Are Sox Fans Getting Worried?
Posted on April 13th, 2014 in Uncategorized | 12 Comments »
Judging from the comments below, I’d say so. You guys are touchy!
Let me give Chris, who asks why I continue to harp on David Ortiz’s steroid use, a serious answer.
Chris says, “Your steroid fixation with Ortiz is getting old. Why don’t you focus on guys who really used them—Afraud, Clemens, Pettite [sic]…”
Afraud? I’d go with Aroid, but that’s just me.
In any case, the answer is this.
Pettite says he used steroids once to come back from an injury, and nobody really seems to argue that; Clemens is a former Red Sox, so you know where that trouble started (and besides, he’s out of baseball); and A-Rod, well, I still think there’s more to that story. How A-Rod became the most hated man in baseball, I’m still not sure I understand.
But what bothers me, Chris, is the double standard here. Sox fans go ballistic about A-Rod, what a terrible guy he is and all that. Hell, if you polled Sox fans, I’ll bet at least 50 percent would approve of Ryan Dempster deliberately throwing at Rodriguez multiple times. Just because, you know, he used steroids.
But out of all the players we’ve mentioned here, the only one who’s actually failed a drug test is David Ortiz. And Ortiz’s ridiculous numbers, both in the mid 2000s, the height of the steroid era, and more recently certainly suggest that he was/is a ‘roid user. From 2004-2006 Ortiz drove in 424 RBIs and hit 142 home runs, or about 47 a season. There’s no way those are not artificially inflated numbers.
And, Chris, the three other players you mention are out of baseball, at least for now. Ortiz is still playing. And, possibly, still using. Let’s be honest, last year was weird.
Yet Sox fans give Ortiz a pass. They don’t want to know. And the main reason they don’t want to admit it is because they’d have to admit that their World Series victories in 2004 and, very likely, 2007 are completely tainted.
Hey, I don’t blame you. That’s a tough thing to come to terms with, given how important those championships were to the Sox. And Ortiz is an immensely likable guy who’d probably be a very good hitter even without steroids. Just not the monster hitter that he was.
Alex Rodriguez, however, is not a likable guy. By almost all accounts, he’s an insufferable jerk. (I say “almost” because I know someone who knows him and swears A-Rod is just misunderstood.)
So Ortiz gets a pass, while A-Rod gets ostracized and thrown at—when they both did the same thing.
That’s not right. That’s high school mentality. We let the cool guy off the hook and pick on the unpopular one. Because we can’t admit Ortiz’s transgressions, we’re just going to pile on A-Rod that much more. To prove to ourselves that, no, really, we take this steroid stuff seriously. There’s no place for it in baseball!
Except when it was the foundation of the Red Sox’s first World Series victory in a century or so.
So as long as Sox fans are in denial about what really happened in 2004 and afterward—or as long as they keep vilifying A-Rod while canonizing Ortiz—I’ll keep harping on David Ortiz’s steroid use.
12 Responses
4/14/2014 5:14 am
Make that six Red Sox posts in a row. Looks like they’re in your head.
4/14/2014 5:19 am
Mike-I’m not sure if you noticed this, but the Red Sox were just in New York for a four game series, of which they lost three…. Now parked in last place, they are indeed happily in my head.
4/14/2014 6:00 am
And you seem happier about the Red Sox losing them the Yankees winning. We used to be like that too. (And most of the posts were from before this series.)
A couple fact checks on this piece:
1) Alex Rodriguez failed the same test Ortiz did. Its not accurate to say that Otis is the only one mentioned who ever failed a test.
2) Pettitte lied about his HGH use. He used it at least twice and many people find that claim laughable. The only reason lots of folks seem to let him off the hook is because he’s a nice guy. Sounds familiar to me.
4/14/2014 6:01 am
(That should have said “it’s…”)
4/14/2014 10:29 am
Where to even start?
First, I love the fact you correct my spelling of “Pettite [sic]” and then go ahead in the next paragraph and spell it the same way. Clearly, you are a bit selective with your focus.
