With Polanski, It’s the Libertines vs. the Ellen Jamesians
Posted on September 30th, 2009 in Uncategorized | 32 Comments »
The debate in the Roman Polanski affair is getting all hot and bothered.
Here’s Kate Harding in Salon reminding us that, as she says about 15 times in her article, Roman Polanski raped a child.
….let’s take a moment to recall that according to the victim’s grand jury testimony, Roman Polanski instructed her to get into a jacuzzi naked, refused to take her home when she begged to go, began kissing her even though she said no and asked him to stop; performed cunnilingus on her as she said no and asked him to stop; put his penis in her vagina as she said no and asked him to stop; asked if he could penetrate her anally, to which she replied, “No,” then went ahead and did it anyway, until he had an orgasm.
Here’s a paradox I’ve kind of wondered about: The anti-Polanski forces emphasize the victim’s stature as a child and the fact that she was “drugged,” but at the same time accord complete credibility to the girl’s testimony. We’ve all seen how the testimony of children is often unreliable (imagine the circumstances)—and I’m not impeaching the girl’s character one bit to say that perhaps one shouldn’t take her testimony at face value. (Lots of people, for example, are taking aim at McKenzie Phillip’s recall of something that happened when she was similarly under the influence and considerably older.) I’m not saying she made the whole thing up, far from it—just wondering if there was ever any controversy or debate about the details, because some of those details are so viscerally unpleasant.
(And to those of you who will say, “But Polanski pled guilty!”, one can imagine why he wouldn’t want to get in a fight over details.)
Meanwhile, on the other side of the fence, here’s the Washington Post’s Anne Applebaum (full disclosure: Anne and I were college classmates and once wrote a story together):
Here are some of the facts: Polanski’s crime — statutory rape of a 13-year-old girl — was committed in 1977. The girl, now 45, has said more than once that she forgives him, that she can live with the memory, that she does not want him to be put back in court or in jail, and that a new trial will hurt her husband and children. There is evidence of judicial misconduct in the original trial. There is evidence that Polanski did not know her real age. Polanski, who panicked and fled the U.S. during that trial, has been pursued by this case for 30 years, during which time he has never returned to America, has never returned to the United Kingdom., has avoided many other countries, and has never been convicted of anything else. He did commit a crime, but he has paid for the crime in many, many ways: In notoriety, in lawyers’ fees, in professional stigma. He could not return to Los Angeles to receive his recent Oscar. He cannot visit Hollywood to direct or cast a film.
I don’t find this all that convincing; to me the only essential argument is that bit about judicial misconduct.
Already this is degenerating into a fiasco that seems even less likely to effect justice than the original trial. The girl (now woman) doesn’t want it, the mother doesn’t want it, Polanski obviously doesn’t want it. What possible good can come of it?
32 Responses
9/30/2009 10:57 am
What seems indisputable, not least because he plead guilty to it, is that Polanski had sex with a 13 year old girl. Because that is statutory rape, the “details” don’t matter, including Polanski’s rather dubious claim that he didn’t know how young she was. If the suggestion is that the particular circumstances — maybe she “wanted it”, maybe she didn’t actually put up a fight, maybe she didn’t say “no” as many times as she claims, maybe the cunnilingis was made up — might excuse the crime, I think not. However, the emphasis on evidence of judicial misconduct or a miscarriage of justice is being taken too far. The central predicate of the legal system is jurisdiction — and to raise a legal claim (including a challenge to a court’s actions) one must submit to the court’s jurisdiction. Polanski is caught in the pincers of that fact, but it is — unfortunately or not — of his own making. His return may or may not establish whether there was judicial error, but I doubt it. I actually find the totality of circumstances here, the fact of so many years having passed, of the victim not wishing to pursue prosecution, of the evidence that politics played a role in the judge’s behavior, of the non-penal ways he has paid for the crime, more weighty than the legal issues. Prosecutors, like all lawyers, are first and foremost to do justice.
9/30/2009 11:00 am
To me, the same people who are screaming “he raped a child!” are the ones who screaming “you want to kill my grandpa! no public health option!” in town hall meetings and the same ones who acted like Hilary suggested killing Obama. Most people like to scream stupid epitaphs. I’m so over the screaming crazy people.
What’s wrong with forgiveness, anyway? Why this outpouring of we must forever punish the guilty? It’s sick.
9/30/2009 11:15 am
None of the lurid details make any difference in this connection. The guy fled the country instead of facing the music and/or appealing, and generally doing what people do if they feel ill-served in the justice system. Pleading guilty doesn’t put one in the strongest position to claim that one has been somehow robbed, but Polanski certainly had avenues to make that claim. He decided to skip town, and the justice system has to take that very seriously.
Incidentally, “Applebaum is married to Poland’s foreign minister, who is lobbying for Polanski’s release on bail.” (newsbusters website). You made disclosure of your relationship with her, but she didn’t bother to mention this conflict of interest.
