’t in a fraternity so maybe I missed it, but I had plenty of friends who were in frats and spent a fair amount of time on Rugby Rd during my tenure. Never heard so much as a whisper about that song.
12/1/2024 11:41 pm
Another Tom Wolfe novel of relevance besides “I Am Charlotte Simmons” and “Bonfire of the Vanities” is “A Man in Full,” where the central action of the plot is that the coed daughter of Georgia Tech’s Board of Governors has accused Heisman Trophy winner Fareek Fanon of rape, and the entire power structure of Atlanta, white and black, swings into action to make this problem go away before football season.
12/1/2024 11:42 pm
Jezebel.com, Gawker’s rape sub-blog, posted an “article” about this one and I’m glad they did, because perhaps now some of their insane readers will read this and get an extremely rare opposing view in their heads for once. Anna Merlan is just another in a very long line of embarrassing-ass content producers for that site, and she’ll probably get fired soon. I definitely believe that this “Jackie” story is complete bullshit. The whole thing just doesn’t add up.
12/2/2024 12:04 am
Richard-
Thank you for sparking a meaningful debate about responsible journalism. I know little about UVA or its fraternities, but I do know that the RS article has the potential to ruin lives. By failing to identify the alleged rapists, all male students at UVA are now perceived to be part of a “culture of rape.” If an investigation ensues and it turns out that the incident was fabricated or even just exaggerated, the repercussions will cause future rape victims to doubted. With such enormous consequences, journalistic integrity demands that the incident be reported in an article that is beyond reproach, and it was not.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120450/sabrina-rubin-erdelys-uva-gang-rape-reporting-raises-questions
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2014-12-01/the-uva-rape-story-gets-more-scrutiny
http://online.wsj.com/articles/bret-stephens-uva-ferguson-and-media-failure-1417478164
12/2/2024 1:06 am
[…] under scrutiny, as The College Fix‘s Jennifer Kabbany notes: Some of the claims, like the use of marijuana in a gang rape and rolling around in glass for three hours, are just […]
12/2/2024 1:19 am
To understand the meaning of this story please google “Dominated by Doug” ; it is a story that happens at this or a similar university and about an incident that sounds very similar.
It is possible the writer used that story as her inspiration.
12/2/2024 1:36 am
I submitted the following comment at Jezebel. It’s “pending,” but I highly doubt the thread Nazis will post it. The posted comments are 99% slavishly supportive of the narrative and Anna Merlan. The pending comments are much more evenly split. I expect the critical comments to be gone by morn.’
Pending approval Nicholas Stix [to] Anna Merlan
“‘She won’t say, for example, whether she knows the names of Jackie’s alleged attackers or whether in her reporting she approached ‘Drew,’ the alleged ringleader, for comment. She is bound to silence about those details, she said, by an agreement with Jackie, who ‘is very fearful of these men, in particular Drew. . . .’”
Anna Merlan, can you please help me? As soon as I read those words, my B.S. detector went off, and I haven’t been able to turn it off since!
While it is customary these days to not identify by name a rape victim without the vic’s permission, the notion that an “investigative reporter” could get away without naming anyone involved (vic’s friends, known attackers, etc.) is such a red flag that no reasonably intelligent person, journalist or civilian, would buy it. It screams, “Hoax!” If you were an investigative reporter, as you claim to be, you would never have fallen for it.
P.S. By the way, Merlan’s supporters and other feminists are all “freeping” this page as “offensive.”
12/2/2024 2:03 am
[…] Richard Bradley read the story with a respectful but skeptical eye and came away with several important questions. After fretting about whether Erdely had done her due diligence and contacted the alleged attackers, […]
12/2/2024 2:04 am
P.P.S. Although Anna Merlan’s rant is nothing but despicable click-bait, she doesn’t have the decency to give you any clicks in return. She has used a link service that cuts you out of any hits from the links to you.
That “black hole of the universe,” Wikipedia, has done the same thing for years.
12/2/2024 2:27 am
@Richard Bradley. I don’t know your personal stance on copyright or plagiarism, but you might want to look at the Michigan Standard’s use of your story. It’s hard to be certain, but it appears to be your article, in whole or in part, with a comment inserted in text no different from the text used for your article as published there.
Malice? Doubtful. Strikes me as a “quick and dirty” attempt to publish a story on the topic, by someone who probably should know better, but was rushed and/or lazy. But that’s me, YMMV.
12/2/2024 5:42 am
While stationed in a remote place in Germany, a young, white female soldier snuck past the CQ on duty and visited a black male soldier. The CQ desk was in the middle of the hall with female rooms taking up half the hall and, over a weekend, empty leadership offices making up the other half. The black soldier was within weeks of leaving Germany.
Shortly after entering his room, she started screaming and came down to the the now occupied CQ desk to say that the soldier tried to rape her. Almost immediately, a senior NCO was on the scene (suspiciously) and MP’s were called. We all had suspected a relationship between the young female and old NCO (oh, the old NCO was also well known for being stationed at different locations of our BN until soldiers were popped for hash use). The trial eventually came around after a few months and when other platoon members for the black male and white female (old NCO was Platoon Sgt) were questioned about character of the accused…MANY pics were submitted of this innocent little white girl performing gang bangs and more with not only the black soldier, but most of the male members of the platoon. Needless to say, it seemed a sham and the truth came out. Nothing ever happened to the female for acts unbecoming or anything else…meanwhile a young man almost went to prison. Until names are named, police are involved and this woman comes forward…the truth will never have a chance to come out.
12/2/2024 7:14 am
Ms. Rubin-Erdely deserves credit for her literary performance in “A Rape on Campus: A Brutal Assault and Struggle for Justice at UVA.” Mr. Bradley rightly cites Tom Wolfe’s novels and picks up on how her obsession with broken glass suggests the movie “Shattered Glass” about Stephen Glass.
Also, this Rolling Stone article, with its prominent use of the word “brutal” reminds me of the most famous work of literature published in Rolling Stone, Hunter S. Thompson’s “Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas: A Savage Journey to the Heart of the American Dream.” Rereading it for the umpteenth time, I was struck by the prominent role played by broken glass in Raoul Duke’s hotel room in the last chapters.
12/2/2024 7:21 am
The ultimate joke in “Fear and Loathing” is that almost all the brutal and bizarre violence in the book actually happens only inside Raoul Duke’s head.
12/2/2024 7:33 am
[…] problem is that, more and more, people are questioning the truth of the Rolling Stone […]
12/2/2024 7:47 am
Merlan CYA un the comments: “In the very unlikely event that Erdely’s story is proven to be false, I will be the first to say I was wrong and publicly eat crow. I bet good money that neither Soave nor Bradley will do that if the police investigation goes the other way. I hope I’m wrong about that.” A straw man to boot. Neither Soave nor Bradley will have anything to eat crow about, as neither have said the story is false. All they have said is it is deserving of scrutiny, which clearly, it is.
12/2/2024 7:51 am
[…] is terribly surprising, journalistically, in “Is The Rolling Stone Story True?” I didn’t go to journalism school but every editor I’ve ever worked with on a hot […]
12/2/2024 8:22 am
Just read Orwell - Animal Farm and/or 1984. What most people don’t realize is that the feminists and other prog-marxist social justice warriors have already won. This incident and ginned up story is a symptom, not a cause.
There have been many incidents of social justice warrior types faking complaints of rape and racism on college campuses today. In fact this ‘story’ is actually stunningly similar to a Veronica Mars episode - really a continuing story line - about rape hysteria on campus and how radfems make up incidents to have the university come down on the Greeks. Think about that - this entire scenario was already a cultural meme in 2007 to the point where it was a theme of a sitcom focused on young women.
I almost find it amusing that many supposedly less radical and “not crazy” types are now finally objecting to this obvious insanity. Where were you 10 years ago? Where were you on Title IX? VAWA? Divorce and custody law reform, in which there has been some progress but in many jurisdictions, family court and divorce court are a nightmare for men?
What we are really seeing now is the “red claw and tooth” of society that is highly permissive towards women, empowering a female centered cultural agenda. They aren’t bothering to hide it anymore, they aren’t bothering to make their lies even seem plausible any more - and do you know why? They don’t have to. Get it - they have already won.
There is nothing any of us can do about this. Go read the tripe that passes for thought wrt “women’s issues” or gender studies. These ideas have been bad for a very long time.
So when someone rears up their head now, after having ignored all the clearly alarming garbage coming out of radfems for 20+ years, well let’s just say that it’s not impressive. .
12/2/2024 8:37 am
Bimblebee, actually you can still report your rape now and it might not even go to the trial. Sometimes because of lack of evidence or if you don’t want to testify in court then it won’t go to trial. But the most important thing is now the police have a report of your rapist and if he repeated it again then they have a solid case against him. Remember that rapist are always serial rapist.
This is why we want victims to report their rape immediately. Their memory is still fresh and there is still physical evidence. Later if you felt like not prosecuting the case.then you can just refuse to testify so they will drop the case, but your report will be recorded for future reference.
12/2/2024 8:38 am
Perhaps the real reason the girl does not name her alleged assailants is the lesson learned from the Duke Rape Case. Although the so-called “victim” wasn’t prosecuted as she should have been, Mike Nifong was.
University of Virginia students, I should imagine, come from upper-middle class families, with about as much disposable income to hire excellent counsel as the “Duke Boys.” It’s much safer to have the ficticious “rapists” remain anonymous than to risk lawsuits against “Roling Stone,” the slimy feminists, and, for that matter UVa itself.
12/2/2024 8:57 am
[…] is rape.” I fell prey to confirmation bias, as was made painfully clear in a subsequent post by Richard Bradley, which asked whether Sabrina Rubin Erdely’s story of the gang rape of a University of […]
12/2/2024 9:50 am
[…] That’s just for starters. You can read a detailed exposition on this incident here. […]
12/2/2024 11:30 am
[…] speech” incident occurred on a college campus that didn’t turn out to be a hoax. We may have another one on our hands with this University of Virginia fraternity gang rape accusation. If what this woman told Rolling […]
12/2/2024 11:32 am
Too much is being made in these comments (and elsewhere) of the shards of glass. The article only makes four claims that could be related to that: “a body barreled into her, tripping her backward and sending them both crashing through a low glass table”, “There was a heavy person on top of her, […] sharp shards digging into her back”, “Jackie fell into a stupor, [..] her mind leaving behind the bleeding body under assault on the floor” and “the barefoot, disheveled girl hurrying down a side staircase, face beaten, dress spattered with blood”.
The claims made in the article do not necessarily imply that Jackie was raped for three hours while lying on broken glass. Similarly, they do not necessarily imply that Jackie would have been seriously injured by broken glass.
“Crashing through a low glass table” does not necessarily mean that the glass broke. The frame could have broken, or the table could merely have been knocked over or even pushed aside with the glass top coming loose and falling out.
“Sharp shards” certainly implies broken glass, but I think a reasonable inference is that Jackie was simply mistaken about what was digging into her back (and the Rolling Stone reporter careless in accepting what Jackie said uncritically). There could have been any number of objects on the floor, especially if a table had just been broken or knocked over and two people violently knocked to the ground. Almost anything could have been digging into Jackie’s back, and it would have felt to her like “sharp shards”, even though actual shards of glass would probably have led to life-threatening injuries.
And while the article claims that something was digging into Jackie’s back as the rape began, it does not claim that that stayed the case during the entire three-hour ordeal.
As for the claims of blood - specifically, a bleeding body during the assault and a blood-spattered dress afterwards - it’s hardly a stretch to think that a violent rape with blows to the face and sexual penetration by a beer bottle would lead to bleeding, even without any glass shards.
I think there are many good reasons to be skeptical of Jackie’s claims, or the reporting thereof. But it would be a mistake to dismiss them by saying “there’s no way she could have been raped for three hours while lying on broken glass.” The article does not claim that, nor is it a necessary implication of what the article does in fact claim. Similarly, objections such as “how could she recognize anyone in a dark room” fall short; the article says the room was dark when they entered, but not that it stayed pitch black the entire time, and at any rate a room that appears too dark to see in at first may actually have more than enough light to see in once one’s eyes have adjusted to the light level, which takes some time.
Focus on the big picture claims, which are frankly astonishing and require far more corroboration to support than the reporter has done. Don’t get caught up in the minutiae, which may be poorly recalled by the victim, poorly reported by the author, or poorly understood by the reader, and which at any rate are unimportant.
12/2/2024 11:42 am
@ Eddie
“Focus on the big picture claims, which are frankly astonishing and require far more corroboration to support than the reporter has done. Don’t get caught up in the minutiae, which may be poorly recalled by the victim, poorly reported by the author, or poorly understood by the reader, and which at any rate are unimportant.”
Great post.
12/2/2024 11:44 am
There’s an obvious mistake that the author makes and is provable. When I was at UVA they switched fraternity rush from the fall semester to the spring semester. This is still the case. The incident takes place “4 weeks” into the fall semester yet during the ‘attack’ someone yells out “don’t you want to be a brother? We all had to do it, so you do too”. A fraternity wouldn’t have pledges until 4-5 months later. This is a fact that is provable and at a minimum proves at least one fabrication in the story.
12/2/2024 11:47 am
Glass, whether shattered or intact, is a major literary symbol used repeatedly in Erdely’s article. The writer’s deft use of glass as a multipurpose metaphor — for danger, violence, brutality, virginity, trust, fragility, transparency, etc. — helped give the story its gigantic impact on readers.
Whether Erdely was intentionally or unintentionally calling attention to her former colleague Stephen Glass, the subject of the biopic “Shattered Glass,” is more of a reach, but I wouldn’t completely rule it out.
This article is a pretty interesting literary concoction to get almost every one of its numerous readers to take it on faith. Studying its techniques carefully might be informative to anyone who wonders why we’re so gullible today and what can we do about it.
12/2/2024 11:52 am
Why would any girl, in their right mind, tell their friend who had been gang-raped at a fraternity party not to go to the police because they didn’t want to not be invited to fraternity parties? Fraternities who have been serially gang-raping party going girls for YEARS?
12/2/2024 12:01 pm
Here’s another incident involving glass:
“But payback for being so public on a campus accustomed to silence was swift. This past spring, in separate incidents, both Emily Renda and Jackie were harassed outside bars on the Corner by men who recognized them from presentations… One flung a bottle at Jackie that broke on the side of her face, leaving a blood-red bruise around her eye.
“She e-mailed Eramo so they could discuss the attack – and discuss another matter, too, which was troubling Jackie a great deal. Through her ever expanding network, Jackie had come across something deeply disturbing: two other young women who, she says, confided that they, too, had recently been Phi Kappa Psi gang-rape victims.
“A bruise still mottling her face, Jackie sat in Eramo’s office in May 2014 and told her about the two others. … (Neither woman was willing to talk to RS.)
“As Jackie wrapped up her story, she was disappointed by Eramo’s nonreaction. She’d expected shock, disgust, horror.”
We hear these repeated horror stories involving glass phallic symbols, but nobody who knows Jackie for a long time in the article pays much attention to them. Dean Eramo has been listening to Jackie’s stories for a year by this point. Apparently, it will take something bigger than a man breaking a bottle over her face for Jackie’s latest story to get much reaction from the Dean.
The Rolling Stone writer tries to get around the problem that few people who know Jackie well believe her conspiracy story about the pre-planned gang rape by positing a second conspiracy, this one to cover up the first conspiracy.
12/2/2024 12:06 pm
Here’s more of Ederly’s Shattered Glass symbolism:
“The first weeks of freshman year are when students are most vulnerable to sexual assault. … Hundreds of women in crop tops and men in khaki shorts stagger between handsome fraternity houses, against a call-and-response soundtrack of “Whoo!” and breaking glass. “Do you know where Delta Sig is?” a girl slurs, sloshed. Behind her, one of her dozen or so friends stumbles into the street, sending a beer bottle shattering.”
Beer bottle as phallic symbol made literal in the rape scene, beer bottle as container for the alcohol that facilitates so much unwise sexual activity, breaking glass as symbol of dangerous Southerners uttering their terrifying Rebel yells, etc. This is propaganda of quite high quality.
12/2/2024 12:11 pm
J’accuse: 68 % of UVA students pay the in-state rate:
http://www.virginia.edu/studentaccounts/tuition_and_fee2013-2014.html
Not necessarily “upper middle class”…just sayin’….
12/2/2024 12:12 pm
Shorter: “If the glass was annealed, the truth was concealed!” Great work, guys - now back to the Mystery Machine!
12/2/2024 12:13 pm
Just wanted to mention a few things about the story that you couldn’t know if you don’t/didn’t go to UVA that immediately raise red flags:
1) There aren’t fall pledges for most fraternities at UVA, Phi Kappa Psi included-so it is unlikely this was an initiation ritual
2) The 9 men allegedly in that room either committing rape or watching would have collectively represented roughly 20% of Phi Kappa Psi’s total membership- a pretty huge number to conveniently disappear from a party for 3 hours
3) Email records and IFC party records show no evidence that there was ANY event- party or date function-at Phi Kappa Psi on the night in question.
4) Parties (and particularly date functions) at UVA don’t go on till after 3 AM- they rarely make it past 1:30 or 2. There’s no way that the event was still in full swing at that time. Having lived less than 200 yards away from Phi Psi, I can attest to this personally
12/2/2024 12:37 pm
rococo - LOL - I like it and will save it for later
12/2/2024 2:00 pm
If true, I say hang’em higher than Haman! But as it stands we have an anonymous allegation against, unspecified people. What are the police going to do? File charges based on a Rolling Stone article, and then pray a witness/victim shows up to testify…
Again, if true, or even close to happening as alleged, the guys in the story are absolute monsters. But I do think that several liberties were taken in the portraying of the scene and story itself. Maybe by Rolling Stone did it, maybe it was by “Jackie,” but if that was done, it is a grave disservice to “Jackie” as a victim, and to other rape victims because it will only add to skepticism people might have about rape stories in the end.
As a small side note, I lived on Ruby road for 2 of my four years as an undergrad there, and until the article came out, I had never heard, nor even heard of, the “Rugby Road” song so prominently displayed in the article, and written as if it was the school’s fight song taught to each group of incoming students.I think it was added to try and build an already emotionally charged piece into a crescendo of anger against all the blatant rape that is apparently going on at each frat house on the grounds a hazing/initiation process for every fraternity?
It is also frustrating to try and have a reasonable discussion about the article without be rabidly shouted down as defending/upholding “rape culture” simply because you ask a question about anything in the article as seemingly hyperbolic or peculiar. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, but what other crime is considered to have happened until disproved???
12/2/2024 2:04 pm
So, in the pitch blackness, she knows it’s 9 guys. Seven of whom rape her, and 2 of whom watch. In the pitch blackness. How could they see anything?