Second, what Mike said. And, we don’t even know what Ortiz was alleged to have done. He failed a test but we don’t know what it was for. Pettitte, on the other hand took HGH, and admitted that. But you want to believe he only took it once and “nobody really seems to argue that”? In what universe is that true? That’s a joke.
Clemens was a Red Sox so it must have started there? Really? Clemens’ last four seasons as a member of the Red Sox:
1993 11-14 with 4.46 ERA
1994 9-7 with a 2.85 ERA
1995 10-5 with a 4.18 ERA
1996 10-13 with a 3.63 ERA
He goes to Toronto and goes nuts - hmmm, wonder when he may have started doping? 1996? I think not. 1997 in Toronto?
1997 21-7 with a 2.05 ERA wins Cy Young Award
1998 20-6 with a 2.65 ERA wins Cy Young Award
Then, the Yankees, oblivious to these drastic changes, sign him. It is laughable to suggest he started doping with the Sox. Laughable. But, you go ahead and convince yourself of that.
Next, some alleged double standard. Come on. You think ARoid or AFraud is similar to Ortiz. I am so happy we didn’t get him and the Yankees snatched him away. I don’t hate him because of the steroids. Quite honestly, I don’t care about the steroids. I dislike the guy because he self-centered, selfish and a big baby. He’s not about team and I’m surprised a Yankee fan is so upset that Sox fans hate AFraud. Here is a specific reason I hate the guy. He slapped the ball away from Bronson Arroyo in pretended, “what me?” That is an illegal play and he knows it. It’s crap like that that makes people hate him. He’s a cheater (and I’m not talking steroids) and selfish. He can’t be compared to Ortiz.
I don’t condone Dempster throwing at AFraud. But, you got wonder what others think of that guy when he is the only one thrown at by other members of the MLB franternity.
I gave you the stats in an earlier response on others who had fantastic years like Oritz last year. Your response is - nothing. You just say, it’s out of the ordinary. It happens. Honestly, if he keeps it up to 40 he may have a decent hall of fame argument. It’s about doing it when you are old. He’s doing that.
Baseball players tend to have their best years 27-30. That is exactly when Ortiz peaked. Steroids or the fact he’s a great ball player who peaked. You say steroids. Why? Because that is your narrative. This all started because I just got sick of you mumbling steroids everytime you mentioned Ortiz. That’s lame. He’s a great ball player. So is AFraud, but AFraud is also an unpleasant character. As Ortiz has aged, his production has decreased - as it will when you get older. But, really, what you don’t like is that he is consistent. He’s hit 23, 28, 32, 29, 23 and 30 HRs each of the last six years. The guy is incredibly consistent when healthy.
Your comment that those numbers are artificially inflated is just you wanting to undermine Ortiz. Get off the steroid kick. Until you have something more then one bad test, you need to show me how a 27-30 year old power hitter could never do what Ortiz did. You can’t.
Player X hit 144 HRs in his age 28-30 seasons. 2 more then Ortiz hit in his age 28-30 season. You saying Ken Griffey Jr did steroids?
Perhaps Yankees fans are the ones with colored glasses from the 2004 season. You justify your epic collapse by saying Ortiz used. Keith Foulke used? Curt Schilling used? Johnny Damon used? Kevin Millar used? Varitek used? Pedro used? Embree used? Timlin used?
Come on. Both teams may have had users. Need I remind you of these names - Clemens, AFraud, Pettitte, Sheffield (?). But it was great baseball and you just can’t accept you guys lost a chance at the World Series by being the first team to lose four straight. Those were great games in Fenway. And, then when the series turned back to the Bronx, Schilling did his thing and it was over.
You put one test on Ortiz and label him a steroid user. That’s unfair. It’s not high school - nice straw man by the way. Steroids is not the foundation of the Red Sox titles. It’s your obsession. You started this by constantly needling that Ortiz is tainted by steroids. Seems to me your the one obsessed with explaining away the Yankees lack of World Series titles recently.