I call that an undermining of credibility much more serious than being 13.
9/30/2009 11:16 am
The difference between saying “You raped a child” and “You want to kill my grandpa” is that one claim is true and described a crime actually committed, and the other is probably false and certainly speculative.
Sigh.
9/30/2009 11:22 am
But SE, it’s still screaming. It doesn’t help….
Sigh.
9/30/2009 11:47 am
Some times a scream is what is required. I say his nasty old ass should fry.
And RB if you call people Ellen Jamesian when they say a man should pay for rape you are entering the neighborhood of people who scream grampa-killer when someone proposes paying doctors for end-of-life counseling.
Ellen Jamesians mutilated themselves to protest rape. We just want plain old justice.
The fry part is metaphorical. Prison would do.
9/30/2009 12:00 pm
“We just want plain old justice.”
And who the hell are you to mete out justice? Some people take what happened to them to protest what happens to someone else. If this girl is happy with her JUSTICE then who are we to say NO, I NEED MORE! That borders on torture. And certainly has nothing to do with justice.
She has asked us to STOP! And I believe Ellen Jamesian did TOO!
9/30/2009 12:24 pm
While I agree with SE’s post, another point needs to be brought to bear about Polanski’s “punishment.” The man did not suffer in exile in Siberia; he was in Paris with his millions in France. The facts are indisputable: Not only did he rape a girl, he was a fugitive (regardless of the plea bargain that never passed).
I agree with an earlier post that sometimes the punishment for the predator is not just to help compensate the victim, to remind society as a whole that such behavior will not be tolerated or excused.
Our society often adopts a halo effect not only for beauty, but also for genius. Human history has been disappointing, if not downright horrifying, because of “such genius.”
Since the Polanski debate is getting tired, here’s another story about the U Penn Wharton Professor who also got away with pedophilia for years:
/www.kansascity.com/440/story/1478915.html
9/30/2009 12:29 pm
He pled “guilty.” Under our system of justice, he has a debt to pay.
9/30/2009 1:05 pm
That is RIGHT! HE PLED GUILTY! That doesn’t sound like a man who was trying to run from responsibility. That sounds like a man who was trying to do the right thing. He paid the girl money, admitted what he did PUBLICLY and apologized.
(I’d like the people in my life to do as much and I would be happy.) Most people don’t do that. You know when his wife was slaughtered by the Mason family the media blamed him. and long after they caught the Manson family they kept blaming him. The guy tried to work it out, got fed up with the media and JUSTICE and fled.
We LOVE as a society to blame and beat and be wronged and punish! It really has got to stop. Where is the limit?!
9/30/2009 2:20 pm
It stops when the legal system has run its course. The rule of law is pretty important, you know. Also, I am not aware of him having apologized for the rape, though whether or not he did so is incidental to the legal issues at hand.
Maybe it’s because I don’t watch cable news, but judging from this blog, the people shouting and hyperventilating about this seem to be defenders of Polanski rather than defenders of his prosecution.
9/30/2009 3:37 pm
“I know that he regrets it. I feel sufficiently apologized to. I would place a bet that if he had it to do over again, it would have had a completely different outcome. I forgive him. It was a long time ago. It’s been a long hard road for both of us, so I have no hard feelings.” - Samatntha Geimer, Polanski’s rape victime
9/30/2009 5:13 pm
Not sure if anyone has raised this yet, but does anyone see a similarity here to all the priestly pedophilia? Because the church paid some victims, does this mean that the guilty priests have paid the price? Can all truly be forgiven? Or bought off?
9/30/2009 5:29 pm
Forgiveness is something we give to ourselves more than to the guilty party. People need to let things go more.
9/30/2009 5:40 pm
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/09/29/roman-polanski-what-if-he-were-father-roman/
9/30/2009 5:54 pm
Not to be a nitpicker, but that doesn’t even say he actually apologized, just that she “felt apologized to,” whatever that means. Has he himself ever been quoted apologizing publicly, which you suggested he had done at 1:05pm?
Again, this has nothing to do with the legal case, but I’m curious.
9/30/2009 9:57 pm
What the NYTimes calls a “bizarre twist”: ““I’ve got to tell you, I lied,” David Wells, the former prosecutor, said in a phone interview on Wednesday. “I tried to butter up this story to make me look better.””
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/01/us/01wells.html
9/30/2009 10:33 pm
Higgly piggly poo. Lets talk about rape. Hooray for jesus!
10/1/2024 7:05 am
It’s really not about Polansky or the girl. Now that he was caught we just can’t let him go without paying for what he did. If we do a lot of other jerks will think that it’s acceptable to have sex with a child. Richard, we know that a lot of guys love to fantasize about having sex with a Lolita… probably you included. Get over it!!! It’s NOT okay to have sex with a minor in any circumstance.