12/2/2024 2:17 pm
I am a UVa alum, and a human being, so the Rolling Stone article cut me to the core. Let me say upfront that I am not a rape apologist and that I believe the story COULD be true. But one thing that stood out to me after I finished reading was the author’s use of the “rape song”, woven verse by verse throughout the article. I spent four years on that campus relatively recently and have never heard of that song. After talking to probably 15 schoolmates, I have found exactly one person who thinks it sounds sort of familiar. There is no way the Virginia Gentlemen, the school’s a cappella group mentioned in the article, perform that song in public (and if you read the sentence in which the author claims this, she says they sing “verses” of it, which probably means the original unoffensive version, whatever that is.) So while I don’t know anything about the veracity of the rest of the article’s claims, I do know that the author presented that song as being a beloved and integral part of UVa life when I know for a fact that that isn’t true. That made me question what else she had embellished.
12/2/2024 2:30 pm
Supie, as noted above, I graduated in ’99, lived on Ruby Road, and was in a fraternity for four years (they changed the fall Rush rule at the end of my time there), never heard of the song, have only talked to 5 people who also weren’t aware of it either (much less the verses to it), and one ’04 guy I know who didn’t know about it either. But just bringing up this point - as one small piece of the article I knew to be very sketch - while of course not making the whole thing false by any means, is enough to get you touted as a rape apologist, or “just as guilty” as the guys who did this!?! I will freely admit this could have been a liberty taken by Rolling Stone in an effort to sell the piece and build frustration against the assailants, all be it an inaccurate one.
12/2/2024 2:42 pm
“Drew” is a 5th year senior this year according to the time line from the story. That is a rare thing at UVA, so he should be pretty darn easy to pick out. Or he a grad student to hangs out with his old fraternity a lot. An enterprising journalist would hunt him down and finish up the questioning job that Erdely started but was not interested in finishing.
12/2/2024 2:52 pm
“Study after study after study has shown that campus sexual assault is FAR MORE PREVALENT than most everyone – journalists included – previously believed.”
YOU’RE LYING, of course.
Who knows why, really. You can’t cite a single credible study, because none exist. Rape and sexual assault have been in strong decline since 1992 both on and off campus. BusinessInsider reported that on over half of the “25 Most Dangerous Campuses” in America ZERO rapes are reported in any given year.
ZERO.
To anyone other than an hysteric or opportunistic, that’s good news. It’s great news.
12/2/2024 3:00 pm
I don’t understand why she stayed at UVa, saw “Drew” and the anthro student around campus (“Drew” spoke to her) and yet, she never mentioned their names to any of her friends? So Drew and his buddies could keep on doing these horrible things to new girls year after year? How did she decide to confide to the Rolling Stone reporter?
12/2/2024 3:19 pm
“JD:” “How many of the oh-so-sober skeptics here are women who have been raped?”
And how many are men who have been raped by women? Your bias is showing.
“When Men Are Raped: A new study reveals that men are often the victims of sexual assault, and women are often the perpetrators”
By Hanna Rosin
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study_reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html
12/2/2024 3:20 pm
“JD:” “How many of the oh-so-sober skeptics here are women who have been raped?”
And how many are men who have been raped by women? Your bias is showing.
“When Men Are Raped: A new study reveals that men are often the victims of sexual assault, and women are often the perpetrators”
By Hanna Rosin
This blog seems not to like links in comments, bu the story is readily available by googling.
12/2/2024 3:23 pm
I’m so glad all of you are experts on glass shards and what it feels like to be raped for hours on end. You’re all detectives. Definitely quit your day jobs.
1. Many fraternities have year-long pledging, which means that these dudes would have still been pledges at the time of this alleged rape. Technically there’s a time limit for pledging (6 weeks to a semester), but a lot of times that period is extended due to the size of the pledge class and how well the pledges behave.
2. I went to UVA, and can confirm that not only were women discouraged to go to the police, but that the process of bringing it forward to the administration was mortifying and devoid of any actual repercussions to the rapist. The administration hypocritically does not expel self-admitted rapists, but follow the honor code (lying, cheating, stealing) to the letter. Look up Eramo’s videotaped interview. She admits to this.
Also understand that the state prosecutor in Virginia is unwilling to take rape cases where alcohol was involved at all, as most prosecutors tend to be. The case is hard to win which impacts their win rate, and there’s loads of reasonable doubt especially in date rape cases where the girl or guy knows the assailant. So you go through the motions of a rape kit (horrible and intrusive), bring someone up on charges (you and the accused are both now public, along with the allegations) in order to not have the case tried. Where does that leave you? Probably suffering from threats and alienation during a time that is supposed to be one of the most fun periods of your life. I probably wouldn’t come forward either.
I have no idea whether this story is true. Neither do you. What’s most important is that this ongoing issue that is consistently swept under the rug is getting national coverage. The administration is scrambling to cover their asses and will hopefully make some necessary changes. Better monitoring of the ever-powerful Greek system and education on alcohol consumption and sex.
12/2/2024 3:30 pm
So, recent UVA grad, your reply boils down to:
1. No one who isn’t an expert is permitted to challenge the veracity of a published story. And who appoints those experts? You?
2. Women are so discouraged from going to the police that they would let nine sociopathic criminals walk free. This applies to you, too: You are subjected to a violent crime legally just short of murder, and you wouldn’t report it? Where is your sense of responsibility?
And 3: Let’s not let the facts distract us from our mission of smashing the patriarchy.
12/2/2024 3:50 pm
Steve - you’re descending into the kind of pseudo-literary psychobabble that one would expect from feminists and post-modernists. It’s hardly becoming of you.
12/2/2024 3:57 pm
TO: opinion from uva grad
OMG. Did you rattle off every feminist excuse for not reporting rape there is?
You know something. Women who don’t report rape are guilty of perpetuating the ‘culture of rape’ and ‘enabling rapists’.
Every time a rape victim doesn’t report a rape and the rapist strikes again, THAT WOMAN IS GUILTY OF EACH AND EVER SUBSEQUENT RAPE!
How many women are ‘Jackie’ guilty of victimizing because of her own selfishness and her stupidity for listening to her friends who told her not to report the rape?
If there is a ‘rape culture’ ‘Jackie’ and women like her are the problem. It’s not the police for the intrusive rape test. It’s not the administration for discourage reporting the rape to the police.
‘JACKIE’ is the problem.
12/2/2024 4:01 pm
Did I say not to challenge the veracity? Read my response again. You’re reading what you want to read. There’s a difference between questioning and outright saying she must be lying because her back would *obviously* be shredded and people would *of course* see her as she fled.
And so now it’s the responsibility of the victim to put himself/herself in a position where they will more than likely be chastised and further abused. You’ve thought that one through.
They are discouraged from going to the police because of the attention it will bring the university, followed by the reality that their case will more than likely not be followed through on.
You sound so obsessed with this particular story that you’re completely missing that there are many facts, many stories, many victims. And many changes that need to be made.
12/2/2024 4:10 pm
[…] a much-cited piece, Richard Bradley, a former editor at George magazine, writes of his skepticism of Erdely’s piece […]
12/2/2024 4:15 pm
Richard, you should be honored to draw the crowd of pro-rape apologists in here, especially noted and celebrated racist, Steve Sailer.
Nice accomplishment
12/2/2024 4:19 pm
There are *not* “many facts, many stories, many victims.”
There is only *this* story — an absolutely extraordinary allegation of gang-rape on the UVa campus — reported as truth by Sabrina Rubin Erdely in Rolling Stone magazine.
There can be no distraction from this. The current allegations are the only thing that matters.
Conjecture of any kind is irrelevant now.
We need to establish whether Rubin Erdely’s extraordinary claims are true — or fabrications.
If Rubin Erdely”s story is untrue or fabricated in any way, everyone involved in its publication must be held accountable.
I can assure you that the investigation into Rubin Erdely’s story has just begun, and, further, that this investigation will be uniquely relentless.
12/2/2024 4:36 pm
TO: opinion from uva grad
“You sound so obsessed with this particular story”
You know what I’m obsessed about? Women like ‘Jackie’ and Erdely and feminists who LIE about rape.
‘They are discouraged from going to the police…’
Feminist excuse ad infinitum.
I want a full criminal investigation. I want to know the truth.
As a man I’m accused of not caring about women. Let me be clear. If these claims are true I want to see these guys in jail or at least exposed to the public. However, I strongly suspect that much if not all of this story is a fabrication if not by ‘Jackie’ then Erdely.
What do you want out of this? Do you want to know the truth? Or do you just want to believe this story because it fits your ‘narrative’ of predatory frat boys?
12/2/2024 4:50 pm
Richard, you write an interesting story. Interesting and ironic in that the very theme you create, that one must be careful not to follow their biases, is one you employ in this article. As a journalist, you must be well aware of the vast animosity and vitriol there is for women who have been raped. They are routinely not believed, every minute point in their story is examined under a microscope (as you’ve done in part here) to see if it “rings true.” Not if it IS true, just if it kinda sounds like it. “Something about this story doesn’t feel right.”
You state you wish to write this with “not the eyes of a man or a woman, but those of a magazine editor…” Who is also a man. Your “eyes” are as steeped in our society “as a man” as anyone else’s. I believe you are capable of journalistic objectivity. You’ve demonstrated that in your past works. But sexual assault is a special, rare thing. For some reason (I actually know the reasons, but for the sake of my point), it is seen as a violent act wholly unto itself and different in nature from other acts of violence.
You state that one would think gang rapes in fraternities would be well-known. They are. This is not odd or new information. There have been books (which as a journalist complaining about how other journalists don’t do their research seems odd in itself) written on the subject. Many academic papers published in peer-reviewed journals on the subject. Many thesis written on this very subject. This is very well-known and discussed within the field of mental health and sexual assault work. More odd that you wouldn’t know this.
Though, in your defense, you do say, ” I am not, thankfully, an expert on premeditated gang rape.” And I appreciate you saying that. Because it’s not only true, it’s nauseatingly true. You fall back on so many old and well-worn tropes yourself in calling this young woman and the writer who dared write on this subject liars. You don’t do it so directly, no. You cloak it in the “it seems strange” and “how come she didn’t” and “it doesn’t make sense that” soft call-outs that many engage in when they don’t want to believe a truth. Not just a truth, but a statistically observable one. You demonstrate your utter lack of expertise in stating, “one out of three women who go to UVA has been raped. This is silly.” Clearly, you are unaware of the standard Federal, state, locally supported numbers on rape and sexual assault. I am not saying it is one of three, but it is not at all difficult to believe. Certainly not “silly,” which is so dismissive in its tone that it is undeserving of you.
Women and men are sexually assaulted. In large numbers. Routinely. Brutally. Violently. Horribly. In all the horrible ways that you claim you would prefer not to believe, but that part of you knows does happen. Except this time. And maybe the next time. And the time after that. It goes under the “I know this happens in general, but not in THIS instance” idea. Which is another trope.
I do work in this field. I don’t claim to be an expert on premeditated gang rape, but I know an awful, sad, soul-churning lot about it. I am well-versed in the field of sexual assault. I have written about it. I have held large-scale online discussion on the subject. I have met with and read horrifying accounts of young women who have gone through very similar ordeals to “Jackie’s.”
It’s not only not odd or strange or difficult to believe; it’s frighteningly common.
I see from many of the comments that your article struck a chord, you have many easily willing to fall into your view of the story, your questioning-without-investigating tone that makes it so easy for us to follow your line of thought and disbelieve this could have ever happened.
However, you’ve provided us the theme, the viewpoint through which, perhaps, to objectively attempt to understand how a young girl could be taken to a room because she liked a boy and paid for it, for hours, while multiple men worked out their anger and rejection and sadism on her and how she was not able to receive justice for what happened to her.
“The answer, I had to admit, was because they corroborated my pre-existing biases.”
12/2/2024 4:56 pm
[…] began when Richard Bradley, veteran journalist and editor, published a skeptical take on the article, noting obvious flaws and logical contradictions. That was on Nov. 24. Then, on Nov. 28, the […]
12/2/2024 5:01 pm
No idea if this story is true but I was in a fraternity at a different school and rape / gang rape definitely happened. That’s just a fact. So it’s not unheard of.
12/2/2024 5:29 pm
Jim
Absolutely - gang rapes, even premeditated gang rapes, have occurred. Possibly even at fraternities.
No one is saying an event like Jackies couldn’t have happened. What they are saying is that, according to the allegations presented in the article, it is implausible. There are too many holes in the story.
The deeper, more disturbing issue is that if this is a hoax, it was generated and perpetuated to further political ends. This has already impacted many people’s lives.
Did preschoolers ever suffer child abuse? Sure. Did the satanic ritual abuse at McMartin occur? Almost certainly not. Were people’s lives destroyed as a result? Absolutely, yes. THIS is why this case is important.
If this is found to be a hoax, it may well be the turning point in our “rape culture” hysteria. If it is not a hoax, we will all breathe a little easier because nine sociopaths will be put on notice if not incarcerated.
12/2/2024 6:05 pm
[…] a much-cited piece, Richard Bradley, a former editor at George magazine, writes of his skepticism of Erdely’s piece […]
12/2/2024 6:22 pm
Richard Bradley, thank you for a thought provoking blog. I enjoyed it and thought you made some very interesting points. Now I would ask that you read the comments. Women seeking attention? Rape fantasies? Liberal feminists with a radical man-hating agenda? As someone who was a high school “townie,” a student and an employee, the fraternity rape culture at UVa has been real for many years. Yes, I do know victims. Many. And I’ve tried to get them to report the crime. Again, read the comments here and ask yourself if you would say anything to anyone. I have no idea if the details of jackie’s story are 100% accurate, but have I heard variations of her story from other victims? Yes. Do you want to know who commits these crimes? Read the comments.
12/2/2024 6:53 pm
^^^^
So you just falsely accused a bunch of men of being rapists with no evidence.
Thank you for proving the point that women lie liberally and very easily about rape! Women use false rape allegations as a blunt weapon, as you do above.
12/2/2024 6:57 pm
^^^ That is the best you have?
You don’t like the comments because they don’t fit your worldview, so you call the commenters “rapists”?
Furthermore, you claim to have personal knowledge that UVa is infested with sociopathic rapists? And, strangely, no one does anything about it?
Good heavens, what are you doing within a hundred miles of such a den of perverted subhuman criminals?
This gets loonier by the minute.
12/2/2024 6:57 pm
“The first thing that strikes me about it, of course, is that Jackie is never identified. I don’t love that—it makes me uncomfortable to base an entire story on an unnamed source.”
That’s laughable and ludicrous. I’m pretty sure one of the primary tenets of journalistic integrity is the right of a source to remain anonymous and the journalist is meant to protect that source. Any journalist or reader that is uncomfortable because sources aren’t named is not a critical reader- rather they masquerading as critical readers. Deep Throat must have really been hard for this “journalist” to accept. Similarly, an attempt to discredit the story on such inept critiques is just an obfuscation of the larger issues of campus rape in general. That is- they think critiquing this one incident means that it really isn’t a problem…when it is. Look up the EI fraternity leaked emails from American University- there you get names and emails from the people in question. Though it’s pretty clear that you never actually learned how to be a journalist in the first place since you consider “reading with a critical and skeptical eye” to be critiquing the article in isolation rather than seeking out the sources or other sources of your own to supplement your own criticisms.
12/2/2024 7:03 pm
[…] by fake stories, the more skittish they get about possibly new-fake ones. Why did Richard Bradley write the first post that really questioned the Rolling Stone story? Because …read […]
12/2/2024 7:34 pm
I’m so scared to ever visit this site again by reading the comments on this site, which I thought were just lines that I hear on Law & Order SVU regarding doubting victims…
I’m going to number my points so they’re easily digested:
1) I’m not saying that this story may not be true…only because I haven’t heard both sides, not necessarily because elements of “Jackie’s” story aren’t plausible
2) [segue from point 1] It’s very striking to me that many of these commenters are men (though I know there are some women) because the perspectives seem one-sided. Even the author. I know it’s hard to imagine yourself an 18 year-old girl if you’ve never been one, but fear, a need for acceptance, and peer pressure are VERY REAL THINGS! So is poor judgment on the part of friends to advise someone not to go to the hospital. Shockingly, even in 2014. Let’s not let our age and maturity today distance us so far from a different perspective, that we throw out very real occurrences because we can’t recall such lapses in logic.
3) Probably the WORST thing to do is to think crimes like these only happen in third world, war-torn countries. That mode of thinking is what perpetuates these actions…that these things don’t happen in our country, or our neighborhoods, or our schools, with our children.
Lastly I’ll just say that your post of your thoughts shed light on how to report these incidents from a journalistic perspective. It didn’t make me question whether or not this happened…I’ll leave that for an investigation.
It just made me question the reporting of it.
12/2/2024 7:40 pm
[…] Bradley has turned his attention to the subject of the (in)famous University of Virginia gang rape c…. Very briefly, a woman, “Jackie” (the victim’s real first name, apparently) has alleged that roughly two years ago she was held captive in a “pitch black” room at a UVa fraternity party and gang-raped over the course of three or so hours. Repeatedly. She was lying on her back amidst a sea of broken glass this whole time (which necessarily means her attackers were kneeling or lying in it as well, by the way). She counted seven separate attackers, who were egged on by two others, including the boy who had invited her to the party in the first place. The attack is presented as a rite of passage in this fraternity (the seventh attacker, whom she claims to have recognized, has trouble getting it up and, when he’s asked whether he wants to be a brother in the fraternity or not, finally gives up and penetrates Jackie with a beer bottle); we are invited to conclude that it’s common in the Greek system generally. That’s horrific enough. It is also alleged, however, that her own friends discouraged her from reporting it to the police, or even going to the hospital (this despite the wounds from the glass shards that had dug — no, must have been deeply ground — into her back repeatedly over the course of three hours). This conversation is presented as having occurred within minutes after Jackie has come to her senses and walked through the crowd at the (still-going-strong) party. She would have — must have — been covered in blood across her entire shoulders, back, buttocks, head, and likely large areas of her arms as well (they’ve been held down, according to the story). She would, in short, have looked like hamburger over much of her body, and her dress that she’s pictured as having so carefully selected for her date would have looked like something salvaged from an army field hospital after an unsuccessful battle. She would very likely bear scars on those areas of her body to this day. […]
12/2/2024 8:02 pm
[…] who presided over The New Republic when Stephen Glass scammed it with faked articles, has written a much-reported post in which he too questions the Rolling Stone article telling of the purported rape. The problem, as […]
12/2/2024 8:07 pm
The people behind this particular ‘story’ and its publicity aren’t really concerned with its accuracy or even its credibility. Its function as a political cudgel is what matters. As its defenders in this forum have shown, we’re rapidly approaching the point (if we’re not there already) where the mere accusation of sexual assault equals conviction. Hard to imagine how that might ever be misused, isn’t it?
People believe what they want to believe, helped liberally by mass-media propaganda, of which this RS cover story is a sterling example. Now all they have to do is come up with some actual people to flesh out their fantasy. But never mind, the damage is done, and the unravelling of those pesky ‘details’ will take place on the back pages, long after the minds of the masses have moved on to greener pastures.