Red Sox fans are not in denial. It is you. You need to think about why you are so focused on Ortiz and sluff off the dirty stuff that undermines the Yankees as well.
Enjoy the games of 2014 and what Girardi managed to do with chewing gum and twine in 2013. The games this weekend were good ones - yes, frustrating for Sox fans, but good games. We didn’t get hits when we needed them. The Yankees patched together a win last night. That was a good game. But, I feel like your response would have been - “Those two loud outs by Ortiz were the product of steroids, they should have been pop ups.”
It’s this obsession that bothers me.
4/14/2014 11:39 am
One final thing. As a journalist, I will assume you embrace facts. Well, here are the facts:
7 Yankees (both major league and minor league players) have been suspended since 2005 under MLB’s drug policy:
Matt Lawton (2005 10 games)
Francisco Cervelli (2013 50 games)
Alex Rodriguez (2013 162 games)
Daniel McCutchen (2006 50 games)
Sergio Mitre (2009 50 games)(on Marlins when failed test)
Fernando Martinez (2013 50 games)
Ryan Baker (2013 50 games)
0 Red Sox have been suspended in that time frame. You may argue Manny, but he was on the Dodgers and Rays when he failed his tests.
One could look at these facts and argue that the Yankees might have a systemic problem with steroids. Perhaps management turns a blind eye? Just sayin’.
4/14/2014 1:09 pm
Chris-
Let’s take this down a notch, shall we?
I have no problem with the fact that the Yankees lost to the Red Sox in 2004. Hey, it happened, what can you do. I just want Sox fans to be realistic about *how* it happened.
First of all, Manny was also on that 2003 list of players who tested positive for PEDs, so…add the Red Sox to the list.
Second, your list is just wrong. Daniel McCutchen (Daniel McCutchen?) was a minor league Yankee pitcher for two years before he got traded to the Orioles, where he failed a drug test and was suspended.
Matt Lawton was traded to the Yankees in late August 2005 and batted a buck twenty five in 21 games. It was announced in November that he’d failed a drug test, although when he took that test is not clear. (He played on four teams that season.) You’re going to hold that against the Yankees?
Ryan Baker? That one took some looking up. Ryan Baker is a minor leaguer who had 2 (yes, 2) at-bats in 2012 and none in 2013.
Seriously, Chris, you must know that you’re stretching here.
Fernando Martinez was traded from the Astros to the Yankees in late June of last year—remember, the Yankees had so many injuries last year they set a record for the most players on the team in a season—and then was suspended August 5th by MLB.
Sergio Mitre tested positive before he’d ever played a (minor league) game with the Yankees.
I mean…that’s the best you got?
By contrast, the heart of the Red Sox batting order in 2004 and 2007 were Ortiz and Ramirez, two positive testers.
And let’s not forget, the Red Sox are the organization that hired a doctor to instruct its players on how to use steroids properly.
http://deadspin.com/5248932/lou-merloni-will-blow-this-steroid-business-wide-open
(I’ll grant that that one’s a little murky.)
And yes, in answer to your question, I find it perfectly plausible that Jason Varitek and other members of that 2004 team besides Manny and Ortiz took steroids. And I’m not the only one:
http://blog.masslive.com/redsoxmonster/2007/12/an_early_list_of_names_with_ti.html
Look at Varitek’s numbers through 2003-2005, the same years of Ortiz’s peak production: He never comes close to them in his career, either before or after. Coincidence? I don’t think so.
But hey, don’t get mad at me about this-yell at Curt Schilling. He’s the guy who said that in 2008 members of the Red Sox organization *encouraged* him to take steroids.
http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2013-02-07/mlb-steroids-curt-schilling-red-sox-peds-hgh-biogenesis-alex-rodriguez
I also find it perfectly possible, by the way, that Ken Griffey Jr. took steroids. Why not? And again, I’m not the only one:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/123218-did-ken-griffey-jr-take-steroids
The thing is, no one can get sanctimonious about all this. Did Pettite use more than the once? Has A-Rod used more than David Ortiz? It’s a shame that we even have to ask this kind of question.