10/1/2024 10:13 am
Whoa - cool down there Cristina. You can make your point about Lolitas without fantasizing about what Richard (or anyone else) must be fantasizing about.
10/1/2024 10:17 am
Yeah, actually, I agree. That was a bit over the line. (And, just for the record, not true.)
10/1/2024 11:35 am
In my own defense, I hasten to point out that there is a line between fantasizing about a Lolita and having sex with one. That is one line I have never crossed!
10/1/2024 12:32 pm
It’s interesting how loud this fight has gotten, but it comes down to basically one issue. There are certain crimes that are heinous enough that they have to be punished, no matter how long it’s been since the original crime and what the other circumstances are. Some of us feel that a middle-aged man having sex with a thirteen-year-old girl is one of those crimes, and some of us don’t. It just seems odd that people are taking it so personally, since it seems to be a relatively small difference in values.
10/1/2024 1:05 pm
I was with you until the last clause of the last sentence: viz., “it seems to be a relatively small difference in values.” I think the sentence would read better this way: “People appear to be taking this personally because of this clear difference in values.”
10/1/2024 1:19 pm
“I’m not saying she made the whole thing up, far from it—just wondering if there was ever any controversy or debate about the details, because some of those details are so viscerally unpleasant.”
As Cristina was trying to indicate - regardless of the details of how this happened, it DID happen. And again it’s NOT okay to have sex with a minor in any circumstance. Pleasant details or unpleasant details, Richard. So quibbling over the victim’s version of the story is a minor point. To us. To her, I’m sure it wasn’t. He had sex with her. It was wrong. If she had a great time, it would still be wrong, because she was a child and the balance of power is therefore skewed. A consenting child is very different from a consenting adult. But it doesn’t seem like she did have a great time at all.
10/1/2024 2:15 pm
All in favor of protecting children from harm without regard to the sticky details, raise your hands right now!
10/1/2024 2:22 pm
“Some of us feel that a middle-aged man having sex with a thirteen-year-old girl is one of those crimes, and some of us don’t.” Who does not think that is a crime that has to be punished? Raise your hand and explain.
10/1/2024 3:21 pm
To Lolita:
I would suggest everyone agrees it is a crime — in the legal sense. The debate, though, is really about morality — and how morality should, in turn, influence a judicial result. So, your question is better phrased as: who does not believe that it is morally inexcusable regardless of circumstances for a middle-aged man to have sex with a teenager? Lets presume that no one raises their hand. But lets then ask your real question: who does not believe that a middle-aged man who has sex with a teenager must regardless of circumstances receive a severe penalty for this crime? And then lets ask the tricky question: who does not believe that determining what is sufficiently “severe” in such circumstances is a simple matter on which all reasonable people must agree?
10/1/2024 4:25 pm
I would suggest you stop picking nits, LMP. I want to know who does not believe a middle-aged man who has sex with a child must receive a penalty for this crime. Nothing tricky about it.
If Polanksi did it “by accident,” he is nevertheless responsible. If he could show that he did in good faith attempt to verify her age and that he received confirmation that she was not a child, I might be persuaded of a lesser penalty (skipping town and living abroad does not qualify as a lesser). That would also apply only if a jury acquited him of the rape charge. If he was convicted of rape he would deserve a severe penalty regardless of the age of the victim.
10/1/2024 5:10 pm
Your argument — i.e., your rhetorical question — is a classic Straw Man. You’ve characterized your opponents arguments as you like then set up a question designed to knock them down. What you’re ignoring, again, is the real thrust of your query, which in my view is to attack anyone who could suggest that there might be mitigating circumstances here notwithstanding the commission of what surely everyone can agree is a crime that “ought” to be punished. You like bright lines, that is clear. Here’s a question for you: what mitigating factors (if any) should a prosecutor or court consider — either with respect to continued prosecution, plea bargaining or sentencing after a trial — if Polanski’ appears in court to face this charge?
10/1/2024 8:18 pm
I’m with LMP-who has understood my point much better than I explained it-on this one. The question isn’t about whether or not a middle-aged man should be punished for having sex with a 13-year-old, it’s whether that should still happen no matter how long ago how it happened, how the victim feels about it, and what the other circumstances are. I think that Polanski got off with a light sentence and deserves further punishment, but I don’t think that’s so painfully obvious that anyone who doesn’t agree with me is somehow morally flawed. That’s why I said that I thought it was a relatively small difference in values; there are a lot of mitigating circumstances here (totally unrelated to Polanski’s art), and it’s easy for me to understand why some people think he shouldn’t be punished further. Polanski’s celebrity is a huge problem here. Some people are more sympathetic to him because he’s a great artist while others don’t want to see him get away with something because he’s rich and famous.
10/1/2024 8:29 pm
Higgly Piggly Poo. Everyone throwing stones lives in a glass house. Butch up bitches if you want to go the distance!