12/2/2024 8:09 pm
I thought the story rang a bell-University of Virginia, gang rape. Right. Much of the accusations are lifted from Scott Turow’s novel “Limitations,” in which an appellate judge (named, if you can believe it, George Mason), decides on a statute-of-limitations case involving a gang rape in Kindle (Cook, of course) County, and while doing so has painful memories of a gang rape he witnessed and participated in while a law student at UVa.
12/2/2024 8:14 pm
To Child Therapist and BTS: How many times would the two of you guess that in say the last 50 years a good female friend of the victim of a really, really brutal rape has told her friend that she should look on the bright side, the rape gave her a chance to have sex with a lot of “hot” guys.
This is part of Jackie’s story. I realize the contempt many people have for students at one of the most elite universities in America, but I do not believe you can find a single female student on the UVA campus who holds this view. And yet the two of you insist that this is true.
Quite frankly, I find your claim that some women find suffering a very brutal, horrible gang rape is a great way to have sex with a lot of “hot” men disgusting.
12/2/2024 8:26 pm
Oh, wow. I’d missed this in the Washington Post story: “Rachel Soltis, a suitemate of Jackie…is also quoted this way: “The university ignores the problem to make itself look better. They should have done something in Jackie’s case. Me and several other people know exactly who did this to her. But they want to protect even the people who are doing these horrible things.”
“Me and several other people know” That makes this so much simpler. Rachel Soltis et al merely have to testify, to be subpoenaed if necessary, and the ‘facts’ can come out. Verifiable assertions, anyway, since they “know who did these horrible things.”
12/2/2024 8:50 pm
> The answer, I had to admit, was because they corroborated my pre-existing biases.
There’s a saying I’ve heard about scientific research that goes, “If the result disagree with your hypothesis, double-check them. If they agree with your hypotheses, TRIPLE-check them!”
To UVa, I’ll just say that the son of a family I know was accused of rape and, eventually, acquitted. In the meantime, though, he and his family faced all kinds of harassment. So yes, women lie about this, just as people lie about everything. “Listen and Believe” goes against the fundamental basis of our legal system.
12/2/2024 8:54 pm
ChildTherapist, if you work in the sexual assault field, and have written on it, and held “large-scale online discussion of the subject”, why are you commenting anonymously? If you are such an expert on the subject, shouldn’t you be wiling to put your name to your comment?
12/2/2024 9:17 pm
The reason “false stories” are so disgusting is that they harm innocents, that alone is reason to thoughtfully question an outrageously horrible crime such as this one. This is not just drunken gang rape (a horrible crime), this is a vicious pre-meditated assault and gang rape. I thought “Charlotte Simmons” was brutally raped, but that was small potatoes compared to “Jackie”
This story makes it less likely that a victim will want to come forward. Their story won’t be half this bad, so why would they think they will be believed and not shunned.
There were a number of comments about “rape victim’s stories not being believed.” That is ridiculous, I know victims, many are traumatized and embarrassed but they were all believed particularly by their friends who were out for the perpetrators blood. Even when later the facts were not quite so bad as in the first telling. Like maybe they were both drunk, and maybe they were making out, but then she did clearly and forcefully say no, and he did not stop.
I know many campus rapes/assaults go unreported, but most decent guys-and there are many in fraternities-hate guys who rape, or get their dates drunk and pressure them into sex. And will warn girls away from them and run interference. There are very few guys-unless drunk out of their minds-who would not drag a “best” friend to the hospital even against her will, if she showed up as bruised and bloodied as “Jackie” would have been.
I will say, stupid, wimpy and inappropriate response by University officials seem to be the norm-that part at least is credible. Is there any less capable, rational, clear headed group in positions of authority in modern life? I think they must go to “The Queen of Hearts” school for justice and administration.
12/2/2024 9:40 pm
The story seems plausible to me, and the woman’s fear seems plausible, too. Is that my bias against a frat boy culture? Maybe. But the article quotes several women who were afraid to report rapes at UVA, not just one woman. For each, the story is basically the same: She got caught in a bad situation, blames herself partially, and believes the school won’t do anything about it. And going public would be embarrassing. A few aspects of the story seem possibly overdone — the broken glass, the rapist who asks her on another day if she had a good time at the party. But overall, it seems well reported.
12/2/2024 10:44 pm
college dad,
We should all be thankful that that the standard of evidence in our criminal justice system is not some guy who shrugs off the lives of seven young men, saying:
“Dunno, seems plausible to me.”
That isn’t going to fly in this case, my friend. This case is going to be subject to the most relentless investigation in the history of journalism.
Mark my words.
12/2/2024 10:47 pm
[…] writers and media outlets have now started to pick apart Erdely’s reporting, as well as the details of Jackie’s story as reported by Rolling Stone. That’s because, even by the standards of horrific, despicable […]
12/2/2024 10:50 pm
finally, a safe place for rape apologists
12/2/2024 10:53 pm
Would anyone care to do an honest assessment of who “won” in this case, Jezebel etc. or this site etc.? Without looking into this in much depth, I’m going to guess Jezebel etc. won because they did things the right way. I’m going to guess the emotional issues of their opponents - short fuses, inability to think things through, inability to come up with realistic action plans, venting in echo chambers, making excuses for failure, enabling do-nothing leaders, favoring snark over reason, epistemic closure, letting other less popular issues free-ride, etc. etc. and just generally not getting things - caused Jezebel etc. win.
At the end of the day, who won?
12/2/2024 11:13 pm
[…] writers and media outlets have now started to pick apart Erdely’s reporting, as well as the details of Jackie’s story as reported by Rolling Stone. That’s because, even by the standards of horrific, despicable […]
12/2/2024 11:45 pm
There is no ‘win’, 24, there is only truth. A large part of the problem around this story is that you think there is a ‘win’ to be had. Rethink that. Your mind is the prize, 24, and SJW types know it.
12/3/2024 12:40 am
Whether the story is true or not, the article makes two things abundantly clear: 1) Journalism is dead; and 2) society needs to stop giving women a pass for not reporting rape. We’ve come a long way in this country in the last 50 years enacting laws to protect rape victims, but victims have to do their part. No matter how difficult it is. That is life. Sadly, being afraid of social repercussions, while understandable, cannot be tolerated as an excuse for not coming forward.
12/3/2024 1:58 am
I agree with ColRebSez that it is impossible that not one friend believed and pushed her to report it to the police. I was molested by an older student when I was 13 years old and when I told my friend she immediately accompany me to report it to a teacher. Even 13 year old girls know when a friend told you she was sexually assaulted you must support her to not keep it quiet and reported it to someone.
The problem is that usually after the complaint victims are not discouraged or encouraged to report it to the police by the administration. The administration usually just left it at that and it’s up to you to report it or not. Confused and scared victims will of course doesn’t feel like reporting it and do nothing about it. That is why the new legislation of Virginia lawmakers about universities have to immediately turn rape cases to the law enforcement is a good solution on this. It is better that you are uncomfortable for being questioned by the police now rather than people doesn’t believe you in the future because you never report it to the police. At least the former have a chance of jailing your rapist.
12/3/2024 2:03 am
[…] and media outlets have now started to pick apart Erdely’s reporting, as well as the details of Jackie’s story as reported by Rolling Stone. That’s because, even by the standards of horrific, […]
12/3/2024 3:57 am
[…] writers and media outlets have now started to pick apart Erdely’s reporting, as well as the details of Jackie’s story as reported by Rolling Stone. That’s because, even by the standards of horrific, despicable […]
12/3/2024 4:35 am
Steve Sailer.. my first thought when I read this story was “This reads like an English 101 rape story”. So laughed at your critique, which was surely under-appreciated.
I went to UVa, and my ex girlfriend was raped. I ignored it, because it was inconvenient for me. That wasn’t what I thought at the time - I questioned her sanity, the situation, all that stuff. You know who she accused? One of my frat brothers. I wish it wasn’t the case, but I made a poor decision. I wish I had handled it differently.
I have another friend who was drugged and raped. In fact, I know several women who have been drugged at bars - most of them lucky enough to have gotten home safely. I assume there are many of my friends who haven’t been as open about their own rape experiences.
IMHO these are the situations that need to be addressed - not some mythical and fantastic tale of rape, surely destined for the Lifetime channel. This story will be shown to be false, and it will make it harder for other women to come forward.
It isn’t that something like this can’t happen, I just don’t believe that it did, based on the RS article. And it bothers me that so many of my friends treat it as the truth - several of them UVa grads. Rape is real. Rape happens. But this story just seems like bs.
As an aside. The day the RS article came out, I posted several times on the RS boards, asking for them to name names - my posts were all pruned. I originally hoped that was for some legal reason - for example, not to bias people against the individuals in case of criminal trial. Finding out that none of these men were interviewed, or even contacted to be interviewed, is really troublesome.
12/3/2024 4:42 am
ChildTherapist - could you please post some of the literature you refer to? I’d like to do some additional reading. I assume “Fraternity Gang Rape” is one of those books? Just ordered on Amazon.
12/3/2024 5:12 am
I believe that someone here has said something to the effect (correct me if I’m wrong, it might have been a different comment thread or article) of ‘women rarely lie about rape’.
And then we have haters popping in accusing everyone questioning the veracity of a story published as journalism “rape apologists” It’s a bit of a stretch, but I don’t think that it would be utterly unfair to say that the “apologist” accusations are indeed false statements about rape.
And yes, women do make false accusations regarding rape. It’s happened to me twice. One was utter fabrication, and regarding the other, the fact that I stopped the moment she said “no” was no defense, I was still guilty. Perhaps fortunately, both knew that their charges would never stand up in court, but both did their damnedest to have me “tried” in the court of public opinion in our mutual social circles. Both mostly failed, as well, with the vast majority disbelieving the stories. That wasn’t just because they didn’t “ring true”, it’s because they couldn’t “ring true”, being utter fiction in the first case, and skewed and embellished in the second one, with fictions substituted for inconvenient facts.
But now I expect that I will be called a “rapist” by the “pro-false-accusation” crowd, because they don’t find my story “believable”. Which matters when applied to me, but doesn’t matter, it seems, when a woman claims to be the victim of a rape, but not when a man claims to be the victim of a false rape allegation. Funny how there are two standards for that.
I’m not saying that all rape stories are false, mind you. Many, probably most are true, when allowing for memory tricks and errors over small, irrelevant details.
But implausible horror stories, treated as truth, that cause widespread panic? Like the “razor blades in apples at Halloween”? The very few verified cases of that sort of thing were relatives targeting their young relatives for reasons of their own, not strangers.
Satanic day-care centers? That was big, for a time. “And then she turned me into a mouse, and flew around the room”. Psychotic breaks caused by Dungeons and Dragons? As best as i recall, the one case of that involved a person that was already mentally ill. “Video games cause violence”? Been done, unproven. Movies, the same? Same result. “Porn causes rape”? More porn available than ever, and yet the rape rate is in decline.
So yes, the veracity of a rape story that is wildly lurid matters, the more so because if it falls apart under scrutiny, the people it will hurt most are the rape victims who are not “empowering” themselves by using their experiences as a way to make their expensive college lives a little cushier, and gain a sense of satisfaction, but the poor and working-poor women who don’t have a university-sponsored anti-rape support system filled with sincere activists who will tell them how very brave those college women are.
No, the single working mother of two will be stuck trying to put together the shambles of her life alone, without a horde of spoiled rich kids telling her how wonderful she is, and making wild accusations left and right, then going out for pizza and beer and coming back to watch re-runs of Twilight. Or whatever it is the young college activist class does to unwind after a long, hard day of activating.
IMO, those coddled youngsters would help more people by doing things that matter in the real world, away from campus. Focusing on police brutality against marginalized citizens, for example. Granted, that’s largely about that stodgy old Bill of Rights, and not creating new “rights” left and right, but it’s far more meaningful than changing campus policies to be ever more restrictive and less tolerant.
*sigh* Sorry, rant over. I’ll check back later to see if I have collected any other false allegations from the “rape stories can /never/ be questioned” brigade.
12/3/2024 6:38 am
I wonder if the accuser has any scars on her back. Or if anyone asked. Congratulations for speaking out against dangerous generalizations based on one very questionable article. Well done.
12/3/2024 6:50 am
[…] seeking to upend the patriarchy,” was just right. As Worth magazine editor Richard Bradley noted last week, the whole thing seems like an adventure in confirmation […]
12/3/2024 7:45 am
[…] being taken for a ride by a fabulist coopting other peoples’ cognitive biases. He describes his own professional humiliation […]
12/3/2024 9:22 am
“Richard, you should be honored to draw the crowd of pro-rape apologists in here, especially noted and celebrated racist, Steve Sailer.’
Congratulations, I guess, on being so eager to join the ranks of false accusers. No one is “pro-rape.” No one.
12/3/2024 9:25 am
[…] even the Washington Post is skeptical. And Reason. And Slate. And Richard Bradley of Worth […]
12/3/2024 9:59 am
I will contribute to this pointless endeavor, but I hope my words are useful.
I read the RS piece last week and was horrified and angry. This morning, I’m starting to read the pushback. And—as a former journalist, straight white male, proud feminist, liberal, and most of all reasonable and empathic human being—there are some very legitimate questions WaPo, TNR and Reason Magazine have asked. And they are bothersome.
I believe Jackie exists and was raped. I pray she nor Erdely aren’t lying. I pray Erdely hasn’t exaggerated nor dramatized anything—it’s just as sinful and harmful than the wholesale lying of Jayson Blair, Janet Cooke, Stephen Glass et al.
Rape is a problem. Misogyny is a problem. Sexism is a problem. As a 40-year-old man, I see how unaware and nonchalant younger people are…even people in their 30’s let alone 20’s and younger. They just didn’t grow up when I did. Feminists aren’t hysterical. We’re angry.
All that said, there are details that I cannot fathom and find incredible. Namely, all three of Jackie’s friends urging her to not go to the police, for fear of being shunned socially and banned from frat parties.
It’s possible…but….really?? Are 18-year-olds that callous and insensitive and insecure these days?? It’s unconscionable, yes, BUT plausible…because rape DOES happen…because peer pressure DOES exist and because there ARE people who’s values are so warped.
But ALL THREE friends having the same warped values and cowardice? God I hope not…but if they are for real, then the article and my worst fears are true…and if the three friends are fiction or have been misquoted it’s a lie and Erdely—and/or Jackie—are monsters and traitors.
I hope the truth comes out in light of the shitstorm. And the thing about the truth is that “it’s always somewhere in the middle”
*crossing my fingers*
12/3/2024 10:43 am
NYC, you sound honest, but tell me, are you religious? Have you actually prayed over this? Do you often use the word sinful in other discussion?
12/3/2024 10:45 am
Oh, and the truth is not always in the middle. Sometimes people lie and the truth is the exact opposite of whats said. Often the truth is the truth. Either Jackie was gang raped or she wasn’t. I won’t call her a liar if it turns out it was 5 or 10 men instead of 7. It was pitch dark after all. But if it wasn’t gang rape? That’s not the ‘middle’.
12/3/2024 10:57 am
[…] say “if” because some serious questions have arisen about the story. Here’s Richard Bradley, a magazine editor who once had the unfortunate experience of working with Stephen […]
12/3/2024 11:03 am
Wow. I knew you when you were still Rich Blow and couldn’t make it through grad school. You were gross then but (remarkably) even grosser now.
12/3/2024 11:33 am
The Greek system does not hold rush until the spring semester at UVA. In Fall 2012, there were no pledges to be hazed into committing rape.
There were also no lifeguards in Phi Kappa Psi. Jackie claims she met “Drew” because they worked together as lifeguards.
12/3/2024 11:37 am
UVA holds informal rush in September. http://virginiaisc.com/recruitment/calendar-of-recruitment-schedules/
12/3/2024 11:40 am
Jack Strawb,
Hopefully we are all adults here.
After several of Steve Sailer’s regular readers read the Rolling Stone article, then found Richard Bradley’s brave critique of it, they strongly urged Sailer to take an interest.
Is there anything specifically wrong with Sailer’s commentary here? In part because of Sailer’s insights, the opinion on this story has turned completely around.
I first started reading Sailer’s “ISTEVE” blog(now the at the Unz Review), after running across numerous really intelligent comments by him on a half dozen different subjects almost ten years ago. At the time I also encountered the most hyperbolic attacks on his character by lefty bloggers charging racism. The difference between the two extremes drove me to visit his site. Since then I have read just about every Steve has written.
Is Steve Sailer a racist, a race denialist like perhaps yourself, or just a race realist? Good question, how about encouraging the obviously diverse audience here to check out Steve Sailer and decide for themselves.
12/3/2024 11:48 am
UVA has informal rush in September
12/3/2024 11:48 am
I feel some relief that I’m not the only one skeptical of this story. It contains all the elements of “rape culture” that stir up the feminists’ emotions. The “privileged” white boys who plan brutal rapes. Her insensitive friends (one of them even said something along the lines of “why didn’t you just enjoy it”). The hostility and lack of support everywhere she turns. The fraternity institution, which is able to continue its oppressive ways. With outrage like this, who needs facts? As they say, “feels over reals.”
The (online) front page of the WaPo features an article citing the “statistic” that one in five women in college will be raped.
This story was published shortly after the kidnapping and murder of Hannah Graham received a fair amount of media attention - the suspect has been charged, and is also connected to another murder in Charlottesville, and at least one other sexual assault in Virginia. The conspiracy theorist in me rarely comes out, but I can’t help but wonder if, since this suspect didn’t fit the SJW’s preferred image of a rapist on campus, some journalist decided to bring the attention back to the REAL bad guys - the frat boys.
12/3/2024 12:01 pm
[…] being taken for a ride by a fabulist coopting other peoples’ cognitive biases. He describes his own professional humiliation […]
12/3/2024 12:11 pm
Some of these comments make my stomach churn. The Tawana Brawley comparisons and the bodice-ripper fantasy stuff is just absolutely repulsive. That is taking healthy skepticism way, way too far. It’s offensive and wrong-minded.
And to those of you who claim that this is 3rd world behavior, I also disagree. I just graduated from a very wealthy Southern private university and can tell you there are absolutely going to be friends-men and women-who tell women not to report rapes. People on the coasts forget how conservative/backwards parts of the country can be, but I experienced these attitudes while in school. I knew many girls who were silenced either by friends or by their own shame.
And to you who say an orchestrated rape is too unfathomable, barbaric to believe: spend some time around frats. I witnessed and heard about extremely horrific, disgusting acts that happened in Greek life at my school. It IS possible and even plausible that it happened.
That being said, I do agree with many of you that there are journalistic holes here that are too gaping to ignore. I think about how easy it would have been to ascertain some of the details or to provide context-especially since UVA is a public university with many public records. Why not request the frat’s social calendar to pin down an exact date? Why not request all the complaints and investigations into the frat in the past 20 years? Why not request all the names of the students employed as lifeguards? (This may be protected under FERPA somehow, but worth trying.)