It’s just that the hypocrisy in Boston is tough to swallow. Sox fans are all up in A-Rod’s grill, encouraging their pitchers to throw at his head. You stay classy, Sox fans.
But they can’t deal with the fact that the great success of their recent past is built on steroids.
You can’t have it both ways.
But we can agree on some things, Chris-that was a good series this weekend, and bodes well for a good season.
4/14/2014 2:24 pm
Oh, I’m gonna stop after this because if your response was taking it down a notch - accusing Varitek of doping and relying on Deadspin - then we are already in the depths.
And, I’m not be a hypocrite. I didn’t start this by suggesting Ortiz is tainted. You did. I just asked you to step back and recognize the dirt is everywhere.
The list I gave you above is what you will find on MLB’s site. I didn’t just pull it out of thin air. Show me Sox players doing time under the Joint Drug Agreement. You can’t, there are none.
The point is it is sour grapes for you to say the Sox titles are “built on steroids.” That is completely absurd. And, you are the one being sanctimonious here. You taint all Sox fans with the same brush. That’s crazy.
Should I go through all the Yankee stuff and suggest career years are tainted? I won’t because that is as specious as what you’ve done above. If you want to taint the Red Sox titles then do the same with the Yankee titles since 1999 when Clemens joined because your argument is guilt by association. Or any other teams titles for that matter. But, that’s crazy. I mean how many World Series teams are victorious because numerous players had career years? I’d venture to guess too many to count.
Again, I never wanted to talk about steroids. You just kept stirring the pot intimating things about Ortiz and the Sox and then just stepping away. That’s not right. And, it hypocritcal for you to say the Yankees are above this fray.
I love baseball and I really don’t care about the steroids. It was what it was. I believe a whole lot of players indulged, on every team, but I’m not undermining the accomplishments of those teams. I wish you’d stop doing that to the Red Sox.
Any great success the Yankees had in the steroid era is also tainted so please get off your high horse.
We can certainly take this off line. I’m sure your readers have no interest in my outrage.
4/14/2014 2:35 pm
I think that the real story here is that the Red Sox/Yankees rivalry is finally heating up again after a few years of people being sick of it. Why is the rivalry coming back? Well, I think Yankees fans are realizing that the Red Sox really will be a franchise on equal footing for the foreseeable future. Hell, “equal” may even be generous to the Yankees - over the past 10 years, the Sox have won 3 World Series and the Yankees “just” 1. That’s the story - what do Red Sox fans have to be *worried* about when any postseason success this year would be more gravy??
4/14/2014 3:27 pm
Chris-
Let me address this point:
—The point is it is sour grapes for you to say the Sox titles are “built on steroids.” That is completely absurd. —
I mean, no, it isn’t absurd; it’s not even close to absurd. Ortiz and Ramirez were the heart of those Red Sox teams and their greatest offensive contributors—by a lot. So whether they were juicing matters.
(By the way, do you have a link for that MLB list? I can’t find anything on mlb.com.)
Mad@er, I think that’s a fair point. Just speaking personally, I happen to like that the Sox are good again; it does heat up the rivalry, and it makes for more interesting baseball. And believe it or not, there’s a lot about the Sox and the way they’ve been run over the past decade or so that I really admire.
Let us all hope that the steroids era really is behind us so that we can focus on the important stuff….
4/14/2014 5:36 pm
As this thread proves, the real tragedy of the steroids era is that no one believes that any accomplishment, the ones that we used to marvel at, can be anything but steroid related. I’m not just talking the 70 home run a year variety. No hitter? Must be steroids. 40 home runs? Steroids. Stole home? Steroids. It’s truly a shame and all of them — from Barry Bonds on down — are to blame for deeply damaging the game. Shame on all of them
4/14/2014 6:56 pm
I mostly agree with that, Anon. But I would add one important, and hopefully conciliatory, caveat: Not the stealing home part. I loved Jacoby Ellsbury’s play against, yes, Andy Pettite. Just great old-time baseball, and nothing to do with steroids-any fan of the game had to appreciate that move.