At my newspaper, this story never would have made it to press. It’s far too loose reporting and would have made any editor nervous. That being said, RS is not a newspaper. They have different standards and have more freedom. But I bet you anything their legal team is starting to sweat.
12/3/2024 12:41 pm
[…] writers and media outlets have now started to pick apart Erdely’s reporting, as well as the details of Jackie’s story as reported by Rolling Stone. That’s because, even by the standards of horrific, despicable frat […]
12/3/2024 1:02 pm
[…] blown up their suspicions well beyond the available evidence, calling her story a “hoax” and comparing it to the fabricated pieces published by Stephen Glass in The New Republic and other […]
12/3/2024 1:06 pm
The one thing that surprises me in all these discussions questioning the veracity of the Rolling Stone article, is the fact that this Cville article on the other victims in the story is not mentioned. http://www.c-ville.com/uva-activists-author-rolling-stone-article-speak/#.VH9NzDHF-So The Cville article quotes many victims quoted in the Rolling Stone article who say they were actually part of anti-rape activist groups, which fact the Rolling Stone author neglected to mention. It seems to show that the Rolling Stone author was possibly trying to cover up potential biases of her subjects, even if this meant downplaying the activism she was nominally trying to encourage and portraying the victims as typical party girls instead of dedicated activists, which rightfully angered some of these women.
12/3/2024 1:14 pm
there is one PhiPsi who fits the timeframe and, according to his FB page, was a lifeguard.
frats at UVA hold informal rush in September
safety glass is, well, safety glass - it won’t slice you up
fraternity brothers have been convicted of gang rapes over and over, all over the country, for decades - one of those accounts is in the RS story -and- it happened at PhiPsi
people, especially teenagers, routinely fail to get medical help for others due to fear of repercussions, that is why many jurisdictions enacted good Samaritan protections, particularly for incidents involving underage drinking.
12/3/2024 1:21 pm
I believe the story of the pre-meditated gang rapes at UVA are true.
Years ago, when my sister was in college at the University of Connecticut,she met a girl that said she was gang raped at UConn by lacrosse players. The girl ran into one of the guys at the library. He asked her to a party but said he had to stop back at his dorm room first. When they got up to his dorm room, his buddies were waiting to rape her. This was a pre-mediated gang rape!!! The poor girl was so mortified she would not report it.
12/3/2024 1:32 pm
[…] some journalists have raised questions about the story. Richard Bradley, who as an editor at George magazine was duped by the former New Republic writer and fabulist […]
12/3/2024 1:45 pm
First off, some facts to clear up some recent comments:
“google is your friend” and “counterarguments” - there is a very clear difference between “informal rush” and pledgeship/initiation. Informal rush happens all of first semester at most schools (including UVA) that defer official rush until the second semester. Rush by its nature entails brothers “rushing” the freshmen - trying to get the freshmen to like them so they will pledge their fraternity during the second semester, when official rush and pledgeship occur. The article certainly seems to make this alleged crime sound like a pledgeship task, which would not make sense given the timeframe. And thinking about this logically… I find it very hard to believe that ANY fraternity would be able to convince 7 first year guys to rape a girl within the first few weeks of school. (I’m not saying it’s impossible for this reason alone, but it certainly does not seem quite right to me.)
Second, I would like to offer my perspective as an active Phi Kappa Psi brother at a nearby chapter. The story was very disturbing to me, (as it undoubtedly was to everyone that read it) when it first broke, but some of the fallout from the allegations have also been quite troubling. When many of us returned home over last weeks Thanksgiving break, soon after this story had broken, we were horrified to have friends and relatives making some parallels between our chapter and the UVA chapter of Phi Psi. On a basic level, this displays the fact that people are ignorant of how the fraternity as a national organization is structured… chapters are largely unaffiliated between schools, with little or no contact and often very different cultures/demographics. But certainly more disturbing was the fact that people were so ready to accept that the alleged rape was a direct product of the fraternity system. Even to the point where certain brothers in my chapter had friends from other schools calling them and asking if a gang rape like this was part of our initiation process. Certainly not something that we want to be associated with.
But beyond a general concern for our own reputation, I believe there is a greater issue with attacking the institution of fraternities in cases like this. It takes away from the simple fact that these men (if the article is true) are rapists, and should be in prison. Period. I am not naïve enough to believe that the fraternity system is completely unrelated to what happened, but lets give blame where blame is due. If this did happen, the fault begins and ends with the sick and twisted individuals who raped this young woman. We should certainly examine the circumstances and systems that enabled something like this to happen, such as the fraternity and the school, but it would be a grave mistake to attack these institutions as if they were primarily to blame.
Lastly, there is some very intelligent and thought provoking discourse occurring on this page, that is in danger of being overshadowed by the extreme ignorance of some contributors. Lets remember that we don’t currently know what happened, so making accusations about the victims deliberately making the whole ordeal up aren’t helpful. And saying things like the victims are to blame for not reporting or pressing charges just makes men look like a bunch of idiots in general. Lets stick with what we know, and be considerate of the people involved in a situation that is likely a living hell for them right now. The facts tend to emerge eventually in situations like this.
12/3/2024 1:48 pm
@ColRebSez
You say you are writing to me, but what you wrote has nothing to do with what I wrote. Perhaps you meant to type a different name?
You reference the friends of Jackie who encourage her to not report and state: “,,,you insist that this is true.” and “Quite frankly, I find your claim that some women find suffering a very brutal, horrible gang rape is a great way to have sex with a lot of “hot” men disgusting.”
I never addressed that point of Richard’s article at all. I addressed a lot of other points, so it’s interesting that your desire to find me disgusting took root in something I never wrote. You also confuse multiple ideas and points by attributing what a completely different person in the Rolling Stone article said (not one of Jackie’s friends) to me, but given your poor reading skills and inability to know who you are speaking with, I suppose that’s to be expected.
@ModerateMom I’m using the name I am known by. I generally don’t use my real name online for the protection of both myself and the clients and people I work with. People get…upset when you challenge the status quo around rape culture, as you may have noticed in these very comments.
Check out Reddit, where I do much of my online work, including an article about THIS article:
http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/2o6dyh/shots_in_the_dark_blog_archive_is_the_rolling/
12/3/2024 2:02 pm
Aghast, you sound very angry and bitter. I’m guessing you’re still in academia. But anyway, why not sign your name? Show some character. Taking cheap shots at someone from under of cover of anonymity is, as you might say, kind of gross.
12/3/2024 2:11 pm
“google is your friend
12/3/2024 11:48 am
UVA has informal rush in September”
Phi psi is a popular fraternity that never once participated in fall rush during my 4 years at UVA
12/3/2024 2:23 pm
I find it ridiculous that the UVa defenders on this site think the glass table is the smoking gun. If you read the article carefully, she says she fell through the glass table then the first rape started. Even assuming the first rape was conducted on the shards and she was not moved beforehand, there is absolutely nothing in the article that suggests that all of the rapes occurred on top of glass shards and she was not moved during the whole episode.
The other smoking gun seems to be that “Drew” said it was a date function and those are calmer affairs. Couldn’t it have been the case that Drew told the victim it was a date function but then it turned out to be a big party. Is that so hard to believe??
If these are the smoking guns held on to by the apologists for the rape culture at fraternities (including UVA’s) then they really need to try a little harder.
12/3/2024 2:29 pm
Just wondering as a parent of a college student and
a Virginian whether any of these students have
parents? They seem to have disappeared off the
face of the Universe…
12/3/2024 2:42 pm
[…] told through the first person account of a young woman. The story has come under scrutiny in recent days for relying solely on the alleged victim’s account and failing to make any attempts to […]
12/3/2024 3:23 pm
anonymous,
The danger of writing about thing you know little about is that you might be wrong - as you are in this case. Social events are a matter of public record here, they must be registered with the Inter Fraternity Council and then duly monitored by the powers that be. In this case, Phi Psi had no such event on that night. They had Athletes and Mathletes, but that was two weeks before the alleged incident.
I don’t know why you feel the need to believe in this story, perhaps it validates some part of your worldview, but as a UVa student I find your misarcharization of our community malicious. You denigrate good people, and a genuine community of trust.
Shame on you.
- CS
12/3/2024 4:42 pm
did the RS reporter interview the “friends” who urged Jackie not to report the rape? It is one thing not to have tried to reach “Drew” and the others she said raped her — there may be real confidentiality issues there — but it is quite another not to try to corroborate her account of what she said to them immediately after the attack and what they advised her.
12/3/2024 5:27 pm
Regarding the comment by This Story is TRUE. UConn does not have a Lacrosse team so it would be pretty hard for them to gang rape a student. Here’s another rape story that needs to be questioned.
12/3/2024 6:22 pm
M D 12/2/2024 11:45 pm writes “There is no ‘win’, 24, there is only truth. A large part of the problem around this story is that you think there is a ‘win’ to be had. Rethink that. Your mind is the prize, 24, and SJW types know it.”
There most certainly is a war, and the far-left tends to win because their opponents tend to do things the wrong way. Who wins can be determined by what happens. For instance, do leading promoters of this story (which I haven’t looked into at all) still have their jobs? Do their readers trust them more, less, or the same? Has UVa held sensitivity training, established new rules, etc.? Has UVa issued a statement saying the story was true or false? Did opponents of the story even try to start a campaign to get UVa to issue a statement or to discredit promoters of the story? Did Breitbart or similar write a post about the story that used it as a partisan issue and alienated non-True Conservatives that might oppose the story? Did most of the opponents of the story cluster in echo chambers that no one in the audience for stories like this read?
My issue is amnesty, and we could have stopped that months ago if supposed anti-amnesty leaders didn’t suffer from the problems in my first comment (and more).
12/3/2024 7:02 pm
This story would have us believe that a fraternity had ritualized gang rape as part of its culture, gang rape that happened at crowded parties where a group of seven students stepped away to engage in heinous sexual abuse.
This story would have us believe that six young men would not only be party to this monstrosity, but would be so confident that they could get away with it that they would send this girl, and whatever other girls came before her, back into the world knowing she wouldn’t talk.
This story would have us believe that a fraternity would somehow keep this act a secret in 2014, when there is no crime more explosive than rape, particularly on a college campus.
This story would have us believe that a woman crashed through a glass table and then six men were eager to roll around on the floor with her in the shards.
This story would have us believe that the girl would go to the administration with it only to get shut down. A ritualized gang rape at a fraternity of an American university in 2012, and the administration doesn’t even initiate an investigation!
This story would have us believe that, in the climate of Light the Night rallies, women’s studies departments, and the new California rape code, that this girl told three of her friends she was gang raped on broken glass for three hours and they told her to hush up about it because it might affect her social life.
This story would have us believe that at least 10 people were aware of what happened that night at the frat party, including four women, but all of them kept it a secret until the journalist from Rolling Stone came calling.
This story would have us believe all of this, entirely based on the words of the accused, whose story was printed as the truth, without any real attempts to interview ANYONE else who could corroborate even the slightest detail.
Are you starting to see why some of us are calling BS on the whole thing? I don’t believe a word of it. You shouldn’t either.
12/3/2024 7:02 pm
I’m a first-year student at UVA, and I wrote this response a day or so after the Rolling Stone article was posted. I encourage you to read it off my facebook page. The link is below.
https://www.facebook.com/grant.gossage
12/3/2024 7:04 pm
I’m a 1st year at UVA and wrote this response to Rolling Stone article a day or so after it was published. I encourage you to copy and paste the link below and read it!
https://www.facebook.com/grant.gossage
12/3/2024 7:13 pm
From the R.S. article:
“A bruise still mottling her face, Jackie sat in Eramo’s office in May 2014 and told her about…”
Let’s see… the event took place at the end of September 2012.
In May 2014, “Jackie” still has a bruise mottling her face?
Supposedly from the same event?
More than a year and a half AFTER the event took place?
Or are we talking about a different event?
But then… why the word “still”?
12/3/2024 7:14 pm
@ChildTherapist
@ColRebSez wrote “How many times would the two of you guess that in say the last 50 years a good female friend of the victim of a really, really brutal rape has told her friend that she should look on the bright side, the rape gave her a chance to have sex with a lot of “hot” guys.”
He made clear that he was speaking to more than one person, and he asks a valid question - are you up for answering it?
I am also curious, as I have a hard time believing that a female friend would say this. That a friend, after seeing a bloody, punched in the face, friend would suggest that they “enjoy” that it happened?
That part of the story simply sounds fabricated. As a privileged white male, I do not understand - this is so far from own life experience I can only imagine it is fictional.
Based on your personal and professional experience, is this a common occurrence?
I would also ask - her other friends, who picked her up bloody and crying, suggested she not report it.. that it would impact their own chances of becoming members of a fraternity - is this something else you have experience with? This seems beyond callous. Again, this is not a case of “he said / she said”. This is someone who has immediate evidence of being physically assaulted. Does this fit with your professional experience?
You also wrote
“…but given your poor reading skills and inability to know who you are speaking with, I suppose that’s to be expected…”
I have never worked with a therapist who speaks this way, in person, or as part of their “online work”. Seeing you insult people that you disagree with comes across as unprofessional, and detracts from your message.
@anonymous
“I find it ridiculous that the UVa defenders on this site think the glass table is the smoking gun”
Yeah I agree too. I think that digging into these details is meaningless, along with whether or not they actually rushed, or had a party “Scheduled” that night. I think the “smoking gun” is that RS did not mention names, did not corroborate key aspects of the story, and did not interview any of the other principle actors in this story. I’m confident that given the names of the fraternity members, I could have contact information for them within 48 hours. I think it will also come out that her “friends” will have a different view of events than Jackie - and that is why their “view” was not included.
Afterall, “this is Jackie’s story”… translation: we didn’t do proper fact checking, and when it turns out to have holes in it, RS will throw Jackie to the dogs.
12/3/2024 7:36 pm
Is the broken glass element’s truthfulness important? I believe it is, because it isn’t open to interpretation. Either it happened, in which case the results must conform to the laws of physics, or it did not, in which case, it calls into question what other story elements are fictional.
Some elements are open to interpretation, such as how many rapists there were. A difference of one or two in the actual number of perpetrators involved is not a serious issue. Of course, if it were only “Drew” and one other who raped her, that changes the whole character of the story, so at some point the number of attackers becomes relevant.
But back to the broken glass. Keep in mind that the story describes the element as her “going through” the glass table. No mention is made of the remains of the table, such as the legs and frame being moved aside, but that isn’t a crucial omission. It can be assumed. Her being moved from the sharp remains of the table’s glass, if it happened, is an omission that can’t be overlooked, though. Her being moved from one place to another cannot be assumed, because if that had happened, the entire narrative would have to be different. Would have to. “They picked me up and tossed me onto the bed” is not a story element that a rape survivor would overlook or omit, IMO. It’s too major to be ignored, but there’s no reason (or if there is, it’s not presented, and such a reason would be unique enough to merit some explanation) to exclude a change of location within the room, especially given the broken glass from the table that she was lying on.
Remember, the broken glass is not something that commenters are speculating about. The story itself says they were under her, and digging into her. If it were safety glass, or the table’s glass had only broken in half, the story should have mentioned it. But the story said there were “sharp shards”, and reinforces it later, by describing her dress as “blood spattered”, which can only be interpreted as from the cuts in her back.
Given all that, anyone who wants to say that it was safety glass, or only a couple of large pieces is saying that the “broken glass” element of the story isn’t true, which calls into question what other parts of the story aren’t true.
But it cannot be both ways. You can’t have the victim “pounded” for “hours” while lying on “sharp shards” of glass, as the story describes, without the likelihood of serious damage, and if one wishes to speculate that the “sharp shards” didn’t exist as depicted in the story, then one calls into question the truth of the description as provided in the story.
There really can’t be a mistake or misinterpretation here. Either the table was broken into “sharp shards”, or there were no “sharp shards”. If there were “sharp shards” and blood, then how did she get “pounded” for hours, while avoiding serious injury? If there were no sharp shards, then what caused her to bleed enough to have a blood-spattered dress?
This is important, because it goes to the story’s consistency. If this were a matter of, say, a rape victim telling me about what had happened to her, the matter would be entirely different. I wouldn’t challenge her story, because doing so would be rude, and serve no useful purpose.
But this is no longer the victim’s story. This is a major story that is obviously expected to have a real-world impact, and a broad one. It is clearly intended to have influence. That by itself opens the story to examination, as it is no longer the private matter of a rape victim. The story is intended to have a considerable effect on others, against their will, and they have the right to know if the reasons for change are based in truth or fiction. The expectation to accept the story without examination and criticism is gone. If reform is needed, but the reforms that are implemented are based on fiction, not fact, then an injustice has been done, and a reform intended to fix a fictional problem, in this case, a tradition of systematic, premeditated gang rape, may not even fix an actual problem, if that tradition doesn’t exist. If the alternator on your car is dead, replacing the battery won’t help, and vice-versa.
If this were a story of a rape as it is conventionally understood, and how the victim was treated by the administration of the college was cold and indifferent, it would upset many people, but it wouldn’t be the basis for wholesale change of fraternities and university policies, which is the clear intent of the piece, whether limited to UVa or in a wider sense. Since the story as presented /would/ be a legitimate basis for such changes, then whether the story was embellished and exaggerated matters. Therefore, problematic internal inconsistencies matter.
Once again, it cannot go both ways. The story can’t be true as presented, but unimportant, because then the subsequent events would also be unimportant. As a national story, it would be a non-starter. On the other hand, the story cannot be untrue, or substantially untrue, and still be important. Drafting laws to prevent Brave New World from happening would be foolish and detrimental. They would be based on a work of fiction, and as such, might not only fail in their purpose (say, instead of BNW, the laws cause a society similar to 1984 to come to pass), they might also distract from problems that actually exist, such as rape on college campuses.
In summary, while the teller of the tale can be allowed some leeway for things they might be mistaken about, but major story elements, intended to grab the attention, if fictional, are deceptive.
And if you are going to deceive to product a desired result, you are indulging in “the ends justify the means”. Perhaps misguidedly, perhaps unknowingly, but you’re still doing it. Or so it seems to me, YMMV.
12/3/2024 8:18 pm
While doing some research, I came across this article in the UVa paper. Phi Psi stated publicly that they would cooperate with any investigation, and surrendered their Fraternal Organization Agreement. Is that the action of a frat that is actively engaged in a conspiracy? Perhaps. Perhaps all 80-odd members have participated in a gang-rape “initiation”, and therefore sufficiently fear prison that even a plea bargain couldn’t get any of them to “flip” on the others. Unfortunately, if enough members are questioned, enough documentation will be produced to determine consistency, and competent investigators know that too much consistency between stories is just as much a red flag as too little. How much variation is plausible to the investigators is something the students involved could not reasonably determine beforehand, IMO.
http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2014/11/letter-statement-from-phi-kappa-psi
12/3/2024 8:20 pm
@nemo
“Is the broken glass element’s truthfulness important?”
I don’t think it is. She could have fallen on a table, and a bottle could have broken, digging shards into her skin. If this turned out to be the case, would it discount the story as false?
Not really. In the dark, assaulted, and suddenly on your back, with glass digging into it? I might believe, and even remember, the experience of falling and breaking a glass table. I’ve been punched in the face hard enough to fall down, and my experience was different from what was described later to me. I remember being tackled from behind, when in fact, I was caught with a hook in my blindspot. Was I not assaulted? Did I fabricate the story of being tackled by a bouncer? No, I just got knocked the fuck out.
Focusing on the table as some proof that the gang rape never occurred seems to miss the forest for the trees.
12/3/2024 8:26 pm
There are clues to “Jackie,” “Drew,” and the seventh man who allegedly raped her.
Jackie and Drew worked as lifeguards at the UVa pool. As state employees, their identities are public record. A simple Freedom of Information Act request can reveal the names of all who worked as lifeguards. Take the list of names and cross check them with known members of the Phi Kappa Psi fraternity.
Suppose none match? Well, well.
There are several 1000 level anthropology courses at UVa: http://rabi.phys.virginia.edu/mySIS/CC2/Anthropology.html
Why not obtain a list of the students enrolled in ANTHO 1090 (“Colloquium designed to give first-year students an opportunity to study an anthropological topic in depth in a small-scale, seminar format. Topics will vary; may be repeated for credit.”) Which, if any, of those students was a member or pledge of Phi Kappa Psi?
Learning this might be very interesting.
12/3/2024 8:30 pm
The “TL;DR” version of the above just came to me. Why does it matter if the story is true as written? Let’s say that the story of a young woman being gang-raped by the college football team at halftime during a widely-known, dramatic, come-from-behind-victory game was published as the basis for shutting down the football program. Would it matter if she’d been raped by a member of another sports team in the parking lot of a different game?
Some may believe that the program should be shut down on the basis of that story, despite all the lives that would be impacted. I do not.
Facts matter.
12/3/2024 8:39 pm
Regarding the Rolling Stone article’s repeated use of glass, shattered and unshattered, a commenter points out this scene from Charlie Kaufman’s “Adaptation:”
DONALD KAUFMAN: Cool! Hey, my script’s going amazing! Right now I’m working out an Image System. Bob calls it an invaluable asset. Because of my multiple personality theme, I’ve chosen the motif of broken mirrors to show my protagonist’s fragmented self. Bob teaches that an Image System greatly increases the complexity of an aesthetic emotion.
12/3/2024 8:52 pm
How refreshing to have this story questioned. I was immediately reminded of the ”recovered memory” hoaxes in the 1990s, especially those involving satanic rituals. [Please note that I am aware the RS story under discussion is not based on a recovered memory.] The similarities are there, however, especially the uncritical reporting, then and now.
12/3/2024 9:37 pm
The accumulation of implausible details about glass bottles and shattered glass suggests strongly that the reporter didn’t question her source carefully. In some ways, it suggests that Ms. Erdely wasn’t being consciously dishonest or she would have left out the glass table altogether. I suspect she was going more for literary effect than factuality.
was going more for literary effect than
12/3/2024 11:36 pm
@Nemo
“Would it matter if she’d been raped by a member of another sports team in the parking lot of a different game? ”
no it is more like saying “Would it matter if she’d been raped on astroturf when it was reported it was a grass field”.
SHE IS OBVIOUSLY LYING IVE BEEN ON THAT FIELD IT IS ASTROTURF
NO WAY SHE WOULD HAVE HAD RUGBURNS ON HER BACK SHE IS LYING THIS RAPE NEVER HAPPENED.
THAT FIELD IS NOT GRASS I WENT TO SCHOOL THERE. WOMEN OVER REPORT RAPE.
JOURNALIST DID NOT RESEARCH THIS STORY IT IS FALSE
12/4/2024 1:15 am
I find the broken glass and blood imagery disturbing and highly unlikely. People do not fornicate on broken glass. Even if you buy into the gang rape story, you really should ask if the rapists are going to do this to themselves. In addition, with all that blood they’re running the risk of having a dead girl on the premises. That’s a lot harder to explain.
Then there’s the bottle incident. More broken glass but only a bruise. Even if that bruise is described as blood red, what kind of bottle breaks against your face without cutting?
And as I was reading this suddenly a passage from a no longer remembered book came into my mind. A psychologist was telling about treating a young woman for anxiety. One of her dreams was of driving her car when an object struck the windshield, breaking it, and leaving her with cuts. She was terrified that she was not going to able to arrive at her destination.
The psychologist finally discovered that she had recently lost her virginity in what she had assumed was a long term relationship if not an engagement. The man had broken up with her and now (this was a long time ago, 60 years at least) she worried if she would ever be accepted by another man.
I’m not saying Jackie wasn’t raped, but this story doesn’t prove it. Especially when a superficial fishing of the subject has already produced discrepancies.
I doubt the cold, calculated extensive of this. There are sociopaths at all strata of society, and highly intelligent sociopaths have to be the worst of all. But there’s no way under the sun you have this as an initiation rite and word hasn’t gotten out until this story.
It’s like investments, if it’s too good to be true…Well, when you find the perfect or you craft the perfect story it’s well us on the outside looking in to be investing in salt by the handful.
Let’s not loose touch with Mr. Bradley’s cautionary fable of how he was duped by Stephen Glass (surely, not a pseudonym) who was consciously playing to Bradley’s biases.
I also suspect this young woman has other issues. As a previous poster said, “Beware of people who lead interesting lives.”
Too much glass and not enough transparency.
12/4/2024 1:25 am
Reading the comments here and on other boards, I keep coming across an interesting common thread.
Many of the people who believe “Jackies’ ” story say they know someone who was raped and that person didn’t report the rape. What’s even more remarkable, many of the same people report that they know multiple women who were raped but never reported these assaults. These people almost speak with PRIDE; they BRAG about it; ‘I KNOW SOMEONE WHO WAS RAPED’. (*For the record, if I knew someone who was raped and I didn’t help them report it I wouldn’t boast about it; I would feel nothing but shame and guilt for the rest of my life).
No woman has ever told me she was raped. I have never known a woman who was skittish being alone with me suggesting that they felt comfortable being around me, ‘a potential rapist’.
I’ll repeat what I said before. Anyone who knows of a rape and doesn’t report the rapist is guilty of enabling the rapist to continue victimizing other women. They are as guilty of rape as the rapist. They have no right to criticize people who question them if they refuse to stop future rapes. I would suggest they be forced to wear t-shirts that say, “I DON’T REPORT RAPE”. If you know of a rape and didn’t report it, you should be forced to wear this phrase in shame.
Feminists tell me ‘men need to take responsibility’. When are women who say they know someone who was raped going to take responsibility for reporting these crimes? You want men to stop rapes yet women won’t even report them.
Not reporting rape IS the RAPE CULTURE you complain about. If you know about a rape and you don’t report it you are a RAPIST ENABLER. And if you know of rapes and you didn’t report them YOU ARE GUILTY OF PERPETUATING RAPE CULTURE.
If you didn’t report the rape to the police STOP BRAGGING ABOUT KNOWING A VICTIM OF RAPE as if it’s a badge of honor.
I have also yet to see any feminists demanding a full criminal investigation. Yes, there have been protests and demands that colleges take a greater role in preventing, investigating, and prosecuting rapes but no feminist group seems to be interested in finding the men who allegedly committed this crime or prosecuting them.
The question is why?
The reason is obvious. Feminists know this gang rape didn’t happen. They’re not asking for a criminal investigation because that would uncover the truth that there was no gang rape. The truth has no political value. The lie does.
Not investigating this lie allows them to ‘demand action’ so to speak. The truth is inconsequential. The value of this rape narrative lie is that it gives them power and legitimacy when they deserve neither.
Lying for a greater purpose is immoral and criminal and should be prosecuted as a crime.
Until I see the results of a full criminal investigation I will continue to believe this story is largely a wild, exaggerated fabrication if not an outright lie or worse a fiction created by the author to push her own agenda.
This story is now largely out in the open. There is no reason for ‘Jackie’ not to at least talk to the police. Does she not want justice for herself and all the women these men victimized? If not what’s the point of even talking about this if there is no justice? WHY even tell this story?
If ‘Jackie’ told us she was aware of a murder when no body was ever discovered or a person even reported missing would we believe her that there was a murder?
If ‘Jackie’ personally told you that she saw a murder and you didn’t report it would you brag about it saying, ‘I know someone who saw a murder’? And if you did go around bragging do you believe that people would not have the right, the obligation to ask follow-up questions?
signed,
sbn
12/4/2024 1:39 am
[…] told through the first person account of a young woman. The story has come under scrutiny in recent days for relying solely on the alleged victim’s account and failing to make any attempts to […]
12/4/2024 1:45 am
Skeptic: What kind of bottle gets smashed into a person’s face and doesn’t break? Most longneck beer bottles. Hollywood bottles break easily and harmlessly. They are specially made to do that. In my younger days, I went to bars that were, shall we say, not exactly “Cheers”. I’ve seen people get clocked by beer bottles, and never saw one break. Also, getting hit that hard with a beer bottle is likely to produce concussion or near-concussion symptoms. It’s perfectly possible for Jackie to have been hit in the face by a thrown beer bottle and only gotten a bruise, and without the bottle breaking. beer bottles are made to resist breakage, after all.
Anonymous, there’s no need to shout. The premise of the above condensed version is that Jackie has actually been raped, but in a more commonly understood way, as far as people generally picture rape, but the story that was published may well have been an embellished version. Which isn’t to say that it was necessarily a lie, even if it doesn’t conform to reality.
So no, it is not a matter of “natural grass” vs. “Astroturf”.
12/4/2024 1:54 am
Here’s my take on Mr. Bradley’s contribution to reason:
http://takimag.com/article/a_rape_hoax_for_book_lovers_steve_sailer#axzz3KpNDS6hs
12/4/2024 2:28 am
Going back to this point, from a commenter early on, and echoing one of my first reactions to this nonsensical contribution to the hate porn genre:
“But the part that stinks the most is that supposedly each of her THREE friends she met outside the frat house all advised her against going to the police, despite there having allegedly been copious evidence – bruises, cuts, semen – for her to file charges. And all three of them tell her not to go.”
I agree. But how come the writer of this odious piece of porn has not stopped to reflect that if this is true, then the primary enablers of “rape culture” on the UVA campus are not the administration…but women who cover up other women’s gang rapes lest they not get invited to frat parties? I know, I know, this would distract from the agenda of demonizing white men-those “blond tanned” himbos she refers to in the piece.
This is clearly the fevered fantasies of someone filled with resentments because she is on the outside of “white Southern preppy” culture (meaning white gentile) looking in. This entire pack of lies reads to me like some sort of reverse Protocols of the Elders of Zion-Jewish fantasies about what really goes on in the dark inner halls of WASP culture. It is sickening…and of course Rolling Stone has been a sick and fevered outlet of mistruth its entire history.
BTW I base my views in part on having been called the “token shiksa” in my graduate department at UPenn, the Annenberg School for Communication. I was always amazed by the projections leveled at me for being a blonde woman of European Protestant ancestry. My family was very poor working class (industrial, shipbuilding), and by then, in a Rust Belt town. I was at Penn on full academic scholarship with 99th percentile GREs. I knew as little about the power corridors of WASPs as any of the Marxist Jewish lesbians who quoted Derrida as their Leviticus; it made no sense for me to be identified as that. I have watched my entire life as this toxic straw WASP has been repeatedly constructed and repeatedly burned by the infotainment/spectacle/bread and circuses industry. In which, might I add, many of my grad school colleagues work.
This article is simply sickening. I am open to learning that there is evidence behind it, but I see a hatchet job by a sick mind plagued with fantasies…and poisoned by its own power over the lives of others.
12/4/2024 3:51 am
@Steve Sailer
Regarding the parallels between the Thomas Wolfe novels and the later true incidents such as Martin-Zimmerman, one might say that history repeats itself: first as farce, then as tragedy.
12/4/2024 5:45 am
[…] Bradley writes of the Rolling Stone piece: “I’m not sure that I believe it. I’m not convinced that this gang rape actually happened. Something about this story doesn’t feel right… […]
12/4/2024 5:49 am
“Michael Provus, Publisher”
Promoted from associate publisher, July 7, 2014. “Provus is succeeding Chris McLoughlin, who announced he was leaving amid some chaos at the magazine.”
Michael H. Provus, 40, of Morristown, N.J., mprovus @ aol
Rolling Stone media kit; Chris O’Shea; Westlaw PeopleMap.
12/4/2024 6:00 am
[…] Bradley writes of the Rolling Stone piece: “I’m not sure that I believe it. I’m not convinced that this gang rape actually happened. Something about this story doesn’t feel right… […]
12/4/2024 8:06 am
Nemo:
I didn;t ask what kind of bottle hits without breaking, I asked what kind of bottle hits you in the face, break and doesn’t CUT you. That was where my credulity was strained. If a bottle hits you hard enough to break, you have been dealt a serious blow that might even knock you down.
And yes, in my younger years, I have in bars where congeniality didn’t always reign and I saw people throw beer bottles and try to break them in their hands They don’t break as easily as the spun sugar ones they use in the movies; and of course those ones don’t cut either. Perhaps Jackie was on a movie set when the bottle hit her outside the bar.
12/4/2024 9:46 am
[…] stories written by Glass that confirmed his preconceived notions about the world, and that some elements of the story merited further scrutiny before the story was used as a vehicle to push the national narrative […]
12/4/2024 10:45 am
If the general sentiment found in the majority of these comments is reflective of our society as a whole, I’m terrified to be living around you people.
Skepticism is one thing, but suggesting that the woman who was the subject of the article fabricated it all to save face after a rape fantasy gone bad is repulsive beyond belief. That type of thinking perpetuates the notion that we have males in our society that could engage in something like gang rape.
Some of the ideas commenters are pitching in this thread to support arguments they have no way of knowing are true are on the same level of evil and show the same lack of morality as the frat boys you are defending.
12/4/2024 11:16 am
UVA should be pissed, but if this story pans out to be false, the entire Phi Kappa Psi fraternity should be receiving a major apology from Erdley, the Rolling Stone, and anyone who immediately jumped to believe this crazy ass story.
12/4/2024 11:17 am
Did anyone here devote this level of skeptical scrutiny to the testimony of Darren Wilson?
12/4/2024 11:38 am
Anonymous at 11:17,
Id be glad to devote the same level of scrutiny to the testimony of the accused in this case that I applied to the testimony of Darren Wilson. Can you provide a link to it?
12/4/2024 12:47 pm
[…] some ammo, something to point to as “proof” that nothing needs to change. Recent articles from Richard Bradley, editor in chief of Worth, and Robby Soave of Reason questioning whether Jackie’s story is […]
12/4/2024 1:58 pm
There were a few more details about the story that struck me as fishy. 1) Glass is heavy; every glass table I have seen has a sturdy metal or wooden frame. If you fall into such a frame, and are lying on your back, your position would be such that it would be physically nearly impossible for anyone to penetrate you sexually. 2) Glass shards are extremely damaging to the human body; I can’t imagine even a very drunk rapist risking damage to their private parts by kneeling down in glass shards. 3) The 7 Society is a U Va honorary society and the number 7 is painted on sidewalks, steps, etc, everywhere around the Grounds; if you asked someone at U Va to come up with a number at random, I’ll bet 7 would be the most common answer.
12/4/2024 2:03 pm
[…] stories written by Glass that confirmed his preconceived notions about the world, and that some elements of the story merited further scrutiny before the story was used as a vehicle to push the national narrative […]
12/4/2024 3:22 pm
@Skeptic. Apologies, I misread your comment, probably because I left off the RS article after the rape scene was concluded. My error.
Terrified: Are you saying that all rape stories must be believed without question, regardless of how unbelievable they are, and that we must make policy from such stories without question? Interesting. Does that mean if I tell about the time I was raped by 12 man-hating feminists, in revenge for the rape culture, policy must be made based on that, without questioning the veracity of that story?
Of course, the story I posit is ridiculous on its face, and untrue, but it serves a point. If rape stories cannot be questioned, than neither can one like that, even when it is being presented as the basis of a change in policy. Your judgement as to what you find believable doesn’t apply if my judgement doesn’t apply. Principles and laws are funny that way. They don’t exist solely for your benefit. If they do not apply equally, then they are unfair.
@MD Google for ‘cnn ferguson grand jury’. The Wilson testimony block is flagged at volume 5.
@Anonymous: I have. Not only his testimony, but also to how the police in that area have carefully managed the narrative around the shooting, and how the prosecutor deftly used the grand jury to avoid indictment while preventing any political repercussions to anyone “on the team”. Read Radley Balko for more on police misconduct and the structural racism in the St. Louis area, and Carlos Miller’s PINAC for more on police misconduct in general. HTH.
12/4/2024 3:42 pm
@MD Google for ‘cnn ferguson grand jury’. The Wilson testimony block is flagged at volume 5.
Nemo, I meant the testimony of the accused in the UVA story.
Read my comment carefully.
12/4/2024 3:46 pm
I have a pretty low bar for journalists these days, but this one manages to come under it. She does Jackie a huge disservice by failing to provide ANY other sources who could refute or corroborate the most important aspects of the story. The only other sources besides Jackie are University administrators who say only their policy and that they had spoken to her. I understand that the reporter had promised Jackie she would not name names of the men for fear of backlash, but I wonder if she explained to Jackie how this might look to outsiders with no knowledge of the events.
I was skeptical in first couple paragraphs because the reporter goes out of her way to put Jackie up on a pedestal as some perfect but naive angel. All of those things about her may be true, but it seemed forced to me. Another disservice to Jackie.
Rape, especially violent rape, and especially gang rape, is a very serious accusation. The accused should have been given a chance to speak for themselves. The reporter said she reached out to them but “they are kind of hard to get in touch with because the fraternity’s contact list is out of date.” She doesn’t mention any other methods nor does she mention contacting the three friends who urged Jackie not to go to the hospital. This is 2014. If she wanted to get in touch with those she could have. Maybe they wouldn’t have responded, but she could have reached them. Even without the Internet there many ways to reach them for comment. She does a disservice to the field of journalism by accusing these men of rape (and there are probably people who could figure out who they are from the story) a chance to comment. And “kind of hard to get in touch with” does meet the standard of professional journalism.
So this reporter didn’t do her job and now Jackie’s story seems less credible if credible at all. If Jackie was assaulted, even not in the way described in the story, the reporter should be ashamed of herself for putting Jackie in this position. She wanted a cover story, wanted to make a name for herself and so wrote this account full of drama and with little credible facts because those would make the story less dramatic.
RS did check facts with the sources, but Jackie was the only important source, so that’s no help at all. The university officials provided no helpful evidence, so that’s also no help.
I never like to automatically assume a girl would lie about something like this. But I can name off the top of my head five girls who have lied about being sexually assaulted for different reasons. It happens a lot. There are probably almost as many fabricated accounts as unreported ones. And these fabrications make it more difficult for real victims. The girl who cries rape screws over the one who actually got raped. If this account is completely fabricated, partially fabricated, or just exaggerated then this reporter is also screwing over actual victims and should be fired.
12/4/2024 4:46 pm
I too had similar thoughts about the glass coffee table, among other things.
Here’s the thing about glass coffee tables: most of them have a metal or wooden frame to hold them up. Very, very few of them are made entirely of glass. Take a minute and Google “glass coffee table” and you’ll see what I mean.
And even if you accept that they had a very rare, perhaps expensive, all-glass coffee table, the shards of glass would be enough to case serious, if not fatal damage-even tempered glass. I had my car broken into one time and the passenger window shattered and even after I vacuumed the car, carefully picking up the remaining pieces led to cuts. Even if the glass table thing happened, the first thing they would have done would have been to move her to a place in the room more conducive to the act.
Moreover, it seems highly unlikely that the rape lasted 3 hours with only 7 men involved and that she was on her back (in glass) the whole time. Horned up, college boys at the peak of their sexual powers wouldn’t likely take long before they expended themselves. That’s an average of more than 16 minutes per guy, rolling around in what would have had to have been a TON of broken glass shards, before finally finishing. I don’t think so. If they were having their fun with her for an average of almost 17 minutes each, they would have had her in multiple positions, not just on her back, leading to many other multiple injuries on her body (not to mention their junk).
People (men and women) are capable of terrible things, but when they do them, the facts support what happened. The facts simply don’t support “Jackie’s” story.
12/4/2024 4:50 pm
[…] of the first arguments along these lines appeared on the personal blog of the author and magazine editor Richard Bradley , who concludes that he’s “not convinced that […]
12/4/2024 6:00 pm
Stephen Glass and Sabrina Rubin were colleagues at The Daily Pennsylvanian. Glass’s roommate was his predecessor as Executive Editor, his girlfriend Jordana Horn was his successor and her handpicked man after that.
12/4/2024 6:30 pm
“One would think that we’d have heard of this before—gang rape as a fraternity initiation is hard to keep secret—but it’s possible.”
Gang rapes happen on college campuses, and they especially happen within fraternities; in fact, a widely acclaimed 1990 book entitled Fraternity Gang Rape: Sex, Brotherhood, and Privilege on Campus detailed the trend.
“Gang rape has become somewhat of an epidemic on college campuses,” explained a 1991 review of that book published in the American Journal of Sociology. “The victim, often rendered unconscious by spiked drinks or drugs at a fraternity party, is unable to resist. Afterward, the men rationalize the event in terms of a sexual encounter that brought them together as brothers.”
In response:
“It’s not hard to find additional evidence. Right after Rolling Stone published its UVA investigation, the Washington Post reported that Jackie’s story “bears a striking similarity to other stories of fraternity gang rape,” based on the academic research in the field. There are plenty of headlines along these lines, too — gang rapes reported at a Johns Hopkins frat party, in a William Paterson University dorm, in a Vanderbilt University dorm.”
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/12/04/3599753/skeptics-uva-gang-rape/
And so on. I don’t know you, Richard, so I can’t say what your personal history, or even your general ideology, might be. But perhaps it “didn’t feel right” to you because you haven’t actually educated yourself about this subject. Perhaps this and the other recent rape scandals that are finally getting noticed will educate all of us.
12/4/2024 6:36 pm
AP ONLINE MEDIA LAW GUIDE, 2014 ed.
Publishing
Can I be sued by someone I do not name?
… In a news broadcast reporting [a] rape of a woman who was not named … the court found that a reasonable viewer could conclude the broadcast was about the plaintiff because it identified the college she attended, the type of car she was driving and the college at which she had attended a party shortly before the rape.
… Remember to be careful of descriptive phrases that may give rise to cases of mistaken identity. A report that “an elderly janitor for a local school” was arrested could lead to suits from every elderly janitor in the school district.
MIT CRIME CLUB EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
The data suggest that publisher Michael H. Provus, 40, of Morristown, N.J., wanted to publish some rape pornography but didn’t want to get sued, so he altered any descriptive phrases that could mistakenly identify someone as a suspect.
12/4/2024 9:26 pm
[…] of the first arguments along these lines appeared on the personal blog of the author and magazine editor Richard Bradley, who concludes that he’s “not convinced […]
12/5/2024 3:32 am
One thing no one has mentioned is that a bottle hitting “Jackie” in the face hard enough to break in the harassment incident, would do more than merely cause a bruise. Glass bottles are thick and for the bottle to break against her face there was quite a lot of force and speed involved. That much force would have at least broken her skin if not broken the bone of her cheek, possibly the orbit of her eye. Instead the breaking bottle gave her a mere bruise while shattering like a Hollywood prop bottle. Possible but highly unlikely. It’s a detail that adds verisimilitude to the story, but just doesn’t ring true.
12/5/2024 8:18 am
Anonymous, all of those cases involve 3 to 4 men. In Jackie’s case it was double of that. And no all that studies only studies of behavior of fraternity members but none can prove that a gang rape happens more likely in fraternity than others because there is no crime statistics that shows fraternity members rape more than other students, even that book of Fraternity Gang Rape.
It’s also notable that rape cases that happens in fraternities usually involves non fraternity members, in fact the Johns Hopkins Frat Party both the victim and rapists are not even students of the university.
Caitlin Flanagan, an expert in this case also said usually these cases involve alcohol and mostly done by non fraternity members. That’s what more striking about Jackie’s case; the rapists doesn’t even bother making her drunk and she was completely conscious the whole time. Predatory rapists always use alcohol to make the victim unable to remember or fight back.
12/5/2024 8:29 am
[…] have raised legitimate questions about the veracity of a front page Rolling Stone story titled A Rape on […]
12/5/2024 11:08 am
[…] of the first arguments along these lines appeared on the personal blog of the author and magazine editor Richard Bradley, who concludes that he’s “not convinced that […]
12/5/2024 12:41 pm
The least credible part of the story is the implication that rape is expected of pledges as part of initiation. As a UVa fraternity alum i find this completely unimaginable (and should say, as for my house, gang rape is completely foreign to my experience). if rape was an initiation expectation there would be many victims, not all of them wanting to remain silent about the treatment. the article reports a staff member meets with victims, thus the university would be aware of multiple cases at the same house. no way a dean who’s life work is rape prevention is doing nothing about systemic rape at a specific fraternity.
Obviously the allegation comes only as a remark Jackie overhears between two accused rapists and isn’t a clear accusation that rape is a requirement to membership in the fraternity. But the implication is unfathomable.
12/5/2024 1:59 pm
And Rolling Stone has just issued a retraction on the article. Well Done Mr. Bradley - looks like you are a better journalist than the writers and editors at RS or most of the mainstream media.
12/5/2024 2:06 pm
And of course Rolling Stone has now issued an “apology” stating in part:
“In the face of new information, there now appear to be discrepancies in Jackie’s account, and we have come to the conclusion that our trust in her was misplaced. ”
Certainly seems that there is much amiss in this tale.
The sad thing is will set back legitimate campus sexual assault claims as well.
As for the believability, I never heard of any sort of ‘gang rape’ during my time as a fraternity member, either by greeks or no-greeks.
UVa is a unique situation (I live in Virginia). The reputation of the University trumps all and it always has. There are children of many powerful and influential people who go to school there and they occasionally wield that power.
But something here clearly doesn’t add up.
12/5/2024 2:08 pm
Two points I found doubtful:
(1) That a bunch of guys would wait in a dark bedroom for the chance that Jackie would say yes to Drew’s request to come up to a bedroom. What if she had said no to Drew’s question; would these guys have just waited in the room for another hour and miss out on the entire party? In other words, all these guys opted to miss out on the party and the women in attendance in the off chance that Jackie would say yes to Drew’s invitation.
(2) Jackie’s friends weren’t at the party and, therefore, weren’t seen with her or known about by the fraternity, yet they are concerned that if she reports the rape that they won’t be let into other fraternities. How would anyone in the frat world know to associate Andy and Randall with Jackie? And if no one would logically associate them, why would they have a supposed fear of not being let into frats?
12/5/2024 2:27 pm
Just curious, but does anyone know if ‘Jackie’ is black or white?
12/5/2024 3:04 pm
@LL,
In fact, the number 7 is the most commonly pick number out of 10 regardless of which University you went to or if you even went to college. I know because I took a psych class at UVA where this experiment was run in class, and I raised the same objection to the result being 7 (i.e., that the number 7 is literally plastered everywhere around Grounds and we were therefore biased). My professor sent out the primary literature showing that this result is repeated regardless of the study population.
12/5/2024 3:08 pm
I have a question. How the hell do you rape a woman in a PITCH DARK ROOM? Why would they not wear stocking cap masks? Seriously how do yo see her freaking vagina in a pitch black room? It says PITCH DARK. That means no light whatsoever… You got broken glass all over the floor? Who wants sloppy seconds? I wanna stick my dick in some girls pucci after 6 other guys been shooting their wad. I’d be like F this fraternity. Not worth it. Yeah sounds freaking unbelievable to me. If it is untrue the editor of Rolling Stone should be fired.
12/5/2024 3:12 pm
Just for the sake of argument. Let’s say it is untrue. Why did this Jackie tell this story? That right there is a huge question and only that writer or Rolling Stone knows Jackie or the details.
12/5/2024 3:39 pm
[…] magazine’s admission came shortly after stories published here, here and […]
12/5/2024 3:47 pm
Now that Rolling Stone has apologized and retracted the story and all of Jackie’s friends say she is lying, I think it is a good idea to explain to people how to identify a false story.
If something sounds a little bit funny, it just throws up a red flag. It doesn’t mean the story is false, just that you need to look a little closer. When you hear a story with eight or 10 highly improbable or questionable assertions, it’s time to say “something doesn’t seem right here” and demand additional information. If the needed corroborative evidence is intentionally concealed, then the story is likely false.
So it wasn’t just the broken glass, or that nine guys participated, or that she was stone cold sober, or that parties don’t go until 3 a.m., or that she refused to call the police, or that her friends told her she should have enjoyed the brutal rape, or any of about 10 other things. It was the whole package that made it seem like the giant lie that it is.
I recently filed a case for a client, and if you read the pleadings you would believe that either my clients or that I were lying or embellishing the truth. The claim is just outlandish in terms of the defendant’s conduct. BUT, I spent a day gathering documents, and they are right at the end of the complaint, labeled Exhibits A-H. If you were to read the complaint, when you got to the exhibits you would probably go, “Holy crap, this is true — I can’t believe it!” It didn’t take much effort at all to attach the proof with the complaint, and it wouldn’t have taken much effort for Rolling Stone to have provided a little supporting proof for Jackie’s claim. They didn’t, and that in and of itself is indicative of the fact that everybody involved was engaged in a giant fraud.
12/5/2024 3:55 pm
So Mr. Bradley got taken by a reporter who played into his biases, and he has since learned to be skeptical of reports. But he also thinks that “premeditated gang rape . . . seems to be most prevalent in war-torn lands or countries with a strain of a punitive, misogynist and violent religious culture (Pakistan, for example).” So much for trying to be free of biases. I guess the next reporter just needs to recount a premeditated gang rape carried out by Pakis and Mr. Bradley will buy it. Can’t be our nice white boys. He’s skeptical of that - the story just doesn’t add up, according to any number of preconceived biases of what is likely and what is not. And his readers join right in imagining the truth in the dark recesses of their biases. Pathetic.
12/5/2024 4:32 pm
dd, have you read Rolling Stone’s apology and redaction yet? You going to apologize?
I think not.
12/5/2024 4:40 pm
[…] magazine’s admission came shortly after stories published here, here and […]
12/5/2024 5:02 pm
Apologize for what? I don’t have to go along with the Rolling Stone. I get to have my own views. All I did was point out the biases among the skeptics. I’d say the onus is on them to apologize for essentially making stuff up.
So now the press has found some inconsistencies between Jackie’s story and the facts. The inconsistencies are actually fairly minor and easy to understand, given how the memory is known to work, even more so for people undergoing trauma. But instead the discrepancies are being used to wholesale dismiss the entire incident (all the while claiming that rape is a problem - just didn’t happen in this fraternity - having it both ways). A likely story. Why is no one being skeptical of that?
I can be skeptical too. I don’t think that it is a coincidence that the rush to dismiss the alleged rape because of some inconsistencies in the story is being done on behalf of a rich and powerful fraternity. I suspect that the fraternity’s lawyers got busy and scared the heck out of everyone.
Hey, if we’re going to be skeptical, let’s be skeptical. I think you should apologize for not being skeptical enough.
12/5/2024 5:03 pm
Sue Sabrina Rubin Erdely & Rolling Stone Mag.
12/5/2024 5:20 pm
[…] magazine's admission came shortly after stories published here, here and […]
12/5/2024 5:22 pm
Thanks, Get a Lawyer, for making my point: if you don’t have anything but bias (in the name of skepticism no less), use force.
12/5/2024 5:38 pm
dd
Do you really think that Rolling Stone would write, “…we have come to the conclusion that our trust in her was misplaced.” if the concern was simply over a few hazy “minor inconsistencies” from a traumatized victim?
Don’t diminish your justified outrage over violence against women by grasping tightly to a sinking ship of a STORY.
12/5/2024 5:45 pm
[…] n' t'Rolleeun' Stone articull. Un 24 Novemb'r, auther an' magazine editer Richard Bradley sed t'facks presantid n' t'stery wuz difficult ta bleev an' at Erdley broke a “cardinal rule” […]
12/5/2024 5:50 pm
Yes I do think that. List the actual inconsistencies and think about how the memory works. True stories sometimes sink into oblivion. That’s no measure of their veracity - it is more a measure of politics and power and bias. History is littered with the voices of pain and suffering of people whose experiences were not recorded, lost, and dismissed by supposed skeptics. The supposed sinking of the story is being done a promote another STORY. Why’s that so hard to get?
12/5/2024 5:53 pm
LEGENDARY
12/5/2024 5:55 pm
“Well Done Mr. Bradley – looks like you are a better journalist than the writers and editors at RS or most of the mainstream media.” -commenter cwill
exactly.
12/5/2024 5:57 pm
If you read the comment in RS following the original article you would have seen some of the following:
1) Law firm actively seeking clients to sue any and all universities.
2) Some “rape culture” advocates were naming names of people they guessed did the rapes….
It is time for the people injured by the article and the comments to find good attorneys and cash in on RS and some of the people who posted comments.
12/5/2024 6:13 pm
Tully
Guessing the names of people who might have done the rapes is a problem. If they can show damage, they need to go after the guessers, not RS or Erdely, who were smart enough not to do that.
12/5/2024 6:23 pm
Some lessons I will take from all these events.
- innocent until proven guilty
- trial by jury based on facts
- accused is entitled to a defense
- do not try people in the press
Very different story if these were applied
12/5/2024 6:24 pm
The most implausible aspect of this is that she was unnoticed by those at the party.
Frat parties are the deeply anticipated pinnacle of the week when everyone is noticing everyone as the mating ritual unfolds.
And for every fellow that has sex, then there are 10 that are envious that they did not. Those envious 10 would have surely noticed those exiting a 3 hour long orgy and if the lady was bleeding with torn clothes and emotional distress, the envious would have protested loudly; each of them vying to come to the damsel in distress.
12/5/2024 6:26 pm
[…] nine assailants call her “it” throughout the attack, in a sadistic touch that Richard Bradley, skeptical of the article, compares to Silence of the Lambs (“It rubs the lotion on its skin”). But, as Bradley notes, […]
12/5/2024 6:31 pm
[…] nine assailants call her “it” throughout the attack, in a sadistic touch that Richard Bradley, skeptical of the article, compares to Silence of the Lambs (“It rubs the lotion on its skin”). But, as Bradley notes, […]
12/5/2024 6:52 pm
dd- “The supposed sinking of the story is being done a promote another STORY. Why’s that so hard to get?”
Why would Rolling Stone sink its own story? What other story are they trying to promote by completely discrediting their only source?
Answer that or “why it is so hard to get” should be obvious - even to you.
12/5/2024 6:58 pm
Some lessons for the victims:
- get the evidence!
- power wills itself: you will most likely be erased from the historical narratives of the powerful
- the bias of power will always have the advantage of the status quo
- innocence (or guilt) in court is not the same as innocence (or guilt) in fact
- never give up the cause: it will be an uphill struggle but major changes happen nonetheless
Rape victims need to be taught to get the evidence: rape kits and corroborating evidence: witnesses, etc.
Unfortunately, many victims are too young, innocent, nice and naive people who don’t have the knowledge and inclination to do what they need to do while traumatized. Rapists rely on this. That’s why applying legal standards often obfuscated the truth. Some people are more concerned with the truth of history than they are with legalism and self-willed power.
And then here we go with the biased “just so” stories again. . . . Why be skeptical when one can be biased?
12/5/2024 7:11 pm
[…] nine assailants call her “it” throughout the attack, in a sadistic touch that Richard Bradley, skeptical of the article, compares to Silence of the Lambs (“It rubs the lotion on its skin”). But, as Bradley notes, […]
12/5/2024 7:21 pm
Mightycav
The answer to your question is the story of the innocence of the powerful frat and non-existence of “rape culture” which is being promulgated now - RS is not trying to outwardly promote that story but to not stand in the way of it. They don’t want to stand up against the very powerful with a narrative which has any inconsistencies at all in it. Believe me, if it wasn’t a powerful frat, the narrative would not have turned on a dime the way that it did. What would have happened if it supposedly happened in a minority community?
I don’t really know what happened that night, which is really is a matter of competing stories. But I do know how power works, how to be skeptical, and how one narrative can replace another, regardless what what actually happened.
Mightycav is name of power, no?
I think I’ll change mine to Truecav. Or Skepticav. Let me think about that.
12/5/2024 8:30 pm
Well done on the article. You made your mark. Rape is serious, but so are false allegations.
12/5/2024 8:42 pm
[…] integrity, Rolling Stone has decided to back-pedal and apologize for the story after finding discrepancies, by issuing a “note to its readers.” The note will be republished here in full, for the […]
12/5/2024 8:53 pm
derp - there’s no false or true here, there are just competing narratives. Nobody knows what happened, yourself included. All we have are biased and skeptics. The truth is that not many people have the guts to be skeptical about power.
12/5/2024 11:25 pm
[…] magazine’s acknowledgment came shortly after stories published here, here and […]
12/5/2024 11:29 pm
[…] magazine’s admission came shortly after stories published here, here and […]
12/6/2024 12:19 am
“A young woman is lured to a fraternity in order to be gang-raped as part of a fraternity initiation. It’s a premeditated gang rape. I am not, thankfully, an expert on premeditated gang rape, but to the extent that it exists, it seems to be most prevalent in war-torn lands or countries with a strain of a punitive, misogynist and violent religious culture (Pakistan, for example).” I can follow some of your logic in critiquing the RS article, but here you really sound naive. To set up this strawman as if this only can happen in “backwards” countries and it’s the choice between that and rite of passage at our universities is intellectually dishonest.
12/6/2024 12:27 am
Honestly, my first thiught within reading the opening paragraphs of the Rolling Stone piece was, “This sounds like something Stephen Glass would write,” followed seconds later by, “Wow, I’m such a jaded jerk.”
Thanks for your great post. It really clarifies what it is about us that makes us susceptibe to believing fabricated stories.
12/6/2024 12:41 am
What I don’t understand: it was so dark that she couldn’t identify the men raping her, but it was light enough that the men who didn’t participate could see what was going on enough to shout encouragement? Doesn’t make sense.
12/6/2024 1:03 am
The only power the fraternity has in this case is the TRUTH. Before the recent developments surrounding the facts of the case, Phi Psi was closed down, vandalized, picketed, windows broken, brotherhood harassed and generally vilified in the media. Exactly how did they exhibit any power until they finally stood up for themselves and it was disclosed that everything that tied them to the incident is now in serious dispute?
I’ve read no one here that has tried to justify violence against women or say that rapes don’t happen. They do; although I’m not convinced there is a prevalent “rape culture” at UVa - whatever that exactly means. I do agree with dd’s “lessons learned” and hope much good will come from the “story”. Rape is a criminal act and needs to treated as such.
However, before this thread was hijacked, it started in response to a blog that questioned facts and journalistic integrity regarding one specific, sensational story. The story in question has subsequently become so unraveled that the initial publisher has completely backed off and directly called their sole source of the piece untrustworthy. In the meantime, reputations have been severely tainted. So at this point there is a “false or true here” that deserves to be explored just as thoroughly as the victim’s claims.
12/6/2024 1:17 am
[…] 24 November, author and repository editor Richard Bradley said a facts presented in a story were formidable to trust and that Erdley pennyless a “cardinal […]
12/6/2024 1:33 am
[…] Bradley writes of the Rolling Stone piece: “I’m not sure that I believe it. I’m not convinced that this gang rape actually happened. Something about this story doesn’t feel right… […]
12/6/2024 1:56 am
Richard Bradley, your reasoning is terrible. Because YOU fell for some BS of Stephen Glass’s, now you say we shouldn’t believe anything that confirms what you already thought? Okay, so what about the things that people think are true for perfectly valid reasons? You say that you don’t believe that rape is as bad as people say it is, and I wish I could sit down with you about that one.
Let me tell you something. I am from the south, and I was gang raped when I was 15. With the exception of not being cut by a broken glass table, it was actually much worse than the article describes “Jackie’s” experience. There were more than 7 guys and it went on on all night. And they sodomized me. Without lubrication. And they laughed and laughed. My best friend was in the next room screaming, I remember. See, we were not supposed to be there - we were typical teenage girls and had lied to our parents, because some cool older guys were showing us attention and we wanted to go to this party. You get the picture. So if you read this comment, I guess you’re thinking “that must not have happened because it matches horror stories that people tell.” Well fuck you Bradley. Go to fucking hell with your ‘…if rape culture even exists.’ Because as a survivor, I’ve joined groups and talked to other survivors. I already know that there was nothing unusual about what happened to me.
This message is posted under a fake name. I guess you’ll attribute that to it not being true. In fact, it’s because being known as a victim of rape is more damaging in our society than being known as accused of rape. I can’t afford for people I may someday want to work with googling my name and finding out what happened to me. You think the refusal to divulge names makes the article questionable? No, no. That’s what makes it believable. If a woman were to make up a sensational rape, she’d do it to get attention. When it’s really happened to you, you know deep down that you won’t make it through that kind of attention.
You are a cancer in our society, Bradley. A truly repulsive human being (if this article is any guide at all.)
12/6/2024 2:16 am
All of you people… you make a girl fantasize about going Ms. 45 on the entire male population.
Sure, there’s a chance that this case didn’t happen. But you have no reason to assume so, because shit like that happens all the time, to many females (usually not ones over 19 or so - that sort of men know to stick with the extremely vulnerable ones.) I’m not fantasizing it - it changed the entire course of my life and determined the nature of all of my human relationships. Not for the better, trust me.
What a bunch of sick fucks. Really. Maybe global warming really will bring our lousy species to extinction in a couple hundred years, that’s the most cheerful thought I can come up with.
12/6/2024 2:24 am
A “trope” is a literary device. There are no “apocryphal tropes.”
12/6/2024 2:55 am
The only thing worse than what happened to you, Amber, is how it has poisoned your mind long since. You misapprehend Richard’s piece at the most fundamental level—your vitriol misplaced. For you of all people should not sit idly while Jackie’s (now) discredited story makes of mockery of the true pain you—and those like you—have experienced.
I cannot fathom why you would hurl such ire at Richard Bradley, whose thoughts now seem prescient, rather than the girl whose inaccurate accusations emboldens those refusing to acknowledge the horror of sexual assault. Remember: so long as the Jackies of the world continue to fabricate their accounts (or at least significant elements of those accounts), all your pain is for naught.
12/6/2024 2:57 am
Amber, you sound bummed that a women DIDN’T get violently gang-raped at UVA. You really are a twisted ghoul.
12/6/2024 3:01 am
(1) “Trope” also can mean “a motif,” rendering the sentence perfectly fine.
(2) It’s good to know that Richard’s (acceptable) use of the word “trope” is the lesson you gleaned from this article.
12/6/2024 3:41 am
Amber
I’m truley sorry for your experience, but Bradley is a journalist, not a rape counselor. The point of his blog is that Rolling Stone published a piece of journalism that had far-reaching consequences for everyone involved and that piece ignored many journalistic rules, most importantly fact-checking. He pointed out holes in the story, which have now come to light as legitimate AFTER the story was published. He stated that we let our own biases govern our beliefs (even in the absence of facts). For example, people who’ve been the victim of sexual assault are biased to believe the story regardless of inconsistencies. People who’ve gone through the Greek system at an affluent, genteel southern school and never witnessed a gang rape are biased to believe the Psi Phis that “Jackie’s” claims, (not made in a court of law, but printed on the pages of RS) against their members are absolutly false. Those are our biases, but good journalism should be above that.
I think that what ever happened to her, the real truth, probably wasn’t “sensational” enough for the author’s agenda to take down UVa and it’s preppy halls of privilage and some lies were told as a “means to an end” which discredits real victims of campus rape, gang rape, frat rape-whatever. Even other victims at UVa.
I think you should be more pissed off at the mishandling of this by Rolling Stone than the people, like Bradley, who are questioning the journalistic ethics at work here. Check your biases.
It’s important to bring to light sexual assault on college campuses, but not like this. Chances are “Jackie” was victimized in some way, but now it looks like she is possibly the victim of a journalist trying to make a name for herself.
12/6/2024 4:40 am
Amber,
We doubted not because it was terrible, but because how everyone around her doesn’t treat it as terrible.
I don’t know about your case whether you ever report it to the police or not (but for society’s sake I hoped you did report it and all the rapists are locked up) but it is impossible that not one of Jackie’s friend felt compelled to drag her to the police because she was gang raped by 7 men. She was supposedly bleeding at her back because of the glass shards, and not one of them were sympathetic to bring her to the hospital? It kind of boggles the mind.
Anyway it’s already proven that Jackie did lie about it and there is no party at the date at the fraternity, so Mr Bradley is actually right this time. So instead of being angry at Mr Bradley maybe you should be angry at Jackie because her actions has make people less inclined to believe rape victims in the future.
12/6/2024 6:01 am
“What a bunch of sick fucks. Really. Maybe global warming really will bring our lousy species to extinction in a couple hundred years, that’s the most cheerful thought I can come up with.” If mass annihilation of humanity is the most cheerful thought Amber can come up with, is Amber certain that it’s everybody else who is “sick”?
12/6/2024 6:09 am
@David: I never stated or implied that the one detail I commented on was the only one I noticed or regarded as worthy “lesson.”
Following is dictionary.com’s listing of definitions for “trope,” which is consistent with other references I looked at. I’m certainly open to having my knowledge of the language corrected or expanded, so if want to site a reference that provides a definition of “trope” such that a trope can be “apocryphal,” I’m all ears.
“1. any literary or rhetorical device, as metaphor, metonymy, synecdoche, and irony, that consists in the use of words in other than their literal sense.
“an instance of this.
“2. a phrase, sentence, or verse formerly interpolated in a liturgical text to amplify or embellish.
“3.(in the philosophy of Santayana) the principle of organization according to which matter moves to form an object during the various stages of its existence.”
I think it is clear that neither #2 nor #3 could have been intended.
12/6/2024 6:11 am
[…] But I didn’t want to write that without at least making some phone calls. Anyway, congrats to Richard Bradley and Robert Soave for beating me to the punch. And congratulations to Phi Kappa Psi; usually it […]
12/6/2024 6:25 am
This blog poster’s primary points in calling foul on the Rolling Stone article seemto be:1) Pointing out aspects of Jackie’s narrative that are seemingly inconsistent even though it’s not detailed in full; and 2) the lack of comment by the author of Jackie’s friends and alleged rapists.
The poster’s treatment of these two issues demonstrates that he doesn’t know much about handling sexual assault victims with sensitivity and tact. He’s ignoring the fact that 1) victims of any crime relive their experiences differently and those differences grow over time and that 2) rape victims definitely can harbor complex emotional issues surrounding their assault and how they want to handle it. It’s completely reasonable for Jackie to want to help other women come to terms with their own experiences by sharing her story but be unwilling herself to release names or facilitate contact with friends that hurt her on her path to recovery. He’s right that to create a more compelling argument corroborating Jackie’s specific story, that the reader would need to know more about the process of how the article was researched and what the author went through to get the story - but that wasn’t the point of this piece. I think that what’s interesting is that this blog poster whoever he is (his invocation of authority leaves me skeptical to the validity of his point) is that he’s suggesting that in order for a report on rape culture to be credible, a rape victim has to forfeit the delicate process of healing and be confronted with skeptical cross-examination. In other words, proper treatment of rape victims and good journalism about rape are mutually exclusive, we must forfeit one in order to have the other, and that’s a false dichotomy that I fundamentally reject.
In a later post, this same blogger goes on to say that 38 victims reporting to the sexual assault office at UVA doesn’t sound like enough to constitute a rape culture. The fact that the author believes that there is a numerical threshold of rapes that defines a rape culture demonstrates his fundamental misunderstanding of what rape culture actually is. And I suggest that he educate himself - because through ill-informed efforts like this, no matter how well-meaning he pretends they are, he’s contributing to it.
12/6/2024 8:06 am
I appreciate the reminder to be most critical of things that tend toward ones biases. The following statement might want to be examined the same way:
“alleges that one out of three women who go to UVA has been raped. This is silly.”
It is absolutely not silly, it is most likely, sadly, true. Here is a brief list of some of the research in the field:
http://www.slc.edu/offices-services/security/assault/statistics.html
12/6/2024 8:56 am
[…] leftist fever swamp known as Vox, perhaps reacting to the utter implosion of Rolling Stone’s University of Virginia fraternity gang-rape story and the potential impact […]
12/6/2024 9:21 am
So, let’s step back a bit. Rolling Stone gets egg on its face over this. Poor editorial procedures, etc. Who benefits? (Why ask that? Cui bono is ALWAYS the question to ask when trying to figure out why something public that smells happens. Always “follow the money.”) Well, of late, Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone has done some masterful journalism slamming the bankster culture of Wall Street greed. Goldman Sachs, among other “too big to fail” institutions, has particularly taken it on the chin, and rightfully so, in a number of Matt’s well researched articles. Now, suddenly, with much notoriety, RS looks like it has poor journalistic practices. Well, it would seem they certainly did on this article in question. But the nature of news in our world today is such that this is likely to smear RS writ large.
Now, interestingly enough, UVa School of Commerce (for undergrads) and the Darden School (for graduate studies) are some of the top B-schools in the USA, They provide lots of bright young things for Wall Street firms to employ. As the dust on all this settles, UVa has been besmirched a bit (but as they are ‘getting their act together’, not TOO much), but RS will have fallen from their investigative journalism pedestal. Matt Taibbi’s work will suddenly be looked at much more suspiciously - NO MATTER HOW GOOD OR HOW WELL RESEARCHED Matt’s work is.
Hmmnnn.
Kind of makes you wonder. Did Goldman Sachs just win itself another fight, (against RS, in this case) while keeping it’s hands totally clean? They seem to have been the ultimate benefactors in all this. Just sayin’…
12/6/2024 9:28 am
dd- No. While nobody knows what happened, at the moment it appears that there is no proof whatsoever that anything at all ever happened. Zero. Zip. Nada. There’s only a totally unsubstantiated account riddled with holes, a writer with a personal agenda, and an editor who failed miserably. The story will now shift to Jackie and Rolling Stone, and how shoddy journalism and over the top embellishments can seriously hurt people, including Jackie, and causes. Heads will roll at Rolling Stone, as they should. This is far, far different than a “competing narrative.”
12/6/2024 9:29 am
[…] contingency be many vicious about stories that play into existent biases,” writes Richard Bradley (who, as an editor, was hoodwinked by Stephen Glass). “And this story nourishes a lot of them: […]
12/6/2024 9:42 am
[…] leftist fever swamp known as Vox, perhaps reacting to the utter implosion of Rolling Stone’s University of Virginia fraternity gang-rape story and the potential impact […]
12/6/2024 9:47 am
Sometimes One Wonders-That is an extremely interesting perspective, and I certainly wouldn’t dismiss Goldman’s wish to sink Rolling Stone. With the writer actively pursuing movie deals, GS certainly would be able to open quite a few doors, though her credibility would now be diminished/shot. Further, the editor(s) would need to be on board as well. Still, I certainly wouldn’t put it past the reach of the Giant Squid.
12/6/2024 10:22 am
[…] first person to challenge the RS story was Richard Bradley, a former editor at George magazine, who dealt with Stephen Glass, the infamous […]
12/6/2024 12:34 pm
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12/6/2024 12:57 pm
[…] the past week, several critics have questioned the story’s authenticity and faulted author Sabrina Rubin Erdely for failing to seek a […]
12/6/2024 1:01 pm
Something happened to me in college that I have never publicly written about, which is why I still maintain my anonymity. It was my senior year. I was so close to graduating. But I couldn’t. I wasn’t able to leave my room for months, except to go to class in fear. I was afraid to walk on campus. I didn’t attend any school activities because I was afraid of what people would say to me, what they would say about me. It was a shame I wouldn’t want my worst enemies to ever feel. It was horrific. Multiple times I contemplated taking my own life, and at some points, attempted and failed. Every night I wanted to fall asleep and never wake up. That is the truth. In my final two months at school, I left my room to go to the bathroom and to go to class. That was it. Since leaving school, I have changed from being a rather outgoing, charismatic individual, to a quiet, insecure and lost model of depression. I’ve lost my ability to have emotion, which has put an incredible damper on my relationships and social life. I often find myself coming home from work wanting only to drink myself to sleep. I usually avoid social situations in the fear that my story will be brought up, which sends me into a state of fear as I irrationally try to escape the need to explain myself. Two years have passed since this has happened. And I can’t go a day without thinking about it.
I was wrongfully accused, and under the statute provided by Title IX to the University, found “responsible” for rape. Because according to the University, all that is needed is a preponderance of evidence to find the accused responsible. Which means if someone comes to the administration with an accusation, they almost certainly must agree with the accusation and assume guilt of the accused. My false accusation has had a horrific effect on my life, my family’s, and all those close to me. Anyone who has stood by my side, or supported me, has been called a misogynist, a pig, “pro-rape”. You name it. Nobody thinks rape is ok. Rape is a truly horrific crime that does occur on college campuses. This is a fact. But the extent to which we imagine, and perpetuate our narrative of rape culture, is simply incorrect. The majority of comments here talk about how “well the UVA story may be false, but it still gets conversation going about an important subject.” What subject is that? False rape allegations, and the exponential effects they have on the accused? How we as a society, in allegations such as rape, have decided to assume guilt no matter what? The pendulum used to be horrific in one side, where anyone coming forward with a rape allegation would be dismissed, and called names. But today, any allegation is immediately believed and unquestioned, no matter how incredible the story might be.
In my situation, there were no witnesses. There was no evidence. The people called to trial were those suggested by the accuser, who simply corroborated the story which she had told them. There was the accuser’s word against mine. I was told I could not have a lawyer. I was told by my girlfriend at the time, in the administrator’s office, with the administrator pushing for this, that I was accused of rape. This was how I learned I was being investigated by the University for the claim - from my girlfriend who was directed to tell me on behalf of the University (a breach in all things FERPA). Details of my case were shared to my fraternity by administration. I was told I was not allowed to contact or face my accuser, a basic right within due-process. I had appointed my own “advisor”, one who had no history of dealing with such policy. The accuser was appointed an advisor who had a history of dealing with such situations, and whose husband was on the review board deciding the outcome of the trial. After the trial had concluded, and they decided I was responsible, I had written a final appeal to the dean stating I would never take responsibility as the claims are false, yet given their immediate decision, I understood they may not be able to reverse a punishment. Because of this, I offered alternate sanctions allowing me to finish my 1.5 credits to graduate off campus, so as to be sensitive to any and all who disagreed with me. They responded saying that this was my admission to responsibility, even after I had very clearly stated I would never take responsibility or apologize for something I simply did not do. Yet I was ignored and told to leave campus in the next 24 hours. After I had left school, I was able to complete my degree through another University, and receive my diploma from the one that wrongfully suspended me. After I left, a relative who still attended the University was harassed and threatened by administration, in an attempt to ease my accuser’s mind. A trial and accusation should be taken seriously in the University system. This means a fair trial and understanding for both parties, in an effort to provide safety and security for the student. This was surely not considered in my case. The University ignored any sense of due-process and regardless of my testimony, had made their decision the moment I was accused.
Since my accusation and subsequent suspension, I have lost all pride in my University, yet they continue to harass me and ask for my donations. I have lost faith in the collegiate system. I have lost every relationship and friendship I had over my four years. I am still afraid to go to social events, because my paranoia sets in and I get anxious I will see a classmate who will accuse me further. Perhaps the worst part of it all is that I do not have the opportunity to explain my story, because of the aforementioned assumed guilt.
Rape and sexual assault is a very real problem on college campuses. False accusations of rape are also a very real problem. “Jackie’s story” is a classic example of media bringing attention to an issue they want heard, based purely on preconceived notions while disregarding the necessity for fact. Something may have actually happened to “Jackie”. And for that I am sorry. But we need to take a step back and think about what we say and what we assume about situations we may know nothing about. You may have noticed I never once referred to my accuser as a victim, or a survivor. She is only that, an accuser. To call her a victim or survivor suggests that a crime did in fact occur, and someone is responsible for it. That mentality in itself suggests guilt for the accused, which in my case and others was simply not true. We must look at such situations objectively, with understanding to develop an educated response. To blindly take an accusation as truth in fact sets this entire cause of breaking through the rape culture many steps back unfortunately. This case will be an example for those who do not believe to say, “remember when the UVA thing happened? How can we believe her?” Truth and honesty are what we need in situations like this. True victims - please report these crimes to police. Send these criminals to jail and have them suffer. That is easier said than done I’m sure, but you should not be afraid to tell the truth. Yet because years after alleged incidents lies are fabricated to continue a narrative, this battle for assault advocacy has been reversed. We cannot continue to look at the accused as “guilty until proven innocent, and then if found innocent, the accusation was for a good cause of getting the important conversation about sexual assault started.” For those who have been assaulted or raped, I am in no way trying to diminish the hardship and pain you experience. Nobody should ever have to experience that.
Let this RS article be a grave example of how damning lies and false reports can be, not only to those falsely accused, but also to real victims. Be true. Be honest. That is all that will cure this “rape culture”, but only if it is done on both sides of the coin.
12/6/2024 1:20 pm
[…] the past week, several critics have questioned the story’s authenticity and faulted author Sabrina Rubin Erdely for failing to seek a […]
12/6/2024 1:33 pm
[…] the past week, several critics have questioned the story’s authenticity and faulted author Sabrina Rubin Erdely for failing to seek a response […]
12/6/2024 1:34 pm
[…] the past week, several critics have questioned the story’s authenticity and faulted author Sabrina Rubin Erdely for failing to seek a response […]
12/6/2024 2:03 pm
[…] The Washington Post did its own reporting that details some of the apparent inconsistencies, but what triggered the inquiry was an outside party. Former George editor Richard Bradley, who once worked with the disgraced Stephen Glass, wondered on his personal blog if the story was true. […]
12/6/2024 4:19 pm
This is Obama’s fault, right?
12/6/2024 4:32 pm
Amber, I too was a sexual assault victim, and I am sorry for what happened to you. But your anger is misplaced. Every Jackie that lies or exaggerates her story makes it more difficult for those of us who have survived rape to be believed. If you want to be angry with someone, be angry with the people who have now made it more difficult for us to share our experiences without skepticism.
12/6/2024 5:31 pm
[…] go over the story’s details, or its inherent problems, as those have been beaten to death by many other sources. But through all the chatter, there are a few points that should be - but some […]
12/6/2024 7:52 pm
Excellent work, Mr. Bradley.
Howard Kurtz on CNN tonight credited you as being the first to get the ball rolling in exposing this fraudulent story.
12/6/2024 9:09 pm
[…] the past week, several critics have questioned the story’s authenticity and faulted author Sabrina Rubin Erdely for failing to seek a […]
12/6/2024 9:52 pm
I was always suspicious of Jackie’s story. Now it seems it was always obvious that at least large chunks of it are not true. The problem can be summed up in one sentence. The narrative of the injustice is TOO PERFECT. She was victimized every way imaginable. Real life is hardly ever so perfect or so imperfect.
12/6/2024 11:34 pm
[…] as to say Jackie was a liar, rather than own up to the numerous holes in its reporting? How could Richard Bradley, the editor-in-chief of Worth magazine, be so dismissive as to reduce the account to […]
12/7/2024 12:15 am
[…] as to say Jackie was a liar, rather than own up to the numerous holes in its reporting? How could Richard Bradley, the editor-in-chief of Worth magazine, be so dismissive as to reduce the account to […]
12/7/2024 4:17 am
[…] Monday, I briefly noted a post by Richard Bradley, pointing to some potential issues with the Rolling Stone story. Since I wrote that post, other […]
12/7/2024 4:21 am
[…] 24 November, author and repository editor Richard Bradley said a facts presented in a story were formidable to trust and that Erdley pennyless a “cardinal […]
12/7/2024 7:22 am
Jay Raskin
Thank you, Debbie Allen, you are one of probably a hundred women who worked with Bill Cosby for a number of years. It is amazing that not one of these women who actually worked with Bill Cosby on a long term basis has said anything against him.
On the other hand, nearly all the women making accusations have a history of mental illness, drug addiction and alcoholism. They claim that they met Mr. Cosby once or a few times and claim that he harassed or drugged and raped them, but amazingly none of them went to the police.
In doing dozens of movies, hundreds of television shows and a thousand live theater performances, Dr. Cosby probably met and talked with 4 or 5 new women a week for over 40 years. That adds up to about 8 ,000 - 10,000 women that Dr. Cosby met and talked with. Given that Cosby lives in a world where pretending and making things up (writing and acting) and taking drugs and alcohol are part of almost everybody’s lifestyle, it would not be surprising to find 1%, 80-100, would dislike him enough to say or make up bad things about him. It is not surprising that 20 of them would accuse him of sexual harassment and 5 would accuse him of rape, either for reasons of personal self-esteem, mental illness, desire for money, or in the mistaken belief that they were helping other victimized women, or some, or all of the above reasons.
We should also remember that memory failure is normal in all human beings.
We remember very few things precisely, most things we forget, and some we misremember. Anybody who who talks over experiences of 20 and 30 years ago with friends have probably experienced the shock that people with common experiences remember their experiences quite differently.
Yesterday at 10:54am
12/7/2024 9:43 am
[…] could Richard Bradley, the editor-in-chief of Worth magazine, be so dismissive as to reduce the account to “apocryphal […]
12/7/2024 12:45 pm
The strange detail that struck me the most, was that she passes out during the rape, long enough for a room full of people to exit. Why did she pass out? She made sure to tell us that she was sober during the crime. Was it so late in the evening that she needed to get a bit of shut-eye? Was she in too much pain? If that were the case, her injuries would’ve been too severe to avoid medical attention. Also, I can’t imagine losing consciousness during the most horrific, adrenaline fueled moment of my life, unless someone had punched me out. It appears to be a convenient way to end the details of the crime and move on to the aftermath.
12/7/2024 2:12 pm
I first read the Rolling Stone article after everyone was already talking about it. I recall being skeptical of the broken glass, and the part about the friends not wanting to take her to the hospital, (though on rereading it was clear that the friends business was just “Jackie’s” memory).
But I did not stop to wonder if maybe the whole story was untrue. I was too carried away by the shocking narrative, and too trusting that the story wouldn’t have been published by a respected magazine without fact-checking.
I really feel foolish now. I’ve certainly learned my lesson.
12/7/2024 2:17 pm
[…] at a fraternity house at the University of Virginia. The story gained national attention, including criticism about the whether it had been properly […]
12/7/2024 2:25 pm
[…] Richard Bradley, former editor of George Magazine in an early fact-checking of the Rolling Stone piece:The article alleges a truly horrifying gang rape at a UVA fraternity, […]
12/7/2024 7:49 pm
[…] seeking to upend the patriarchy,” was just right. As Worth magazine editor Richard Bradley noted last week, the whole thing seems like an adventure in confirmation […]
12/7/2024 11:34 pm
“Why did she pass out?”
It’s like a Fade to Black in a screenplay.
12/8/2024 7:01 am
[…] was ahead of the curve when it came to questioning Rolling Stone’s story about a gang rape at the […]
12/8/2024 11:54 am
[…] of the first arguments along these lines appeared on the personal blog of the author and magazine editor Richard Bradley, who concludes that he’s “not convinced that […]
12/8/2024 12:59 pm
[…] of these initial skeptics was Richard Bradley, a former editor at George magazine. In a blogpost, Bradley wrote that he had worked with the famous fabulist Stephen Glass (who fabricated stories for the New […]
12/8/2024 2:56 pm
[…] But even as people and institutions in Virginia and elsewhere were gearing up to respond to the shocking incident — and perhaps even more shocking post hoc indifference — that Erdely described, serious questions were being raised as to the accuracy of her account. The first person to express serious doubts may have been Richard Bradley, an author of three nonfiction books and the editor-in-chief of Worth magazine, writing in a Nov. 24 blog post titled “Is the Rolling Stone Story True?” […]
12/8/2024 5:20 pm
[…] at a University of Virginia fraternity. On his blog, Bradley, editor-in-chief of Worth magazine, suggested some possible consequential omissions in Sabrina Rubin Erdely’s reporting. Why, for instance, was there no response—or even a “no […]
12/10/2024 8:01 am
[…] have raised legitimate questions about the veracity of a front page Rolling Stone story titled A Rape on […]
12/10/2024 8:07 am
Hi! I am From Brazil.. followed the whole story. Didnt believe at first but couldnt find many people to talk about it.
Just wanted to say “Well done” to have the courage to ASK QUESTIONS when people who were doing it publicly were being almost criminalized and labeled as TRUTHERS, RAPE APOLOGISTS and other stuff..
Keep up with the good work! You can say you have one more reader and follower!
12/10/2024 9:03 am
[…] Bradley was amongst the first to raise issues with the story, publishing this post only five days after the RS feature was […]
12/10/2024 10:33 am
[…] the next few weeks, several people raised questions about the story, pointing out that it had some issues. When they found out that the reporter had […]
12/10/2024 3:09 pm
“It’s like a Fade to Black in a screenplay”
Good analogy!
Question: Does Jackie deserve to retain the anonymous status of a victim, if she fabricated the story? Or should liars be exposed?
12/11/2023 1:07 am
[…] outlets, including Slate, The Washington Post, The New Republic, Reason and Worth editor-at-large Richard Bradley‘s blog. Erdely hasn’t tweeted since Nov. […]
12/11/2023 1:10 am
[…] outlets, including Slate, The Washington Post, The New Republic, Reason and Worth editor-at-large Richard Bradley‘s blog. Erdely hasn’t tweeted since Nov. […]
12/11/2023 1:11 am
[…] outlets, including Slate, The Washington Post, The New Republic, Reason and Worth editor-at-large Richard Bradley‘s blog. Erdely hasn’t tweeted since Nov. […]
12/11/2023 1:25 am
[…] outlets, including Slate, The Washington Post, The New Republic, Reason and Worth editor-at-large Richard Bradley‘s blog. Erdely hasn’t tweeted since Nov. […]
12/11/2023 4:36 am
[…] outlets, including Slate, The Washington Post, The New Republic, Reason and Worth editor-at-large Richard Bradley‘s blog. Erdely hasn’t tweeted since Nov. […]
12/11/2023 3:16 pm
Anybody here remember Daisy Lundy at UVA? Falsely reported a racially motivated attack the night before her election as Univ President….Uva (along w/ Cville cops and the FBI) swept that one under the rug. In fact, I believe she still holds some type of Diversity position at the school.
Uva is pathetic.
12/12/2023 5:48 am
Cliff Arroyo hit the nail on the head in the comments all the way back on 11/30:
“There’s something dreamlike about a lot of the details (falling through a glass table without major injuries, no one reacting to her wandering around bloodied, ‘noticing’ a side door she hadn’t seen before).”
“My assumption is that she had some kind of sexual encounter with more than one guy that was maybe semi-consentual [sic] (consent is often a question of degree rather than a star white/black distinction). Later she had dreams and/or nightmares about it and now can’t distinguish the dreams from the reality.”
If you read some of the articles from journalists who actually did their jobs and talked to the friends Jackie told about the incident, Cliff’s comment appears to be precisely what they believe to have happened.
12/12/2023 6:00 am
[…] into existing biases. And this story nourishes a lot of them,” journalist Richard Bradley wrote in a blog post that was one of the first expressions of public skepticism. But while there’s no excuse on […]
12/13/2014 1:30 pm
[…] outlets, including Slate, The Washington Post, The New Republic, Reason and Worth editor-at-large Richard Bradley‘s blog. Erdely hasn’t tweeted since Nov. […]
12/15/2014 11:57 am
[…] immediate aftermath of Rolling Stone’s publication of Erdely’s article, blogger Richard Bradley wrote that “to believe it beyond a doubt, without a question mark—as virtually all the people […]
12/16/2014 7:41 am
[…] EmergeRichard Bradley, a former George magazine editor who was duped by Stephen Glass, writes an essay questioning the story. He says the Glass incident taught him that you should be “critical, in […]
12/17/2014 1:02 pm
[…] magazine George who was famously duped by writer and serial fabricator Stephen Glass, was the first to raise concerns with the story on Nov. 24 — just five days after the article was published — writing […]
12/19/2014 12:11 pm
This is a horrible article. Your claims are not supported and you conveniently leave out facts to help support your own biased and uneducated point of view. Especially your depiction of the Tawana Brawley trail.
12/20/2014 4:06 pm
I believe the Tawana Brawley trail is lovely this time of year - though pack snow shoes.
12/23/2014 4:21 am
And lots of plastic trash bags.
12/26/2014 12:11 am
Yes…watch out for doggie droppings.
1/22/2015 4:06 pm
[…] On Nov. 25, Groves received an e-mail with a link to Richard Bradley’s Nov. 24 post expressing skepticism about the Rolling Stone piece. […]
3/27/2015 10:52 am
So fascinating going back to this post from one of the first legitimate journalists who had the gonads to put in writing what every reasonable person was thinking (or commenting) before this Rolling Stone mockery of an “article” was dismantled and exposed for the flaming pile of feces that is it.
After all that’s happened, and looking back on this post, the ONLY thing that Mr. Bradley got wrong was the very end:
“If it didn’t happen, this story will be impossible to disprove—some people seem to want to believe it—and U.Va’s reputation will likely not recover for decades. Rolling Stone—which published several articles by Stephen Glass, by the way, and always insisted that it was the one publication in which Glass did not tell lies—will stand by its story. And we will never know the truth.”
Who would have thought that indeed the truth would turn out to be so bizarre that it is ALMOST harder to believe than the fiction?
4/3/2024 8:39 am
[…] story quickly drew skeptics. Journalist and author Richard Bradley published a blog post on November 24, 2023 , saying he didn’t buy Jackie’s claims. “I’m not […]
4/5/2024 2:36 pm
Today, as the long process has run through its cycle and unbelievably RS is actually retracting the story, it’s important to remember that when this article was written this guy was virtually alone in standing up and saying, wait a minute, common sense must trump what we wish to believe or what is convenient to believe, that for journalistic ethics to be a real, living and standard of excellence, fairness and truth to which all journalists and their editors should aspire, we must not be immediately credulous of stories just because they concern rape (which, by the way, has become the pet crime of feminists and a cudgel by which to attack various institutions and boogiemen they detest anyway.)
This is true “speaking truth to power”- this is having the courage to stand in the face of public censure for questioning what we are told by countless feminists must never be questioned, alone among all crimes on the books. Atticus Finch would not be a lone, brave hero for defending a black man against a white accuser in today’s world: he would, however, be a brave and universally despised figure for daring to question a rape “victim’s” version of events in her alleged attack, which is not to be allowed in today’s PC climate.
Here we have, ladies and gentlemen, a true voice in the wilderness, defending the classically liberal standards and ethics of a free, fair and honest press, and at the possible cost of being slandered, reviled and attacked by the entire leftist media structure and its followers.
Hat’s off to Richard Bradley, a genuinely brave and principled journalist in an age where service to the narrative and winning the news cycle for your “team” is more important to the press than actual facts, fairness and truth.
Hopefully this will encourage others to question conformity to the leftist strictures that govern our society today (as seen in the latest cultural battle-ground in Indiana, where Religious Freedom is now compared to Jim Crow).
I remain skeptical to that eventuality, however,
4/5/2024 2:41 pm
[…] actually retracting the story, it’s important to remember that when this article was written Richard Bradley was virtually alone in standing up and saying, wait a minute, common sense must trump what we wish to believe or what […]
4/7/2024 1:00 am
[…] November 2014: Is the Rolling Stone story true? » Shots in the Dark […]
4/7/2024 10:05 am
[…] had completed their review of Sabrina Rubin Erdely’s article “A Rape on Campus,” her long-discredited report on a purported gang rape that happened at the Phi Kappa Psi frat house at the University of […]
4/8/2024 12:08 pm
[…] 20, 2014, four days before Bradley posted his problems with the story on November 24, 2014. Shots in the Dark » Blog Archive Is the Rolling Stone Story True? | Shots in the Dark Posted on November 24th, 2014 in Uncategorized | 464 Comments » By the way, I'm not claiming I was […]
4/11/2024 4:37 pm
[…] All fraternities were suspended, faculty weighed in with English Professor Allen Booth claiming “the whole [fraternity] culture is sick”, the Phi Kappa Psi fraternity house was vandalized, and death threats were made against associate dean Nicole Eramo. The administration was accused of indifference to the situation, and students accused in the case were forced into hiding in hotels. Then questions regarding the article emerged. Richard Bradley of Worth Magazine wrote on his blog: […]
4/11/2024 5:04 pm
[…] […]
4/14/2015 2:40 am
[…] On November 24th, veteran editor Richard Bradley asked on his personal blog Shots in the Dark “Is the Rolling Stone Story True?” […]
4/14/2015 6:46 pm
[…] as to say Jackie was a liar, rather than own up to the numerous holes in its reporting? How could Richard Bradley, the editor-in-chief of Worth magazine, be so dismissive as to reduce the account to […]
4/28/2015 2:32 am
[…] story, and immediately set off red flags among the industry. Writer and blogger Richard Bradley noted his issues with the article six months ago, addressing his experience with fake journalism and the power of pre-existing biases. But more on […]
5/12/2023 6:52 pm
[…] as to say Jackie was a liar, rather than own up to the numerous holes in its reporting? How could Richard Bradley, the editor-in-chief of Worth magazine, be so dismissive as to reduce the account to […]
6/17/2015 7:33 am
[…] […]
8/12/2023 8:16 pm
[…] Bradley’s advice: “One must be most critical about stories that play into existing biases. And this story nourishes a lot of them: biases against fraternities, against men, against the South; biases about the naiveté of young women…And, of course, this is a very charged time when it comes to the issue of sexual assault on campuses. Emotion has outswept reason.” […]
8/18/2015 1:50 am
[…] to her. But they want to protect even the people who are doing these horrible things.” In a much-cited piece, Richard Bradley, a former editor at George magazine, writes of his skepticism of Erdely’s piece […]
11/9/2024 11:21 pm
Mr. Bradley,
I am unsure as to whether you still update this blog, and I could not find any contact info to reach you directly so I will leave this note here in the hopes that you come across it. This is where the fact finding began, so it seems fitting. Thank you for the critical and unabashed questions you raised at the onset of this tragedy that caused so much undue pain and suffering for so many people on both sides of the issue, at the onset and in the long aftermath. Men like you were responsible for revolutions that upended sacred notions of conformity and correctness that are abhorrent by today’s standards. They dared to question where authority forbade it. I hold my head up as a witness to the fact that even in great darkness, light can penetrate.
Please continue your good work; remember what you did here, and why you did it.
11/23/2015 2:33 am
[…] Richard Bradley, editor-in-chief of Worth magazine raises questions on the article’s veracity on his personal blog. […]
2/13/2016 7:17 pm
[…] as to say Jackie was a liar, rather than own up to the numerous holes in its reporting? How could Richard Bradley, the editor-in-chief of Worth magazine, be so dismissive as to reduce the account to […]